That Will Smith and Chris Rock thing

[Melbourne Guy]

The degree of injury.

We'll never be of like mind on this, @Baluncore, so I'll bow out, but I do appreciate your frank discussion. And I pray that you're never on the receiving end of the 'real world' you posit, because random acts of violence always leave their imprint, irrespective that you might feel the injury is slight.

 

[Melbourne Guy]

For cryin' out loud, Smith had to cross a half a football field in front of a million viewers to "defend her"*.

*how this helped anything I have no idea.

I haven't seen much discussion of that aspect, @DaveC426913, but it crossed my mind that Jada Pinkett Smith is certainly able to stand up for herself. She hardly seems passive in any aspect of her life! And she has recently publicly talked about having alopecia and her loving her “bald head” so Will's motivation is even murkier than I had assumed.

 

[Isopod]

Count me in.

By the way, regarding celebrity and fame in general, here's a celebrity with a HUGE amount of integrity and distance. The talented UK musician Robert Smith (frontman of The Cure). He is one of my heroes both because of his music AND of his genuine personality.

Listen to what he says in the interview about fame and other things here (@3m54s) and here (@14m31s) and here (@15m27s). The whole video is fun to watch too, he is very witty.

Good interview. I liked The Cure's single "Boys Don't Cry", the lead singer seems pretty down to Earth. I'm more into genres like metal & kpop, but the interview kind of reminds me of these ones where some legendary rock/metal stars spoke with incredibly frank openness about their lives:

"Unexpectedly Honest Answers to Interview Questions"



"Musicians tell the truth about American Idol"



Unlike a lot of other types of celebrities, I feel that rock stars tend to tell it like it is.

I can't stand celebrity culture but I also feel like it taps into a very primordial part of our brains which even the best of us can find difficult to resist sometimes (I have no real interest in the Kardashians or Katie Price but despite this, in the past 2 weeks I still found their names entering into my conversations). I wonder what it is that makes it so difficult to avoid giving these people attention sometimes.

 

[Jarvis323]

Good interview. I liked The Cure's single "Boys Don't Cry", the lead singer seems pretty down to Earth. I'm more into genres like metal & kpop, but the interview kind of reminds me of these ones where some legendary rock/metal stars spoke with incredibly frank openness about their lives:

"Unexpectedly Honest Answers to Interview Questions"



"Musicians tell the truth about American Idol"



Unlike a lot of other types of celebrities, I feel that rock stars tend to tell it like it is.

I can't stand celebrity culture but I also feel like it taps into a very primordial part of our brains which even the best of us can find difficult to resist sometimes (I have no real interest in the Kardashians or Katie Price but despite this, in the past 2 weeks I still found their names entering into my conversations). I wonder what it is that makes it so difficult to avoid giving these people attention sometimes.

I have to disagree about American Idol. Sure I see the parts I don't like, such as how it is heavily produced, pop music focused, and the way they try to mold the performers into a sort of cookie cutter model of pop music success.

At the same time, those are real people coming on the show with real dreams and real talent, and this gives them a platform to present their work to the world, at a time when it's incredibly difficult to get such an opportunity or get noticed otherwise. And many of them are very good; better than Dave Grohl, who let's face it is a pretty mediocre (pretty much pop) musician who got a lucky break. Without shows like American Idol in today's day and age, the music industry is just more exclusive than it would be otherwise. Would Bob Dylan win a singing contest? Sure in the 1960's he might have. Would he now? Probably not. Had he been on the show would people have heard him play, yes.

 

[Isopod]

I have to disagree about American Idol. Sure I see the parts I don't like, such as how it is heavily produced, pop music focused, and the way they try to mold the performers into a sort of cookie cutter model of pop music success.

At the same time, those are real people coming on the show with real dreams and real talent, and this gives them a platform to present their work to the world, at a time when it's incredibly difficult to get such an opportunity or get noticed otherwise. And many of them are very good; better than Dave Grohl, who let's face it is a pretty mediocre (pretty much pop) musician who got a lucky break. Without shows like American Idol in today's day and age, the music industry is just more exclusive than it would be otherwise. Would Bob Dylan win a singing contest? Sure in the 1960's he might have. Would he now? Probably not. Had he been on the show would people have heard him play, yes.

I don't believe that the purpose of American Idol is to provide opportunities or a platform to people, but is instead to provide entertainment to the massed and to help keep the careers of people like Simon Cowell relevant (who would be non-entities outside of their respective industries were it not for shows like this). The show is incredibly artificial (so many things have already been decided for people before they even get up on the stage) and its just as famous for its controversies as it is making anyone successful.

I would have to disagree that the music industry is more exclusive than it used to be (or that American Idol makes any palpable difference to opportunities in the industry); if anything, the rise of platforms like TikTok and YouTube have lead to real fame and careers for many people (for example Doja Cat) who might not otherwise have had such opportunities if they were made to go through the traditional routes only. The routes to fame in the past were incredibly limited but now there are endless new platforms which reach out to far larger (& much more international) audiences.

I wouldn't say that David Grohl got a "lucky break"; he was genuinely successful in Nirvana and post-Kurt Cobains death, forged an incredibly successful band (Foo Fighters) which has remained relevant & successful to this day (they were in the midst of doing a sell-out international tour when drummed Taylor Smith suddenly died the other day). "Lucky break" makes it sound just like that (he got lucky) but if he was simply just lucky (as opposed to be genuinely talented & hardworking), then he would not have forged such an incredibly successful career for himself that's been lasting well into his middle age. You call his music "Pretty much pop" like that makes him less of a musician, when he's up there with his band, writing lyrics and touring etc like the best of them (having less metal sound does not make you less of an artist).

 

[Jarvis323]

I don't believe that the purpose of American Idol is to provide opportunities or a platform to people, but instead to provide entertainment to the mass and help keep the careers of people like Simon Cowell relevant (who would be non-entities to the public outside of their industries were it not for shows like this). The show is incredibly artificial (so many things have already been decided for people before they even get up on stage) and its just as famous for its controversies as it is making anyone successful.

We don't have to agree. But whatever its purpose is, I've seen more talent and better performances by contestants on the show than I have heard coming from the industry established performers in the same genres.

The main thing is, at the end of the day, real people with talent go on stage and perform.

I would have to disagree that the music industry is more exclusive than it used to be (or that American Idol makes any palpable difference to opportunities in the industry); if anything, the rise of platforms like TikTok and YouTube have lead to real fame and careers for many people (for example Doja Cat) who might not otherwise have had such opportunities if they were made to go through the traditional routes only. The routes to fame in the past were incredibly limited but now there are endless new platforms which reach out to far larger (& much more international) audiences.

Maybe to an extent, but with this comes hundreds of millions of musicians competing for attention using memes, clickbait, and sexy imagery to try to get noticed. Some people go viral, not everyone can. And those platforms can be pretty toxic as well.

 

[ergospherical]

Meme still slaps. As soon as he gets off the ship she knows what's going to happen.

 

[pinball1970]

I feel a bit guilty for starting this. I accidentally posted a vid on the jokes page so a mod moved it here. No idea you guys were so interested in celebrity culture! (Joke)
Anyway one thing that has interested me is the analysis via body language and for those guys/biology guys like Jim and Bill who are interested here is a follow up to the original video.
I like the fact this guy is open to criticism and some of his conclusions could be taken other ways.
They use some of these techniques in interrogation of suspects so I really do like the analytical side to this.

 

[Hamiltonian]

 

[BillTre]

I feel a bit guilty for starting this. I accidentally posted a vid on the jokes page so a mod moved it here. No idea you guys were so interested in celebrity culture! (Joke)
Anyway one thing that has interested me is the analysis via body language and for those guys/biology guys like Jim and Bill who are interested here is a follow up to the original video.
I like the fact this guy is open to criticism and some of his conclusions could be taken other ways.
They use some of these techniques in interrogation of suspects so I really do like the analytical side to this.

I agree @pinball1970, I think this guy really makes a lot of sense and I find the subject quite interesting.

 

[kyphysics]

I don't think this was staged. Will Smith's apology and resignation from the Academy was extremely emotional. I almost cried reading it. I think he's genuinely sorry and this is something that will hurt him possibly for the rest of his professional career. That video will be played everywhere and all the time in association with his name. No one would want that. He'll lose tons of endorsement money and has to live with the backlash forever.

 

[skyshrimp]

I think Will did it to be the main focus of the event. It was a show of desperation to be in the spotlight. He probably didn’t plan it, but saw his moment and seized it.

All the emo crying he displayed afterwards was exactly the same thing.

Cringeworthy stuff.

 

[Drakkith]

I'm almost amazed at how quick people are to judge someone they don't know in a situation they weren't part of. Almost as if everyone conveniently forgot all the times they've done things they later wish they hadn't. I suppose that's human nature, though. Lord knows I'm not immune to it.

 

[DaveC426913]

I'm almost amazed at how quick people are to judge someone they don't know in a situation they weren't part of. Almost as if everyone conveniently forgot all the times they've done things they later wish they hadn't. I suppose that's human nature, though. Lord knows I'm not immune to it.

Assault and battery (from 47 camera angles, with ten million witnesses) is not that complicated to judge. Not "knowing" him doesn't factor in.

I've been on the planet 5 years longer than Will Smith. I've made mistakes in my mortgage and my parenting technique - but I've never committed premeditated* assault and battery on someone who made a tasteless joke.

* he had to cross a half a football field, in front of ten million people! Just how long does it take for his brain to rein in his impulses?

 

[Drakkith]

Assault and battery (from 47 camera angles, with ten million witnesses) is not that complicated to judge. Not "knowing" him doesn't factor in.

Of course it's complicated to judge. People have been found not guilty of similar crimes in similar circumstances. We've all heard or read about court cases that turned out completely different than expected. The two could go to court right now and no one here would be able to confidently predict the outcome. If it wasn't complicated to judge this thread would be very different.

I also find your use of legal terms a bit premature considering he hasn't been convicted of anything yet.

I've been on the planet 5 years longer than Will Smith. I've made mistakes in my mortgage and my parenting technique - but I've never committed premeditated* assault and battery on someone who made a tasteless joke.

In many places I've lived, slapping the crap out of someone who made a joke at the expense of your wife would almost be expected, not merely tolerated. I don't know what kind of environment Will Smith grew up in, but it wouldn't surprise me if similar things were expected of men.

* he had to cross a half a football field, in front of ten million people! Just how long does it take for his brain to rein in his impulses?

Not too long if we are to believe his apology later on. I've done stupid things that required a much, much longer time to play out and I'd bet you've been in a similar boat before.

 

[DaveC426913]

Of course it's complicated to judge. People have been found not guilty of similar crimes in similar circumstances. We've all heard or read about court cases that turned out completely different than expected. The two could go to court right now and no one here would be able to confidently predict the outcome. If it wasn't complicated to judge this thread would be very different.

But this is not a court case; there's no lawyers, no burden of proof to make; no evidence to pore over.

We all witnessed it. It is fact.

Will hit him.
It was planned at least ten seconds ahead of time.
He had to cross an auditorium to accomplish it.
It was done in anger.

That's judge-worthy by all with eyes.

I also find your use of legal terms a bit premature considering he hasn't been convicted of anything yet.

Whether it even goes to court - or if he is even charged - is irrelevant whether we can condemn him for the violence we witnessed.

What legal terms? Assault and battery? That's not a "legal term". He hit him. We saw it. That's battery. Full stop.

In many places I've lived, slapping the crap out of someone who made a joke at the expense of your wife would almost be expected, not merely tolerated.

Yes. So what? That doesn't mean it's acceptable in modern public society. We get to judge it as brutish and violent and unwarranted.

"In many places I've worked, we used to sexually harass our secretaries. It was expected. I want a free pass."
- Harvey Weinstein
*_{not a real quote}

I don't know what kind of environment Will Smith grew up in, but it wouldn't surprise me if similar things were expected of men.

Will Smith has no business playing the "rough childhood" card. "I'm worth 350 million dollars but I never outgrew my poor childhood." He has proven that he is not defined by his childhood, and he certainly knows better than to do what was once "expected of men".

Not too long if we are to believe his apology later on. I've done stupid things that required a much, much longer time to play out and I'd bet you've been in a similar boat before.

That does not make it OK what Smith did. How does that even follow?Note: I am not suggesting he be charged, prosecuted or sent to jail. I am saying we can absolutely judge what he did to Chris Rock as a totally unacceptable action - doubly-so given the civil context in which it occurred (it's not like the Smiths were caught alone in a dark alley with Rock brandishing a knife, or some other "self-defense extenuating circumstances").I don't quite get your stance. You're saying we shouldn't be so quick to judge, but are you suggesting there are circumstances to this specific incident that somehow makes such violence acceptable in this day and age?

 

[artis]

I hate to be the nerd or the party breaker in the room, but honestly I wouldn't have thought this is worth so much discussion.
Apart from some funny memes the overall event itself I find , well how should I put it, not worth my time.
Hollywood being Hollywood.
I bet there are hundreds of slaps happening on a daily basis, maybe there is even a metric webpage out there , some sort of "slap-o-meter" that makes a statistic of them.

As for the outcry, well really? Hollywood has done stuff way worse than this, I for one agree with @berkeman either staged or not (I myself think it wasn't staged) the Jussie Smollett case was way more important to discuss than this because there someone purposely added to the already high racial stigma simply to earn a better paycheck. Here it seems the only side effects are Will Smith having to apologize and Chris Rock getting more money.

If I may rant a little then I would wish to say that I hate today's artists in general, mostly because they have transcended simple art and sometimes not even talent matters anymore, what matters most is fame and fortune. Everyone wants to be a superstar and they only make superhero movies (which are mostly artistically mediocre at best, the script sucks and the CGI does the heavy lifting instead). And then they get treated like their princes and monarchs in a society that supposedly hates monarchy. Just doesn't make sense.
They act and then they do everything else in between and in the end of the day they push their opinion onto others as if theirs is better and more informed.
I mostly have to cringe when I watch interviews with actors where they give their opinion on everything from complicated political matters to science etc.
It mostly ends similarly to how Whoopi Goldberg said that idiotic thing about Holocaust not being about race on the View. And of course she got away with it and I'm not a supporter of the leftist cancel culture myself, in fact I hate it and I think everyone should be forgiven their mistakes but the point is Whoopi got away with a uninformed statement while many others in similar situation would have been absolutely obliterated. She got away because she is part of Hollywood.

Anyway , for those that agree with me - slap in the face, I mean high five , and for those that don't , slap in the face...
Please don't be offended.PS. Oh and, keep my nickname out of your fuc*** keyboard...

 

[symbolipoint]

Moderator's note: Thread split off. You guys take your fight outside (the jokes thread)

Split off? Where is the other part?

 

[DaveC426913]

...I wouldn't have thought this is worth so much discussion.

Agree.

And yet ... here we all are (including you) offering our 22 cents.

We each of us like to think we are above it all, but we aren't really, are we?

 

[pinball1970]

Agree.

And yet ... here we all are (including you) offering our 22 cents.

We each of us like to think we are above it all, but we aren't really, are we?

Dave there is some interesting biology. Psychology, physiology.

 

[pinball1970]

Split off? Where is the other part?

I posted a joke in the wrong place. I am very sorry about that !

 

[DaveC426913]

Dave there is some interesting biology. Psychology, physiology.

Yes, there was a whole sidebar about that earlier.

It may be fascinating as an academic exercise, and perhaps may shed light on the ... bona fidelity** of the incident, I'm not sure what it informs about the discussion.

** ^{I just made that up}

 

[artis]

We each of us like to think we are above it all, but we aren't really, are we?

I'll admit I sometimes take a sneak peek into the very movies I hate just to remind myself why I hate them.
As for above , well we are all human sure I've made my fair share of public mistakes.

 

[pinball1970]

Yes, there was a whole sidebar about that earlier.

It may be fascinating as an academic exercise, and perhaps may shed light on the ... bona fidelity** of the incident, I'm not sure what it informs about the discussion.

** ^{I just made that up}

A side bar from the tangent? We need a new word for that

 

[Jarvis323]

The slap was wrong and probably hurt. But the injury inflicted on Will, which we can all take part in, could be quite severe. Together we have a lot of power that we wield. We can trash a whole planet, drive a young singer into a mental hospital, ruin Will Smith's life. I just don't feel the need to contribute.

 

[DaveC426913]

I just don't feel the need to contribute.

The fight against the vestiges of toxic masculinity (and its cousin, rape culture) will last a long time yet. "I was raised to be a 'real' man. It's not my fault." is a part of toxic masculinity.

That's when I'll stop.

 

[Jarvis323]

The fight against the vestiges of toxic masculinity (and its cousin, rape culture) will last a long time yet. "I was raised to be a 'real' man. It's not my fault." is a part of toxic masculinity.

That's when I'll stop.

Condemning it is fine. But in the bigger picture, there is also toxic internet culture and cyber-bullying, and the like, which inflicts serious psychological damage on its victims, and can even take a life.

 

[Drakkith]

What legal terms? Assault and battery? That's not a "legal term". He hit him. We saw it. That's battery. Full stop.

I disagree, but I'll drop this part of the discussion if you will. Arguing over terminology is... frustrating. Even when you're right.

Will Smith has no business playing the "rough childhood" card. "I'm worth 350 million dollars but I never outgrew my poor childhood." He has proven that he is not defined by his childhood, and he certainly knows better than to do what was once "expected of men".

I never said anything about his upbringing being 'rough'. Mine certainly wasn't and yet most of my family would expect me to defend my wife in some fashion if she were insulted. Especially by another man.

I don't quite get your stance. You're saying we shouldn't be so quick to judge, but are you suggesting there are circumstances to this specific incident that somehow makes such violence acceptable in this day and age?

Some amount of violence is absolutely acceptable, even today. Why would you think it isn't? Many of our heroes, in history and in fiction, use violence. Many video games have violence. We let our children pretend to beat the crap out of people when they pretend to be ninjas, cowboys, wrestlers, or whatever.

As an analogy, let me use some of my military experiences. In the Air Force, when taking a formal test or answering questions asked by an inspector, you give the 'Air Force answer'. That is, the one that's taught by all the books and trainers and such. But that doesn't necessarily match what you actually would do in the real world.

Similarly, we are all taught that violence is bad and we try teach our kids that. Or at least that's what we say. In reality most of us would absolutely overlook an incident if we think the violence is justified. Yeah, I'll agree that Will Smith shouldn't have slapped Chris Rock. But that's mostly my Air Force answer.

 

[DaveC426913]

I never said anything about his upbringing being 'rough'.

I am not sure how to interpret this any other way:

... slapping the crap out of someone who made a joke at the expense of your wife would almost be expected, not merely tolerated. I don't know what kind of environment Will Smith grew up in, but it wouldn't surprise me if similar things were expected of men.

If one grew up such that it is expected for words to be met with violence, that's someone who has not been prepared for polite society yet. Violence is a behavior that has gone uncorrected (for over five decades) so as not to be a menace in public. After all, they throw people in jail for such things!

This is not some chance encounter on a street corner where there's no rules. There is an expectation that - when you are invited to an event of professionals, and you are all there in celebration, under one roof, cheek-by-jowl - everyone can be reasonably safe from physical harm and mayhem.

Mine certainly wasn't and yet most of my family would expect me to defend my wife in some fashion if she were insulted. Especially by another man.

With a fist?? (I hope you correct your family's destructive "expectations" of you!)

Some amount of violence is absolutely acceptable, even today. Why would you think it isn't? Many of our heroes, in history and in fiction, use violence.

This is a red herring. We are not talking about generic or contextual violence. We are taking about this incident, and what ten million people witnessed happening. I have nothing to say about what happens in some hypothetical military incident. None of us do.

Look at this incident. What ten million of us witnessed. What is fact.

But that's mostly my Air Force answer.

Then you're not really volunteering your honest view. There is a difference between

• I understand the reason why X did Y

and

• It was acceptable for X to do Y, because reasons.

 

[Klystron]

As an analogy, let me use some of my military experiences. In the Air Force, when taking a formal test or answering questions asked by an inspector, you give the 'Air Force answer'. That is, the one that's taught by all the books and trainers and such. But that doesn't necessarily match what you actually would do in the real world.

I understand 'Air Force answer' and that majority mindset and do not judge. I gave honest ethical answers as best I could. Honesty caused trouble and some hardship but kept me centered. Definitely a miniscule minority follow this path.

Sometimes social lies constitute the kindest response, but not when it counts. I recollect a USAF test in basic with ~250 participants. Everyone lied except me and one other person according to the post-test interview. I imagine most Vietnam war era veterans know the question.

I once struck a guy who said something disrespectful about a girl friend but I was an immature teenager and immediately apologized for hurting him.

Spoiler: The question where nearly everybody lied.

Something like, "Have you ever drunk alcohol outside the home, ever used marijuana, been anywhere where alcohol or marijuana were used, known anyone who ever drank alcohol under the legal age or known anyone who ever used marijuana?"

248 people either lied or only knew strict teetotalers. In 1970's America.

 

[DaveC426913]

Was it a legit question, or was it a test of honesty?

^{(The logician's answer: Yes.)}

 

[Drakkith]

If one grew up such that it is expected for words to be met with violence, that's someone who has not been prepared for polite society yet.

Your version of polite society maybe. I know plenty of very nice, very polite people who wouldn't hesitate to lay hands on you if you insulted them or their family the right way. I'm not saying it's right, nor am I saying it's wrong. I'm just saying that the society you imagine we're all in is in reality a bunch of different societies that people spend various amounts of time in.

I am not sure how to interpret this any other way:

I certainly wouldn't interpret it as 'rough'. That's more like growing up poor and in a bad neighborhood, or in a family with an abuser, in my opinion.

Then you're not really volunteering your honest view.

Sure I am. I honestly do think Will Smith could have handled things better. He absolutely overreacted. He could have done nothing, or talked with Chis Rock after the show, or shouted something out instead of getting up and slapping him. But I also feel, in some part of my brain, that Smith's actions were justified, at least a little. Especially when I see his wife's reaction at Rock's joke. Call it a clash of societies if you will.

Where I'm from, you don't screw with another man's wife. Period.

Am I justifying his actions? Perhaps. I certainly can't say I'd never do something similar if my GF was really bothered by something someone said about her. Especially if I just laughed at what was said before realizing it had hurt her.

 

[Bystander]

you give the 'Air Force answer'.

"The right way, the wrong way, the Army way, and MY way," to quote one of my first sergeants?

 

[nuuskur]

As I see it, whatever reasons for it, mission accomplished - people are talking about it.

 

[pinball1970]

As I see it, whatever reasons for it, mission accomplished - people are talking about it.

It was a mistake too.
I accidently put the post in jokes and was only interested in the analysis of the body language!