Thread Killer Champions: Franzbear & Moonbear

[mattmns]

I can see it fine, and I like it

 

[Moonbear]

As long as some folks here appreciate my sense of humor.

 

[dextercioby]

I appreciate especially BAD HUMOR.Yours included...

Daniel.

 

[Moonbear]

I appreciate especially BAD HUMOR.Yours included...

Daniel.

Then you must be just splitting your sides laughing over Bart's comic links!

 

[mattmns]

I think MB has had it long enough.

 

[Moonbear]

I think MB has had it long enough.

No I haven't! I'm greedy, I want it forever, mine, all mine, only mine!

 

[dextercioby]

Then you must be just splitting your sides laughing over Bart's comic links!

As the matter of fact,they mke me cry.

Daniel.

 

[Moonbear]

As the matter of fact,they mke me cry.

Daniel.

They have that effect on many of us.

 

[Bartholomew]

Daniel cries at everything.

 

[Bartholomew]

Moonbear, you see the "humor in dadaism"? That's amazing... dadaism is a school of art that grew out of WWI and is concerned with meaninglessness.

 

[Artman]

Moonbear, you see the "humor in dadaism"? That's amazing... dadaism is a school of art that grew out of WWI and is concerned with meaninglessness.

Which they did through sarcasm and witty use of incongruity.

 

[Moonbear]

Moonbear, you see the "humor in dadaism"? That's amazing... dadaism is a school of art that grew out of WWI and is concerned with meaninglessness.

It was the artists essentially thumbing their noses at the art critics by purposely creating what they considered junk and laughing at the art critics and afficionados who were paying large amounts of money to buy "junk." It was never meant to be art. It's a great practical joke!

 

[Bartholomew]

No, which they did through random art containing no intended meaning. Personally I like the idea, though all I've ever known about it was a blurb in a textbook 5 years ago and a Wikipedia article just now.

 

[Bartholomew]

It's not a joke at all, it's a very serious endeavor. Dadaists believed that life is random and meaningless and tried to create "anti-art"--junk, but no more meaningless than anything else.

 

[Artman]

No, which they did through random art containing no intended meaning. Personally I like the idea, though all I've ever known about it was a blurb in a textbook 5 years ago and a Wikipedia article just now.

Do some more reading; she's right.

 

[Bartholomew]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dadaism

Dadaism is based in nihilism and cynicism.

 

[Artman]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dadaism

Dadaism is based in nihilism and cynicism.

Although they didn't really consider it a movement, they created some manefestos. This is from the first manefesto:

1. Dada is international in perspective and seeks to bridge differences, 2. Dada is antagonistic toward established society in the modern avant-garde, Bohemian tradition of the épater-le-bourgeios posture, and 3. Dada is a new tendency in art that seeks to change conventional attitudes and practices in aesthetics, society, and morality."
http://www-camil.music.uiuc.edu/Projects/EAM/Dadaism.html

Have you seen any of their "works." Such as the found object installation turning a urinal upsidedown. It didn't look like a urinal so just calling it art was sarcastic and incongruous. Look at some of the works.

 

[Moonbear]

Dada began as an anti-art movement, in the sense that it rejected the way art was appreciated and defined in contemporary art scenes. Founded in Zurich, Switzerland, the movement was a response to World War I. It had no unifying aesthetic characteristics but what brought together the Dadaists was that they shared a nihilistic attitude towards the traditional expectations of artists and writers. The word Dada literally means both "hobby horse" and "father", but was chosen at random more for the naive sound. What After finding its origins in Zurich, the Dada movement spread the Berlin, Cologne, Hanover, Paris, some parts of Russia, and New York city.

http://wwar.com/masters/movements/dadaism.html

The artists were generally fed-up with critics finding meaning in their work that wasn't there, so started to create junk. The entire point was to prove that people will find meaning even in something without meaning. And sure enough, people found meaning in it. The works they created had no intentional meaning. They slapped random things togethether with no thought, intended it to be ephemeral and to just prove a point to the critics, which clearly has been proven as it has not been ephemeral. That it is listed in art history texts as a style of art with some deep meaning is what makes it so funny.

 

[Moonbear]

Here's an even better site with a more thorough explanation of the Dada movement.
http://www.localcolorart.com/encyclopedia/Dadaism/

An anti-art movement?

According to its proponents, Dada was not art; it was anti-art. For everything that art stood for, Dada was to represent the opposite. Where art was concerned with aesthetics, Dada ignored them. If art is to have at least an implicit or latent message, Dada strives to have no meaning--interpretation of Dada is dependent entirely on the viewer. If art is to appeal to sensibilities, Dada offends. Perhaps it is then ironic that Dada is an influential movement in Modern art. Dada became a commentary on art and the world, thus becoming art itself.

Essentially, yes, the artists had a message, but the works they were displaying did not have any meaning. Taking those works and now displaying them as art is pretty much the equivalent of going out and collecting picket signs made by protestors and framing them as art. They are intended to send a message, but the sign itself is not meant as a work of art with any inherent value or meaning. If you want to read meaning into it, you can, but you fall into the very trap the Dada movement was protesting. Some things are not meant to have deeper meaning. The artists had a sense of humor in the way they protested and I enjoy that humor.

 

[Artman]

My comments are based on my own viewing of Dadaist works. Such things as the objects they chose, the titles they gave them, their own comments on their work. For instance, Marcel Duchamp sent his Large Glass installation called "The Bride Stripped Bare by her Suiters" to a show. It was cracked in transit. He said something to the effect of, "It is now complete." (I can't find the exact reference, and I'm too lazy to keep looking), seems like more of a sarcastic distain for order then a desire for nothingness. The piece includes some elaborate painting within the glass panels. Again, incongruity, especially in light of his reaction to the crack.

 

[Moonbear]

Oh, I remember learning about that in art history. It's one of the reasons I loved learning about Dadaism so much, especially after spending so much time finding all the symbolism in iconic Rennaissance paintings, and wondering if the artists really put all those symbols there on purpose or if we were just reading too deeply into it, it was so refreshing to hear even the artists themselves got tired of it.

 

[dextercioby]

Holy Moly!Is this thread hijacked,again...?Art??Dadaism??This thread? :!)

Daniel.

 

[Moonbear]

Aww, we're just giving the thread a little culture. Admit it Dex, the thread is getting all grown up and needs to become more worldly.

 

[Artman]

Holy Moly!Is this thread hijacked,again...?Art??Dadaism??This thread? :!)

Daniel.

Dex doesn't like our Dada discussion.

So anyway, I think that while the Dadaists were attempting to remove conscious thoughts of art in the creation of their art, they still seemed to use very deliberate choices to emphasise their dislike of contemporary art society.

 

[Moonbear]

Dex doesn't like our Dada discussion.

So anyway, I think that while the Dadaists were attempting to remove conscious thoughts of art in the creation of their art, they still seemed to use very deliberate choices to emphasise their dislike of contemporary art society.

Yep, you can't deny the symbolism of a urinal!

 

[dextercioby]

Yuck,what...?

Daniel.

 

[Moonbear]

Yuck,what...?

Daniel.

One of Marcel Duchamp's works, titled "Fountain."

It's actually a discussion on humor, not art, even if you can't tell that.

 

[SOS2008]

Okay, so back to the thread... Not only have I become a PF addict, but also I think I may be a dreaded "thread killer" --that's right—not just a “thread hijacker,” but an outright killer! How can I be sure? Acknowledgement is the first step in the 12-step program I hope...

 

[Bartholomew]

Moonbear, if the history books, encyclopedia articles, etc. generally say that dadaism springs from universal disillusionment and nihilism as products of WWI, don't you think that might give you a hint?

I think that what the Dadaists did just seems so strange to you that you can't accept that they weren't kidding.

Nihilism means no final values at all. Dadaist art, according to the nihilist Dadaists, is no more or less junk than anything else at all. They would not come to your conclusion that "haha, the million-dollar art is worthless, what a joke!" because to them everything is worthless.

 

[Moonbear]

Okay, so back to the thread... Not only have I become a PF addict, but also I think I may be a dreaded "thread killer" --that's right—not just a “thread hijacker,” but an outright killer! How can I be sure? Acknowledgement is the first step in the 12-step program I hope...

I've noticed, you seem to be a promising up-and-coming thread killer! Welcome to the club. But, you can't possibly think we're going to let you come in here long after the 2000th post and kill this thread, do you?

 

[Moonbear]

Moonbear, if the history books, encyclopedia articles, etc. generally say that dadaism springs from universal disillusionment and nihilism as products of WWI, don't you think that might give you a hint?

I think that what the Dadaists did just seems so strange to you that you can't accept that they weren't kidding.

Nihilism means no final values at all. Dadaist art, according to the nihilist Dadaists, is no more or less junk than anything else at all. They would not come to your conclusion that "haha, the million-dollar art is worthless, what a joke!" because to them everything is worthless.

Bart, I took an art history class. That's where I learned what I learned, not from a paragraph or two on websites. The Dadaists themselves have stated this. If you dig beyond the websites that all have essentially the same canned text, you'll find that what I'm saying is based on the Dadaists own statements.

 

[Moonbear]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A156494

Dada quickly spread to Paris, Berlin, and even across the Atlantic to New York City. Dada ranted and railed against conventionally accepted aspects of society, challenging the status quo and questioning authority.

Nothing was sacred! Everything was mere fodder for Dadaist questioning and ridicule. Common objects, normally taken for granted, were often praised as artistic triumphs and practically worshipped, before being ripped to shreds and stomped on before a live audience of confused and bewildered people. Artists such as Man Ray, Max Ernst, Marcel Duchamp, and Hans Arp were just a few of those who moulded and shaped Dada into something quite perversely erotic.

Dada can be seen as a series of socio- patrio- psychologic- anarcho- materialistic experimental... things. Sometimes Dada artists would do something not to create art, but to instigate art in the audience. A bonfire of all the art created that night might be an example. Artists, after allegedly slaving over grandiose works of art and presenting them to the audience, would start a large fire and throw their works of art into the fire, just to see what the audience would do, if anything. Spontaneity and improvisation were the order of the day. Dada artists would break barriers by acting first and thinking later, taking their audience hostage or threatening to mow them down with farming equipment, for example.

Dadaism actually seems like a great theme to go along with this thread!

 

[Bartholomew]

You may have taken an art history class, but it's clear from talking to you that you are not experienced in interpreting art. Case in point, the issue with that Dinosaur Comics comic. Other case in point, your own admission that you do not enjoy art in general.

You start coming up with quotes from these people and you may begin to make a case; however, bear in mind that if you do so successfully, you're still only picking and choosing which quotes to use. For every quote about dadaism as humor, I'd guess there are 10 quotes about dadaism as nihilism, and probably 100 quotes about dadaism as nihilism if you account for the fact that the quotes about humor would sound more "interesting" and be more likely to be recorded.

 

[Bartholomew]

So how many quotes would convince me? You provide 5 quotes from 3 different major Dadaists that indicate Dadaism is meant as a joke on critics, and I'll agree with you that tricking critics is a legitimate part of Dadaism. That sounds fair to me.

 

[Moonbear]

You may have taken an art history class, but it's clear from talking to you that you are not experienced in interpreting art. Case in point, the issue with that Dinosaur Comics comic. Other case in point, your own admission that you do not enjoy art in general.

I never said I don't enjoy art in general. I said I don't enjoy poetry in general. I don't claim to be greatly experienced in interpreting art. There is no interpretation required in describing the purpose behind a movement.

You start coming up with quotes from these people and you may begin to make a case; however, bear in mind that if you do so successfully, you're still only picking and choosing which quotes to use. For every quote about dadaism as humor, I'd guess there are 10 quotes about dadaism as nihilism, and probably 100 quotes about dadaism as nihilism if you account for the fact that the quotes about humor would sound more "interesting" and be more likely to be recorded.

Go look up your own quotes if you want more. All the links I've provided support my statements, you're misinterpreting the nihilism statements. They were anti-art movements. I'm just in the business of thread-killing here.