What are the implications of time travel in popular culture?

[radagast]

Originally posted by phoenixthoth
"science is predicated on the belief that a theory must be proven or disproven, but they quite often take the lack of evidence as disproof, which goes against scientific premise."

I believe this is an erroneous misinterpretation of science and it's practice. Part can relate to Occams razor.

Occam is the one that states that given two or more competeing explanations/theories/etc. where all evidence is equal, the simplest explanation is the most rational explanation [given the evidence at hand].

It is only human nature that leads to the erroneous belief that a lack of evidence is disproof of anything. Rational thought, however, does give us Occams razor. The razor is a rational method for dismissing explanations that expound unfounded 'reasons', without bound.

Since I've never heard of a scientific theory that has been or could be proven, I'm a little skeptical of the rest of the quote.

 

[merak]

hoho haha ho ho hehe haha ho ho he sorry sometimes it just soooooooooo good to laugh!

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Originally posted by radagast
I believe this is an erroneous misinterpretation of science and it's practice. Part can relate to Occams razor.

Occam is the one that states that given two or more competeing explanations/theories/etc. where all evidence is equal, the simplest explanation is the most rational explanation [given the evidence at hand].

It is only human nature that leads to the erroneous belief that a lack of evidence is disproof of anything. Rational thought, however, does give us Occams razor. The razor is a rational method for dismissing explanations that expound unfounded 'reasons', without bound.

Since I've never heard of a scientific theory that has been or could be proven, I'm a little skeptical of the rest of the quote.

Really we agree but with one qualifier: Occam's razor is just a guideline. This is not a test for reality. Sometimes the more complicated explanation is required.

 

[Zantra]

Originally posted by merak
hoho haha ho ho hehe haha ho ho he sorry sometimes it just soooooooooo good to laugh!

maybe I missed the joke- perhaps you can enlighten us Personally I don't find the idea of my skin literally melting off my bones while my organs congeal into so much puss as very funny. And that's no hoax or science fiction. This "time traveller" guy was funny- nuclear war is not.

 

[Zantra]

Originally posted by phoenixthoth
"Another grim thought to consider. Perhaps the reason we have never seen any time travelers, is because there's no one left in the future TO time travel. We can only hope and pray that the fear of the devestation nuclear war would cause, is a strong enough deterrent to the leaders of our countries. Never take anything for granted, for you never know when it just may be your last."

i rather didn't enjoy reading this. perhaps there are no time travelers because we all die; how depressing is that? i think too few people are speaking out and it may be too little too late. let's CONSIDER asking the native americans what to do about iraq. let's CONSIDER asking kaku what to do about iraq. let's CONSIDER asking walter cronkite what to do about iraq. let's CONSIDER asking someone besides the current administration and those who just want to politically destroy him (on the other side) what to do. it seems to me that america is an entity, like myself, trying to enlighten others while itself being almost devoid of any enlightenment. we live in a society where sometimes animals are given better shelter than humans, for God's sake. i used to be homeless myself and i don't appreciate seeing on the news a housing complex built that's new and big that only holds two cats per room when i had four beds in my room. how can america expect to solve global problems without solving domestic problems first (i ask myself parallel questions)?

"cheers,"
phoenix

I agree we do have to solve our domestic problems too. Also think Bush's foreign policy sucks, and he used the 9/11 attacks to justify his Saddam agenda and to finish what his father didn't. Hopefully the next president will able to the mend the fences that Bush is tearing down.

I'm sorry to hear that you were homeless. Though I did come from a modest upbringing, I've always been blessed with a roof over my head and food in my stomach. The US is too self-absorbed in it's own problems to look up and see just how good we have it. Haven't been to other countries, I can tell you that even the poor here live in the lap of luxury compared to most countries.

 

[phoenixthoth]

no, zantra, you are quite wrong about the poor here living in the lap of luxury compared to what is going on in other countries. the poor here are in the same boat as the poor in other countries. I'm particularly speaking of the "mentally ill" homeless.

i must admit that you are partially right. for example, in ione where i live, there is a homeless shelter (with limited beds) and YOU CAN STAY FOR ONLY ONE MONTH. if you haven't got a job and saved enough for housing all in only a month, where are you supposed to go from there? homeless shelter to homeless shelter? what a messed up life that is. the unemployment problem, the way i see it, is near a depression stage right now and it has the potential to lead to a chain reaction of unemployment and people stuck in welfare with nowhere to go. many people right here in "enlightened," "free," "democratic," america have NO WHERE TO GO. i think these issues need to be addressed before we go about nation building without a clue how to do it. it seems like we learned something about nation building with germany and japan but we may not be using those lessons in iraq simply because we are unwelcome in iraq. why stick our collective noses in others' business? and why choose only iraq and afganistan? what about all the other "evil" empires out there?

cheers,
phoenix

 

[Zantra]

I should rephrase that to I HAVE been to other countries and seen the conditions there. I'm not saying the homeless have it good compared to the rest of us, but compared to the rest of the 3rd world countries, even the homeless have more advantages. They also have job opportunities that aren't available even to the people WITH a home. Mentally ill homeless is another story.

 

[phoenixthoth]

zantra,

i've been to other countries too through the eyes of cameras on tv. i must change my statement and agree with you that homeless here have a few more opportunities than elsewhere. in native american culture, the homeless can approach ANYONE's home and assume he will be welcome as long as he does his or her share of chores and farmwork. i view that as the way it should go, but people are so corrupted by their urges to steal that no one can logically trust a stranger in their home. in native america, people were more trusting. it's almost like a wanderer becomes a part of the family. the family asks HIM what he has learned in his travels.

the mentally ill homeless is quite another story. society, it seems, is quite unsympathetic and dispassionate towards the mentally ill. in reality, there is no working solution for the severely disturbed. I've known people maxed out (dose wise) on medication and therapy but they just don't respond to treatment. why not consider the possibility that what they need is SPIRITUAL healing? no one has the tools, it seems, for spiritual healing either. certainly, doctors don't. the twelve step programs probably do but then you have to buy into the existence of a higher power. we're taught by a religionless education system to be highly skeptical of any higher power, so we are cut off from that resource and have to teach ourselves the hard way.

doubt of a higher power is quite a powerful tool, almost a weapon; a weapon indirectly cutting at the very core of the spiritual self. there are many who don't even believe they have a soul to sell.


phoenix

 

[merak]

Originally posted by Zantra
maybe I missed the joke- perhaps you can enlighten us Personally I don't find the idea of my skin literally melting off my bones while my organs congeal into so much puss as very funny. And that's no hoax or science fiction. This "time traveller" guy was funny- nuclear war is not.

zantra..I was laughing at the time traveler.there is nothing funny about war.
I can not see a time machine being built by 2036.
IF some said he was from the year 9036 maybe,but only if he could offer proof...

 

[Zantra]

ok just wanted to clear that up

 

[PsYcHo_FiSh]

columbus and his collective that thought the Earth was round were insane until they were proven to be the only sane ones.

The belief that the Earth was flat was a common superstition then, as you know. However, this is not why Columbus sailed. It is a common misconception that he daringly sailed (romantically enough)to find out if the Earth was round or not but he really did it to find out how big it was. I mean, we know of the political and economic reasons (hopefully) but I'm referring to the scientific ones. Besides, I was reading a book about ancient science and it mentioned something about Columbus knowing the Earth was round simply by observing the water and islands.

Have you ever thought that it was about determining just how big the Earth was rather than how round it was? Because, centuries before now a Greek mathematician determined the Earth was round and later a Muslim mathematician would determine the same thing. Amazingly, they even were able to get an idea of just how big around it is. At that time it was thought circa 24,000 miles. Of course, this isn't accurate but these folks were doing this stuff without Satellites :) Um, colonial surveying technology (acting in lieu of GPS), impressive as it still is, is another topic altogether.

Oh yeah, and Amerigo Vespucci (I'm not Titoring you) was not the one America was named after. Since, the maps he procured were from a European investor named a certain Mr. Ameryke who had them charted in search of fishing areas on the Atlantic. Anyways, the maps already had the name 'America' on them :)

On another foot, the people here need to get some perspective.

http://www.anomalies.net/cgi-bin/bbs/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=9;t=000462

At least it seems they are so caught up in this 'John Titor' moniker. I think its fun and when 04-05 rolls around and a nuclear holocaust starts, well it won't be fun. However, I doubt that will happen. I think 'John' as we call him is just an intelligent, knowledgeable, creative person.

People are so awed by his ability to make general predictions about the future, some of which seem to have come true. However, I can throw out some vague predictions of what will happen tomorrow (metaphorically speaking) and some of them will probably come true. 'John' is just an insightful type with a knack for creative writing.

I enjoyed reading his stuff and for a while (all of a few minutes) he really had me taken in. However, I'll remain with an open mind but I'd like to think his reality does not come to be. At least the part with nuclear war, I mean come on that's kind of bleak.

Obviously this 'farmer soldier' type he is referring to is Cincinnatus (fyi, a Roman General who saved Rome and went right back to farming like he did before). He sounds like he knows the constitution and the history behind the founding father's. So do a lot of people, including myself. It seems as if he follows a more Jeffersonian view of how the U.S. should be.

Anyways, his message about not being lazy, taking responsibility and understanding that 'bigger' isn't always 'better' was well received here. As well, studying the U.S. constitution, I think that's important to. And, his thoughts on less centralized education, I agree with.

But, I always ask myself when confronted with a dilemma, which seems more likely? Then I tell myself to keep an open mind with an absence of data but go with the more likely possiblity in the mean time. With this John Titor fellow, let's just hope he's a rational prankster who's just having fun. If he's a delusional, well I feel sorry for him, I really do. And if he's for real, wow what a barbecue we might be heading for at this moment!

I enjoyed reading his thing and if anything, he may have just been trying to get a political message out.

In addendum, surrounding the 'John Titor' phenomena I see some fanboys, some wannabe experts in the field and even a therapist getting all serious with 'John' (which reminds me of a overzealous social worker).

Let's not speculate as fact everyone! I know people on this board would likely agree but, some people searching on Google (like myself) would not understand that concept. That's one area where people piss me off, unless of course, if they aren't playing.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Originally posted by PsYcHo_FiSh
...if anything, he may have just been trying to get a political message out.

I think the FiSh speaks the truth.

Now there's a sentence I never expected to write!

 

[PsYcHo_FiSh]

Its all about looking for purpose. Sometimes I do find some and other times I don't. This instance it was obvious because he was interspersing it throughout his comments.

Um, I hate to ruin the fun of a practical joke by looking for purpose though. Initially, I just got a kick out of it. I mean, its so funny yet so entertaining in an entirely other way.

I hope dear John 'Time Travel oR' isn't a psychotic or delusional. I wish he's just some educated fellow getting a laugh out of us.

I think he was telling the truth in one regard, he has been homeschooled. Its obvious in his breadth of knowledge and wide ranging interests as well as his creativity. Sorry for any of you regularly educated folks but I think homeschooling is supreme.

 

[phoenixthoth]

"The belief that the Earth was flat was a common superstition then, as you know."

that's all i was saying. i made no mention of why columbus sailed. at least, i don't remember saying it was just to prove the world was round or to prove that he wasn't insane. i doubt his primary goal was to measure the Earth's circumferance, though. my good old american education system told me that he wanted to find a hopefully cheaper route to india. i guess that's the source of my doubt that he had a scientific goal; so, being the USA's history system as it apparently is, i guess the doubt may be unjustified.

how the greeks and others could present evidence leading one to conclude the Earth was round, which i was aware of, and then many people still thinking it was flat is *somewhat* of a mystery to me.

interesting choice of word, "superstition." would you say it was a common "superstition" that the sound barrier couldn't be broken or that people will never be able to build flying machines? in ten thousand years, will they say that in 2003 it was a common superstition that time travel was impossible? will they say it was a common supersititon that exceeding the speed of light is impossible? i guess i should ask john titor. oh wait, he's only from 2036. it seems to me like what we think is rational now doesn't appear to be later all the time (eg, later it may be referred to as a superstition). it's not that it suddenly irrational, but that it wasn't rational ENOUGH.

you could pick this apart further and observe that the superstitions regarding the sound barrier and flying machines were inductive conclusions based on many, many experiments. i don't think there was a way to deductively prove that those beliefs were correct. they turned out to be incorrect, so i guess that rules out the possibility of deductively proving they were correct. on the other hand, people as far as i know are making deductive arguments regarding time travel and the speed of light barrier. so perhaps these shouldn't be considered superstitions. on the third hand, deductive arguments are based on premises. so one is forced to accept those before accepting the conclusions, of course. I'm not very inclined to accept einsteins axioms of special relativity at the moment, however. nor am i inclined to reject them. call me an Einstein agnostic. that being the case, i can't be sure if the speed of light can be exceeded. I'm equally up in the air on the time travel issue.

cheers,
phoenix

 

[PsYcHo_FiSh]

TL;DR

rhetorical rebuttal of yours

I think believing the world is flat is a superstition don't you? There was no purpose for you to devote a whole paragraph to waxing in my terminology (even if it did sound rational, it was smacking of the juvenile). Could you possibly get your point out more succinctly? Thanks, in forward.

And I said hopefully people know the economic reasons. Obviously you do, so there was no need for you to mention that.

But if you want a source for the Greek and Muslim mathematicians try

Lost Discoveries - The Ancient Roots of Modern Science - from the Babylonians to the Maya

BY DICK TERESI

I think good old John is a fake. I also thing you are postulating to much. This thread is good for kicks but not if people are so mediocre.

One thing I noticed about everyone on this board is you are pseudoscientific babble boxes.

But here's some of 'John's' alleged stuff found on a crack pot web site:

http://www.johntitor.com/JohnsPictures.htm

Take a look at that time machine! Looks like something out of Back to the Future.

With that said, here's a website for you to peruse:

www.skeptic.com/

 

[Embermage]

Technically, since he says that he was born in 1998, wouldn't that mean that he is alive and living somewhere in... Florida... right about now? Now, if he did give us his real name, which I doubt is true, would he be traceable?


Just some random thoughts from the peanut gallery.

 

[Zantra]

Originally posted by PsYcHo_FiSh

In addendum, surrounding the 'John Titor' phenomena I see some fanboys, some wannabe experts in the field and even a therapist getting all serious with 'John' (which reminds me of a overzealous social worker).

Actually that "therapist" was me. I was just trying to lure him out into talking so I could verbally corner him, but he wasn't biting. I'd love to have a crack at debunking him, but alas, the chance is gone *shrug*

 

[PsYcHo_FiSh]

I just thought if you were really interested in talking to him you could use 'PM'. I knew it was you though because I read your name off pretty well.

Hmm, you're really vicious with the debunking aren't you? Heh, I wouldn't treat it that seriously!

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Originally posted by Zantra
but alas, the chance is gone *shrug*

ZANTRA, you're back!
In case you didn't know, you should never say "alas" in front of Zooby.

 

[Zantra]

Originally posted by Ivan Seeking
ZANTRA, you're back!
In case you didn't know, you should never say "alas" in front of Zooby.

Ya back in one piece Well jumpin jimminey wilikers, I'll try and remember that for zoob's sake!

 

[Zantra]

Originally posted by PsYcHo_FiSh
I just thought if you were really interested in talking to him you could use 'PM'. I knew it was you though because I read your name off pretty well.

Hmm, you're really vicious with the debunking aren't you? Heh, I wouldn't treat it that seriously!

Actually though appearances may decieve, I'm an avid supporter of "valid" alternative theories. It's people such John Titor with too much time on their hands who detract from the valid claims, in much the same way fanatical abortion clinic bombers detract from the pro-life cause. With people like him around, it's no wonder the scientific community won't even contemplate subjects like UFO's due to it's attraction of fanatics.

90 percent of what's out there is bunk. It's the other 10 percent I'm interested in. There's always a little "science" in science fiction.

"when all possibilites have been eliminated, whatever remains, however unlikely, must be the truth.

Oh and I did contact Pamela, and invited her here to discuss JT, but she never responded. Perhaps because I wasn't a "believer"...

 

[kleinma]

I have the ability to travel through time, The possibilities are completely endless... first thing on my to do list.. go to an internet forum and post to people about the ability of time travel without giving them any actual shred of proof, or describe factual events in detail...

come on guys... i mean if you could time travel... is that how you would spend your time in the past??

 

[PsYcHo_FiSh]

I know, he never explained why he came onto the forums very well. I'm a skeptic but a entertaining story he paints. I hope he isn't some psychotic delusional but just some normal headed prankster. That would be funny then. Hopefully one day he comes out and admits it. Of course if I'm wrong, it would suck a lot because I'm happy being a fat lazy slob in a rich capitalist country. Except, I'm not fat.

PS Zantra where did you go? And who is this pamela character?

 

[RickD]

Original Titor Files

Hi All,

I am one of the original people involved with John Titor when he began posting on the Art Bell site.

Someone contacted me and told me that folks here doubted that the files we have were "original" or posted "way back when".

As the Chief Admin for the Anomalies Network (retired) I can assure you that the files we posted were originally from the Art Bell site and our own files are at least 3 years old.

Thus, rest at ease about the posts being "faked". They were not.

Our time travel section is the original section as it started several years back.

Thanks.

Rick Donaldson

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Originally posted by RickD
Hi All,

I am one of the original people involved with John Titor when he began posting on the Art Bell site.

Someone contacted me and told me that folks here doubted that the files we have were "original" or posted "way back when".

As the Chief Admin for the Anomalies Network (retired) I can assure you that the files we posted were originally from the Art Bell site and our own files are at least 3 years old.

Thus, rest at ease about the posts being "faked". They were not.

Our time travel section is the original section as it started several years back.

Thanks.

Rick Donaldson

Hi Rick,
First, thanks for posting. Have there been any serious efforts to debunk this guy? For example, I suspect that his time machine GE/C204 is a mobile receiver unit used by the military.

 

[phoenixthoth]

yes. on anomalies.net, what appears to be a serious physicist picked apart john's claims and concluded that the claims are not sufficiently grounded in currently understood physics. i suppose the ultimate conclusion is that john is a faker. i believe links to this counterargument have been posted by zantra earlier in this thread on PF.

i know this is illogical of me, but i reserve the right to doubt logical arguments no matter how impeccable the logic is. what would really prove it to me to be negative would be if john came to me (or i to him) with his supposed machine and it didn't work.

to give an analogy, suppose a time traveler went back to 1935 with an F-16. he writes letters to aero people saying that he is a time traveler with a machine capable of supersonic flight. they would come up with convincing arguments to prove that is impossible; the lay person would accept their impeccable logic which says breaking the sound barrier is impossible. if the time traveler isn't willing to demonstrate his machine to at least the aero people, if not the general public, then the whole thing is essentially a waste of time.

forgive me for not trusting either john or the physicist.

cheers,
phoenix

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Originally posted by Embermage
Technically, since he says that he was born in 1998, wouldn't that mean that he is alive and living somewhere in... Florida... right about now? Now, if he did give us his real name, which I doubt is true, would he be traceable?


Just some random thoughts from the peanut gallery.

Find the child Titor! Find the child Titor! Find the child Titor!

 

[phoenixthoth]

we should also kill the child to test out the grandfather paradox. ;)

 

[Zantra]

Originally posted by PsYcHo_FiSh
I know, he never explained why he came onto the forums very well. I'm a skeptic but a entertaining story he paints. I hope he isn't some psychotic delusional but just some normal headed prankster. That would be funny then. Hopefully one day he comes out and admits it. Of course if I'm wrong, it would suck a lot because I'm happy being a fat lazy slob in a rich capitalist country. Except, I'm not fat.

PS Zantra where did you go? And who is this pamela character?

I'm still around. Been on vacation for a while. Pamela was the most connected to the John Titor story. Apparently he was communicating largely through her for various things such as the pictures that were posted. She's one of the moderators on anomalies.net

 

[Zantra]

Yes indeed, John Titor was, at least in my mind, sufficiently debunked. By a Dr.Robert Browne from Duke university. People were going crazy contacting people about this. Even Stephen Hawking was asked about this, though I don't think he replied.

Then apparently Pamela, who was the only contact JT used, and Darby, another moderator, received information from a "friend of a friend" of the person who was portraying John Titor, confirming that it had been a hoax that got out of hand. I guess in theory there's still a possibility that he's real. About the same way there's a possibility the loch ness monster still exists.

If you consider the whole concept, it's brilliant, yet flawed at the same time. Go to one of the few places on the internet where you could convince people to take you seriously as a time traveller, then construct a very solid story as you go, complete with very believable psuedo physics, then skillfully manipulate answers to your questions to aviod making specific immediate references, while making broad predictions about the future that are close enough to take seriously, but not close enough to be tested while it's still an issue. Kind of reminds me of the John Edwards debacle. Psychics operate on many of the same principles. Not sure what the picture of the time machine was. Old military gear is the common theory. The rest of the pictures could have been creatively edited with photoshop. If I had the time on my hands, I could probably create a picture of me standing next to the time machine.

 

[Wolfmann]

Originally posted by Ivan Seeking
Here's some more. http://johntitor.strategicbrains.com/CopyrightProof.cfm

Putting aside the validity of this whole issue...

...if he's the true thing, this is EXACTLY the sort of attitude they would want people to possess, so he would just "go away".

Regardless if he's true or not, the underlieing message he brings is a fair warning for us right now to be mindful of how we conduct ourselves in the future. If he's not...then who cares. Let people decide for themselves, and if they want to believe, they can create a religion or something.

 

[Wolfmann]

Originally posted by Zantra
If you consider the whole concept, it's brilliant, yet flawed at the same time.

I tend to agree. However, the links that tend to note he's a hoax have been erased or otherwise censored. Is this by design? Most likely.

It is such a devilishly brilliant concept, and the implementation was very convincing. I'll tell you why.

His dialogue is very forward and down to earth. Whoever was posting this honestly believes in himself, his beliefs, even his history. He's either a whack job, or the real thing.

He makes no promises. Which gives him a convenient out, should things not happen. Considering that genetic convergence of 1% of or less can create birth abnormalities and changes, I can imagine what a quantum divurgence of 2.5% would create.

His whole mission is so ludicrous, it's believable. And directly unbelievable at the same time. Easy to dismiss...which gives it some credence. I've seen situations where old, obsolete hardware is powering multi-million dollar facilities. Basically the thinking is, if it ain't broke, it works, why fix it. Pencil detonator's for explosives are akin to this...there are fancy great new electronic detonator's, but they don't always work. 3 Pencil detonators are guaranteed to work. Don't ask me how I know that, I'm ex-Military.

The purpose for him retrieving the machine is not to use it...BUT that it is simply a tool that can read some arcane code. Given the state and the politics of the world, experts are probably few and far between and backyard mechanics are probably here and there. However...you would think that there is something more to the issue. The US Military is embarking on this mission...you'd think they'd have someone that can code in the various languages this machine can interpret and translate...UNLESS there are other languages not acknowledged. Or, of course this is entirely by design. A harbinger.

He's not a scientist. He's a soldier. Take a soldier. He can shoot his rifle, he can clean it. He can even take it apart. He can even be told the physics of how it fires, reloads...etc. But does that mean he'll retain it all? Will he be able to argue the exact tenets of theories, equations, and crap. A lot of the science that is supposedly debunking his own science is premature, and some of it is wrong. But it's where we are now, and we won't be any more advanced until we reach into the future ourselves...at one time we thought the world was square, the center of the universe, and man would never be able to fly, let alone land on the moon...

John Titor's story threatens people. It gives them a glimpse of something uncomfortable, and gives it to them in a meaningful, purposeful way. It also threatens the government. Believe me.

We don't have the specific science to 100% discredit him, and given our advances in science in the last 40 years, who's not say our entire quantum world won't be turned upside down. Tesla was an amazing man. You should do some research into him and the general inaccuracies in the current electro-magnetic theory. If he lived today, he may very well be a John Titor. www.cheniere.org

We also have no indepdent, verifably way to confirm if his science is flawed. According to him, at or about this time (3 years into

With 2.5% divergence...September 11th very well may not have happened, or the previous nuclear disasters may have overshadowed this. It's 25 years in the future, after all. Do you remember the Boer Wars? Grenada? Panama? Even the Gulf War? Thus because he does not come up with exacting and relevant conclusions, doesn't mean he's a hoax, either. Given the issues in the Middle East, I would say that's the first step of him being on-track.

Where do we go from here? True or not, I'm leaning a little bit to the hoax side myself...however if his road map falls out, it'll be interesting to see what happens. His message is a warning for all of us.

If he's wrong, even better...but what will the alternative be? It could be worse.

 

[Zantra]

Well for those who still hold a degree of acceptance for his claims, there's nothing to do but sit and wait for 2005. Waco/Ruby Ridge type incidents occurring, and escalating until we are engaged in full civil war in 2008 is kinda hard to miss. Of course there were also those proclaiming doom and gloom surrounding the millenium, and it didn't happen. Nothing to do but wait.

 

[Wolfmann]

There's a bit of leverage in this scenario. Even if we don't see it, there is going to be some sort of cataclysm. Even this 2015 cataclysm seems to come directly out of left field and probably isn't even related to the "civil war".

But it puts every one on the same page.

 

[RickD]

Hi Rick,
First, thanks for posting. Have there been any serious efforts to debunk this guy? For example, I suspect that his time machine GE/C204 is a mobile receiver unit used by the military.

Iva - some "debunking". Not really anything serious I would say. Most folks have taken a "side" in the issue and most generally I would say everyone has an opinion, scientific or not, but rarely has anyone posted (anywhere to my knowledge) anything other than firm "opinions". My own included in that for that matter.

Pesonally, I have spent a lot of time going through his previous posts of the first couple of years when I wasn't actually involved in communication with him, and I took some of his material and set up an "experiment".

I'll give a few details here.

First I ASSUME for the sake of argument that John Titor IS a time traveler, and second that he is "telling the truth" about everything he says.

Secondly, we took his statement of "I will NOT make ANY predictions" to heart, and assume he makes no "predictions.

Thirdly, since the first and second things above we're assuming are true, we asked questions of him. People asked things like "What is your world like".

Those answers while not "predictions" per se, are statements of "fact" as "he knows it". In other words, if he IS from the future, and he IS telling the truth, and his time line is NOT MUCH different from our own time line, it stands to reason that anything he is telling us is reasonably OUR FUTURE (with some deviation, of 2.5% or so - more on that later).

Thus, we have statements of "fact" about what something is like in the future. This defacto becomes a "prediction" - not in the traditional sense, but a prediction nonetheless.

I took about 100 statements he made and listed them as "predictions". These were statements about how such and such a thing was, or will be, about the nuclear war, the "Waco-like incidents" and so forth.

No where did I find anything about stockmarkets, 9/11 attack, or something like that. Just random, real statements about what the future is like from his personal point of view.

My hypothesis is "John Titor is a Time Traveler" and the proofs will be in the statements, at least on a semi-scientific study of those things he said.

For instance... if 97.5% of the list comes true, then without any doubt in my mind I can say "John Titor is a time traveler". If anything less than that amount comes true, say 85%, then we can say "John is likely a time traveler". If 50% or less comes true we can reasonably say "John was NOT a time traveler".

Here is where I got the numbers.

In the discussions of the time machine there were some "deviation factors". The further you traveled from your origin (2036) the greater the deviation. At 76 years from your point of origin, the actual "time line deviation is 2.5%". Without having much further information than "things start happening differently" (one of his statements which comes to mind) and "the further beyond 76 years, things get weird" (to paraphrase since I don't have the actual material in front of me) I can ONLY make a wild assed assuption here.

That assumption is that any given thing has a 100% chance of happening "again". And the further you drift from a given time line, the more changes will happen. That is, things WON'T happen as they did in say, our time line. (I hope that is clear).

I took 2036 - 76 and that gives me 1960. So if he traveled back to 1976 then things would have been "weird". So, we will assume WORST CASE. That is, he has at least a 2.5% deviation "factor" from his actual time line. That means of 100 RANDOM things in his time line only 97.5 of them will occur as he leaves his time line (left it, is going to leave... whatever!).

Ok... So... IF John is a TT, then all of the things on that list I typed up long ago ought to occur.

The problem (one of many) is that many of those things were somewhat subjective. That means that even if this were a true scientific experiment (which it is only as close as I could get given the circumstances) then if he is a TT they will come true. At least 97.5% of the 100 things will. Anything LESS indicates that he probably is NOT a real time traveler.

About the Time Machine... I am a 26 year military veteran. I'm a radio guy by trade. I'm familiar with nearly every sort of radio system the USAF uses anywhere, and most of the Army's gear. I'm familiar with a lot of other radio gear because I've been involved in radio for well over 30 years personally.

In the images we received that were from John, of the time machine, there were things in the images I DO recognize. One is a small yellow box with a big dial on it. That was a geiger counter. I was very familiar with that particular device because I had several of those in some of my old tactical gear many years ago.

As for the time travel "device" itself... I have been unable to find ANYTHING that even comes close - except the external box itself. Someone else (whose name escapes me) actually found a box like that, painted green, made of high impact plastic and is precisely what the military uses to house certain types of gear. Generally gear is transported in them, and not installed as this TT device appeared to be.

In other words, I do not personally believe that the time travel device is actually some other piece of gear that has been modified to look as it does in the images. In other words, it isn't some piece of gear that was made for some other purpose.
Whether or not it is REAL - I can't say. I CAN say though that if I wanted to reproduce a device that looks like that thing, and appears to have some functions, I could do so. I am an electronics engineer.

On the other hand, the schematics I saw, limited as they were had some very interesting aspects to them,and from both an electronics engineering standpoint and physics standpoint they were well drawn (or thought out) and DID indeed APPEAR to come from scans of an original manual.

Other than that, I can't say for sure they were real or hoaxed. If they are a hoax, they are well done.

Now... for the record... and published for what amounts to be the "first time" even though I've said this in chat rooms...

Personally, I do not believe John Titor was a time traveler. I believe he furnished a well done "history", or "psychological study" of the human mind though. He was either a very good SF writer, who was practicing on the rest of us normal humans, or was doing this out of sheer need to attract a large amount of attention. Apparently he did.

On the other hand, being open minded, I will say that until someone proves it absolutely to have been a hoax (with honest records, and hardware - say, the time machine itself) then I will not close out the possibility in my own mind that he was real.

A "true debunker" will have an eye for finding pieces of the puzzle that do not fit, not showing the guy was "an idiot" or "anyone that believes him is an idiot" etc. I've seen WAY too much of that over the past few years. Instead, a real honest to goodness "debunker" will find the parts of his "science" that are wrong. So far, I've not seen anyone do that, not anywhere. Then again, I've not seen everything written on this subject yet and it grows daily. Perhaps we will never know... for sure.

Rick Donaldson