What are the implications of time travel in popular culture?

[RickD]

Opps... saw a mistake.

In my previous post I said:

So if he traveled back to 1976 then things would have been "weird".

Should read:

So if he traveled back beyond 1960 then things would have been "weird".

(If he only traveled back to 1978, or 76 or so, then things would be exactly the same in his time line and the one he "landed in".)

 

[Zantra]

For those of you who missed this, someone contacted many scientists. One who actually bothered to reply was a physicist from Duke University, and he went over the flaws in his explanation of the workings of his time machine, and the inheirent flaws in such a device

This is his response, posted pretty recently.

http://www.anomalies.net/cgi-bin/bb...ic;f=9;t=000482

 

[phoenixthoth]

yeah. i'd recommend that posters read the thread before posting.

 

[Pocketwatch]

http://rosecity.net/al_gore/election_map.html

Has anybody noticed the cowboy holding a missle to the west of texas? Maybe that was what Titor wanted us to see.


By the way I don't like what Titor is doing. He appears to be practising mass hypnotism on people. He gives a few 'prophecies' of things that Titor knew would probably happen anyway. Then he describes a simple way to build a time machine. Some people want to believe in a time machine so badly that they go along with his suggestions that he knows the future and they expect it to really happen. Other people are shocked into suggestability by fear of the future.

I believe Titor's secret agenda is to start a war. Be careful about being taken for a ride that ends in disaster!

 

[phoenixthoth]

"by fear of the future"

"I believe Titor's secret agenda is to start a war."

doubtful that that could be accomplished on discussion forums in which he well knows lots of people will call him a whacko.

 

[Zantra]

Originally posted by Pocketwatch
http://rosecity.net/al_gore/election_map.html

Has anybody noticed the cowboy holding a missle to the west of texas? Maybe that was what Titor wanted us to see.

You're kidding right? I don't see how you can find a cowboy in all that. Amazing

 

[Pocketwatch]

Originally posted by phoenixthoth


doubtful that that could be accomplished on discussion forums in which he well knows lots of people will call him a whacko.

Tidor said he had personal rules that he followed unless they conflicted with his secret agenda.

Tidor said that building a time machine was the best way to start a war. (I don't see how he could have known that since he said the machine was built in 2034 and there was no war from 2034 to 2036).

Tidor gave a description of how the time machine was built. He seemed to be telling us how to build one.

He said that we would be better off if half of us were dead.

He said that he would not try to stop the war but we could yet probably wouldn't.

He said that in 2036 that people hated us.

As TT0 he said he personally hated us. He even blamed us for the death of his fiance who died of cancer.

I used the term mass hypnotism because that appears to be the effect he is having on some people. Would you prefer the term psycological terrorism? Tidor was very smooth in answering questions and covering up inconsistancies. Saying things like they use manual typewriters because computer printers did not work well on 12 volt batteries. The lifestyle he described in 2036 sounds like a struggle to survive. Living in tree houses and fishing for a living. How could they be developing the technology needed for building time machines?

Do you choose to believe that Titor's story is true and that he is a real time traveler?

I believe that he is conducting a well prepared experiment to see if he can change the future.

 

[phoenixthoth]

all i said, and/or meant, was that it is doubtful that anyone can start a war on a discussion forum. if that's his game, he chose poor tactics. go back and study his sun tzu, he should.

that opinion had nothing to do with whether or not i believe him. I'm utterly undecided.

 

[Pocketwatch]

Originally posted by Zantra
You're kidding right? I don't see how you can find a cowboy in all that. Amazing

May be that Titor is just trying to influence the 2004 election. If so what party do you think he is favouring?

That sounds better at least than Titor trying to start a war on purpose.

 

[phoenixthoth]

i don't think the best way to start a war is on discussion forums.

i would blackmail a (group of) translator(s). so the next time the dude says "we come in peace" the translator can say "you will kneel trembling before us and obey my brutal commands," although it might be confusing as to why there were so many more words in the translation than the original... I'm sure such loose ends could be tied up.

;)

 

[Ivan Seeking]

For crying out loud...look at the number of views of this thread!

 

[Smart Guy]

Time Travel it's bout as logical as space travel

It is possible that a person was sent here to prevent some great catastrophe, but let's just be real. B.S military documents and pictures of some contraption you would find in radioshack(a well stocked Radioshack). We are sceptical by nature that's why there are Physics Forums. Our future military would have sent more stuff with him than a manual. Time Travel Yes Titor No.

 

[Zantra]

Dear god this thread just won't die

 

[phoenixthoth]

Our future military would have sent more stuff with him than a manual.

when i envision a pilot of an apache flying in iraq, i don't envision that pilot having anything more than a manual for an apache, if that.

 

[Smart Guy]

But if?

But if that Apache Pilot fley back in time to WWII With information from the future the craft itself would be evidence. John Titor Had a shot Gun(not even a good one just some old chrome sawed off pump) and a Corvette. I can soup up a vette. Also he would know how his vehicle worked so he could fix any problems that would prevent his return trip. At least Smart Guy would.

 

[THE[>U<]DUDE]

Did anyone ask this Titor guy if he had a dog called Einstein?

Just a thought

 

[Tweek]

Well I guess we have less then a year till civil war! Come on guys he claims that his corvette is a time machine! I think it would be a fun to live the world inside his head.

 

[phoenixthoth]

we already do.

 

[Smart Guy]

Whats sup Tweet

Originally posted by Tweek
Well I guess we have less then a year till civil war! Come on guys he claims that his corvette is a time machine! I think it would be a fun to live the world inside his head.

I guess it would be fun to live in the imagination. As long as you were able to return back to the real world. Then you would not need a time machine.

 

[THE[>U<]DUDE]

Thinking about Titor ...

In my unlearned opinion, Time Travel is impossible and will always be (confined?) in the realms of Science-Fiction and flights of imaginary fancy.

TT is like the Fermi Paradox concerning the existence (or not) of ETs. If Men from the future can travel backwards in time then they would surely be here by now. Of course, this doesn't take into account the possibility of multiple timelines!

Some points to consider against the likelihood of TT:

1. Fact - The Universe is continuously expanding. Theory - The connections between superstrings must be expanding accordingly.

The atomic structure of a Time Traveller from the future would be comprised of 'larger' superstrings. Therefore, his very appearance in an earlier (smaller superstring) era would create a shift in the universal equilibrium, with possible devastating results for all.

2. Fact - As space expands, the Solar System is continously moving - and pretty darned fast too! Any Time Traveller coming from even a few days into the future (let alone three decades as Titor claimed) would find himself stranded in space (unless his Time Vehicle is a spacecraft too - and not many Corvettes are!).

3. Fact - The Time Traveller is comprised of matter. Matter redistributed by consumption/absorption et cetera from other external sources (we are all made from starstuff!). This matter would exist in a different form prior to the Time Traveller eating it. This different form would exist in the Time Traveller's past (our present). Which means upon appearing in our time, identical atoms would suddenly exist in two places at once! Paradox! Our universe would suddenly contain MORE matter than it did a moment before. Since matter and energy are inter-transferable, this would destabilize the universal equilibrium, again with untold bad results.

4. Fact - Nature likes balance. Moving matter/energy through the timeline willy-nilly would go against the grain. Chaos would surely result, and we all know nature cleaves to order. Theory - No Creator in His right mind would allow it. I wouldn't!

 

[phoenixthoth]

what's your definition of time travel?

ever heard of time-dilation in special relativity? perhaps you have but that doesn't fit your definition of time travel.

to me, "proving" a feat is impossible based solely on a finite amount of past experience is risky. in other words, arguments like feat X has never happened in the t years I've been observing the universe implies that feat X will NEVER happen. i'd be much more inclined to think it may be very unlikely but not neccessarily impossible.

does "event A is impossible" mean that P(A)=0?

if P(A)=0, A is still possible. for example, consider flipping a coin infinitely many times. consider the event that all results are heads: A={heads, heads, heads, ...}={a_n} where a_n=heads for all n. P(A)=0 but it is still possible that it will always be heads. actually, any outcome has probability 0. {heads,tails,heads,tails,...} also has probability 0 but it could still happen.

i'm guess that by impossible, you mean that literally.

 

[THE[>U<]DUDE]

... mmm.

My references were strictly restricted to the macro-universe side of the time travel fence.

Time is relative - so in a sense everyone and everything is time-travelling in it's own subjectivity.

I didn't literally mean that because I (or we) had not personally witnessed a time traveller in our years of observation that that was my 'proof' discaliming time travel.

What I meant was, that if you think of time as a two-way street then someone ought to have traveled back in time to our era by now and proved it's eventual invention (or discovery) in some far future.

It's common sense, as I see it.

Surely, if time travel was a reality in the future then surely some unscrupulous individuals would steal the technology and use it for their own ill-gotten means. This is the nature of Man. Since our history so far has not recorded any such events (that we recognize as such) then it is fairly likely to say that no-one has traveled back in time to any period prior to our present - or else we'd have evidence to some degree or another.

?

 

[phoenixthoth]

this is an argument stephen hawking mentions as well.

i'm not sure how old mankind is. in other words, I'm not sure how long homo sapiens have been around. and how long we've been using language, tools, etc...

but let's say that homo sapiens has been around since year x. i would guess that (2003 - x)>15000 but I'm not sure.

let's pretend, for a moment, that time travel, back and forward, is possible and it gets invented in the year 2003+y, y years from now. the set of times for which mankind will have existed by then is
[x, 2003+y] which is the same as [x,2003]&cup;[2003,2003+y]. the age of mankind by then will be 2003 - x + y. just for the sake of making a calculation, let's say that the probability of a time traveler coming from a year in [2003+y,&infin;) to any specific year in [x, 2003+y] is equally likely. to say it will be more likely to come in [1900,2003+y], for example, is to guess what time travelers would be more interested. although by that argument, it's also a guess that any time travelers would be interested in the interval
[x,2003+y] and not something before that. so let's for the moment pretend all years in [x,2003+y] are equally likely to receive visits from a time traveller in [2003+y,&infin;). then the probability that a time traveler will visit any particular year, decade, and century are given, respectively, by
P1=1/(2003 - x + y),
P10=10/(2003 - x + y),
P100=100/(2003 - x + y).

i think it's pretty safe to assume that 2003 - x > 15000 and y > 5. this gives upper bounds on P1, P10, and P100:
P1<1/15005&asymp;0.0000666445
P10<10/15005&asymp;0.000666445
P100<100/15005&asymp;0.00666445.

for example, the probability that a time traveler visits the 21st century is less than 0.007. and this was assuming y > 5, time travel is invented only 5 years from now. it could be that y>10000 which would lower the upper bounds.

however, this is only the probability that one time travler visits a time in the interval [x, 2003+y]. there could be, of course, a googleplex of time travelers coming from the interval [2003+y,&infin;) which would raise the odds of there being at least one visitor to a random year.

the probability of there being at least one is equivalent to there being 1 or 2 or 3 or ... time travelers. then the probability of there being at least one time traveler to any given century would be approximated by some infinite series:
P100(n&ge;1)=SUM[ (100/(2003 - x + y))ⁿ : n&ge;1]. this geometric series has sum 100/(1903 - x + y) if i did all the math right. this isn't hugely bigger than 100/(2003 - x + y) since the odds of n time travelers visiting a particular century get lower when n gets larger. assuming 1903 - x > 14900 and y > 5, the probability that at least one time traveler comes in any particular century is at most 0.00670916. at most. now if y is much bigger than 5, in other words if time travel is invented more than 5 years from now, the upper bound lowers. if y>1000 then the new upper bound for the probability of at least one time traveler coming to any particular century is 0.00628931, about one-sixth as likely as getting blackjack in one game of 21.

therefore, the argument "why haven't they come yet" is not something that i put much stock in.

 

[revesz]

I guess the best answer is to just sit back and wait.

I decided to write down his predictions, if they come true then i'll start to think about it.

 

[one_raven]

Nonsense!

I haven't read this entire thread yet, so please forgive me if I am saying something that has been said already.

There is one simple reason to not believe that this is true.
He claims that the multiple worlds theory is true.

If the mulitple worlds theory is true, wouldn't time travel (especially with the intention of "warning" us about the future to come) be completely pointless?

If the multiple worlds theory is true, then there are in infinite number of worldlines existing simultaneously, and an infinite number constantly being created.
If he traveled back in time, what would bring him to this particular worldline?
Why?

If every possible outcome WILL happen what is so special and significant about THIS worldline?

If he is a soldier, the military would only send him back if he had a specific purpose (such as to prevent this nuclear war), but.

Regardless of whether or not he stops this event in X worldline it will still happen in another. What is the point of creating a new worldline in which it doesn't?

Whatever he does, whoever he convinces, there will be no effect to his traveling back in time, so there would be no point.

In the many worlds scenario, you can't go back and change the past, you can just go back and create new worldlines.
It is similar to going to the beach and dropping a pinch of salt in the ocean.

The event would still happen.
He would just create a new worldline in which it doesn't.

 

[bloodnok]

Multiple worlds - what are the chances

one_raven: I don't agree with the "what are the chances" argument, because it's like denying the possibility of winning the lottery based on probability when you're standing there with the cheque for $1m :)

I stumbled on the whole John Titor thing a couple of weeks ago and it was a very interesting read. I tend to think (and Occam may agree), that it's most likely to be a physics grad with lots of spare time having a bit of fun with the Art Bell crowd... however if you treat him as a social observer/commentator then he raises some very valid points. Our society so needs what he described.

I'm only an armchair physicist, so I can't really comment on the whole time-travel mechanism he mentions. All I can say is that he doesn't stoop to "movie-like" time travel - brilliant spinning vortices of light, star-trek warp drives, Delorians and flux-capacitors - which indicates that (assuming he's a crank) he's put a bit of thought into his story.

 

[wasteofo2]

Originally posted by one_raven
I haven't read this entire thread yet, so please forgive me if I am saying something that has been said already.

There is one simple reason to not believe that this is true.
He claims that the multiple worlds theory is true.

If the mulitple worlds theory is true, wouldn't time travel (especially with the intention of "warning" us about the future to come) be completely pointless?

If the multiple worlds theory is true, then there are in infinite number of worldlines existing simultaneously, and an infinite number constantly being created.
If he traveled back in time, what would bring him to this particular worldline?
Why?

If every possible outcome WILL happen what is so special and significant about THIS worldline?

If he is a soldier, the military would only send him back if he had a specific purpose (such as to prevent this nuclear war), but.

Regardless of whether or not he stops this event in X worldline it will still happen in another. What is the point of creating a new worldline in which it doesn't?

Whatever he does, whoever he convinces, there will be no effect to his traveling back in time, so there would be no point.

In the many worlds scenario, you can't go back and change the past, you can just go back and create new worldlines.
It is similar to going to the beach and dropping a pinch of salt in the ocean.

The event would still happen.
He would just create a new worldline in which it doesn't.

Titors stated reason for "travelling back in time" was that he needed some computer thing, not to stop the war or whatever he claimed would happen by his time.

 

[JazzyJAC]

This has to be false, use common sense. Our current generation, "The Hip Generation", won't talk like this idiot did. His post would be more, like fo shizzle, ya'll be some wacked fools to believe all dis hype, you know wat I'm sayin:). Note the shortening of words and the continuing trend for language to change, his language was much too 2000ish!

 

[THE[>U<]DUDE]

Interesting.

There is also the amazingly obvious point of why on Earth any time traveller would expose himself so publicly.

Any half moron would try to avoid being discovered - not go out of his way to broadcast his existence!

I'm afraid old John was yet another false prophet - fitting for his timely arrival at the turn of the Millennium.

 

[9 monkeez]

John Titor is a mind control technique used by the original Illuminatti to start a civil war.
Be aware.

 

[Guybrush Threepwood]

Originally posted by 9 monkeez
John Titor is a mind control technique used by the original Illuminatti to start a civil war.
Be aware.

yep, that's what I mean by debunking

 

[9 monkeez]

Debunk?
Time travel is not world line jumping.
Hmm...k, bye.

 

[member 5645]

haha, man, this guy is a utopian nut who is trying to scare people into changing their ways...

I loved the last line of this...
(33) We live in a world recovering from years of war, poison, destruction and hate. All of it, courtesy of the thinking and actions of people that live right now in the same world you do, worrying about which stocks to buy or whether or not a stranger is lying to them on the Internet.


Now someone, explain to me why this is his answer...
Are some areas of the United States safer than others?
(42) Take a close look at the county-by-county voting map from the last elections.

 

[member 5645]

What type of money do you use in 2036?

Its not very different than it is now. Yes, we have money and credit cards.
However, like everything else, the monetary system is decentralized. Banking
is based mostly around the community structure. There are no multinational
banking or computerized economic systems. There are also no income taxes.


Is there an IRS?


Yes, we pay taxes. Sounds like you don't enjoy keeping track of your
personal income taxes. I don't think anyone does.


There we go :)

 

[9 monkeez]

Even the earliest American settlers payed property taxes...
What a thrill that would have been to be able to steak a claim.
Cheers!