What were the consequences of Israel's attack on the Gaza Aid Flotilla?

[arildno]

Now I realize the "peace activists" don't see it this way, but there is no line at all between helping the trapped civilians and helping the terrorists, only a blurry spectrum of motivation. On one side of the spectrum you have these "peace activists", foolishly aiding the terrorists' cause. On the other side is Jane Fonda, who while she later claimed to have been manipulated, regarding some of her activities, nevertheless willingly participated in enemy propaganda activities.

Agreed.
Wilful stupidity/blindness is, simply put, deeply immoral, and the standard self-justification "I didn't know!" should be denounced as what it is:
Evidence of a MORAL flaw in that individual, rather than just an intellectual one. People are morally obliged to find out the actual facts about the causes they wish to engage themselves in.

 

[TubbaBlubba]

To them, the Palestinians are like a specter of radicalism and need that they want nothing to do with, directly. The house of Saud has used the issue for decades, along with religion, and gifting to control Saudi Arabia, but that is not a creation of the people of that country. Rather, it is a tool used to keep them distracted as their government picks their pockets.

I think this is a dangerous way of thinking. As soon as you start blaming peopel for being part of a nationality, you're taking the first step against racism. Regardless of the practices Palestinians engage in (I have no good notion of this, I'm sure many despicable things are done in a country in such poor state), you can't blame the people for this. Do you really believe Palestinians are born and raised to be evil? Because that's what you seem to be implying.

Rather, I believe that a people in such poor state immediately become more prone to extremists like Hamas. Not entirely unlike how the Germans elected Hitler (blah blah blah reductio ad hitlerum), despite his obviously insane political program. I don't think the Germans of the early 19th century were born and raised evil, they were desperate, just like how the Palestinians are desperate now. And I don't think brutal warfare will make them better, unless you're hell-bent on genocide.

 

[arildno]

. Do you really believe Palestinians are born evil?

Of course not.

Do you really believe Palestinians are raised to be evil?

Read Arab newspapers, Palestinian TV-shows, and mosque sermons.
Come back to that question once you have done so.


Evil is NOT effectively born out of a desperate material situation, quite the opposite in my opinion.

People in a truly desperate material situation have no time to blame&hate anyone for their situation, they need to get food first.

Evil is a luxury commodity.

 

[TubbaBlubba]

So... You think the people in the Gaza strips live in luxury...? Because that would contradict what you're saying now. Or are they too desperate?

 

[OmCheeto]

Of course not.

Read Arab newspapers, Palestinian TV-shows, and mosque sermons.
Come back to that question once you have done so.

And don't forget to look at their http://www.adl.org/main_arab_world/the+arab+media%E2%80%99s+response+to+the+gaza+flotilla.htm" .

 

[TubbaBlubba]

And don't forget to look at their http://www.adl.org/main_arab_world/the+arab+media%E2%80%99s+response+to+the+gaza+flotilla.htm" .

That's what it looks like from their point of view. I can't say those cartoons look too horrible. It's not like the US didn't make caricatures of everyone (especially Tojo) during World War II.

 

[arildno]

So... You think the people in the Gaza strips live in luxury...? Because that would contradict what you're saying now. Or are they too desperate?

What, exactly, is the "contradiction" here?

That in order to formulate a punchline, "Evil is a luxury commodity", I chose to overstretch the actual argument I made in the sentences above the punchline?

Or are you perhaps unable to see the difference between a punchline and an argument?

 

[arildno]

That's what it looks like from their point of view. I can't say those cartoons look too horrible. It's not like the US didn't make caricatures of everyone (especially Tojo) during World War II.

Tojo deserved to be represented as the actual monster he was.

 

[TubbaBlubba]

Tojo deserved to be represented as the actual monster he was.

Okay, so now whoever the US says is evil really IS evil, while whoever the Middle East says is Evil is in fact not evil.


Nice point of view bias.


You claim that evil is a luxury commodity in your argument, and that people in sufficiently bad condition can't be evil. You also imply that the people in the Gaza strip are evil. Thus you must be claiming that the people in the Gaza strip live in some relative luxury. A contradiction arises unless you claim that the people in Gaza live in some relative (undefined) luxury.

 

[arildno]

As for whether people can be "raised to be evil" from a very early age, consider the following snippet from Beauclerc's "A journey to Morocco in 1826".

He has been describing the lot of Jews then, and mentions one episode (amongst others) that particularly struck him:

..we consider the debasement to which they (the Jews) are subject even from the children of a true believer. I have seen a little fellow of six years old, with a troop of fat toddlings of only three or four, teaching their young ideas to throw stones at a Jew, and one little urchin would with the greatest coolness, waddle up to the man and literally spit upon his "Jewish gaberdine". To all this the Jew is obliged to submit; it would be more than his life was worth to offer to strike a Mahomedan

Actually, from other sources, we know that a Jew might well have his hand cut off, or in some cases killed, if he dared to strike back.

Source:
Captain Beauclerc: "A Journey to Morocco in 1826":
http://www.archive.org/stream/journeytomorocco00beaurich#page/n9/mode/2up

 

[TubbaBlubba]

Yes, many muslim countries are raised to hate jews. And with the way Israel is acting, I don't think they're helping.Hell, there are similar problems in Europe - the Romani people are despised in many countries, in particular the eastern Europe ones.

 

[TubbaBlubba]

How could they help? Please present your argument in historical terms that support a notion that Israel can engender anything but hatred regardless of what they do. You strike me as something of an apologist.

Um, okay.

1. For various historical and cultural reasons, most muslim countries (AMONG OTHERS) are bigoted against Jews.
2. The UN decides that the Jews get a nation in the middle of the middle east.
3. The middle east, for various reasons, some of them territorial, some of them cultural, some of them religious, does not like this.
4. Israel uses its superior firepower to suppress the muslims, eventually squeezing one and a half million of Palestinians together on a miniscule strip of land.

Israel is intent on expanding its territory as much as it can, and opposed to a two-state solution. They are engaging in state terrorism towards Gaza. What they SHOULD have done would have been to right away been as humble as possible and started negotiating for a two-state solution 60 years ago. If that actually worked out, then Israel certainly could have gained respect.

 

[zomgwtf]

Um, okay.

1. For various historical and cultural reasons, most muslim countries (AMONG OTHERS) are bigoted against Jews.

Indeed.

2. The UN decides that the Jews get a nation in the middle of the middle east.

Are you sure you understand exactly what happened? The Israelis actually had to fight to get that land. It was by no means 'given to them' that was just 'formal recognition'. Many wars and riots were fought and many Jews and Arabs lost their lives. This is what happens in the world when one people want a nation. They rise up and get one.

3. The middle east, for various reasons, some of them territorial, some of them cultural, some of them religious, does not like this.

Indeed

4. Israel uses its superior firepower to suppress the muslims, eventually squeezing one and a half million of Palestinians together on a miniscule strip of land.

AFAIK They never had to live there, a lot of them chose to. Infact, I believe they were given the opportunity to declare an 'arab state' but never took the opportunity. While it is true many were forced from their lands during the wars I don't see why this particularly is a negative thing against Israel. Unless you think the same way about basically EVERY nation in the world? (Especially European ones.)

Israel is intent on expanding its territory as much as it can, and opposed to a two-state solution.

Citation for?

They are engaging in state terrorism towards Gaza.

Citation please? I think the proper term is 'they are at war with Gaza and are raping the **** out of them.'

What they SHOULD have done would have been to right away been as humble as possible and started negotiating for a two-state solution 60 years ago. If that actually worked out, then Israel certainly could have gained respect.

You think that they DIDN'T try to work out various solutions with the Arabs? That's rediculous in fact Israel had made LOTS of head way with Arab nations including Turkey and Egypt... those I would say were the biggest 'moves ahead' for Israel.

 

[tiny-tim]

What they SHOULD have done would have been to right away been as humble as possible and started negotiating for a two-state solution 60 years ago. If that actually worked out, then Israel certainly could have gained respect.

You mean in 1948?

Israel did exactly that (negotiated for a two-state solution) …

the negotiations ended in the 1947 UN partition plan …

Israel declared the Israeli state, expecting the (Palestinian) Arabs to declare an Arab state, but the Arabs didn't …

instead they allowed the Arab League countries to breach the UN charter by attempting to destroy Israel, and they were occupied by Jordan (the West bank) and by Egypt (the Gaza strip) for 19 years without ever asking Jordan or Egypt for independence.

If they had obtained independence from Jordan and Egypt, that would have been the two-state solution which both the UN and Israel wanted …

60 years ago! ​

 

[arildno]

Yes, many muslim countries are raised to hate jews.

Indeed they are.

And with the way Israel is acting, I don't think they're helping.

And did the deferential, slave-like attitude Jews had to adopt in the Dar-al-Islam, say, in the nineteenth century "help" reduce that hatred?

Hell, there are similar problems in Europe - the Romani people are despised in many countries, in particular the eastern Europe ones.

Why should people not despise thieves, and cultures organized in such a manner that the members cannot hold proper jobs within a modern society (i.e, nomadism)?

 

[TubbaBlubba]

You mean in 1948?

Israel did exactly that (negotiated for a two-state solution) …

the negotiations ended in the 1947 UN partition plan …

Israel declared the Israeli state, expecting the (Palestinian) Arabs to declare an Arab state, but the Arabs didn't …

instead they allowed the Arab League countries to breach the UN charter by attempting to destroy Israel, and they were occupied by Jordan (the West bank) and by Egypt (the Gaza strip) for 19 years without ever asking Jordan or Egypt for independence.

If they had obtained independence from Jordan and Egypt, that would have been the two-state solution which both the UN and Israel wanted …

60 years ago! ​

How has the territorial plans and solutions varied between the years? From what I understand, Israel wasn't satisfied with the portion they got.

Why should people not despise thieves, and cultures organized in such a manner that the members cannot hold proper jobs within a modern society (i.e, nomadism)?

Why are you so condemning of people? Yes, thievery is a big problem. But the solution is certainly not, as the did and still do in many former USSR countries, to let them go in schools for the mentally retarded and then give them the worst jobs possible. Rather, we need to put a bigger focus on education. You appear to be stuck in a "THEM BAD, WE GOOD!" mindset. It's sad.

 

[estro]

TubbaBlubba,
You know it is very easy to sit in Sweden (where the only problem is boredom) and do bla...bla...bla... about peace and love. But we in Israel don't have the time to wear pink-glasses we need to fight for our existence.
Have you seen war? Have you seen your friends die? Have you risked your life?
It's seems to me you are more a talk lover then peace seeker...

 

[TubbaBlubba]

TubbaBlubba,
You know it is very easy to sit in Sweden (where the only problem is boredom) and do bla...bla...bla... about peace and love. But we in Israel don't have time to wear pink-glasses we need to fight for our existence.
Have you seen war? Have you seen your friends die? Have you risked your life? Have you seen the conflict with your own eyes?

So now I can't have an opinion because I don't have a nationally biased view?

 

[arildno]

How has the territorial plans and solutions varied between the years? From what I understand, Israel wasn't satisfied with the portion they got.

Eh, no.

It was the arab nations that REJECTED the two-state solution back in 1948 (and every attempt prior to that). Then, they went to war.
Jordan annexed most of what should have been a Palestine state, whereas the Israel managed to hold onto what had been given to them by the UN, possibly gaining something as well
(Not sure on the distributive key here, between Jordan and Israel).

 

[TubbaBlubba]

Eh, no.

It was the arab nations that REJECTED the two-state solution back in 1948 (and every attempt prior to that). Then, they went to war.
Jordan annexed most of what should have been a Palestine state, whereas the Israel managed to hold onto what had been given to them by the UN, possibly gaining something as well
(Not sure on the distributive key here, between Jordan and Israel).

What I mean is, what was the original plan, and how does it compare to how it looks today?

 

[estro]

So now I can't have an opinion because I don't have a nationally biased view?

Opinion must be shaped by reality and not by cartoon network channel...

 

[arildno]

Why are you so condemning of people? Yes, thievery is a big problem. But the solution is certainly not, as the did and still do in many former USSR countries, to let them go in schools for the mentally retarded and then give them the worst jobs possible. Rather, we need to put a bigger focus on education. You appear to be stuck in a "THEM BAD, WE GOOD!" mindset. It's sad.

Education does not eradicate the contempt of non-Romani Romanis cultivate amongst themselves.

In Norway, we have given education, cars, houses to Romanis since 1945.
Nothing whatsoever have helped. THe Romani parents take out their kids from school for two or three months a time in the middle of the school year. 1-ONE- single gypsy has finished senior high in 65 years. Most live on lavish welfare, and STILL are extremely over-represented in the crime statistics (theft) in Norway.

 

[TubbaBlubba]

Opinion must be shaped by reality and not by cartoon network channel...

You mean like Dror Feiler, who was an Israeli paratrooper and left the country in disgust of its actions, and was one of the organizers of the flotilla?

You're in a position where it is convenient and relieving to assume that what YOUR country does is RIGHT.

Education does not eradicate the contempt of non-Romani Romanis cultivate amongst themselves.

In Norway, we have given education, cars, houses to Romanis since 1945.
Nothing whatsoever have helped. THe Romani parents take out their kids from school for two or three months a time in the middle of the school year. 1-ONE- single gypsy has finished senior high in 65 years. Most live on lavish welfare, and STILL are extremely over-represented in the crime statistics (theft) in Norway.

Yes, I realize this is a problem. It's obviously something you have to work out from the inside. They are, however, people just like you and me. And no people deserves to be despised.

 

[estro]

You mean like Dror Feiler, who was an Israeli paratrooper and left the country in disgust of its actions, and was one of the organizers of the flotilla?

You're in a position where it is convenient and relieving to assume that what YOUR country does is RIGHT.


Yes, I realize this is a problem. It's obviously something you have to work out from the inside. They are, however, people just like you and me. And no people deserves to be despised.

He has the right for opinion, YOU are NOT...

 

[TubbaBlubba]

He has the right for opinion, YOU are NOT...

Aha. And how come? Because I disagree with you? If I was pro-Israel, would I have the right to an opinion?

 

[estro]

Aha. And how come? Because I disagree with you? If I was pro-Israel, would I have the right to an opinion?

I disagree with Dror Feiler's opinion, but he has the right for opinion because he did see the conflict with his own eyes. You have never seen the conflict...

 

[TubbaBlubba]

I disagree with Dror Feiler's opinion, but he has the right for opinion because he saw the conflict with his own eyes. You have never seen the conflict...

What about the Pro-Israel people? They haven't seen the conflict either. How can they be against Gaza without having been there?

 

[arildno]

Yes, I realize this is a problem. It's obviously something you have to work out from the inside.

COmpletely wrong. It is solely the fault of Romani individuals, and leftists like yourself, who demand that we others should finance them by welfare.

They are, however, people just like you and me.

And?
So were Attila, Hitler, or for that matter, Mother Teresa. Completely irrelevant.

And no people deserves to be despised.

Totally wrong.
Some people should be despised, on basis of their actions, or lack of actions.

This holds both on the individual level, and on the level of human aggregates like cultures.

(When speaking of aggregates, one should always be aware that while the culture might be fundamentally despicable, not all individuals within that culture can be said to embody the despicable elements within "their" culture. )

 

[estro]

What about the Pro-Israel people? They haven't seen the conflict either. How can they be against Gaza without having been there?

I'm not interested in pro or anti opinions of people with pink-glasses...
True opinions are shaped by loss of friends lives.

 

[TubbaBlubba]

COmpletely wrong. It is solely the fault of Romani individuals, and leftists like yourself, who demand that we others should finance them by welfare.

And?
So were Attila, Hitler, or for that matter, Mother Teresa. Completely irrelevant.

Totally wrong.
Some people should be despised, on basis of their actions, or lack of actions.

This holds both on the individual level, and on the level of human aggregates like cultures.

(When speaking of aggregates, one should always be aware that while the culture might be fundamentally despicable, not all individuals within that culture can be said to embody the despicable elements within "their" culture. )

Sigh. I'm tired of this. You CONSTANTLY try to put the blame on the fact that there are LEFTISTS (yep, the conspiracy of communism, it still lives!), because they don't agree with you. Well, guess what, the economic problems of the world are caused by RIGHTISTS like yourself!

It is entirely and completely right. The only way to integrate the "isolating" Romanis is to give them an appreciation of the economic culture of the world, and this can only be done by having people they trust educate them on this. There ARE well-educated romanis who do work for this. It's probably something that more active action should be taken on.

I'm speaking of people in singular. Obviously some individuals are despicable. However, people in general and as a group are often very similar. Many muslims flee to Sweden from Iran, and I've met many of them. Guess what, they're people just like you and me, despite living under governments that do detestable things. Like it or not, most people don't question things the way you and I do, but rather they follow along the stream. A better economic standard would certainly help the people of Palestine, for one.

estro: I'm rapidly losing interest in this discussion with you. Do you have anything of substance to add?

 

[zomgwtf]

What about the Pro-Israel people? They haven't seen the conflict either. How can they be against Gaza without having been there?

You do know that there are many people on these forums who are/have been part of the armed forces or have family/friends in the armed forces right?

I think what estro is trying to get across to you is that it's easy to bad-talk 'immoral' acts during a war but really, you shouldn't voice your opinion unless you know what your talking about. In the case of war and losing friends etc. that's only something you can learn from experience, not from the biased news sources, or a book.

 

[TubbaBlubba]

You do know that there are many people on these forums who are/have been part of the armed forces or have family/friends in the armed forces right?

I think what estro is trying to get across to you is that it's easy to bad-talk 'immoral' acts during a war but really, you shouldn't voice your opinion unless you know what your talking about. In the case of war and losing friends etc. that's only something you can learn from experience, not from the biased news sources, or a book.

We're talking about the action of states here, however, not individuals. I can't say I know what it is like to have a friend killed, but I do think that having experienced that would give me a biased view against whoever killed him, regardless of their intentions or reasons to.

 

[arildno]

Sigh. I'm tired of this. You CONSTANTLY try to put the blame on the fact that there are LEFTISTS (yep, the conspiracy of communism, it still lives!), because they don't agree with you.

No. I disagree with a lot of people, many of whom are not leftists, and wouldn't call them so.

Well, guess what, the economic problems of the world are caused by RIGHTISTS like yourself!

Care to cite some...EVIDENCE for that?

Oh, I forgot:
You are so noble of mind and pure of heart, that ugly little stuff like..HARD EVIDENCE must be shied away from.

You have exactly the same problems with the Romani in Sweden as well, haven't you?

Note:
I don't KNOW that, I ASSUME that.

Can you furnish some evidence that goes either my way, or that proves that the Romanis of Sweden are largely integrated in the Swedish economy, with roughly the same crime rates as the resident, native population?

 

[estro]

...
estro: I'm rapidly losing interest in this discussion with you. Do you have anything of substance to add?
...

My aim was to rapidly discourage you from discussing things you have no idea about...

 

[TubbaBlubba]

No. I disagree with a lot of people, many of whom are not leftists, and wouldn't call them so.

Care to cite some...EVIDENCE for that?

Oh, I forgot:
You are so noble of mind and pure of heart, that ugly little stuff like..HARD EVIDENCE must be shied away from.

You have exactly the same problems with the Romani in Sweden as well, haven't you?

Note:
I don't KNOW that, I ASSUME that.

Can you furnish some evidence that goes either my way, or that proves that the Romanis of Sweden are largely integrated in the Swedish economy, with roughly the same crime rates as the resident, native population?

Not exactly sure how it currently is, it's not a subject very often touched upon (for whatever reason). I do know that they are frequently seen begging, and that at least some years ago theft was a large problem. I doubt we've been successfull in integrating them. So no, I do not have any "evidence" to furnish upon.

estro: And from the look of things I have no idea about it because I disagree with you. Good going.