What were the consequences of Israel's attack on the Gaza Aid Flotilla?

[arildno]

As long as Muslim radicals will walk the Earth as Muslim integers, I fear the only solution is making them imaginary...

Do, however, remember, that Jacques Lacan has developed the insight that the imaginary unit is nothing but the "joie de vivre" displayed by the erect male member..

 

[estro]

Do, however, remember, that Jacques Lacan has developed the insight that the imaginary unit is nothing but the "joie de vivre" displayed by the erect male member..

So we should consider more radical aproach...
Or the real one?

 

[arildno]

Hmm..peaceful integration is not always possible.

Should we differentiate our approach instead?

 

[estro]

Hmm..peaceful integration is not always possible.

Should we differentiate our approach instead?

Since I always have problems with integration, differentiation seems to me as appropriate...
Now I'll try to get my way in politics and suggest the idea in our parliament...

Can you suggest a name to my new political party?

 

[arildno]

Since I always have problems with integration, differentiation seems to me as appropriate...

Yes, integration is an art, differentiation just a craft.

It will likely be one or two sharp corners/cusps we encounter, but then again, we shouldn't be so naive to think that everything will function smoothly..

 

[arildno]

Can you suggest a name to my new political party?

Heaviside, perhaps?

 

[estro]

...
It will likely be one or two sharp corners/cusps we encounter, but then again, we shouldn't be so naive to think that everything will function smoothly..

Can't we just redefine problematic points, and make them nice?

 

[TubbaBlubba]

The Quran is to be learned by heart, by memorizing its intonations and exact wordings. That is not the same as developing literacy.

Only the Maltese, and West Saharans, have archaic Arab languages in which the Quran's language is familiar speech.

While I, as a Norwegian, have a hazy, intuitive semi-understanding of Old Norse, it is only Scandinavians of Icelandic or Føreyar background whose present day language is close enough to Old Norse to understand it fully, without special study.

Same with most present-day speakers of Arabic, I think, with the exception of the two groups mentioned.

From what I've heard from people from Iran (Their Persian language differs a good deal from Arabic) they basically had to memorize the entire Qu'ran, but never learned to say "Hello" in Arabic.

 

[arildno]

Can't we just redefine problematic points, and make them nice?

By re-normalization techniques, or by the method of steepest descent?

 

[arildno]

From what I've heard from people from Iran (Their Persian language differs a good deal from Arabic) they basically had to memorize the entire Qu'ran, but never learned to say "Hello" in Arabic.

Correct.
The same is true of Pakistanis, Muslim Indonesians and so on.
I think it has a withering effect upon the brain, by having to learn what feels like complete mumbo-jumbo by heart.
And that is, perhaps, the intention, of modern day clerics?

Through that mechanism, the "Words of God" get a magical feel to them, that even if they are not understood will be taboo to criticize.

Just a speculation, that..

 

[estro]

From other thread;

Sup. I'm 17 y.o. high school student.

Although myself is only 23 years old, I think it will be wise to delay expressing your political outlook until you have a little more life experience...
Before gaining military experience (3 years) and losing friends, I had the same lovely pink glasses as you have.

 

[TubbaBlubba]

From other thread;Although myself is only 23 years old, I think it will be wise to delay expressing your political outlook until you have a little more life experience...
Before gaining military experience (3 years) and losing friends, I had the same lovely pink glasses as you have.

Sorry, but you don't know me, what experiences I have or my outlook on the world. I'm certainly not going to do any military service (I have physiological reasons, and I'm a general opposer of the military anyway). Of course my opinion will change with the years, but you have no right to accuse me of being "too young to understand", or whatever you're trying to imply.

So QUIT THE FREAKING AD HOMINEM.

 

[arildno]

So QUIT THE FREAKING AD HOMINEM.

No.

Only those who back up their statements&opinions by facts&logic are immunized from ad hominem.

Those who refuse to furnish facts, and "argue" merely from their emotions, are undeserving of immunity from ad hominem.

 

[TubbaBlubba]

While I certainly admit that I am sometimes too quick to judge, and perhaps do not always affirm the facts, your constant "You're an evil leftists and you're destroying the world" certainly isn't helping.

 

[HossamCFD]

I see that most of you guys have reached a consensus to blame the flotilla activists and, as usual, support Israel unconditionally. I have no problem with that, I just wonder if some of you would be interested in hearing the other side of the argument.

this link could be an example

 

[estro]

I see that most of you guys have reached a consensus to blame the flotilla activists and, as usual, support Israel unconditionally. I have no problem with that, I just wonder if some of you would be interested in hearing the other side of the argument.

this link could be an example

And this is the actual side of the argument...
http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/g.p...=55#gallerytop


You are from Egypt right? Are you aware that Egypt had the same blockade on Gaza until yesterday?
It's laughable...

 

[OmCheeto]

While I certainly admit that I am sometimes too quick to judge, and perhaps do not always affirm the facts, your constant "You're an evil leftists and you're destroying the world" certainly isn't helping.

It's not a bad thing to be compassionate for people you think might be oppressed. It is a bad thing to ignore the facts though. And it's even worse, if you ignore the facts.*

23 May 2010. 8 days prior to the "incident".

hmmm... Where shall we let all the Israelis live then, if not in Israel? Should the US invite them all here?
I support the humanitarian efforts of this group from 50 nations, but I think that Israel would not be so brutal if the people of Gaza would simply stop lobbing mortar shells at them.

Palestinian rocket and mortar attacks on Israel from the Gaza Strip have occurred since 2001. As of January 2009, over 8,600 rockets had been launched

Seems like a wars been going on for quite a while. Perhaps they should just make it official and go ahead and kill each other.

Then we'll have Salam. Until of course the Arabs and Persians start at it again.

hmmm... I wonder what Muhammad, Jesus, and Abraham would have to say about the situation.

*intended

 

[TubbaBlubba]

What are the comparative death tolls between 2001 and 2009?

 

[HossamCFD]

You are from Egypt right? Do you aware that Egypt had the same blockade on Gaza until yesterday?
It's laughable...

Yes I am well aware of it (actually it was open 3 days ago not yesterday). but may I ask why is it laughable ?! Just because I am Egyptian doesn't mean I support my government's actions all the way. seems a strange logic to you right ?! perhaps you should try to use this logic sometimes.

And by the way, what on Earth is the ACTUAL side of the argument? I mean you can believe whatever makes you happy but don't call it THE ACTUAL just because you believe in it. Doesn't seem like an objective way of debating

 

[TubbaBlubba]

Tubba, he's not saying that, he's saying that 6 years on you, and 3 of military service in the region has taught him a lesson he feels you are yet to learn. I don't see that as "you're destroying the world", but just what he said, that you still have blinders on.

That was referring to arildno. He's been making comments in the style of "Leftists like you are ruining/allowing/whatevering this and that" all over.

As for me having blinders on, that's simply due to biased interpretation of what I have said. I certainly realize that the situation is dreadfull.

Also, listening to the statement of that Turk, the flashbang might have been tossed by the IDF and then tossed back or missed. We don't know.There's also another side of it - The Mavi was the ship with the transmissioners on it, which of course Israel were intent to destroy in favour of only them being allowed to distribute information. This might be the reason the ones on board were intent on defending it, and also a motivation for the IDF to use "excessive" force.

 

[arildno]

Just because I am Egyptian doesn't mean I support my government's actions all the way.

Psst..have you heard of..Copts?

 

[estro]

Yes I am well aware of it (actually it was open 3 days ago not yesterday). but may I ask why is it laughable ?! Just because I am Egyptian doesn't mean I support my government's actions all the way. seems a strange logic to you right ?! perhaps you should try to use this logic sometimes.

And by the way, what on Earth is the ACTUAL side of the argument? I mean you can believe whatever makes you happy but don't call it THE ACTUAL just because you believe in it. Doesn't seem like an objective way of debating

ACTUAL side = videos and pictures of what ACTUALLY happened.
ACTUAL side != dramatic and fabricated lies.

And now between us, my Egyptian friend and neighbor - Do you remember the Darfur refugees, and what the Egyptian police did to them?
Why I never seen the Egyptian (or any other Nation) people rise against it?

 

[HossamCFD]

Do you remember the Darfur refugees, and what the Egyptian police did to them?
Why I never seen the Egyptian (or any other Nation) people rise against it?

I can see that this will be transformed into a debate about my nationality, anyway, no one would ever criticize the Egyptian police like the Egyptians themselves. Be my guest, say whatever you want, I won't be defending them. Actually, you would never criticize them as much as I would. We have a president that is ruling since 30 years and claiming that this is a democratic country, remember ?!. Why you never seen the Egyptian people rise against it ?! well, it's hard to see Egyptians rising against anything If the police is oppressing any demonstration that he wouldn't allow. By the way, may it be just a coincidence that our dictator president that is ruling for 30 years is the closest friend to Israel ?! just wondering

By the way, edited and incomplete videos released from only one side while eliminating the other videos doesn't seem ACTUAL to me. multiple testaments by those who witnessed the action may do.

 

[HossamCFD]

Psst..have you heard of..Copts?

And ... ? I really can't see your point, and how would it be relevant

Also, for your information (or the lack of it), copts means the Egyptians, It is wrongfully ascribed to the major sects of orthodox christians in Egypt to give the impression that the christians are the indigenous egyptians while the muslims are arab outsiders, something that is easily refuted logically and historically. I am a coptic muslim

 

[OmCheeto]

What are the comparative death tolls between 2001 and 2009?

Deaths due to Pearl Harbor attack: 2,350
Subsequent Japanese deaths: 2,700,000

Significant deaths on 28 June 1914: 1
Deaths resulting: ~80,000,000*

Sometimes it's not about the numbers.
It's about who's going to decide that the next rock/mortar/rocket/missile/nuke does not get thrown.


*argument over this number should probably take place somewhere else. I'm simply trying to make a point.

 

[estro]

...
We have a president that is ruling since 30 years and claiming that this is a democratic country, remember ?!

By the way, edited and incomplete videos released from only one side while eliminating the other videos doesn't seem ACTUAL to me. multiple testaments by those who witnessed the action may do.

Now think why Mubarak is still in power, maybe it's Israel fault?(Although we did build for you the pyramids) No I think it's Egyptians fault...

If Mubarak was Israel closest friend, I fear my nation was in real trouble...

The problem is not "edited" videos, but blind (full of hatred) minds...

 

[zomgwtf]

Deaths due to Pearl Harbor attack: 2,350
Subsequent Japanese deaths: 2,700,000

Significant deaths on 28 June 1914: 1
Deaths resulting: ~80,000,000*

Sometimes it's not about the numbers.
It's about who's going to decide that the next rock/mortar/rocket/missile/nuke does not get thrown.


*argument over this number should probably take place somewhere else. I'm simply trying to make a point.

I agree completely with this statement. The numbers mean nothing it's the intentions. Just because a nation is weaker and doesn't have a powerfull military doesn't mean that it has a right to constantly push a larger nations buttons. Eventually that nation will crack and will decide that 'that's enough' and there will be MANY people from that nation that are willing to die to protect the future of their nation to ensure that the future people never have to endure what they lived through. This is a common theme in ALL wars the only difference I can see between Israel and the other nations is that Israel is actually restraining itself rather than completely destroying and conquering the Palestinian territories.
I feel confident that if Israel had started a war to conquer Gaza there would be a lot of 'loud bickering' coming from certain communities but I highly doubt any unified international support would have been given to Gaza.

Again for those people living in developed parts of the world. Can you honestly say that you would wish your nation would be 'kind and tolerant' of a neigbour nation that acted out towards you the same way the Palestinians have? I mean it's not even JUST the Palestinians, Israel has had to deal with nearly ever Arab nation and military around it... during the Gulf war it even had Iraq BOMBING the hell out of Israel, yet Israel refused to retaliate or get involved.

 

[TubbaBlubba]

Deaths due to Pearl Harbor attack: 2,350
Subsequent Japanese deaths: 2,700,000

Significant deaths on 28 June 1914: 1
Deaths resulting: ~80,000,000*

Sometimes it's not about the numbers.
It's about who's going to decide that the next rock/mortar/rocket/missile/nuke does not get thrown.*argument over this number should probably take place somewhere else. I'm simply trying to make a point.

1. The Japanese had been waging war against China for what, ten years by that point. It's just that we tend to ignore the Sino-Japanese war.
2. Franz Ferdinand's murder was not the only trigger for the great war.

So I'm sorry, but I don't follow your logic. Retaliation should always be proportional... and preferably not against civillians.I'm not saying Israel should tolerate the bombings, but I don't think that killing civilians will solve the long-term problem.

 

[arildno]

Just because I am Egyptian doesn't mean I support my government's actions all the way. seems a strange logic to you right ?!

Psst..have you heard of..Copts?

And ... ? I really can't see your point, and how would it be relevant

No, how could that possibly be related to your comment??

I am a coptic muslim

Indeed.

 

[arildno]

Retaliation should always be proportional..

No, first and foremost is that the retaliation shall be effective.

Then, among possible effective measures (of those there might be many or few), one is to choose the one causing least unnecessary damage.

You are NOT to pick an INEFFECTIVE measure just because it seems "proportional" to you.

 

[OmCheeto]

The problem is not "edited" videos, but blind (full of hatred) minds...

This is why I stopped posting on Al Jazeera-Facebook threads after the incident.

God alone could bring light into those black, ignorant, seething masses of hate filled messages.

 

[HossamCFD]

(Although we did build for you the pyramids)

I really don't know if you are serious about this or just joking. In case you are serious (which I hope not as this would be the stupidest thing I heard on PF). The pyramids were built in the Third and fourth dynasty around 2650-2575 BC and 2575-2467 BC. the jews, or else, their ancestors the Hebrews, did not even exist until centuries after that, let alone coming to Egypt.

I think some guys need to learn some history.

 

[zomgwtf]

No, first and foremost is that the retaliation shall be effective.

Then, among possible effective measures (of those there might be many or few), one is to choose the one causing least unnecessary damage.

You are NOT to pick an INEFFECTIVE measure just because it seems "proportional" to you.

Exactly, but this just isn't something you're going to convince a ideological teenager of, especially one that lives is a very nice and developed nation . Some people truly believe all the worlds problems are 'non-sense' and never require fighting... there's always 'another better route that doesn't involve deaths'. 10% of the time, this may be the case... the majority of the time though... I'm highly skeptical.

Nothing in war needs to be proportional. A MAJOR component of war theory is exactly the opposite actually, intentionally make things unproportional IN YOUR FAVOUR so you can win the damned thing. I suggest people on these forums read a few notable philosophers on war. Starting with the classics: Sun Tzu "The Art of War' and von Clausewitz "On War". You could then move into more complex theories of modern warfare after you understand the basics.

 

[zomgwtf]

I think some guys need to learn some history.

Why plural?

 

[arildno]

Nothing in war needs to be proportional. A MAJOR component of war theory is exactly the opposite actually, intentionally make things unproportional IN YOUR FAVOUR so you can win the damned thing. I suggest people on these forums read a few notable philosophers on war. Starting with the classics: Sun Tzu "The Art of War' and von Clausewitz "On War". You could then move into more complex theories of modern warfare after you understand the basics.

Or, as I have done, studied the..Romans.

They knew how to hammer out an empire, and keep it for say, 600 years.

The reason for their being able to do that has very much to do with their treatment of, for example, the Carthaginians, Iberians, Celts in Gaul and Dacians.

Not a very nice, unbloody story, but one of cold, cost-effective rationality.