Which logical fallacies are these?

[27Thousand]

Right over to everyone else, I give up. This is over thinking and complication if I've ever seen it.

Okay Jared, so that you can understand my perspective, if someone told you that others here may also be thinking the same thing, and that you have to be creative by coming up with an idea that no one else has ever thought of, wouldn't that response drive you crazy? So that's why I felt discredited as a human being in those situations. No one thinks out of a vacuum, and most responses aren't ideas that no one has ever thought of. So if someone discredited you that way, then you'd understand where I'm coming from.

 

[JaredJames]

Why would that bother you? I'm spending four years in university to learn how to apply the knowledge gained to a job. I am taught what others discovered, I am not required to do any more than understand it. In a job (for me it would be engineering related) I may be expected to come up with solutions to unique situations, and so creative thinking would be required. If someone told me to be creative and think of something new and unique I would see this as a challenge and would take it in my stride. These people obviously expect me to be coming up with new ideas and by asking me, they clearly feel I am clever enough and creative enough to do so. In a job, as I said above, it can be expected of you.
All through school I was told to 'think outside the box'.

These people obviously expect original ideas from you. They expect you to come up with more creative ideas. Surely that just means they think highly of you? But your answer sounded silly to them (as pointed out before, it obviously wasn't what they expected) and so they mock you for it. Could say self inflicted.

You are over complicating this and putting far too much thought into it. As pointed out before, people don't want a textbook psych response if they aren't your peers they want a witty repsonse or something.

All of this and you could have summarised into two and a half lines of text that is easy to grasp what you want.

 

[protonchain]

So how would you feel if someone asks you a question, then you give an answer where you use something that you learned/makes sense to you in an out of the ordinary way, but still works, then the person who asked you said you weren't being creative and then gave an average Joe answer instead?

You hear the average Joe say all the time, "He's tired." In a class where you learn about operant conditioning, the response I gave was an example that people don't usually associate with operant conditioning. It may not be entertaining, but it's not a usual operant conditioning answer.

An invention shouldn't only be creative, it also needs to work. A scientific discovery also needs to work. The operant conditioning answer I gave can be tested. Also for something to be creative, I could be wrong, but it's not supposed to be copying what others say. Isn't "He's tired" more likely to be your typical response? My answer may not have been funny, but how was it less original (more thinking for myself involved) than his response? Anyway, that's not the point. I just feel he's discrediting me as a human being. If each time you give an answer when someone asks for it, how would you feel if they always said, "Be creative, not from a book"? If you said, "I think politics should be this way, because such and such happened in the past," him, "Be creative, and not from a book. Such and such happening in the past is from a book! Think out of a vacuum."

Do you see where I'm coming from?

I know my friends and know exactly what kind of responses they want. In fact I tailor my jokes around to suit their sense of humor. My friend John likes random blunt statements. My other friend Chris likes more witty but at the same time random statements and will laugh at anything that John is usually laughing at. My Indian friend Mandeep likes more jokes about imitation and real life blunt frank truth.

So when I hang with them, I'm almost always joking, there's almost never a moment when I'm serious with my responses. They are after all, friends. If this was my mentor I would be both serious and humorous (since he's also an insanely funny guy).

This is why I don't understand your sense of logic. I don't understand where you're coming from, because when someone asks me these sorts of questions, they expect a witty or stupidly funny response. Thats what your friends are expecting from you. They're not homework, they're not your exams, they're not your lecture discussion group. They want to have fun, and they want you to use your intellect to come up with a witty or creative response, not just regurgitate stuff you learned from lectures.

You need to open your mind, you're restricting yourself to the boundaries of your field of interest. While it is impressive that you have an ambition, a goal, and are motivated to pursue this field, it is not impressive to friends, who are looking to have fun. You need to relax, you need to think creatively, you need to watch stand up comedy and learn and admire. If you like taking ideas from others and applying it, try applying stand up comedians' jokes through your own brain and logic, and I'm sure your friends will appreciate that.

 

[Ophiolite]

Firstly, I have to agree with pretty much everything Jared, proton and Dave have said here. Yet none of us seem to be able to get through to you. I'll give it another shot with some random hits.

Okay Jared, so that you can understand my perspective, if someone told you that others here may also be thinking the same thing, and that you have to be creative by coming up with an idea that no one else has ever thought of, wouldn't that response drive you crazy?

Excuse the profanity, but why the **** would it drive me crazy? On the other hand, your response is driving me crazy since you seem utterly focused on being accepted by chance strangers (that's what roommates are) on your own terms.

You claimed in an earlier response that your 'operant conditioning' answer was not egocentric. Get real. Someone asks you a basic question and you reply with something specifically related to your classwork and your interest. You can't get much more egocentric.

So that's why I felt discredited as a human being in those situations. No one thinks out of a vacuum, and most responses aren't ideas that no one has ever thought of. So if someone discredited you that way, then you'd understand where I'm coming from.

Here is what you need to do. Grow up. It is a painful process, but necessary and most people eventually manage it. You cannot be loved by everyone. You cannot be admired by everyone. You certainly can't achieve this if you insist it be done on your terms.

No one can discredit you as a human being except yourself. So stop reading that interpretation into your friends' remarks.

If you must give intense, 'creative' answers then try giving multi-level answers. On one level they satisfy the mundane, objective expectation. On another level they address your desire to be inventive.

In your own example it could go like this.
Roommate: "Why did Fred go upstairs."
You: "Smooth operator Fred? I think he's trying to get into condition."

Your roommate gets a 'normal' response and you can sit there smugly knowing you've worked in the idea of operant conditioning into your answer. As a student and in my early twenties I used to delight in saying things that would mean three different things to different members of the group I was talking to. That wore off when I no longer needed to feel superior.

 

[Blenton]

Anyone who says "LOL" shouldn't be listened to anyway!

It is a new voice for the young. You will have to live with it in the coming years.

 

[JaredJames]

It is a new voice for the young. You will have to live with it in the coming years.

Just to point out, the OP specified it was him that used LOL to describe the person laughing. But yes, I agree with you. I hate the phrase, you will never see me using it in conversation (online/offline unless quoting someone). The way some people use it you'd think they spent the whole of their time laughing. Anyhow, yeah it's a new thing people will have to get used to. Still won't see me using it though.

Right, cheers Ophiolite, Dave and Proton for the responses, I agree totally with them and hopefully 27thousand will grasp it soon.

27thousand, you are a psych student (from what I gather) and you seem to like to apply your knowledge and understand everything. I would have thought that this would be a perfect situation for you to do this and you should have been able to work this out for yourself. Thinking about why they say those things and trying to 'conceptualize' the reasons for it (consider the situations you were in when they happened and what you could have done wrong to warrant the response). That would be applying your knowledge to real life situations and would allow you to come up with your own reason as to why they do it. And how you can solve it.

Just please try to understand what we are saying. You overthink even the simplest of situations and even though you consider your response perfectly valid, it does not make it so. In a group of peers by all means, go for it, give the technical answers and impress them, spark up conversation on it. But in a social situation with friends/housemates or anyone not in your field, you should go for the response they want. A comical one, a simple 'common sense' one etc.

 

[DaveC426913]

It is a new voice for the young. You will have to live with it in the coming years.

But it makes one wonder why 27K can so easily roll with that yet takes every OTHER thing his roommates say so seriously.

27K: your roommates cannot make you feel discredited as a human being. What they can do is find a wekaness in your own self-confidence and tease you about it unmercifully.

 

[JaredJames]

But it makes one wonder why 27K can so easily roll with that yet takes every OTHER thing his roommates say so seriously.

27K: your roommates cannot make you feel discredited as a human being. What they can do is find a wekaness in your own self-confidence and tease you about it unmercifully.

I think the fact the guy laughed shows he is joking or messing around.

 

[MissSilvy]

Holy hell. I have never seen such useless worrying. Who gives a rat's *** what they were 'trying to tell [you] to do'? They sound like morons anyways, and hardly deserving of a kick in the boot, much less that massive, weird rant you just posted against them.

 

[AUMathTutor]

What an unoriginal thread topic. Seriously, to the OP... try to be more creative or something. Jeez.

 

[DaveC426913]

What an unoriginal thread topic. Seriously, to the OP... try to be more creative or something. Jeez.

You guys are awful.

 

[27Thousand]

Do you know what conceptualise means? I've read the definition and I'm not sure it fits exactly into what you want it to. (That's just my interpretation of the definition, someone correct me if I'm wrong).

"Conceptualize" means to turn into a concept. The dictionary says to think about something in a way that's conceptual. So rather than seeing route details, you see "concepts". So when I said I was trying to conceptualize my world, I was trying to think intuitively about things. Yes I agree, the phrase "I'm just trying to conceptualize the world around me" isn't very advanced, but it was still my real feelings. If he didn't like the wording, why didn't he just say, "Although I think it's good to understand things, I don't like how you just worded that," rather than say, "Not from a book"? If he didn't like that I was trying to understand things, why didn't he just say that rather than saying not from a book? Those were my real thoughts/feelings.

Since it was a phrase that popped up in my head without thinking much about it, that's why I said I thought he was discrediting me as a person. One of the reasons I brought example up on this forum is because I thought it would be obvious to others that it wasn't from a book, and I'm trying to figure out for myself what to say in the future if someone dismisses my thoughts in that manner. I wasn't concerned that he didn't agree with what my thoughts were, but rather said it wasn't my own idea, as a way to dismiss what I was saying. I mean, what would you think if you posted a question or stated a speculation about physics, and rather than others saying they don't like your thought, they say "Not from a book, come up with your own idea", when in reality it is a thought you're thinking? Even if your thought isn't very advanced, wouldn't you just rather have them say they don't like your idea or why they don't agree with it?

 

[JaredJames]

Just read the previous posts. Why the **** does it matter? He was mocking you. You overthink and take things far too seriously. Your responses for the situations are far too complicated and unrequired. Why did you feel the need to give him the speech when the guy went upstairs instead of just saying "to the toilet" of something? Can you not see it? He is taking the **** as you are being far too serious in situations which don't require it. You are being 'nerdy'. You are giving them the reasons to mock you.

 

[physicsdude30]

Do you ever get the feeling that people tell you not to think for yourself? How do you personally deal with situations like these? :

1. When I was a kid, I would watch a Science show where they'd use the phrase "Understanding the World Around You." So then I made "my own" phrase, "Conceptualize the world around you." I never read that from a book, I made that phrase up on my own. So decades later, I was with roommates at college. When talking with one of the roommates, I said, "Oh, I'm just trying to 'conceptualize' the world around me." He said, "Uh uh uh, not from a book, LOL!" Then I said, "That's not from a book!" Him, "Not from a book, LOL!" Any intelligent person knows that's not from a book, and I felt like he was trying to say I can't have any thoughts or feelings of my own since everything is automatically from a book. I mean, how would you respond if someone told you that you can't go to the grocery store because it's found in a dictionary? Then later that day, he was like, "I'm going to be creative, LOL." Then he quoted some lines from the movie Princess Bride. I don't understand, you hear people all the time quote lines from Princess Bride/other movies and I'm pretty sure they're found in a book. Why is "Conceptualize the world around me" any worse, when I haven't seen it in a book? Am I wrong if something doesn't seem right here?

2. Another time I saw one of my roommates walking up the stairs. I thought to myself that if each time he made it half way up the stairs and it put him back at the bottom again, he probably would give up eventually, "operant conditioning extinction". Then the roommate who earlier said not from a book asked me why the other roommate went up the stairs. I was taking a behavioral analysis class that semester and was trying to apply what I was learning in out of the ordinary situations. I said, "He took the first step up the stairs because it was reinforced by the opportunity to take a step up the next stair which was reinforced by the opportunity for the next stair, creating a chaining behavior to get to the top and into his bedroom." My roommate responded, "That's not creative! Be creative! LOL" Me, "What do you think is creative?" Him, "He was tired, that's why he went up the stairs." I don't get it, you hear people all the time say that such and such is tired? If I want to apply what I learn in unusual ways, why is that being less original then someone giving typical layman responses? Do you ever try to apply what you learn? Does that mean you should forget everything you know so that you can be creative? I felt like he was saying that I shouldn't have any thoughts or feelings. If someone told you not to eat breakfeast because others have thought of breakfeast before and you need to be creative, what would you think? I could be wrong, but didn't Einstein say he wasn't trying create, but rather make new discoveries?

3. One last situation, but first some background information: In my A.P. high school psychology class, we learned that there used to be some people who believed evil spirits caused mental disorders. They then would drill holes in the heads of the person acting crazy and it would make them stop acting weird, in reality brain damage, so they thought that it released the evil spirits and so called "confirmed what they believed". So years later, with these same roommates, one of them asked me what I thought the main weakness of the scientific method was. Me, "It's always possible that there is another theory out there that can explain the same exact evidence better." Him, "Well, all you have to do is rule out all other theories." Then I said no matter how hard you try it's always possible there's another possibility, and made up my own example, using how they thought there were evil spirits, etc, and how you could hypothetically set up an experiment saying, "If the theory that evil spirits are causing it is true, then we'd predict the observation of drilling in their heads will release the evil spirits causing them to stop acting weird. However, you wouldn't prove because the better explanation would be that there was really brain damage, which they weren't able to find out until hundreds of years later." (I never saw that example from a book) Then my roommate said, "Nope, not from a book." Me, "That's not from a book, I made up that example myself!" Him, "Not from a book! Anyway, the weakness of the Scientific Method is that you come up with a null hypothesis, and it's always possible that the null may be true." That seemed unfair, because you hear about the null hypothesis all the time in college textbooks, and scientific theories change more often because they find a better theory for the evidence rather than finding out the null is true. Then later he was talking about a study where they found people are more attracted to symmetrical faces, and you hear about those studies all the time from "books".

I don't understand? I could be wrong, but why does a "book" matter? Galileo said the world revolved around the sun, but that wasn't his idea. He "read" about it from Copernicus, "from a book", and then worked it out for himself. Does that mean he was a bad person?

Are there any logical fallacies/flaws in thinking? How do you have better communication in these situations?

First of all, Albert Einstein said he wasn't trying to create the world, but rather discover it. You are right on that one dude. Galileo said he didn't just care about being creative, but also wanted to understand things for himself.

Okay, now let's see how a reasonable person thinks.

First example: You're right. If he says that you can't have any thoughts or feelings of your own because every human thought is found in a book, then I don't know why he thinks he's that intelligent. You're correct, Princess Bride is often quoted, making him a just fulfilling the status quo maniac. ;) I've also never heard someone use the phrase conceptualize the world around them before. So I wouldn't put your trust in his intelligence. You're screwed up socially, and he's screwed up in creativity!

Example two: He says the other dude was tired? Hmmm... Yes people do say that all the time, maintaining the status quo. I even say it myself. You applied what you learned from college in a unique, even if socially awkward, way. A lot of creative genius are great at brainstorming and coming up with far out ideas. Your reinforcing steps example also seems to work when you try the thought experiment route. Ask your roommate what he thinks about figuring things out for himself!

Third example: Every intelligent person who breathes knows the null hypothesis is found in a book. The hypothetical experiment you gave is not found in a book. If anything, I'd say the problem was it was too far out in left field and not in a book. Therefore, a reasonable and thinking person would say your roommate is not intelligent enough to even realize his error!

Fast food services seems to be a future career goal for your roommate, as well as it should be!

 

[JaredJames]

Wow physics dude30, it's like you joined the forum just to reply (and give support) to this thread...
You sure you're not 27thousand in disguise?

Anyhow, the roommate didn't state he shouldn't have thoughts and feelings of his own, 27thousand simply took that to be what he meant. Clearly overthinking the situation, the roommate was simply mocking him. Why does the roommate intelligence come into this? I'm doing a degree in engineering and think this is utter rubbish what the OP is talking about. I don't consider myself a genius, far from it, but I would certainly say I am somewhat intelligent.

What's all this status quo stuff? If someone asks "why did he go upstairs" and all they wanted to know was the reason, aka "to sleep" they don't want and certainly won't appreciate a long-winded textbook psych reply (possibly might if they are in the same field as you).

How was his reply too far out? His 'hypothetical experiment' was no experiment, it was a brief description of the scientific method over the years. They first believed drilling 'released the evil spirits', and then when better technology and new ideas came out it was realized that it simply causes brain damage. That is how it happened. That is how they discovered it. There is nothing "not found in a book" about it. I don't even see the experiment, I just see a description of the discovery it causes brain damage not releases spirits. Nothing "far too left field". Or am I misunderstanding the OP?

Well apparently, unless you think 27thousands overthinking and inability to adjust to different social situations (differentiating between being with peers and friends) is great and his way of looking at the responses given by the roommates is correct, you are going to work in a fast food joint!

Stupidest statement I've seen in a while, even for me.

I still think it's 27thousand, seems a strange response and a weird thread to sign up to post in (I noticed no other posts by this person except this one).

 

[27Thousand]

First of all, Albert Einstein said he wasn't trying to create the world, but rather discover it. You are right on that one dude. Galileo said he didn't just care about being creative, but also wanted to understand things for himself.

Okay, now let's see how a reasonable person thinks.

First example: You're right. If he says that you can't have any thoughts or feelings of your own because every human thought is found in a book, then I don't know why he thinks he's that intelligent. You're correct, Princess Bride is often quoted, making him a just fulfilling the status quo maniac. ;) I've also never heard someone use the phrase conceptualize the world around them before. So I wouldn't put your trust in his intelligence. You're screwed up socially, and he's screwed up in creativity!

Example two: He says the other dude was tired? Hmmm... Yes people do say that all the time, maintaining the status quo. I even say it myself. You applied what you learned from college in a unique, even if socially awkward, way. A lot of creative genius are great at brainstorming and coming up with far out ideas. Your reinforcing steps example also seems to work when you try the thought experiment route. Ask your roommate what he thinks about figuring things out for himself!

Third example: Every intelligent person who breathes knows the null hypothesis is found in a book. The hypothetical experiment you gave is not found in a book. If anything, I'd say the problem was it was too far out in left field and not in a book. Therefore, a reasonable and thinking person would say your roommate is not intelligent enough to even realize his error!

Fast food services seems to be a future career goal for your roommate, as well as it should be!

Finally, someone is finally smart enough to realize that it's not from a book!

 

[27Thousand]

How was his reply too far out? His 'hypothetical experiment' was no experiment, it was a brief description of the scientific method over the years.

Says who? Where are your sources this scientific method experiment actually happened? All my sources say it didn't. I think I agree with the other user that my example three was too far in left field.

I took a historical event that I never saw in a book, but rather had heard from another person (so I don't even know if it happened). Then using imaginative play, I made up a hypothetical experiment out of it, making up a control and experimental group. I thought to myself that this could be a possibility of how the scientific method could go wrong, since you can always find an alternative theory that explains the evidence better. Since the experiment was never performed, but just my imagination, I don't know why you say it was real? No scientist would ever dream of making an experiment like that. I've never ever heard anyone using that example of how the scientific method can go wrong. The example I made up is too cheesy to be from a book. Why are you still saying I'm just quoting a book?

I'm doing a degree in engineering and think this is utter rubbish what the OP is talking about.

And it's "utter rubbish" that my personal thought at the time "I'm just trying to conceptualize the world around me" and the drilling holes in the head experiment are found in books! The hypothetical experiment from example three is too cheesy to be found in a book! I'm still not understanding why you're actually under the impression that it's found in a book? I think that's very strange. I also think it's bizarre that you think I'm other people on this thread. I don't get why you think the null hypothesis answer my roommate gave is not in a book, and less from a book? Given the context that he talked about the null, why was my answer socially inappropriate? Especially when he asked me himself what the main weakness of the scientific method is?

 

[27Thousand]

If you must give intense, 'creative' answers then try giving multi-level answers. On one level they satisfy the mundane, objective expectation. On another level they address your desire to be inventive.

I like your answer of multi-level answers. I think that's good.

I just don't understand why you guys even think my examples 1 and 3 are from books? I made them up myself, without any books. Example three, the context of the situation is my roommate's answer used the null hypothesis, which is scholarly and from a book. You hear people say the null hypothesis possibly being true is a weakness of the scientific method all the time. Later he even brought up studies about symmetrical faces being seen as more attractive, which is from a book. I don't understand why you think my answer for example three was from a book, and not appropriate for the context?

 

[DaveC426913]

Is this thread about how your roommates were treating you, or is this thread about your ideas and whether they came from a book?

Can you please restate the primary question?

 

[27Thousand]

This is why I don't understand your sense of logic...not just regurgitate stuff you learned from lectures.

I still don't understand why you think examples 1 & 3 is material regurgitated? Which lecture/book is "conceptualize the world around me" from? Example three, where's that hypothetical experiment from (which doesn't exist, but just my imaginative play)? The historical event, of drilling in the holes, which I changed around, which book is that from? Given the response my roommate gave in example three, using the null hypothesis, why was my response less an idea that I actually thought of/socially inappropriate? Why wouldn't I feel dismissed as a person? Was example one really that socially inappropriate? How do you know if something is found in a book, especially if you know for sure you've never seen it in a book? If I get a glass of water, do I tell myself I can't do that because it could possibly be from a book, and I don't know for sure? Do you see my train of thought?

 

[27Thousand]

Is this thread about how your roommates were treating you, or is this thread about your ideas and whether they came from a book?

Can you please restate the primary question?

Mostly if they came from a book. Then secondly, how I could then let them know it's not really from a book, and letting them know that in a socially appropriate way. I know that many may not agree with the ideas I said in the three examples, and they're not necessarily profound (many creative people keep on brainstorming until something good actually comes up). I just am looking for ideas on how to let people know an idea is something I thought actually thought up, rather than regurgitated, when that's the case. And yes, I know I can work on making things more entertaining, but I don't think not entertaining means that I'm not actually thinking of an idea myself.

I know that example number two may have been overbearing socially, and I probably shouldn't have brought that particular one out of the three up, but I don't think I was mindlessly speaking to them.

So in other words, yes if it is from a book, and how to have better interpersonal communication skills in letting someone know something is an idea I thought of, even if they may not necessarily agree with the idea. I just think something should stand on it's own merits, rather than someone discrediting you because they think you may not be the only person to think of the idea.

 

[DaveC426913]

So in other words, yes if it is from a book, and how to have better interpersonal communication skills in letting someone know something is an idea I thought of, even if they may not necessarily agree with the idea.

OK. On the off-chance your social situation has not changed and is still valid: ask your friend what he is hearing - what clues he is getting specifically - that make him think these ideas are coming from a book as opposed to your own head. How would he recognize that an idea you stated was not from a book?

 

[billiards]

To me "conceptualize the world around you" sounds like something that is probably said thousands of times a day as a passing statement - nobody thought it was good enough to claim as their own - it certainly isn't a profound thing to say.

How do you know if something is found in a book, especially if you know for sure you've never seen it in a book?

Just because you've not seen it in a book before doesn't mean that it cannot possibly be http://books.google.com/books?id=mF...b2_Aw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4".

If I get a glass of water, do I tell myself I can't do that because it could possibly be from a book, and I don't know for sure?

Just because it is in a book doesn't make it bad or wrong.

You know that, I know that, everybody knows that; so what? Is that the reaffirmation that you were after?

 

[27Thousand]

To me "conceptualize the world around you" sounds like something that is probably said thousands of times a day as a passing statement - nobody thought it was good enough to claim as their own - it certainly isn't a profound thing to say.
Just because you've not seen it in a book before doesn't mean that it cannot possibly be http://books.google.com/books?id=mF...b2_Aw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4".
Just because it is in a book doesn't make it bad or wrong.

You know that, I know that, everybody knows that; so what? Is that the reaffirmation that you were after?

I don't think you understand what I said. If you say out loud, "Gosh, I need to go to the grocery store," and someone says, "Nope, not from a book," that's not going to make any sense to you. From my perspective, how was that any different when that roommate said that after I said the phrase? You said "I'm just trying to conceptualize the world around me," isn't very advanced and you hear others say it? So if that's the case, explain why it should matter if I say a phrase like that if that's how I really did feel at the time?

That's why I brought it up as a logical fallacy in this thread, and compared it to not going to the grocery store because it could be found in a book. I just don't understand? That roommate also later on quoted lines from the movie Princess Bride, and people around here quote lines from that movie every once in a while. Since I don't hear people around here saying, "I'm just trying to conceptualize the world around me," why do I have any less permission to say that as a person? Why is it any more from a book? I'm trying to understand?

And like you said, being from a book does not matter. That's why I asked about logical fallacies, and how to let someone know I didn't get it from a book, using interpersonal communication skills.

 

[27Thousand]

How was his reply too far out? His 'hypothetical experiment' was no experiment, it was a brief description of the scientific method over the years. They first believed drilling 'released the evil spirits', and then when better technology and new ideas came out it was realized that it simply causes brain damage. That is how it happened. That is how they discovered it. There is nothing "not found in a book" about it. I don't even see the experiment, I just see a description of the discovery it causes brain damage not releases spirits. Nothing "far too left field". Or am I misunderstanding the OP?

"Or am I misunderstanding the OP?"

Okay Jared, I don't know if this helps. Let me know - let's say you're watching the news with someone. Later you say to them, such and such event happened on the news. Let's say it happened another way, things probably would be different now. If the other person says, "Not from a book," are you going to believe them? Likewise, I take a historical event I heard about from a high school teacher, not in a book, and I can't even say the historical event happened because I like to look at original sources rather than teachers. Then I make up my own hypothetical experiment out of it, and how the hypothetical experiment could go wrong, with control and experimental groups. The hypothetical experiment is not in a book. How is that any more from a book then the thinking hypothetically about the news example? How is that more from a book than my roommate's example of the null hypothesis, when you hear null hypothesis being a concern in Science from books all the time? How is that more from a book then later when he brought up experiments where researchers found that symmetrical faces are more attractive?

 

[seycyrus]

27K

Simple. Your answer to your roomate's question regarding the stairs was entirely and irrevocably incorrect.

He went up the stairs because it was reinforced by the opportunity to use your toothbrush to clean the toilet.

 

[27Thousand]

27K

Simple. Your answer to your roomate's question regarding the stairs was entirely and irrevocably incorrect.

He went up the stairs because it was reinforced by the opportunity to use your toothbrush to clean the toilet.

seycyrus, naughty! naughty! Remember we've been told "not from a book"! Stairs is from a book! Toothbrush is from a book! You're only applying/regurgitating what you learned from "the book".

Is it just me, or does anyone else here see how ridiculous it is to say it's from a book? I don't understand why examples 1 and 3 are any more from a book?

Can anyone here please explain to everyone else how irrational this is?

 

[DaveC426913]

Is it just me, or does anyone else here see how ridiculous it is to say it's from a book? I don't understand why examples 1 and 3 are any more from a book?

Why are you putting so much meaning into what these roommates say about coming from a book? How do you even know they weren't just being silly?

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

seycyrus, naughty! naughty! Remember we've been told "not from a book"! Stairs is from a book! Toothbrush is from a book! You're only applying/regurgitating what you learned from "the book".

Is it just me, or does anyone else here see how ridiculous it is to say it's from a book? I don't understand why examples 1 and 3 are any more from a book?

Can anyone here please explain to everyone else how irrational this is?

You really need to relax and lighten up. Not everything needs to be so serious. Not everyone wants to have serious scientific discussions about every little thing such as why someone went up the stairs. Maybe next time you could say something like "Well you see he has this rubber chicken..." I am often serious and I find that I actually can make people who know me laugh much more easily than most people since it is much more striking when I say something funny than it is when someone else does it because they just don't expect it.

Perhaps you think you are being more intelligent and mature by responding in the manner that you do but remember anyone can make 'em bored but it takes a genius to make 'em laugh.

Yes, I stole that and made it my own. Sue me.

Many people don't like conversation that goes over their head. I actually had a friend who used to mock and make fun of just about any serious conversation I tried with him. He confessed once that he did it because he felt intimidated by my intelligence (no idea what he was on about there). So perhaps your friend is trying to "discredit you as a human being" because he feels "discredited as a human being" by your constant intellectualizing of the simplest of things.

Not everyone is amused by intellectual conversation. I have a friend who is and I usually save such conversations for when I am talking to him. Otherwise you should just have fun and quit giving so much of a crap about what other people think of your thoughts. Long ago I decided that I would amuse myself above catering to others. I find it hilarious when a person makes a jocular comment and I respond to them seriously. They don't get it until I laugh at them for taking me seriously (and often not then either) but I definitely find it funny. And sometimes I make jokes that no one else gets because it has nothing to do with anything but a funny confluence of ideas in my own head, and then I still chuckle to myself because I find it humourous that I would make such a joke and watch no one else have any clue what I am talking about.

In the end all I have is this...

 

[physicsdude30]

Mostly if they came from a book. Then secondly, how I could then let them know it's not really from a book, and letting them know that in a socially appropriate way. I know that many may not agree with the ideas I said in the three examples, and they're not necessarily profound (many creative people keep on brainstorming until something good actually comes up). I just am looking for ideas on how to let people know an idea is something I thought actually thought up, rather than regurgitated, when that's the case. And yes, I know I can work on making things more entertaining, but I don't think not entertaining means that I'm not actually thinking of an idea myself.

I know that example number two may have been overbearing socially, and I probably shouldn't have brought that particular one out of the three up, but I don't think I was mindlessly speaking to them.

So in other words, yes if it is from a book, and how to have better interpersonal communication skills in letting someone know something is an idea I thought of, even if they may not necessarily agree with the idea. I just think something should stand on it's own merits, rather than someone discrediting you because they think you may not be the only person to think of the idea.

Hmmm, how to deal. Okay, it's from a book but here goes...

Example one/three, him: "Not from a book!"
You: "Why do you say that's from a book?"
Result: He'll realize it's not from a book

Example two: Him, "That's not creative! ... He was tired. Ho ho ho!"
You: "Well you see I would have just said he went up the stairs to see the view from the other side, but I already thought of that one and wanted to try something different."
Result: He'll act confused

If he says: "You can't go to the grocery store because that's in a book."
You: "Dude, I didn't know that. I guess I learn something new every day! Whoa!"

 

[DaveC426913]

Hmmm, how to deal. Okay, it's from a book but here goes...

Example one/three, him: "Not from a book!"
You: "Why do you say that's from a book?"
Result: He'll realize it's not from a book

Example two: Him, "That's not creative! ... He was tired. Ho ho ho!"
You: "Well you see I would have just said he went up the stairs to see the view from the other side, but I already thought of that one and wanted to try something different."
Result: He'll act confused

If he says: "You can't go to the grocery store because that's in a book."
You: "Dude, I didn't know that. I guess I learn something new every day! Whoa!"

I'm callin' sock puppet.

 

[27Thousand]

OK. On the off-chance your social situation has not changed and is still valid: ask your friend what he is hearing - what clues he is getting specifically - that make him think these ideas are coming from a book as opposed to your own head. How would he recognize that an idea you stated was not from a book?

That actually sounds like a good idea. You sound like you have good social skills.

So a question I have for you, was there anything in my examples that made others think they were from a book? I just want to know if I said anything confusing, or sent off the wrong signals, or bad wording of how I presented the situation?

Like the example of the hypothetical experiment of drilling holes in the head, with a control and experimental group (the hypothetical experiment I made up, I assume never was conducted, just my imagination). I've never heard of that historical situation from a book, and I've never heard of someone using that hypothetical experiment out of that information to demonstrate how there can be alternative explanations to the evidence in Science. When my roommate said the weakness of Science is the null hypothesis can be true, I don't understand how I was being more from a book, when the null hypothesis is in book after book and many keep saying it's a weakness? Personally I don't care if something is from a book, because I think it's irrelevant, but I don't know why others here say my answer was taken from a book?

I don't know why some here think I got the "I'm trying to conceptualize the world around me" phrase< to describe my feelings< from a book? I also don't know why it's anymore from a book than when my roommate quoted lines from the movie Princess Bride, which I guess technically the movie script is found in a book. Sounding like it's from a book doesn't mean it's from a book.

Applying operant conditioning in an unusual way may have applied concepts which originally came from a book. However, if I make it intuitive enough to the point I considered it conceptual. I don't know why for practical purposes (although it would still be technically) from a book? Isn't "he's tired" also a concept found in a book? Although my answer wasn't profound like the invention of cell phones, when they invented cell phones they used scientific principles and existing technologies that came from books. Does that mean the invention of cell phones was regurgitated from a book?

Thanks for any help

 

[DaveC426913]

That actually sounds like a good idea. You sound like you have good social skills.

So a question I have for you, was there anything in my examples that made others think they were from a book? I just want to know if I said anything confusing, or sent off the wrong signals, or bad wording of how I presented the situation?

Like the example of the hypothetical experiment of drilling holes in the head, with a control and experimental group (the hypothetical experiment I made up, I assume never was conducted, just my imagination). I've never heard of that historical situation from a book, and I've never heard of someone using that hypothetical experiment out of that information to demonstrate how there can be alternative explanations to the evidence in Science. When my roommate said the weakness of Science is the null hypothesis can be true, I don't understand how I was being more from a book, when the null hypothesis is in book after book and many keep saying it's a weakness? Personally I don't care if something is from a book, because I think it's irrelevant, but I don't know why others here say my answer was taken from a book?

I don't know why some here think I got the "I'm trying to conceptualize the world around me" phrase< to describe my feelings< from a book? I also don't know why it's anymore from a book than when my roommate quoted lines from the movie Princess Bride, which I guess technically the movie script is found in a book. Sounding like it's from a book doesn't mean it's from a book.

Applying operant conditioning in an unusual way may have applied concepts which originally came from a book. However, if I make it intuitive enough to the point I considered it conceptual. I don't know why for practical purposes (although it would still be technically) from a book? Isn't "he's tired" also a concept found in a book? Although my answer wasn't profound like the invention of cell phones, when they invented cell phones they used scientific principles and existing technologies that came from books. Does that mean the invention of cell phones was regurgitated from a book?

Thanks for any help

It's all about context. If the context of your conversation were not one of scientific/technical discussion then your comments would be anomalous - out of place.

It might very well have sounded like you were a robot, spewing forth info not directly relevant (Data in Star Trek does this often).


I'll give you an example from my life:

I was having a boisterous conversation with a bunch of friends about something or other to do with racism. During the course of the conversation, I said "Well, that would be the case of reverse-racism..."

A guy who, until then had had very little to say, burst out with "THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS REVERSE RACISM, THERE IS ONLY RACISM."

It was quite obvious that he was simply repeating what he'd read somewhere. The reason it was obvious was because he was ignoring the flow of the conversation; it didn't fit in, so it was jarring.

Your comments might sound like Data would say them.
"A joke? Ah! A jest. A japery. A gag. A caper. A lark..."
"Shut up Data."

 

[27Thousand]

It's all about context. If the context of your conversation were not one of scientific/technical discussion then your comments would be anomalous - out of place.

It might very well have sounded like you were a robot, spewing forth info not directly relevant (Data in Star Trek does this often).I'll give you an example from my life:

I was having a boisterous conversation with a bunch of friends about something or other to do with racism. During the course of the conversation, I said "Well, that would be the case of reverse-racism..."

A guy who, until then had had very little to say, burst out with "THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS REVERSE RACISM, THERE IS ONLY RACISM."

It was quite obvious that he was simply repeating what he'd read somewhere. The reason it was obvious was because he was ignoring the flow of the conversation; it didn't fit in, so it was jarring.

Your comments might sound like Data would say them.
"A joke? Ah! A jest. A japery. A gag. A caper. A lark..."
"Shut up Data."

Thanks. I guess I understand why maybe a roommate would think that. I'm just trying to figure out why people in this forum thought the answers were from books? I mean, I stated in the first and last examples, "I never saw this in a book" and told physicsforums how I came to my responses and how I didn't get my stepping stones from any book. Still, people in this forum kept on accusing me of regurgitating from a book. The example of operant conditioning you could say I used knowledge from a book that I made intuitive to me, and then applied it in an unusual way. However, the conceptualize the world around me and the hypothetical drilling in the heads experiment (which never was even conducted) don't have any details about them that I got from books. The context of my hypothetical experiment was the roommate asked me what the weakness of the Scientific Method is, which his answer was a book answer. Was there anything I said that made those from phyiscforums think I got my answers from books? I just don't understand why some thought that.

Thanks

 

[Ophiolite]

Thanks. I guess I understand why maybe a roommate may think that. I'm just trying to figure out why people in this forum thought the answers were from books?

Please point me to a post where anyone here thought your answers were from a book. What I said, and I think others did too, is that none of your thoughts are especially original. In fact, to be quite honest, they are pretty mundane, boring and unimaginative.

I mean, come on, 'conceptualising the world'! That's clumsy English. It might be a convenience for you to think of it that way, but actually sharing it with the rest of humanity shows you are overrating the quality of the thought. Sorry, am I devaluing you as a human being? No, I'm just pointing out that you came up with a pretty crap phrase there, whether it was original, or an adaptation of something out of a book. If you think creativity is about using Roget's Thesaurus, then you have a major shock in store. (And if you don't understand the relevance of that statement you have further shocks down the line.)

And you still don't get the point that most of the time, in everyday conversation, people do not want to hear a bunch of self indulgent thoughts spouted out publicly. Nor have you addressed the question as to why you are bothered about what these other people think. Are you going to answer that, or keep avoiding it?

That all may sound rather hostile, but when someone is so determined to be intransigently thick it is difficult not to be comewhat a trifle agitated. Redeem yourself now. Start making sense. you know you can do it.

(Please excuse the Aral in the first sentence of the last paragraph.)