Why do non-smokers often display hostility towards smokers?

[Averagesupernova]

So how would you go about it with neighbors to avoid secondhand smoke?

Just about anything would be more tactful than what was done. Simply asking them to let you know when they go inside might be enough to get them to put it out and strike up a conversation with you.

 

[Tobias Funke]

The smell of olives makes we want to vomit. We should make them illegal because my concerns are all that matter.

 

[Jasongreat]

This whole argument starts with a faulty premise. The idea that you can change behavior by passing laws. Laws are in place to punish those that have acted in a anti-social way, Killing thy neighbor comes to mind(no second hand smoke does not kill your neighbor), not to prevent the killing from happening. The belief that laws guide your life is ludicrous and leads to the belief that "well its not against the law, is it, so we can do that" (just because something is against the law doesn't make it always wrong and vice versa just because it isn't illegal doesn't make it always right,there are exeptions to every rule)we should guide our lives by reason not punishment(since punishment doesn't work). Name one thing that has stopped because it is against the law. Now name off some things that have been stopped because of education. Betcha the second list is a lot longer than the first, since the first list is empty(atleast I can't think of one example).

 

[turbo]

The smell of olives makes we want to vomit. We should make them illegal because my concerns are all that matter.

Can I have your olives? You can have all my eggplant and zucchini.

Really, though, the problem with cigarette smoke is that it is harmful to everybody, and can trigger asthma and other respiratory problems. It's not a matter of "I don't like it" to many people - instead it is a risk to their health, even if they are not revolted by the smell. To some people, the smoke is a trigger for an asthma attack that can spiral out of control. When you can't breathe, other things fade in significance. I have always detested cigarette smoke, but it never put me in the ER like fragrance chemicals have. Still, I have a lot of empathy for people who are sickened by 2nd-hand smoke - especially children who have no defense against it, and whose immune systems are still developing.

 

[Tobias Funke]

Really, though, the problem with cigarette smoke is that it is harmful to everybody, and can trigger asthma and other respiratory problems. It's not a matter of "I don't like it" to many people - instead it is a risk to their health, even if they are not revolted by the smell.

Yeah, I know. Even though what I said was only half serious, I think some people are taking it too far. It's like this new* peanut allergy that every kid has. I don't like the idea of having to be careful where I eat a snickers bar because it might be harmful to someone else. I don't know what percentage of the population is so affected by second hand smoke that they need emergency care, but it's pretty low. Most people can just walk a few feet (how inconvenient!) to get away from the smell. Punishing all smokers seems excessive.

*I don't know if this actually is new or if too many soccer moms are just paranoid. Genetically modified food maybe?

 

[turbo]

I used to play in bars even though I hated cigarette smoke. I have a close friend who tended bar in the tavern in which I hosted open-mike jams for a few years. Young, blonde, pretty, and personable - that was all good for maximizing tips, but the pervasive smoke was a pain for her. She made the decision to work there because she could make good money in short periods of time, and tending bar left lots of time free for her to attend nursing school. Now she is a supervisor and trainer for an agency that coordinates nursing care for home-bound patients, and when I see her, she still thanks me for dialing down the volume of the music and for asking smokers to step outside when the smoke got oppressive. I wasn't derogatory or insulting about it - I'd say something like "Can we get a couple of doors open, here? It's getting a bit smoky on the stage and we want to do our best for you." Usually, that's all it took.

The open-mic sessions, in particular, drew people from 50-70 miles away at times, with parents bringing talented teens to cop some chops from professionals, and music students from colleges in that distance range sometimes swarming us to show their stuff. It was fun! Eventually, Maine banned smoking in all places open to the public (private clubs are exempted), and life got a bit easier.

A regular fan for the jams was the national enforcer for the Iron Horsemen MC. Intimidating-looking, huge guy, who always insisted on buying drinks for the band, and who loved live blues. If we played a song or two per set that he requested, he was content. Nobody at his table ever lit up when we were performing. He and his buds would ride 50 miles each way to hear some live music, and they gave us the same respect that we gave them. You may have heard bad things about "outlaw" MCs, but one thing that you should take away from this is that these people value loyalty and personal responsibility above all. If you are a friend, they will protect and value you, and they will remember you for a VERY long time. They aren't going to suffocate you in smoke if you ask them not to. Decent folks.

Getting OT, but that's the way it is here in Maine. We have some wanna-be clubs in the state (like the local Angels), and they sometimes act as if they can (and should) do any damned thing they want whenever they are in public. The real bikers (not posers) are less attitude, more local connections and family, and they encourage stuff that benefits us all.

Don't want to come down too hard on a thread on smokers, but there are times that we should recognize that there are whole classes of people who realize that if they want to smoke, it can impact others. My pals in the biker clubs were supportive and appreciative.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

So how would you go about it with neighbors to avoid secondhand smoke?

Maybe something like...

I'd say something like "Can we get a couple of doors open, here? It's getting a bit smoky on the stage and we want to do our best for you." Usually, that's all it took.

Generally if you walk up to someone and talk to them like a normal human being they are fairly receptive.

 

[Evo]

I have two neighbors that need to stop smoking on their patios.

How do you suggest I get them to agree to stop, since hints like, the smoke is preventing me from breathing, I can't stand on my own patio, and I need to go inside, close my windows and turn on the airconditioning because of your smoke", didn't work?

 

[Bratticus]

I have a couple living above me that like to have their marital ddisagreements after 11 pm, which involves a lot of screaming cursing and throwing of inanimate objects. I get up at 5 am, so should I tell them they are not permitted to argue after 11 pm? They also have a toddler... and that kid got a hell of a set of lungs... she starts screeching, there goes my nights rest. So, they need to make sure not to have loud arguments after 11pm, but also to shut up their kid overnight? Ridiculous, right?

I have talked to them, politely. Told them, hey look, everyone argues at times, but the sound insulation here is not very good, and I get up at 5 am. I would appreciate it if you could tone it down a bit after 11 pm.

And guess what, it has gotten a lot more quiet since I talked to them. Well the kid still has screaming fits, but nothing you can do there.

Non-smokers won the battle about indor smoking in public buildings and at work. Smokers were relegated to smoke outside... so, now they do.

Face it, you won't get everything your way at all times.

If you can not reach an agreement with your neighbors, and you can not get a solution thru your condo association, you will either have to adjust or move into a non smoking building.

 

[GeorginaS]

This whole argument starts with a faulty premise. The idea that you can change behavior by passing laws. Laws are in place to punish those that have acted in a anti-social way,

I'd argue all of that. The quickest way to effect social change -- and especially attitudes -- is to legislate it and/or give the requested social change government support. And, not all legislation is punitive. See social attitude changes re: slavery in the US, women's rights (universal suffrage), seat belt laws, and onto the world stage, crimes against humanity and war crimes. In all of these very recent developments in modern social life, the greatest attitude shift in the general population came when the change received legislated support. Smoking in public is another.

While I was growing up, everyone smoked. They smoked everywhere, in the grocery stores, in hospitals, on tv interview shows, quite literally, there wasn't anywhere you could go where people weren't smoking. Your doctor might even have a cigarette while you had a consultation with him while you lay in a hospital bed. (I say 'him' because there weren't many 'her' doctors then.) There were people who didn't smoke and there were some annoyances like making sure that the clothes you purchased off of the racks in stores didn't have cigarette burns in them, because people smoked while ruffling through racks of clothing.

And I can tell you this: I do not ever recall seeing non-smokers hacking and coughing and pitching fits the moment cigarette smoke wafted their way. There wasn't any constant complaint about not being able to breathe because someone who didn't smoke walked past someone who'd had a cigarette an hour prior. There was none of the complaint and outcry and supposed inability to lead a constructive life if one didn't smoke but was around someone who did.

Largely through legislation, social attitudes shifted making it more and more difficult for people to smoke, so more people quit. As more people quit, and government support was thrown behind anti-smoking campaigns and advertising, it became more and more socially acceptable to treat people who do smoke as pariahs. It's even becoming socially acceptable to be outright abusive towards smokers. The shift has occurred really, really quickly in terms of an overall and pervasive societal attitude change. That hasn't been the product of the masses rising on their own accord.

Lastly, for some people, yes, quitting smoking is simply a matter of deciding, "Meh, I don't want to do this any more" and they experience a short period of discomfort and it's over with. For other people, who metabolise the drug very differently, it's a huge, huge, deal to overcome.

At any rate, as so many people here have pointed out, treat one another with courtesy and respect. It works.

 

[lisab]

I have a couple living above me that like to have their marital ddisagreements after 11 pm, which involves a lot of screaming cursing and throwing of inanimate objects.

Thank goodness they're inanimate. I sure wouldn't want to have neighbors who engage in angry, competitive cat juggling.

Trouble is, you never know how it really is living in a place until you live in it. This is even more of a problem if you're buying a place, rather than renting. I'd like to have a 30 day probation period when moving into a new place, where you can back out, no questions asked. That way, you'd know about the neighbor who gets off at 2 or 3 in the morning then listens to reggae for 3 hours (my first apartment experience...I asked him to stop, and he did).

 

[Evo]

I have a couple living above me that like to have their marital ddisagreements after 11 pm, which involves a lot of screaming cursing and throwing of inanimate objects. I get up at 5 am, so should I tell them they are not permitted to argue after 11 pm? They also have a toddler... and that kid got a hell of a set of lungs... she starts screeching, there goes my nights rest. So, they need to make sure not to have loud arguments after 11pm, but also to shut up their kid overnight? Ridiculous, right?

I have talked to them, politely. Told them, hey look, everyone argues at times, but the sound insulation here is not very good, and I get up at 5 am. I would appreciate it if you could tone it down a bit after 11 pm.

And guess what, it has gotten a lot more quiet since I talked to them. Well the kid still has screaming fits, but nothing you can do there.

Non-smokers won the battle about indor smoking in public buildings and at work. Smokers were relegated to smoke outside... so, now they do.

Face it, you won't get everything your way at all times.

If you can not reach an agreement with your neighbors, and you can not get a solution thru your condo association, you will either have to adjust or move into a non smoking building.

Here, we are told to call the local police for noise after 10pm, it's illegal. I also believe smoking outside their home is against the rules. I get along with them otherwise and we're even friends, but, they are dumber than rocks. I guess I will have to turn them into the housing office and let them get an eviction notice. But I don't want to lose them, I could get much worse neightbors.

Also, it is illegal to have an unused, unlit barbecue grill outside of your home here, it's a $100 fine if you have an unused grill outside your premises. Using it will get you hauled to jail.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

I have two neighbors that need to stop smoking on their patios.

How do you suggest I get them to agree to stop, since hints like, the smoke is preventing me from breathing, I can't stand on my own patio, and I need to go inside, close my windows and turn on the airconditioning because of your smoke", didn't work?

Like I said before, many people do not take the sort of hinting you have described very well. Its quite possible that you have annoyed them by it and they are maybe even intentionally trying to annoy you now.

Since I doubt you have any recourse through your apartment management* other than asking about moving to another unit the only thing you could likely do that could help would be to simply ask them nicely to smoke elsewhere. Whether or not you would actually be able to get them to stop I have no idea but I seriously doubt anything else would work at all.

There are unfortunately a significant number of people who seem to feel that they should be able to do what ever they want in their home and get upset if anyone complains. I often get the old "I pay a lot of money to live here!" and usually respond "So do your neighbours" but people who live in apartments sometimes just don't get it.

*edit: "I also believe smoking outside their home is against the rules."
That is sort of odd. Usually smoking inside apartments is against the rules.
Either way, don't you think it would be best to talk to them about it first instead of reporting them?

 

[Bratticus]

No kidding lisab, and what will one do if the nice neighbor you used to have sells his place to a really nasty person... win some, lose some.

 

[Bratticus]

Here, we are told to call the local police for noise after 10pm, it's illegal. IQUOTE]

And what do you think the police will say if I call them every night because of the neighbors screaming baby?

 

[Quincy]

Unless if you're standing really close to a smoker, the smell isn't really that bad...

 

[Hurkyl]

Unless if you're standing really close to a smoker, the smell isn't really that bad...

It depends on your sensitivities and sense of smell.

 

[Bratticus]

Here, we are told to call the local police for noise after 10pm, it's illegal. I also believe smoking outside their home is against the rules. I get along with them otherwise and we're even friends, but, they are dumber than rocks. I guess I will have to turn them into the housing office and let them get an eviction notice

And here is the difference between you and me. You call the cops and talk about getting people evicted, I have a polite, friendly conversation. From the looks of it, I got better results.

Mind you, when I bought my condo, this was an adult community, no children permitted to live here. they changed the by-laws by majority vote to allow families with children in this community. Do I like it? No, I voted against the change.

My options now are to either compromise, or sell my condo.

I like this place, so I will compromise, and if something really bothers me, I will invite the person that bugs me to a cup of coffee and we will talk.

Simple but effective.

 

[Zantra]

Me too. Let's say your artist sometimes makes his saran wrap wall at the main exit from your apartment complex. Sometimes, he builds it blocking the sidewalk from the parking lot to the building where you work. Sometimes, his wall cuts off the line checkout line at the cafeteria where you eat. Other times, his wall blocks off the bus stop where your kid has to wait for the school bus.

My guess is that MOST artists are considerate enough not to deliberately setup a "blockade" to interfere with people's lives. In fact, isn't the point of the anti smoking lawys to prevent exactly that, while still allowing the smoking?>

Again, it's not like the artist builds across thoroughfares to cause deliberate distress. In fact, it's as if the guy follows the artist around, and everywhere he sets up, the person tries to cause a fuss-so the true annoyance isn't the artist practicing his art, it's the person who keeps insisting that he not practice it, and eventually balls of saran wrap are thrown and it gets ugly


I'm not "FOR" smoking. I'm not for a lot of things, but I also recognize that we don't live in a police state, and people are freee to do activities that don't interfere with me.

In a way, it's the same thing as an anti-abortionist threatening to kill anyone who enters an abortion clinic. It's not enough to have philisophical discord, you have to "force" the other person to conform to your ideals, instead of just saying "you know know, I dislike abortion, so I'll steer clear of abortion clinics." Instead you go stand outside of them and throw firebombs because you have difference of opinion.

I think a lot of people here feel so strongly about not smoking, that they are not acknowledging this basic, simple concept.

Again I'll go back to the bar anaology. Does everyone here who doesn't drink berate everyone they see with a drink in their hand? beer is a drug. Do you go stand outside the bar and say "phew, it smells like vomit and urine, I wish they'd close this place down" ? Do you go stand outside a bar and "politely ask people to stop drinking? So if the anti-smoking rhetoric in this post is ok, then why not the above? Can anyone justify it?

If you're at least 20 feet away from smokers, breezes aside, you won't be able to smell the smoke. If you go stand close to someone and complain, then it's YOUR fault for not steering clear. Disagreeing with someone's behavior, and attacking them for practicing it, are 2 different animals.

We live in a society based on MUTUAL consideration,

 

[Zantra]

I have two neighbors that need to stop smoking on their patios.

How do you suggest I get them to agree to stop, since hints like, the smoke is preventing me from breathing, I can't stand on my own patio, and I need to go inside, close my windows and turn on the airconditioning because of your smoke", didn't work?

ok I know this is going sound absolutely nuts, but try this..


1. go downstairs...

2. knock on their door..

3. Say hello and...wait for it...


...


4. Politely explain that you are asthmatic and would they mind smoking indoors because it affects your breathing.


Or there's the other method

1. kill their pets and leave a note saying "you're next"

2. cut their brakes

3. firebomb their house

4. Put a lt ciggarette out on their child's forehead


Now you see where you're at, and where I'm at. Making sarcastic comments only incites, and it's one step away from the above... maybe you should come over my direction before you shiv someone for smoking

 

[Averagesupernova]

I have two neighbors that need to stop smoking on their patios.

Unless smoking on their patios is illegal where you live which I find hard to believe, the above is just insane. They don't NEED to do anything for you. Their freedom stops where yours begins and yours stops where theirs begins. Where that line is drawn is typically done through legislation. Now if they are indeed breaking the law and it really bothers you that much quit whining about it to us and do something about it. I hope I don't need to explain how to go about that.

 

[Evo]

I haven't made any sarcastic comments to them. They are aware that the smoking bothers me to the point that I can't be outside when they smoke. We get along great on every other issue, the husband evens offers to take my trash out for me, they just won't compromise on their smoking habits. I may have to speak to them about burning my plants with their cigarettes. Perhaps I will buy them an ashtray. Yesterday there was a solid half inch layer of ashes across the top of a decorative planter.

Unless smoking on their patios is illegal where you live which I find hard to believe, the above is just insane. They don't NEED to do anything for you. Their freedom stops where yours begins and yours stops where theirs begins. Where that line is drawn is typically done through legislation. Now if they are indeed breaking the law and it really bothers you that much quit whining about it to us and do something about it. I hope I don't need to explain how to go about that.

I can't even open my windows because my house fills up with smoke. That is an invasion of my space. There has been discussion about the smoking problem in my complex online in another forum. There have been complaints posted by others about smoke from neighbor's balconies filling their house with smoke. Apparently many people are having this problem because of the design of the units. I accidently stumpled upon the issue being discussed when I was looking up the office's phone number online.

I can discuss the issue all I want, you can choose to skip over my posts.

 

[Hootenanny]

I haven't made any sarcastic comments to them. They are aware that the smoking bothers me to the point that I can't be outside when they smoke. We get along great on every other issue, the husband evens offers to take my trash out for me, they just won't compromise on their smoking habits. I may have to speak to them about burning my plants with their cigarettes. Perhaps I will buy them an ashtray. Yesterday there was a solid half inch layer of ashes across the top of a decorative planter.

Evo, if they are damaging property then I'm sure you have some legal recourse?

 

[Evo]

Evo, if they are damaging property then I'm sure you have some legal recourse?

I'm going to point out the damage to them and advise them to use an ashtray. They already got a notice from the housing office to stop throwing their cigarette butts over the railing. I didn't complain, it was the handyman, he had to clean it all up. I'm sure they think I reported them.

 

[Bratticus]

The whole apartment fills up with smoke? wow, how do they manage that? How many cigarettes can a person smoke at the same time... it would take a few packs to be lit up at the same time for cigarette smoke from someone's balkony to fill up an entire apartment. Doesn't that set off the smoke alarms?... unless your's don't work.

 

[Evo]

The whole apartment fills up with smoke? wow, how do they manage that? How many cigarettes can a person smoke at the same time... it would take a few packs to be lit up at the same time for cigarette smoke from someone's balkony to fill up an entire apartment. Doesn't that set off the smoke alarms?... unless your's don't work.

There are 5 of them, the husband, wife, her mother and daughter and the daughter's boyfreind. Then when the husband and wife on the ground level next to me light up, which they often do and everyone chats, that's 7 cigarettes all going at once a few feet from my windows which suck in all the smoke.

Every day after work, I put out seeds for the birds and bunnies on the rocks, which my upstairs neghbors call "squirrel dinner tables" and all of the neighbors come out to watch all of the animals gather each on his own rock, to have dinner. All of my neighbors love it and thy all have started contributing to the feeding. Only I have to watch from inside my house with the windows closed because everyone is smoking.

Our backyards all face into a wooded ravine.

Edit: good point about the smoke detectors, although it's hazy in my place from the smoke, 5 of them chain smoking inside would probably set of the alarm. My alarm has never gone off, even after some bad kitchen disasters.

 

[BobG]

There are 5 of them, the husband, wife, her mother and daughter and the daughter's boyfreind. Then When the husband and wife on the gorund level next to me light up, which they often do and everyone chats, that's 7 cigarettes all going at once a few feet from my windows which suck in all the smoke.

Every day after work, I put out seeds for the birds and bunnies on the rocks, which my upstairs neghbors call "squirrel dinner tables" and all of the neighbors come out to watch all of the animals gather each on his own rock, to have dinner. All of my neighbors love it and thy all have started contributing to the feeding. Only I have to watch from inside my house with the windows closed because everyone is smoking.

Our backyards all face into a wooded ravine.

No! Don't even think it!

It seems like a good idea at first glance, but you haven't considered how the stream turned into a ravine in the first place. You'll have to worry about the bodies being exposed every thunder storm that passes through.

Too bad, though. You could probably have practically just rolled the bodies off the balconies.

 

[octelcogopod]

I don't know Evo, what do you expect us to say?
You have presented a situation which is impossible. The only real solution is for either one of you to move, or for them to quit smoking.
In that sense I guess it makes more sense for you to move than them. It's not really their fault this is happening to you.
And it's not really a well presented argument against smoking.

 

[Hootenanny]

It's not really their fault this is happening to you.

How can you say that it's not their fault?

 

[Evo]

I don't know Evo, what do you expect us to say?
You have presented a situation which is impossible. The only real solution is for either one of you to move, or for them to quit smoking.
In that sense I guess it makes more sense for you to move than them. It's not really their fault this is happening to you.
And it's not really a well presented argument against smoking.

Actually the law is on the side of the non-smoker in these cases. The courts have ruled against the smokers, so it is a legally sound case, if I choose to pursue it. You must have missed this post.

I apologize for sounding hostile, but I have really good reason to want to vent in this thread. I have to deal everyday with obnoxious cigarette smoke filling my house and preventing me from even being able to sit outside on my own patio.

I moved into an apartment and the people above me and next to me are all chain smokers. The problem is that they don't smoke inside their homes, they come outside to smoke. The weather has been beautiful lately, but if I open my windows, my house is instantly filled with smoke to the point where I have trouble breathing, I'm coughing and my throat gets sore and my eyes start burning. I cannot go outside and sit on my patio for the same reason. This is not right. The people above me also lean over the railing, flicking their hot ashes off so that they cover my plants, burning holes in the leaves. From the layer of cigarette butts covering my yard below them, they obviously do not own an ashtray. Actually the grounds people were so disgusted by their mess, that they sent a warning for them to stop, so now they throw their butts deeper into the ravine.

So, not only can I not sit outside and enjoy my yard, I can't even open my windows and get fresh air. I have to keep the windows closed and run my air conditioner due to their smoke polluting my home.

Happily, it seems the tides are turning and people are pushing through laws making cigarette smoke a public nuisance. I don't mind my neighbors smoking inside their homes, but they should not be allowed to smoke in our common shared outdoor space.

http://www.tclconline.org/documents/LegalUpdate_Nov06.pdf

I think banning soemone from smoking "inside" their own home is a bit much, but seriously, people do not have the right to do anything that can be considered harmful, or a nuisance to others.

Utah has also passed a law making cigarette smoke a public nuisance and addresses the rights of people in their homes to not have second hand smoke in or around their homes.

http://www.le.state.ut.us/~1997/bills/sbillint/SB0049S2.htm

 

[negitron]

Actually the law is on the side of the non-smoker in these cases. The courts have ruled against the smokers, so it is a legally sound case, if I choose to pursue it.

Depends. Did you read your lease carefully?

   (7) There is no cause of action for a nuisance under Subsection (3) if the rental, lease, or
7    purchase agreement for the unit states in writing that:
8        (a) smoking is allowed in other units and that tobacco smoke from those units may drift
9    into the unit that is subject of the agreement; and
10       (b) by his signature the renter, lessee, or buyer acknowledges he has been informed that
11    tobacco smoke may drift into the unit he is renting, leasing, or purchasing, and he waives any right
12    to a cause of action for a nuisance under Subsection (3).

 

[Evo]

Depends. Did you read your lease carefully?

   (7) There is no cause of action for a nuisance under Subsection (3) if the rental, lease, or
7    purchase agreement for the unit states in writing that:
8        (a) smoking is allowed in other units and that tobacco smoke from those units may drift
9    into the unit that is subject of the agreement; and
10       (b) by his signature the renter, lessee, or buyer acknowledges he has been informed that
11    tobacco smoke may drift into the unit he is renting, leasing, or purchasing, and he waives any right
12    to a cause of action for a nuisance under Subsection (3).

I just resigned my lease last week, no such clause. As a matter of fact there was an addendum about causing any type of nuisance, smoke, trash, objects placed outside, noisy animals, etc... which could be subject to fines or eviction. I don't have my countersigned copy back yet. Outdoor grills are also not alowed.

I understand that there is a movement to make entire blocks of homes in my complex designated smoke free, so that smokers will not be allowed to live next to non-smokers.

 

[Jasongreat]

I'd argue all of that. The quickest way to effect social change -- and especially attitudes -- is to legislate it and/or give the requested social change government support. And, not all legislation is punitive. See social attitude changes re: slavery in the US, women's rights (universal suffrage), seat belt laws, and onto the world stage, crimes against humanity and war crimes. In all of these very recent developments in modern social life, the greatest attitude shift in the general population came when the change received legislated support. Smoking in public is another.

.

The quickest way to get started changing attitudes might be legislation, but quickest doesn't mean best or smart. Just because youve started social change doesn't mean in the end you'll have the problem stopped. At the turn of the century legislators banned certain drugs, social change started, but here it is 100 yrs later and even though social change started (and millions punished) do you see an end anywhere. And yes all legislation is punitive, was it not a punishment for blacks to be classified as property by legislation? Then was it not punishment to the people that paid money for that legal property to have that property removed through legislation? Wasnt it legislation that didnt give women the right to vote, wasnt that punishment? People in disenfranchised groups always feel the punishment, but once they get to dole it out it is no longer punishment its the right thing to do(since its the right thing to do it isn't punishment its for the punished's own good).

 

[negitron]

And yes all legislation is punitive, was it not a punishment for blacks to be classified as property by legislation? Then was it not punishment to the people that paid money for that legal property to have that property removed through legislation? Wasnt it legislation that didnt give women the right to vote, wasnt that punishment? People in disenfranchised groups always feel the punishment, but once they get to dole it out it is no longer punishment its the right thing to do(since its the right thing to do it isn't punishment its for the punished's own good).

First of all, punishment has a particular meaning which is NOT covered by any of the examples you have here. It does not simply mean "do something bad to someone."

Secondly, there are plenty of laws which don't "punish" anyone; who suffers the "punishment" when laws against, for example, car theft get enacted? If you're going to say "car thieves," you can just go sit in the corner until you figure out why that's a stupid answer.

 

[Bratticus]

Every day after work, I put out seeds for the birds and bunnies on the rocks, which my upstairs neghbors call "squirrel dinner tables" and all of the neighbors come out to watch all of the animals gather each on his own rock, to have dinner. All of my neighbors love it and thy all have started contributing to the feeding. Only I have to watch from inside my house with the windows closed because everyone is smoking.

My Jack Russel terrier and my cat would be in 7th heaven at your place, both love to hunt squirrels and rabbits... the terrier more than the cat, he has caught a few too... of course the rodents and rabbits were not too happy.. well, hard to say, after Mickey got ahold of them they were "beyond good and evil".

Edit: good point about the smoke detectors, although it's hazy in my place from the smoke, 5 of them chain smoking inside would probably set of the alarm. My alarm has never gone off, even after some bad kitchen disasters.

Check your smoke detectors and make sure they function properly, your life may depend on it. And if you do not have a carbon monoxide detector, get one, it also may just save your life.
A child died in Ocean City MD in a hotelroom from carbon monoxide poisoning. You can smell smoke, carbon monoxide is odorless, it just makes you sleepy (and you may not wake up).

Do not depent on your landlord in this.