Why Would an Adult Target Kindergarten Students in a Shooting?

[AnTiFreeze3]

Stop being simple yourself. You're right it's not the "material things", it's about looking into the cause and effect of simulated violence on the mental states of already sick people. The blame belongs only on the person who committed the crime but it's foolish not to examine what factors shaped his actions before and after the decision was made to commit the crime.

*Yes, I know you weren't addressing me with this post, but I did reply to you earlier on this very topic.*

It's still a better use of time to better understand the mental illnesses themselves rather than examining every material or object that a mentally ill person comes into contact with, just to see if it might have some negative affect on them.

 

[Skrew]

I always knew something like this would happen at some point. Besides looking at the causes of the violence the solution is not to pass more gun control to strip power from the law abideing population but to enable the population to protect themselves.

Schools should either have armed guards or teachers who carry firearms with them(after demonstrateing proficiency).

edit

Hopefully this edited post is OK to evo, it's difficult to know what's considerd acceptable since I see other posts in this thread which don't appear directly related and haven't been removed.

 

[AnTiFreeze3]

I always knew something like this would happen at some point. Besides looking at the causes of the violence the solution is not to pass more gun control to strip power from the law abideing population but to enable the population to protect themselves.

Schools should either have armed guards or teachers who carry firearms with them(after demonstrateing proficiency).

edit

Hopefully this edited post is OK to evo, it's difficult to know what's considerd acceptable since I see other posts in this thread which don't appear directly related and haven't been removed.

I'll keep it simple, and just say that the solution to maniacs with guns is not more guns; it's finding a way to keep the guns away from those maniacs.

 

[Evo]

I always knew something like this would happen at some point. Besides looking at the causes of the violence the solution is not to pass more gun control to strip power from the law abideing population but to enable the population to protect themselves.

Schools should either have armed guards or teachers who carry firearms with them(after demonstrateing proficiency).

edit

Hopefully this edited post is OK to evo, it's difficult to know what's considerd acceptable since I see other posts in this thread which don't appear directly related and haven't been removed.

We created a thread here https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=659069

for people to speculate on technical solutions, and arming teachers is not a technical solution, and it's off topic to this thread.

 

[MarneMath]

When I was a 19yr old kid in Iraq, I made a friend with one the local boys. He would follow my unit as we patrolled the streets trying to win the hearts and minds. We used to play soccer in the street and I'm sure it was a funny sight to watch a group of Americans in heavy armor chasing a soccer ball and being out scored by this boy and his friends. He was a good kid. I remember one day, we received reports of house borne IED. As set up a cordon around the house and waiting for EOD to make an assessment, I heard on the radio that they found bodies. My squad was tasked with providing overwatch while another squad secured the bodies. My fire team set up a position on a house and I placed my SAW ontop of my rucksack and located the other squad. At first, I didn't see it, but then it hit me. The bodies were kids. Some of them I knew from our time playing soccer. Their organs hanging outside their bodies with ears chopped off. As the squad began the recovery effort, I noticed that one of the bodies was my friend. That was my first introduction to how evil people can be. We later found out that these boys were killed for being friendly to infidel and thus not muslims. Kids killed for no reason.

I don't know if people are fundamentally evil or good. I stop caring after a while to be honest. However, I do know that people are capable of great evil. I do know that matters are never as simple as the talking heads on tv like to report. I learn that normal people if given the right catalyst can do awful things. I learned that a lot of times, we blame tv, games, weak laws, and mental conditions to hide the fact that, sometimes, people just do bad things intentionally. Evil exist and my heart goes out to the family. My world would end if I lost my daughter that way.

 

[Evo]

I think once we find out what the school district suggested for the killer that the mother opposed, to the point of taking him out of school and home schooling him, we'll have the answer if not be very close.

From what school friends have said, it's likely the school wanted him assessed for mental problems. Especially his talk of wanting to "blow things up".

I think the mother wanted to "cover up" her son's mental problems.

Mom: you want to "blow things up? I bought a bunch of guns, let's go to the shooting range". IMO to above. Except these are all things that happened, with the exception of the exact conversation. and THIS IS OFF TOPIC, ok? so let's not go there.

Rule of thumb, if it's part of the investigation, guns used, mother, mental illness, etc... that's ok.

See previous posts with links to the items in this post.

And before someone says again that I am against gun ownership, no I am just against certain guns, and artillery. And the capacity and the number. A homeowner doesn't need a highpowered arsenal to scare off a robber.

 

[WannabeNewton]

I don't know if people are fundamentally evil or good. I stop caring after a while to be honest. However, I do know that people are capable of great evil. I do know that matters are never as simple as the talking heads on tv like to report. I learn that normal people if given the right catalyst can do awful things. I learned that a lot of times, we blame tv, games, weak laws, and mental conditions to hide the fact that, sometimes, people just do bad things intentionally. Evil exist and my heart goes out to the family. My world would end if I lost my daughter that way.

I agree with you 100%. I have been saying all along that humans are truly terrible creatures and are capable of just horrible, horrible things. I really enjoyed your story by the way so thanks for that.

 

[MarneMath]

I think you might've missed my point entirely.

 

[WannabeNewton]

I think you might've missed my point entirely.

How so?

 

[MarneMath]

Because fact that the majority of people who read about this event feel terrible about this and know it is bad seems counterproductive to your claim that humans are truly terrible creatures. By taking isolated and extreme cases like this and then using it as an example as to why humans are bad is to broad. Can people do terrible things? Of course. However, the key point is that behavior people engage after such event is disingenuous. In the coming days, we'll blame everything from, the parents, the mental stability, the 'obvious signs of instability', tv, games, music, whatever anyone else thinks of, and just not state the obvious. People sometimes just do bad things because they want too. I think we do that because we have a need to feel as if there is a reason for it. In my experience, the reason is just because the person wanted too.

 

[Evo]

Because fact that the majority of people who read about this event feel terrible about this and know it is bad seems counterproductive to your claim that humans are truly terrible creatures. By taking isolated and extreme cases like this and then using it as an example as to why humans are bad is to broad. Can people do terrible things? Of course. However, the key point is that behavior people engage after such event is disingenuous. In the coming days, we'll blame everything from, the parents, the mental stability, the 'obvious signs of instability', tv, games, music, whatever anyone else thinks of, and just not state the obvious. People sometimes just do bad things because they want too. I think we do that because we have a need to feel as if there is a reason for it. In my experience, the reason is just because the person wanted too.

One of the arguments to keep guns is that it's the mentally unstable people with access to them, not that someone that owns guns can be evil and choose to misuse them. IIRC.

 

[WannabeNewton]

Because fact that the majority of people who read about this event feel terrible about this and know it is bad seems counterproductive to your claim that humans are truly terrible creatures.

I can copy paste tons of comments from pages on facebook with people saying all kinds of disgusting things about the incident. It isn't so cut and dry. The potential to do evil is great and I hate that people have the audacity to hail the human race as a largely benevolent one (not saying you are personally of course). Anyways, I think this is a topic for a different day.

 

[CAC1001]

And before someone says again that I am against gun ownership, no I am just against certain guns, and artillery. And the capacity and the number. A homeowner doesn't need a highpowered arsenal to scare off a robber.

Well artillery is already illegal. "High-powered" is a rather arbitrary term. Neither an AR-15 nor a Kalashnikov ("AK-47") are high-powered rifles (the AR-15 is too weak a rifle to be used to hunt any kind of large game even). I also don't see how number of guns owned has anything to do with committing crimes. All one needs is one rifle or handgun to go and commit a mass killing.

 

[surajt88]

This is supposedly a letter written by one of the killed kids during lockdown.

Source: Zee News India
Otherwise couldn't identify its authenticity. If true, its heart breaking. Also I'd appreciate if anyone can provide a reliable American source for this.

 

[Pythagorean]

Well artillery is already illegal. "High-powered" is a rather arbitrary term. Neither an AR-15 nor a Kalashnikov ("AK-47") are high-powered rifles (the AR-15 is too weak a rifle to be used to hunt any kind of large game even). I also don't see how number of guns owned has anything to do with committing crimes. All one needs is one rifle or handgun to go and commit a mass killing.

To your last point, having more guns floating around the citizenry increases the chances that someone wig bad intentions can get that one gun.

 

[MarneMath]

I can copy paste tons of comments from pages on facebook with people saying all kinds of disgusting things about the incident. It isn't so cut and dry. The potential to do evil is great and I hate that people have the audacity to hail the human race as a largely benevolent one (not saying you are personally of course). Anyways, I think this is a topic for a different day.

Which I think was the point I was making in my reply. It isn't cut or dry. I never claimed people were naturally good. I don't care for such broad premise. I can tell stories of a private I had who placed his body in front of a wounded Afghani soldier and held him during a particularly bad time in the valley. I can also tell stories of villagers who set land mines near a rival village's school. People have the power to do tremedous evil, people have the power to do temedous good.

My problem when events like this occur is a simple one. When someone does something amazing, we don't look for why such a person did good things. We just toss it off as a character thing. When someone does evil, we look for reasons. I'm not an expert, but I truly believe some people just do bad things because they can. I'm sure we can break down every action and get detail analysis and find reasons; however, I think in the end, the only reason that matters is this: The person wanted to do it.

I have PTSD, depression, grew up so poor that some months we had to make a choice between food or heat. I went to the worse school in the inner city. The first time I witness someone get killed, I was 4 yrs old buying ice cream with my mom. If I went out and committed some violent crime, I believe I would be easy to toss off and be profiled as just another guy from a broken home torn by the war. Yet, I'm not violent, or abusive, or have urges to kill. No one thinks twice about that fact.

I'm not sure if I'm coming off clearly, but I hope I am.

 

[nazarbaz]

Such an event has no meaning, no cause and no purpose. I come from a country that went from a quite stable polity to what is often called a "civil war" in a blink of an eye. We weren't that violent before nor after it.
The language of causality is completely irrelevant in understanding human behavior.The context could lead "normal" people, not only the "unstable", to awful atrocities. No structural reasons, factors or causes are needed to turn a nice guy to a monster. It's all random : an inextricable nexus of individual and collective choices, necessities and chance.
There's probably a mimetic phenomenon here, but don't blame your "culture", it has nothing to do with it. That said, I can't understand why a responsible governement allow the trade of war weapons to its citizens and industries : it makes no sense at all. The very definition of the state is the guarantee of peace by exerting the monopoly of war and "legitimate violence".

 

[julcab12]

Right now i don't care much of how people think of the incident. Give him stone/pencil/pillow or whatever. The fact remains that he INTENDED TO KILL doesn't change the nature of the case. I want constructive/probable solution and prevention. I'm sick of hearing prayers as emotional relief. I really felt uneasy, sad and afraid for my 2 siblings.

 

[nsaspook]

*Yes, I know you weren't addressing me with this post, but I did reply to you earlier on this very topic.*

It's still a better use of time to better understand the mental illnesses themselves rather than examining every material or object that a mentally ill person comes into contact with, just to see if it might have some negative affect on them.

We don't have to look at every item because I don't think these events are truly random in nature. There could be a set of reinforcing profile factors that might allow us to inform the parents or teachers while they are still young how to watch for signs and maybe change long-term behavior.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/kinkel/profile/avenger.html

Because these events are so rare I don't think we can prevent them but maybe we can reduce the persons desired level of destruction when they do.

 

[Evo]

This is supposedly a letter written by one of the killed kids during lockdown.

Source: Zee News India
Otherwise couldn't identify its authenticity. If true, its heart breaking. Also I'd appreciate if anyone can provide a reliable American source for this.

It's bogus. No child named Brian was killed and it's not in any American news source.

 

[enosis_]

I mean this is totally practical for self defense. A "semi automatic":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=fW_HMBLvzuU



I'm sure the forefathers foresaw this technology becoming a reality when they drafted the constitution. Get real, the forefathers are not demigods.

A "semi auto" that shoots 400 shots a minute:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WDAIN-Onc0&feature=player_embedded



I feel sooooooo much safer knowing the fact that there's probably 1000s of people walking around out there with one of those that aren't law enforcement or the military.

I thought the killer used hand guns?

 

[enosis_]

It doesn't get any more violent than this. http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2012/12/15/connecticut-school-shooting-adam-lanza/1771021/

from your link edward... ""All of the wounds I know of were caused by a rifle,'' he said."

Apparently the primary weapon used has not been reported yet?

 

[Astronuc]

I thought the killer used hand guns?

I have heard and read several variants regarding the guns used. I have heard 2 handguns, a rifle or combination. I heard 3 guns were found by the body of Adam Lanza, or 2 handguns with the rifle still in the car.

But

All the victims at the school were shot with a rifle, at least some of them up close, and all were apparently shot more than once, Chief Medical Examiner Dr. H. Wayne Carver said. There were as many as 11 shots on the bodies he examined.
. . . .
The rifle used was a Bushmaster .223-caliber, according to an official with knowledge of the investigation who was not authorized to speak about it and talked on condition of anonymity. The gun is commonly seen at competitions and was the type used in the 2002 sniper killings in the Washington, D.C., area. Also found in the school were two handguns, a Glock 10 mm and a Sig Sauer 9 mm.
. . . .

Gov.: Gunman shot self as 1st responders closed in
http://news.yahoo.com/gov-gunman-shot-self-1st-responders-closed-152837726.html

It seems in the absence of facts, some media fill in the details themselves. In other words, stuff gets made up on the fly in order to tell a story, and grab an audience. Clearly there is an economic incentive to sensationalize the news in order to attract/build an audience and sell advertising.

The media seem reluctant to admit that they don't have the facts or that what they are reporting is preliminary and unverified/unsubstantiated. That's shameful.


It's now being reported that the principal, Dawn Hochsprung, and school psychologist, Mary Sherlach, tried to rush Lanza and were killed during the attempt.

 

[justsomeguy]

It seems in the absence of facts, some media fill in the details themselves. In other words, stuff gets made up on the fly in order to tell a story, and grab an audience. Clearly there is an economic incentive to sensationalize the news in order to attract/build an audience and sell advertising.

The media seem reluctant to admit that they don't have the facts or that what they are reporting is preliminary and unverified/unsubstantiated. That's shameful.

This isn't really new. I know some psycho shot a bunch of little kids at a school, doesn't really matter to me how many or what kind of guns he used or what his exact path through the school was.

 

[edward]

from your link edward... ""All of the wounds I know of were caused by a rifle,'' he said."

Apparently the primary weapon used has not been reported yet?

The fact that the Bushmaster was used in all of the shootings had been clarified. The "HE" is the local coroner and he did know what weapon was used. Shooting the victims multiple times with a .223 caliber was what I meant when I stated "it doesn't get any more violent than this".

As a matter of fact this was a slaughter. IMHO This guy apparently wanted to see a lot of blood. Blood keeps gushing from wounds as long as the heart is still beating.

Now we know that the shooter had also pulled the hardrive from his computer and smashed it.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/chi-connecticut-school-massacre-20121216,0,3053853.story?page=2

 

[edward]

This isn't really new. I know some psycho shot a bunch of little kids at a school, doesn't really matter to me how many or what kind of guns he used or what his exact path through the school was.

This thread isn't about what matters to you.

 

[enosis_]

The fact that the Bushmaster was used in all of the shootings had been clarified. The "HE" is the local coroner and he did know what weapon was used. Shooting the victims multiple times with a .223 caliber was what I meant when I stated "it doesn't get any more violent than this".

As a matter of fact this was a slaughter. IMHO This guy apparently wanted to see a lot of blood. Blood keeps gushing from wounds as long as the heart is still beating.

Now we know that the shooter had also pulled the hardrive from his computer and smashed it.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/chi-connecticut-school-massacre-20121216,0,3053853.story?page=2

Your link says the killer was known to play a violent video game

 

[SixNein]

If anything came out of this shooting, it is the outpouring of love for guns. I mentioned on facebook that some regulations need to come down on weapons, and one would have thought I declared myself a follower of Hitler or Stalin from all of the reactions. But the fact is America does have a very severe gun problem, and it also seems to have a very poor perception of risk.

Any proposed regulation on gun sales will be ineffective because we have an estimated 300 million guns in circulation. So I think the only way to prevent these types of events is to begin rationing bullets. One should have to go through a rigorous background check to obtain bullets, they should state the purpose of buying the bullets, and the bullets should be rationed based upon the stated purpose. If one needs bullets for home protection, he or she should be given enough bullets to provide such protection and not a single bullet over it. All of this should be put into databases, and people violating the rules should be identified and punished.

So under such a plan, people can keep their guns and have all they want. But the bullets are rationed without respect to how many guns one owns.

 

[OmCheeto]

This thread isn't about what matters to you.

Did I ever tell you about the time I thought you were from Oregon, because your avatar looks like a Chia-car?

 

[nsaspook]

Your link says the killer was known to play a violent video game

Not surprised, as it's consistent with the overall "threat assessment" profile. In isolation it means nothing. We need to use a threat assessment approach when dealing with these kind of people at a young age. It's not classic profiling or looking for possibly dangerous people. It's looking at "pathways to violent action", what set of behaviors and conditions that have lead to violence in the past.

http://www.secretservice.gov/ntac/ntac_bsl99.pdf

 

[Astronuc]

I'm sure the FBI and law enforcement agencies are collecting evidence and working hard to build a profile of Lanza in order to cevelop a better threat assessment model.

Meahwhile Yahoo reports that police report -

Investigators said he possessed "multiple high-capacity magazines" for all three weapons.

Police haven't revealed how many bullets Lanza fired during his 10-minute shooting spree, but admit he still had many more live rounds with him when he took his own life as first responders closed in.

"Hundreds of bullets, yes," said Lt. J. Paul Vance, a spokesman for the Connecticut State Police.

. . . .

The victims at the school were shot multiple times, and apparently Lanza shot his mother multiple times. He was apparently determined to take many more lives.

So I would imagine that investigators will explore the accumulation of his stockpile and try to decide how to apply that in the future.

I would imagine that the question to be asked at some point is "how to keep guns out of the hands of people who are intent on committing mass homicide?"

 

[edward]

Your link says the killer was known to play a violent video game

That is true. ??

 

[edward]

Magazines that fed bullets into the primary firearm used to kill 26 children and adults at a Connecticut school would have been banned under state legislation that the National Rifle Association and gunmakers successfully fought.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-12-16/ban-on-30-round-gun-magazines-in-connecticut-died-after-pressure.html

 

[nsaspook]

I would imagine that the question to be asked at some point is "how to keep guns out of the hands of people who are intent on committing mass homicide?"

I'm sure the question will be asked and answered. A more useful question is how do we find the people who are likely to have the intent to commit mass homicide with guns or any other weapon before the decision is made.

 

[encorp]

I think once we find out what the school district suggested for the killer that the mother opposed, to the point of taking him out of school and home schooling him, we'll have the answer if not be very close.

From what school friends have said, it's likely the school wanted him assessed for mental problems. Especially his talk of wanting to "blow things up".

I think the mother wanted to "cover up" her son's mental problems.

Mom: you want to "blow things up? I bought a bunch of guns, let's go to the shooting range". IMO to above. Except these are all things that happened, with the exception of the exact conversation. and THIS IS OFF TOPIC, ok? so let's not go there.

Rule of thumb, if it's part of the investigation, guns used, mother, mental illness, etc... that's ok.

See previous posts with links to the items in this post.

And before someone says again that I am against gun ownership, no I am just against certain guns, and artillery. And the capacity and the number. A homeowner doesn't need a highpowered arsenal to scare off a robber.

That and his mother was preparing for the "end of the world" so to speak, so she probably impressed a lot (of bad) on his fragile mind.

Though I believe strict gun control is super important.. I don't think it would have stopped this in this situation, I think that there are a lot of issues. One of them being that we so easily allow the media to propagate "end of world" hype that feeds people like this guys mother and sets the stage for this kind of thing.