Why Would an Adult Target Kindergarten Students in a Shooting?

[Adyssa]

I'm sure the question will be asked and answered. A more useful question is how do we find the people who are likely to have the intent to commit mass homicide with guns or any other weapon before the decision is made.

a) read minds
b) make generalizations about various types of people and lock anyone who ticks enough boxes up
c) lock everyone up

It all gets very Orwellian. Personally, I think

d) make weapons less available

is a far more reasonable choice. Of course, people that like shooting things are going to be upset, but you know what, I don't care two hoots about people that like shooting things, for sport, for protection, for whatever. The rest of us enjoy non-violent hobbies and deal with problems of personal safety in non-violent ways.

At the macro level, we are all people of the world but we fence ourselves in. Go and get to know your neighbours (even the ones that dress funny, or talk funny), be compassionate towards the poor and outcast, help out in your community, be the person that helps some young rascal find a path that doesn't lead to violence and despair. We all turn a blind eye to the parts of society that don't match our own little happy ideals, and it is we that are guilty of ignoring problems until they become massacres. You don't need more security, you need more heart. If this young lad had a well-intentioned friend he might not have done what he did. It's not an instant fix, but there is no instant fix. The road to peace requires patience and diligence from everybody.

People throw their arms up and say it's all too hard, and I say they're the weakest most pathetic example of what a human could and should be. Nothing worthwhile is accomplished with ease.

I guess we could always arm the teachers, and the kids, and the parents, and lockdown the schools, and install CCTV everywhere, and predict what crimes this and that individual might intend to commit and take them out pre-emptively, and I mean, if we're heading down this road, why not just put everyone who doesn't act and look like Everybody Loves Raymond in a big dark hole and bury them all? The couple of million white, middle class Americans that are left can all have a great time together.

 

[Evo]

a) read minds
b) make generalizations about various types of people and lock anyone who ticks enough boxes up
c) lock everyone up

It all gets very Orwellian. Personally, I think

d) make weapons less available

is a far more reasonable choice. Of course, people that like shooting things are going to be upset, but you know what, I don't care two hoots about people that like shooting things, for sport, for protection, for whatever. The rest of us enjoy non-violent hobbies and deal with problems of personal safety in non-violent ways.

At the macro level, we are all people of the world but we fence ourselves in. Go and get to know your neighbours (even the ones that dress funny, or talk funny), be compassionate towards the poor and outcast, help out in your community, be the person that helps some young rascal find a path that doesn't lead to violence and despair. We all turn a blind eye to the parts of society that don't match our own little happy ideals, and it is we that are guilty of ignoring problems until they become massacres. You don't need more security, you need more heart. If this young lad had a well-intentioned friend he might not have done what he did. It's not an instant fix, but there is no instant fix. The road to peace requires patience and diligence from everybody.

People throw their arms up and say it's all too hard, and I say they're the weakest most pathetic example of what a human could and should be. Nothing worthwhile is accomplished with ease.

I guess we could always arm the teachers, and the kids, and the parents, and lockdown the schools, and install CCTV everywhere, and predict what crimes this and that individual might intend to commit and take them out pre-emptively, and I mean, if we're heading down this road, why not just put everyone who doesn't act and look like Everybody Loves Raymond in a big dark hole and bury them all? The couple of million white, middle class Americans that are left can all have a great time together.

Excellent post, thank you.

 

[edward]

Did I ever tell you about the time I thought you were from Oregon, because your avatar looks like a Chia-car?

Is this post your way of telling me I need to CHILL a bit? If so you are right. I do.

 

[nsaspook]

a) read minds
b) make generalizations about various types of people and lock anyone who ticks enough boxes up
c) lock everyone up

It all gets very Orwellian. Personally, I think

d) make weapons less available

is a far more reasonable choice. Of course, people that like shooting things are going to be upset, but you know what, I don't care two hoots about people that like shooting things, for sport, for protection, for whatever. The rest of us enjoy non-violent hobbies and deal with problems of personal safety in non-violent ways.

I hope you feel better now but "Orwellian make weapons less available" ranting won't solve anything. "I don't care" is a very effective argument about your position.

 

[Drakkith]

Perhaps the best thing would be to do nothing. Further gun control? Less freedom. More safeguards in schools? Less freedoms for our younger citizens. Where do you stop? You are NOT going to be able to stop people from killing each other. Period. End of story. So you MUST accept the fact that people are going to kill other people. Knowing this, how far do you go to try to curb it? At what point do you say "You know what, we've done enough."

I know that I don't know. I suggest everyone think long and hard about how far you would be willing to go and ask yourself if you are willing to give up freedoms YOU like in the name of safety. Because I believe that is the issue here.

 

[justsomeguy]

I know that I don't know. I suggest everyone think long and hard about how far you would be willing to go and ask yourself if you are willing to give up freedoms YOU like in the name of safety. Because I believe that is the issue here.

This does bring the whole thread of discussion full circle. It's worth asking if giving up additional freedoms will make you more secure as well, before considering giving them up. For that matter, you need to ask, secure against what? In some cases, especially the gun control argument, more security against one type of threat leads directly to less security against another kind.

 

[encorp]

What bothers me most is that there are people out there who feel completely comfortable with a loss of life such as this being an acceptable price of admission for gun freedom.

 

[justsomeguy]

What bothers me most is that there are people out there who feel completely comfortable with a loss of life such as this being an acceptable price of admission for gun freedom.

I haven't heard of anyone expressing such a feeling, though there are many who believe that had that freedom been less restricted than it is, that this tragedy would have been averted.

 

[Drakkith]

What bothers me most is that there are people out there who feel completely comfortable with a loss of life such as this being an acceptable price of admission for gun freedom.

And some people are bothered that there are people out there who are completely comfortable with banning guns just because a small portion of people overall do bad things with them.

 

[edward]

This does bring the whole thread of discussion full circle. It's worth asking if giving up additional freedoms will make you more secure as well, before considering giving them up. For that matter, you need to ask, secure against what? In some cases, especially the gun control argument, more security against one type of threat leads directly to less security against another kind.

Actually no, the question will turn out to be do we give up high capacity magazines for the ones we all used a few years back before the high capacity magazines became available.

The original purpose of the NRA was to teach young American males to be better marksmen. More recently that bastardized into spraying as much lead as possible, when the profit potential became obvious.

 

[justsomeguy]

Actually no, the question will turn out to be do we give up high capacity magazines for the ones we all used a few years back before the high capacity magazines became available.

Who's "we all"? I've had so called "high capacity" magazines my entire life.

The original purpose of the NRA was to teach young American males to be better marksmen. More recently that bastardized into spraying as much lead as possible, when the profit potential became obvious.

The NRA has always been about protecting the second amendment, but what's that got to do with anything?

 

[nsaspook]

This does bring the whole thread of discussion full circle. It's worth asking if giving up additional freedoms will make you more secure as well, before considering giving them up. For that matter, you need to ask, secure against what? In some cases, especially the gun control argument, more security against one type of threat leads directly to less security against another kind.

When you see a defacto police state like China having the same problems it makes you think about how effective the tradition containment solutions of "limits on weapons" and government people control will be in controlling these types of events. They have restrictions on the length of knives you can buy without having to register them with their national identity cards and overall crime is low but mass attacks still happen with frightening frequency there.

 

[Evo]

When you see a defacto police state like China having the same problems it makes you think about how effective the tradition containment solutions of "limits on weapons" and government people control will be in controlling these types of events. They have restrictions on the length of knives you can buy without having to register them with their national identity cards and overall crime is low but mass attacks still happen with frightening frequency there.

But fatalities are limited.

Let's not make this another "gun thread" as they very quickly get closed as people become overly emotional.

Discussion needs to be about the shooter, you can discuss his use of his guns specifically, his family, and the impact on the community.

Thanks.

 

[justsomeguy]

"make weapons less available...I don't give two hoots about people that enjoy shooting" gets an "excellent post, thank you" but refutation of that position gets a "lets not make this about guns?" Sorry, but I'm smelling a double standard.

 

[Evo]

"make weapons less available...I don't give two hoots about people that enjoy shooting" gets an "excellent post, thank you" but refutation of that position gets a "lets not make this about guns?" Sorry, but I'm smelling a double standard.

I can lock the thread now and go back and delete every off topic post in this thread and reduce it to two pages, or I can request that the thread get back on topic before it gets locked.

Which do you prefer?

 

[justsomeguy]

I can lock the thread now and go back and delete every off topic post in this thread and reduce it to two pages, or I can request that the thread get back on topic before it gets locked.

Which do you prefer?

Either is fine. What I'm raising a flag over is you participating in the line of discussion you're asking to be stopped. I expect you to enforce the rules of course. I don't expect you to do so only when the comments disagree with your personal positions.

The warning, I must say, was entirely expected.

 

[Evo]

Either is fine. What I'm raising a flag over is you participating in the line of discussion you're asking to be stopped. I expect you to enforce the rules of course. I don't expect you to do so only when the comments disagree with your personal positions.

The warning, I must say, was entirely expected.

Many people have expressed their opinion, including me. When the thread starts to get too derailed, it's time to bring it back. This is not my first request to get back on topic.

 

[russ_watters]

We should probably always create parallel threads for these sorts of things: one to talk about the incident itself, one to talk about gun control.

 

[Evo]

We should probably always create parallel threads for these sorts of things: one to talk about the incident itself, one to talk about gun control.

We've had too many gun control threads and recently. Another is not going to go anywhere the previous haven't gone. So, no gun control threads until a new law is proposed that could change things and that bears discussing.

 

[mheslep]

This is a dreadful event, and my condolences to all Americans in general.

Thanks Arildno.

 

[nitsuj]

My guess at the majority of violent crime in the US:

Parents in neglected communities who have to work hard leave their kids to run the neighborhood; education system (or lack of) in a neglected area doesn't make the most effective child care. Children get raised by other children who have children before they become adults. Emotions and tribal behavior dominate the culture. Warped sense of family values and no education.

For the most part, I agree.

 

[mheslep]

These are the types of people who claim God will punish America for embracing gay marriage (like the Chick-Fil-A guy).

"the types of people"?

No, Huckabee is not a Falwell, God-will-punish-you type of homophobe.

 

[mheslep]

... All one needs is one rifle or handgun to go and commit a mass killing.

With a bolt action only rifle, even a very high powered model, a mass killing would require a fairly high degree of planning, skill, and probably training, especially indoors.

 

[jedishrfu]

Baltimore Sun article on the Bushmaster:

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/opinion/editorial/bs-ed-gun-control-20121217,0,2421497.story

Sentiment may be changing.

and on I am Adam Lanzas Mom

http://healthland.time.com/2012/12/...fraid-of-their-children/?iid=tl-main-mostpop2

These articles should be the ones that frame debate on how to solve this problem.

 

[turbo]

With a bolt action only rifle, even a very high powered model, a mass killing would require a fairly high degree of planning, skill, and probably training, especially indoors.

My hunting rifle is a Ruger Model 1 chambered for .45-70. If you need more than one shot, you shouldn't be shooting at deer. One shot, one deer.

I have no particular beef against semi-automatic rifles with clips, but anybody who has to own a rifle styled like a military issue (M16 or AK47 for instance) has issues. One of the companies I consulted with many years back was Bushmaster, with a plant in southern Maine. The manager was quite proud of their ability to produce accurized and heavy fluted target barrels. That's all well and good, but most of their clientele wanted the Bushmasters because they looked "bad".

I don't want a fringe of gun-owners to ruin it for the rest of us.

BTW, the sicko could have killed a lot of kids with very old technology, if he had wanted. I sold my collection of antique Winchester lever actions years back to buy a couple of Canon cameras and some lenses. Some of those Winchesters were deadly tack-drivers. .38-55 is not such a popular caliber these days, but out on the target range, it was impossible to beat. You don't need to have a Bushmaster to kill a whole bunch of people. I probably won't be able to watch the evening news for the rest of the week, while idiots blather about the killer's arsenal and re-trace his route through the school. [rant mode off]

 

[Evo]

Obviously being autistic was not the issue, we don't even know if he had autism spectrum disorder, he apparently had at least one mental disorder that caused him to be violent that would be outside of the autism spectrum. We don't even know if the mother had him diagnosed or sought professional help for him. She might have been ashamed and just hoped people didn't find out. IMO.

My question is why, since this mother obviously knew her son had serious problems, as is referenced in the article below, would she give him guns? If this woman was alive, I wouldn't be surprised if she would be charged for her role in giving her underaged mentally ill son access to such an enormous amount of ammunition in addition to the guns.

Nancy Lanza, whose gun collection was raided by her son Adam for Friday’s massacre at Sandy Hook school, was part of the “prepper” movement, which urges readiness for social chaos by hoarding supplies and training with weapons.

“She prepared for the worst,” her sister-in-law Marsha Lanza told reporters. “Last time we visited her in person, we talked about prepping – are you ready for what could happen down the line, when the economy collapses?”

It also emerged that Mrs Lanza had spoken of her fears less than a week before the attack that she was “losing” her son. “She said it was getting worse.

continued...

http://www.salon.com/2012/12/17/nancy_lanza_was_a_prepper/singleton/

 

[turbo]

There are degrees of preparation. (not that I ever thought of it that way) One of my great-aunts was never without at least 100# of flour and probably 50# of sugar, and a truck-load of canned goods. Her house was tidy and neat, but head down into the cellar and be prepared to be inundated with staple foods. Suffering through the Depression and struggling to feed one's kids can do that, I guess.

Her male progeny and my mother's brothers were well-armed. though. We needed to hunt to have meat. When I was old enough to be trusted, my father told me that I had only rarely eaten beef before then because he and my older male relatives routinely poached moose to feed us. They couldn't afford to buy us beef.

 

[Evo]

There are degrees of preparation. (not that I ever thought of it that way) One of my great-aunts was never without at least 100# of flour and probably 50# of sugar, and a truck-load of canned goods. Her house was tidy and neat, but head down into the cellar and be prepared to be inundated with staple foods. Suffering through the Depression and struggling to feed one's kids can do that, I guess.

Her male progeny and my mother's brothers were well-armed. though. We needed to hunt to have meat. When I was old enough to be trusted, my father told me that I had only rarely eaten beef before then because he and my older male relatives routinely poached moose to feed us. They couldn't afford to buy us beef.

This has nothing to do with fearing a "doomsday" event, or as her sister described her

Marsha Lanza told the Chicago Sun-Times that Nancy Lanza wanted guns for protection. "She prepared for the worst," Marsha Lanza told the newspaper. "I didn't know that they (the guns) would be used on her."

http://news.yahoo.com/gunmans-mother-kept-trials-home-life-hidden-010414000.html

She was rich. Please don't make off topic posts.

 

[Astronuc]

There is still a lot we on the outside do not know regarding the precursors to the tragedy of last Friday. It will take time for the authorities to do their investigation.

The tragedy, the loss of innocent life, is for many of us beyond words. Future actions will not resurrect those 20 children and 6 adults.

Beyond the grief, we perhaps can look forward for ways to prevent such occurrences in the future. That is the topic of a different thread.


Reflecting of the past 3 days, I think we need to maintain a healthy amount of skepticism at what is being reported in the media (the details changed so often, and erroneous information was presented), and to the extent possible, maintain a rational perspective while absorbing the news of a heart-breaking, gut-wrenching event.

This morning the NY Times published the following:
Gunman Took Big Supply of Ammunition to School After Killing Mother at Home
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/17/nyregion/sandy-hook-school-shooting-in-newtown.html

Lt. J. Paul Vance, a spokesman for the Connecticut State Police, said most of the shots were fired from a .223 Bushmaster semiautomatic carbine, a military-style assault weapon. Mr. Lanza was also carrying two semiautomatic pistols, a 10-millimeter Glock and a 9-millimeter Sig Sauer. A shotgun was found in the car.

The guns were legally acquired and registered by Ms. Lanza, who had sometimes taken her son to shooting ranges, according to law enforcement officials and her friends. Mr. Lanza, who former classmates said had had a developmental disorder, lived with his mother.

While Lieutenant Vance said he did not yet know how many bullets had been fired, he did say investigators recovered “numerous” empty 30-round magazines for the Bushmaster rifle.

So it appears that the gunman had at least 4 guns, one which was left in the car, and he used the other 3, and mostly the semi-automatic carbine (assuming that's the right term).

And the investigation is ongoing -
Gunman’s computers may be key in Connecticut school shooting investigation
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout...-school-shooting-investigation-174438304.html

 

[Borg]

And the investigation is ongoing -
Gunman’s computers may be key in Connecticut school shooting investigation
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout...-school-shooting-investigation-174438304.html

The national news is reporting that the hard drive was removed and heavily damaged.

 

[Astronuc]

The national news is reporting that the hard drive was removed and heavily damaged.

I read that in the media. We will have to wait for authorities to do their investigation. I also read the Adam Lanza used two bedrooms, and one was used to house his computer(s). Let's give them time.

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/2012/1...l-a-mystery-as-community-holds-first-funerals

A comment on APM's (NPR affiliate) Marketplace stated that it will take months to sort out all the details.


Meanwhile - In memory of the victims

Rachel D'Avino, 29, was a behavioral therapist who had just started working at Sandy Hook Elementary, according to her obituary published in the Waterbury Republican American. She was finishing her doctorate, and her boyfriend was getting ready to propose to her on Christmas Eve. Just days before Friday's massacre, D'Avino's 27-year-old boyfriend, Anthony Cerritelli, had asked her parents for permission to pop the question to their daughter.

The funerals of Noah Pozner and Jack Pinto were held today. Peace be upon them and their families.
http://www.dariennewsonline.com/local/article/Funerals-held-for-Noah-Pozner-Jack-Pinto-4123833.php

Image of 12 of 20 child victims: http://media.zenfs.com/en_us/News/R...0J9I00_RTROPTP_2_USA-SHOOTING-CONNECTICUT.JPG

Newtown Couple Vow to Live for Dead Daughter, Jessica Rekos
http://gma.yahoo.com/newtown-couple-vow-live-dead-daughter-113812032--abc-news-topstories.html

and neighbor, Gene Rosen, took 6 young survivors into his home
http://news.yahoo.com/neighbor-took-6-young-survivors-home-205020443.html

Rosen, a 69-year-old retired psychologist, took the four girls and two boys into his home, and over the next few hours gave them toys, listened to their stories and called their frantic parents.

Let me express my appreciation to JetBlue and Delta Airlines!

Noah's family wanted letters from his friends and family buried with him, and now thanks to social media and the compassion displayed by one airline, the Pozner family's wish will be granted.

On Sunday, Noah's aunt, Victoria Haller, tweeted to Delta and JetBlue asking for help getting letters from her 5-year-old son, who lives in Seattle with her, to Connecticut in time for today's funeral. Both airlines responded. Delta tweeted back a phone number to its cargo department. JetBlue tweeted Haller back asking for her number so they could get in touch with her.

. . . .

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/trendin...-wish-sandy-hook-victim-family-202004360.html


Kindly ignore the members of Westboro Baptist who plan to picket the funerals.

 

[Curious3141]

Evil people will do evil things. Like over in China where they seem to have a knife stabbing problem. http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2012/12/14/china-school-stabbings/1770395/ A stabbing spree killed 20 and injured over 50 into 2010 , and now once again another stabbing takes place this time only injuring some students.

So basically, what I'm trying to get at is if you take away the guns. Disturbed people will find other ways to commit these acts of violence.

That has never been in question. The only salient point is how much damage can someone cause with a gun vs a knife.

It is true that "guns don't kill people, people kill people." But guns make it a whole lot easier for some people to kill a whole lot more people in a much shorter time.

 

[Astronuc]

My question is why, since this mother obviously knew her son had serious problems, as is referenced in the article below, would she give him guns? If this woman was alive, I wouldn't be surprised if she would be charged for her role in giving her underaged mentally ill son access to such an enormous amount of ammunition in addition to the guns.

This may be part of the answer.

Hanoman said Nancy Lanza told him she introduced guns to Adam as a way to teach him responsibility.

"Guns require a lot of respect, and she really tried to instill that responsibility within him, and he took to it. He loved being careful with them. He made it a source of pride," he said.

http://news.yahoo.com/gunmans-mother-kept-trials-home-life-hidden-010414000.html

 

[BobG]

Evil people will do evil things. Like over in China where they seem to have a knife stabbing problem. http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/w...bings/1770395/ A stabbing spree killed 20 and injured over 50 into 2010 , and now once again another stabbing takes place this time only injuring some students.

So basically, what I'm trying to get at is if you take away the guns. Disturbed people will find other ways to commit these acts of violence.

Your statement that "a stabbing spree" killed 20 is incorrect. Five separate stabbing sprees in China in 2010 killed 20.

Other ways to commit these acts of violence can be deadly, but don't kill so many so fast.

Likewise, the deadliest (Michigan, 1927) included explosives. Yet they aren't used as often because they're harder to get than guns.

 

[BobG]

This has nothing to do with fearing a "doomsday" event, or as her sister described her

http://news.yahoo.com/gunmans-mother-kept-trials-home-life-hidden-010414000.html

She was rich. Please don't make off topic posts.

She received at least $240,000 a year in alimony.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2012/12/17/nancy-lanza-conn-adam-lanza/1774611/