8.9 earthquake in Japan: tsunami warnings

[Angry Citizen]

Yeah, but I'm thinking of their last radiological release, and the PM actually losing his cool with them. Putting together the pieces of what Astronuc has said, it really sounds like TEPCO above all is on the hook here. Yes, mother nature kicked them in the balls, but this is still not acceptable.

Hell man, look at the ambient radiation in Toykyo.. almost double on average what it was before... Tokyo... not Fukishima. Let's just hope that's all gamma and not alpha emitting, or you multiply that by 20 (at LEAST) in conversion to Sieverts.

Where did you get that information? The data I have suggests that levels over Tokyo have stabilized to just above background.

 

[nismaratwork]

Where did you get that information? The data I have suggests that levels over Tokyo have stabilized to just above background.

From Greg's friend.

http://park18.wakwak.com/~weather/geiger_index.html

Note the average vs. December of last year. I should add, during the major leak, it reached up to 90 CPM... that's absurd.

edit: Note, that's in TOKYO... a couple hundred miles from Fukishima.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

CNN reports that a man named Jasco [spelling?] from the Atomic Energy Commission, just testified before Congress and stated that the spent fuel rods are dry [fully exposed], there has been a hydrogen explosion, and secondary containment has been destroyed.

I think I got that right...

 

[nismaratwork]

@Astronuc: Wise bearded sage of the atom, is this "Alvarez" fellow talking on CNN a reliable guy? He looks like he's about to cry, and is talking about people having to essentially end their lives by working in this plant. I made a bit of a hobby studying radiation poisoning... that strikes me as a horrendous thing to burden a man with. On the other hand, if things go badly, it's their families and friends who will be exposed.

What a situation...

 

[nismaratwork]

CNN reports that a man named Jasco [spelling?] from the Atomic Energy Commission, just testified before Congress and stated that the spent fuel rods are dry, there has been a hydrogen explosion, and secondary containment has been destroyed.

Can I curse just once here? PLEASE... I'll do it in language that (probably) nobody even knows here...

 

[Angry Citizen]

From Greg's friend.

http://park18.wakwak.com/~weather/geiger_index.html

Note the average vs. December of last year. I should add, during the major leak, it reached up to 90 CPM... that's absurd.

edit: Note, that's in TOKYO... a couple hundred miles from Fukishima.

Mean in December: 14.00

Mean now: 17.55

That's 25% higher, not 100%. For all intents and purposes, that IS just above background.

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

He looks like he's about to cry, and is talking about people having to essentially end their lives by working in this plant. I made a bit of a hobby studying radiation poisoning... that strikes me as a horrendous thing to burden a man with. On the other hand, if things go badly, it's their families and friends who will be exposed.

Reminds me of U-571

http://www.smh.com.au/environment/e...water-in-reactor-runs-out-20110317-1bxm8.html

 

[Astronuc]

CNN reports that a man named Jasco [spelling?] from the Atomic Energy Commission, just testified before Congress and stated that the spent fuel rods are dry [fully exposed], there has been a hydrogen explosion, and secondary containment has been destroyed.

I think I got that right...

US Nuclear Regulatory Commission (NRC), Gregory Jaczko, made an announcement that "there is no water in one of the reactor's pools, leading to "extremely high" radiation levels," according to the link provided by Greg.

The hydrogen could have come from the core or the SFPs. Although published reports have indicated the Zr+H20(steam) reaction which produces hydrogen occurred in the cores, it could have occurred on spent fuel rods if they were exposed to air and allowed to heat up.

I can't verify it personally, but I would expect Jaczko has. Then again, I have no way of confirming that.

Getting electrical power back to Units 1-4 is of paramount importance.

BTW - I'm a purist when it comes to nuclear energy and nuclear fuel. The cardinal rule is - "thou shall not release fission products into the environment." All other rules support that.

 

[Lancelot59]

Totally agree. They better receive one hell of a company bonus at the end of this -- at least.

If they live long enough to collect it. A good number if them I expect will develop cancer.

 

[DevilsAvocado]

CNN reports that a man named Jasco [spelling?] from the Atomic Energy Commission, just testified before Congress and stated that the spent fuel rods are dry [fully exposed], there has been a hydrogen explosion, and secondary containment has been destroyed.

Reminds me of U-571

http://www.smh.com.au/environment/e...water-in-reactor-runs-out-20110317-1bxm8.html

US Nuclear Regulatory Commission (NRC), Gregory Jaczko, made an announcement that "there is no water in one of the reactor's pools, leading to "extremely high" radiation levels," according to the link provided by Greg.

No no no this is just crazy

If the heat is rising… and the Zirconium fuel cladding oxidize to Zirconium dioxide and releases hydrogen... and...

 

[nismaratwork]

If they live long enough to collect it. A good number if them I expect will develop cancer.

I doubt they will last so long... it's not as though their dose could be fractionated, and the Q factor for neutrons, and alpha emitters is miserable. I'd be surprised if some were not already experiencing frank symptoms... ideally they might avoid this, but given the amount of time spent and fighting fires... I doubt cancer is their concern.

Six days they've been in there...


I honestly can't imagine a worse outcome for this kind of reactor except a massive criticality incident... and I'm not sure that's worse.

@Greg: Indeed... what can they do? They can stay and try to save the communities and people they know and love... or run. I don't think that's an easy choice... I'd be terrified, but if it meant protecting my friends and family... it's just one life, you know?

@Angry Citizen: It is now, you're right, at least on average. That updates every 10 minutes however, and it wasn't that low when I had last checked. I'd add... without knowing if that's Krypton, Ne, Xe... or Cesium... you can't really know the impact on humans.

 

[nismaratwork]

This would all be easier to take without what's happening in Bahrain, Libya, Saudi Arabia, Haiti still in shambles, The world and USA economy struggling back, two wars, division in Pakistan... and so on.

I'm not usually one to be emotional, and especiallly emotionally overwhelmed, but I'm feeling a bit overwhelmed. I think I'm too close to Japan to maintain a proper intellectual distance... Iwata Prefecture... I've walked around huge parts of it, and now I've seen it literally washed away and burned.

I feel... numb... how must these poor people trying to stay alive and find family and friend in Japan feel?

 

[Angry Citizen]

@Angry Citizen: It is now, you're right, at least on average. That updates every 10 minutes however, and it wasn't that low when I had last checked. I'd add... without knowing if that's Krypton, Ne, Xe... or Cesium... you can't really know the impact on humans.

The time stamps on the graph are every three hours though. You can see the history of the radiation measurement over fifteen hours on the graph. I think your source was simply mistaken; or perhaps Greg's friend is mistaken? God I hope it's the former.

As bad as the radiation seems to be at Fukushima, it does seem to be largely contained there. It may be premature, but I think the only people who will suffer long term damage as a result of this incident will be the poor worker guys. Seriously, what everyone's saying is true. These guys are freakin' heroes. If they don't get free, state of the art treatment for any cancers they receive, then the world is truly unjust.

 

[nismaratwork]

The time stamps on the graph are every three hours though. You can see the history of the radiation measurement over fifteen hours on the graph. I think your source was simply mistaken; or perhaps Greg's friend is mistaken? God I hope it's the former.

As bad as the radiation seems to be at Fukushima, it does seem to be largely contained there. It may be premature, but I think the only people who will suffer long term damage as a result of this incident will be the poor worker guys. Seriously, what everyone's saying is true. These guys are freakin' heroes. If they don't get free, state of the art treatment for any cancers they receive, then the world is truly unjust.

I don't think we can assume containment.. Jazco wazs pretty clear: secondary containment gone.

Personally, I'm guessing the snow has something to do with the lower readings, especially given that the reserve pool is by all accounts, dry now.

The radiation on-site HAS to be lethal AFAIK, but I don't know what kind of shielding they have on their person, or if they have a 'safe' region to allow for the dose to be fractionated. By ignorant guess is that they're killing themselves, very bravely, and are unlikely to survive to die of cancer.

 

[Lacy33]

Reminds me of U-571

http://www.smh.com.au/environment/e...water-in-reactor-runs-out-20110317-1bxm8.html

All this and more is starting to bring us together as one heart.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

It seems pretty clear to me that they have either completely lost control of the situation, or all but so.

No doubt this is the end of the road in the US, and in many other countries I would bet, for nuclear power.

 

[DevilsAvocado]

Large satellite image from digitalglobe.com on smoke coming out of unit 3:

http://www.digitalglobe.com/downloads/featured_images/japan_earthquaketsu_fukushima_daiichi2_march16_2011_dg.jpg

... looks like a warzone ... unit 4 & 3 is completely demolished ...

 

[Angry Citizen]

Personally, I'm guessing the snow has something to do with the lower readings, especially given that the reserve pool is by all accounts, dry now.

Japan says that just ain't so:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110316/ap_on_bi_ge/as_japan_earthquake

 

[DevilsAvocado]

No doubt this is the end of the road in the US, and in many other countries I would bet, for nuclear power.

You are a very brave man. This kind of opinion is not "allowed" in this thread by some, they will call you "hysterical" and some will even scream "You're going to die man!" accusing you for threatening them.

Stick around for a moment; the "screaming monkeys" are coming...


(Personally I’m pretty neutral and pragmatic, but there might be something in your claim...)

 

[robillarde]

Hi - does anyone know an/the math probability/ies [] (considering last ten days [] of quakes and any data available that could be relevant> (been looking at Iris) of worst case scenario- like meltdown meets quake, how far could she blow? What damage would be most likely to occur (although naturally way too unlikely due to depth) if they 'met' - this is what people are worried about as well as radiation-invest in iodine ((sorry)?!

 

[Proton Soup]

is there any possibility that background radiation increases in tokyo are related to the recent eruptions at the Shinmoedake volcano?

 

[Angry Citizen]

Interesting point. I think that's a possibility worth checking out, but I consider Fukushima the far more likely source.

 

[DevilsAvocado]

is there any possibility that background radiation increases in tokyo are related to the recent eruptions at the Shinmoedake volcano?

Very good point PS! I think it would be fairly easy to determine by checking the wind directions.

 

[DevilsAvocado]

... like meltdown meets quake, how far could she blow?

I’m not sure I understand... the main quake M8.9 (9.0) has already occurred (several km away)? A meltdown would go straight down (my guess: a couple of meters at worst).

When it comes to meltdowns, it’s what goes up in the air that matters, not what goes down.

 

[DevilsAvocado]

NHK World: They will try to use water cannon (and firefighters?) to insert water in the spent fuel ponds...

 

[Al68]

It seems pretty clear to me that they have either completely lost control of the situation, or all but so.

No doubt this is the end of the road in the US, and in many other countries I would bet, for nuclear power.

Maybe, but only because of irrational hysteria. This situation isn't good, but even assuming (reasonably) worst case scenario here, putting things in any kind of perspective at all shows nuclear power to be far safer than any alternative.

And it's not like the worst case scenario for these plants even remotely compares to the overall earthquake/tsunami consequences to Japan.

 

[nismaratwork]

It seems pretty clear to me that they have either completely lost control of the situation, or all but so.

No doubt this is the end of the road in the US, and in many other countries I would bet, for nuclear power.

I hope you're wrong, but given the power of the coal/LNG lobbies, I can't say you're wrong.

For me, this is a case to seriously retrofit and rebuild; this is our infrastructure stimulus: build and design new plants.

It's better than coal...

@DA: Wait... you mean 'The China Syndrome' WASN'T a documentary?!

 

[nismaratwork]

NHK World: They will try to use water cannon (and firefighters?) to insert water in the spent fuel ponds...

Wow... that's almost exactly like pissing on a bonfire.

 

[DevilsAvocado]

Ivan, what did I tell you? Now you’re "hysterical"...

 

[nismaratwork]

Ivan, what did I tell you? Now you’re "hysterical"...

I'm giving Ivan the benefit of the doubt... I suspect he means that due to hysteria and lobbies it's going down, not by need alone.

 

[Proton Soup]

Wow... that's almost exactly like pissing on a bonfire.

makes perfect sense to me. I'm just aghast that they seemed to have forgot about all that active fuel up there drying out the pond.

 

[nismaratwork]

makes perfect sense to me. I'm just aghast that they seemed to have forgot about all that active fuel up there drying out the pond.

Yeah... I don't know what can be done though. I still can't believe the EDGs were so low in the facility...

 

[Astronuc]

Hopefully, I'll be headed to Fukushima as soon as feasible.

 

[lisab]

Tonight after work, I went jogging at the park down the street. There's an area there with a pagoda, a Shinto shrine, and a nice Japanese garden (not uncommon in parks on the US west coast). On a bench, an elderly Japanese couple sat, loudly chanting in prayer. Very sad, and so beautiful.

 

[turbo]

Hopefully, I'll be headed to Fukushima as soon as feasible.

My wife says that if you do that, she'll kill you next time she sees you. We'd like to have you folks around for awhile.