8.9 earthquake in Japan: tsunami warnings

[nismaratwork]

Wow, that was fast!


http://www.globes.co.il/serveen/globes/docview.asp?did=1000631232&fid=1725
http://piersmorgan.blogs.cnn.com/20...e-to-reconsider-nuclear-power/?iref=allsearch

Fantatic </sarcam>

Yep, no reason to be concerned about fracking, pumping and shipping LNG, and burning coal...


...Why is nuclear so reviled when what we have is already so incredibly lethal on a global scale?

 

[nismaratwork]

It's a big ol' world out there. Or under there as the case may be.

What really gets at me is some of the jokes people are making about this.

For instance, one person claims that it's a scam because everything looks fine on google streetview. I think that was meant as an ironic joke.
I also heard some people saying that the earthquake was karma getting a japan for the attack at pearl harbour. Which makes no sense.

I guess some people find it amusing.

I'm all for laughing in the face of death and tragedy, but it has to be funny, not exploitive and mean.

Those aren't really jokes, just anger and dislike and infantile sensibilities leaking out, you know? It's a pretty ugly thing to see...

...Besides, it just shows AGAIN how little many people grasp the concept of Karma.

 

[FlexGunship]

...Why is nuclear so reviled when what we have is already so incredibly lethal on a global scale?

Likely because of the association with "nuclear weapons." I'm sure a guy named Joe Hitler running for president would have really bad luck but not because of his political views.

EDIT: I know it's inappropriate to play a "numbers" game, but how many people must die as a direct result of this disaster for it to be even with coal on a death/gigawatt basis? I did this calculation before here: (https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=2882522&postcount=8)

 

[jhae2.718]

...Why is nuclear so reviled when what we have is already so incredibly lethal on a global scale?

Nuclear energy involves ATOMS and RADIATION, and those are dangerous.

 

[nismaratwork]

Likely because of the association with "nuclear weapons." I'm sure a guy named Joe Hitler running for president would have really bad luck but not because of his political views.

True, although I'd have thought 'Hussein' would be a more immidiate downer.

Besides, Ivan is anti-nuclear, but he knows the difference between 'sizzle' and 'KABOOM'. I want to know why informed and rational people hold a view that I don't understand... the nuts I get, and the people who just hear 'atom' and think 'Ivy Mike', but not others.

 

[nismaratwork]

Nuclear energy involves ATOMS and RADIATION, and those are dangerous.

Hmmm... people are going to be very disturbed when they realize they're also made of atoms, and by gum, EMIT radiation!

Oh my, place me in a cask ASAP!

 

[FlexGunship]

Besides, Ivan is anti-nuclear, but he knows the difference between 'sizzle' and 'KABOOM'. I want to know why informed and rational people hold a view that I don't understand... the nuts I get, and the people who just hear 'atom' and think 'Ivy Mike', but not others.

Here is one of Ivan's previous posts (https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=2883023&postcount=13). I'm not sure if his views have changed since then, but he WAS concerned about intentional misuse of a nuclear reactor. (As opposed to intentional misuse of fuel oil, for example (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ANFO).)

 

[nismaratwork]

Here is one of Ivan's previous posts. I'm not sure if his views have changed since then, but he WAS concerned about intentional misuse of a nuclear reactor. (As opposed to intentional misuse of oil.) https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=2883023&postcount=13

Hmmm... understand I really like and respect Ivan, so I want to understand his view, whether or not I agree.

I'll admit, the misuse of oil money is horrible, but some twit with a cropduster and spent fuel could do a LOT of damage.

The thing is, if we were united in this issue, we could have a *useful* central storage facility with rail access. This would no longer leave spent fuel on-site, which is of some concern both potential and practical.

I don't like some of our current reactor placements (Cali) or age (many), but the solution to me is a combination of wind, solar, and so that we all live long enough to get the fomer two really going... nuclear.

PBRs, and less exotic designs aren't just safer, they're more efficient in the use of the heat they generate. None of that can happen while we're just "anti-nuke"... who would invest in building these if they can't be licensed? NIMBY is literally killing us.

edit: To be fair, ANFO can do a lot of damage (Oklahoma City)... a pony nuke or dirty bomb would be FAR worse, economically, psychologically, and practically. The cleanup... oh man.

 

[FlexGunship]

edit: To be fair, ANFO can do a lot of damage (Oklahoma City)... a pony nuke or dirty bomb would be FAR worse, economically, psychologically, and practically. The cleanup... oh man.

Well, there's the question of intentional damage and unintentional damage. History has shown that there is much more intentional damage done by misuse of oil. Additionally, history has shown that there it much more unintentional damage done by oil. The same is true of coal.

Oddly, no one has found a way to misuse solar power to cause damage... or have they?

 

[nismaratwork]

Well, there's the question of intentional damage and unintentional damage. History has shown that there is much more intentional damage done by misuse of oil. Additionally, history has shown that there it much more unintentional damage done by oil. The same is true of coal.

Oddly, no one has found a way to misuse solar power to cause damage... or have they?

Heh, I have to admit that I've wondered at people who want installations in space to gather solar energy, and beam it as microwaves back to earth. That sounds like a pretty good weapons platform to me, given a bit of work; any time you can direct large amounts of energy, there can be trouble.

On the other hand, the ants have they're vengence, it's called, 'Them'. Those were BAD*** ants.

 

[FlexGunship]

From a few months ago.

Not to be overly utilitarian, but if you're discussing the dangers of power generation (which is not the purpose of the thread) shouldn't you count it in terms of watt-hours per death. Obviously, higher would be better! More power with fewer deaths.

Since I invented the unit, I'd like to call it the "toasty" (symbol is the Jesus fish, ichthys).


-Wind is pretty bad at 6.66 teratoasties.
-Rooftop solar is horrible at 2.27 teratoasties.
-Hydro is okay if you ignore Banqiao (the Chernobyl of hydroelectric) at 10 teratoasties, but a crappy 0.71 teratoasties if you include it.
-Nuclear has the best ratio at 25 teratoasties if you INCLUDE Chernobyl. If you don't include Chernobyl then it has a rating of 1875 teratoasties. That's 1.875 petatoasties! (That number includes a single death that was attributed to radiological exposure of a plant worker. There is still debate over that.)

For comparison, coal is only 0.006 teratoasties, and oil is 0.028 teratoasties.

Banqiao was responsible for 26,000 deaths directly, and 150,000 from famine and disease after. Chernobyl was responsible for 56 deaths directly and 19 more later were attributed to it. I vote we stop talking about Chernobyl entirely, forever, in the context of nuclear safety. It essentially works out to a rounding error for coal or oil.

EDIT: source: http://nextbigfuture.com/2008/03/deaths-per-twh-for-all-energy-sources.html

 

[nismaratwork]

From a few months ago.

Hmmm, that guy makes some good points!

 

[jhae2.718]

I have to say I really enjoyed the "petatoasties".

 

[FlexGunship]

Hmmm, that guy makes some good points!

Sometimes he's full of crap though.

 

[nismaratwork]

Sometimes he's full of crap though.

We tolerate his shortcomings in favor of his strengths.

 

[IMP]

Here is a link to an "audio" of the quake, as recorded deep underwater (1000 meters) with a 16X speed increase. There is also some new footage:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_thelookout/20110318/ts_yblog_thelookout/listen-to-japans-massive-quake

 

[BobG]

I'll admit, the misuse of oil money is horrible, but some twit with a cropduster and spent fuel could do a LOT of damage.

Or a simple truck spraying oil on dirt roads to eliminate dust.

This is an image of the Route 66 State Park in Missouri. If you look close, you'll notice the trees seem to grow in lanes. That's because the park used to be a small city called Times Beach. The lanes are the old dirt roads that had to be oiled to keep the dust down.

The person hired to do the oiling was a guy named Russell Bliss. Aside from hauling waste and oiling roads, he also subcontracted with a company called IPC to dispose of some of their waste. ICP was being paid $3,000 a load to haul toxic waste from a chemical company called Northeastern Pharmaceutical and Chemical Company and they would then turn around and pay Bliss $100 a load to dispose of it.

He disposed of it by mixing it with the oil he used to spray roads, stables, etc for miscellaneous customers, including the city of Times Beach. He dumped so much dioxin on the city roads that the federal government bought up the entire town, moved the residents, and then dug up a layer of topsoil, roads, etc to be incinerated.

Now the spot where the town used to be is the Route 66 State Park.

It doesn't take a terrorist - just some ignorant old guy that never finished high school that has no idea of what he's disposing of (of course, the fact that he mixed it with engine oil to dispose of it suggests he knew more than he ever admitted).

 

[nismaratwork]

Or a simple truck spraying oil on dirt roads to eliminate dust.

This is an image of the Route 66 State Park in Missouri. If you look close, you'll notice the trees seem to grow in lanes. That's because the park used to be a small city called Times Beach. The lanes are the old dirt roads that had to be oiled to keep the dust down.

The person hired to do the oiling was a guy named Russell Bliss. Aside from hauling waste and oiling roads, he also subcontracted with a company called IPC to dispose of some of their waste. ICP was being paid $3,000 a load to haul toxic waste from a chemical company called Northeastern Pharmaceutical and Chemical Company and they would then turn around and pay Bliss $100 a load to dispose of it.

He disposed of it by mixing it with the oil he used to spray roads, stables, etc for miscellaneous customers, including the city of Times Beach. He dumped so much dioxin on the city roads that the federal government bought up the entire town, moved the residents, and then dug up a layer of topsoil, roads, etc to be incinerated.

Now the spot where the town used to be is the Route 66 State Park.

It doesn't take a terrorist - just some ignorant old guy that never finished high school that has no idea of what he's disposing of (of course, the fact that he mixed it with engine oil to dispose of it suggests he knew more than he ever admitted).

Now that is deeply depressing... kind of the casual idiot version of that pathetic man who poisoined that tree in... Alabama?... I forget. Casual cruelty and idiocy really REALLY piss me off on a deep level, especially when it does so much harm to people, animals, and the environment in general.

Heck, I can't imagine how long it took to burn off that oil... you can only fire so many LP burners and use so many shovels at once.

 

[Astronuc]

Mag 6.1 - http://earthquake.usgs.gov/earthquakes/recenteqsww/Quakes/usc00026q2.php#maps
Date-Time:
Saturday, March 19, 2011 at 09:56:51 UTC
Saturday, March 19, 2011 at 06:56:51 PM at epicenter

Location: 36.810°N, 140.375°E
Depth: 24.9 km (15.5 miles)

Distances:
52 km (32 miles) NE of Utsunomiya, Honshu, Japan
53 km (32 miles) WSW of Iwaki, Honshu, Japan
56 km (34 miles) NNW of Mito, Honshu, Japan
140 km (86 miles) NNE of TOKYO, Japan


The good news is that the frequency of earthquakes is decreasing as is the intensity - despite the occasional mag6+

 

[nismaratwork]

Mag 6.1 - http://earthquake.usgs.gov/earthquakes/recenteqsww/Quakes/usc00026q2.php#maps
Date-Time:
Saturday, March 19, 2011 at 09:56:51 UTC
Saturday, March 19, 2011 at 06:56:51 PM at epicenter

Location: 36.810°N, 140.375°E
Depth: 24.9 km (15.5 miles)

Distances:
52 km (32 miles) NE of Utsunomiya, Honshu, Japan
53 km (32 miles) WSW of Iwaki, Honshu, Japan
56 km (34 miles) NNW of Mito, Honshu, Japan
140 km (86 miles) NNE of TOKYO, Japan


The good news is that the frequency of earthquakes is decreasing as is the intensity - despite the occasional mag6+

That is very good news... I just wish we knew more about seimology as a species so that could be made into some kind of prediction beyond a trend. Ah well.

 

[OmCheeto]

Sitting silent in their classroom, the 30 children whose parents have not come to collect them after tsunami swept away their town

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ren-sit-silent-classroom-parents-vanish.html"
Last updated at 1:43 AM on 18th March 2011


Even amid the carnage and despair of Japan's tsunami victims, the plight of the 30 children at Kama Elementary School is heartbreaking.

They sit quietly in the corner of a third-floor classroom where they have waited each day since the tsunami swept into the town of Ishinomaki for their parents to collect them. So far, no one has come and few at the school now believe they will.

Teachers think that some of the boys and girls, aged between eight and 12, know their fathers and mothers are among the missing and will never again turn up at the gates of the school on the eastern outskirts of the town, but they are saying nothing.

http://www.redcross.org/portal/site...oid=7c521079115ce210VgnVCM10000089f0870aRCRD"

 

[DevilsAvocado]

That is...

But there are some light in the 'darkness'!

Japan: 16-year-old boy and 80-year-old woman rescued after 9 days
http://ca.news.yahoo.com/police-80-yeawr-old-woman-teenager-rescued-9-20110320-021635-546.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7d3LPr13PyA

Amazing...

 

[OmCheeto]

Yes. It is always good to see a twinkle of light in the darkness.

http://english.aljazeera.net/video/asia-pacific/2011/03/201132024520689503.html"
A group of boys turns misfortune into good deeds by spearheading relief efforts for quake and tsunami victims.

A group of boys has taken it upon themselves to scavenge for food and supplies among the debris in Taro, where their village once stood.

They have been able to provide some relief to hundreds of survivors sheltered at a nearby Buddhist temple.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vhDn2DP2gTk

 

[OmCheeto]

Some striking images being collected:

http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2011/03/japan_-_new_fears_as_the_trage.html#photo34

Most are by now familiar, although too abstract to be in the realms of ones own personal reality.

Here's a new one I haven't yet seen though:

A man shops in a convenience store where shelves on food aisles are left empty in Ofunato, Iwate Prefecture, March 15, 2011. (Shizuo Kambayashi/Associated Press)

 

[Borek]

A man shops in a convenience store where shelves on food aisles are left empty in Ofunato, Iwate Prefecture, March 15, 2011. (Shizuo Kambayashi/Associated Press)

Looks like stores in Poland in late seventies/early eighties. But the reasons were completely different.

 

[nismaratwork]

This... is not so great.

(Thanks for this link Greg!)

http://park30.wakwak.com/~weather/geiger_index.html

CPM on the geiger are steadily rising (and that's 230 KM away from Fukishima), radiation contamination of food in Japan is greater than expected, and oh yes... 2 of the reactors are smoking again.

Really, can't the Japanese catch a damned break here?!

http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/03/21/japan.nuclear.food/index.html?hpt=T2

http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/03/21/japan.nuclear.reactors/index.html?iref=NS1

STORY HIGHLIGHTS
NEW: A "very serious" crisis remains at the plant, the IAEA's director-general reports
NEW: WHO says there's no immediate health risk from contaminated food
Smoke emerged from two of the damaged reactors Monday evening, officials say
Tests and training are being done on a concrete pumper that may be used on Unit 4

 

[Al68]

Really, can't the Japanese catch a damned break here?!

On the bright side, the decay heat has been, and will subside further with time.

Has anyone seen any reports of estimated doses to on-site personnel yet? That may or may not be a bright side, since the news media probably would not avoid reporting estimated doses greater than the 25 rem limit, if they had any info.

 

[nismaratwork]

On the bright side, the decay heat has been, and will subside further with time.

Has anyone seen any reports of estimated doses to on-site personnel yet? That may or may not be a bright side, since the news media probably would not avoid reporting estimated doses greater than the 25 rem limit, if they had any info.

I have to agree about the decay heat issue, that is welcome to think about.

I think we can assume that those initial 100 or so workers MUST have received at least an LD/50 dose, if not LD/75 or more. That much gamma radiation, the need to be hands on, the lack of fractionating the dose and the nature of the radiation...


...I'd be shocked if they got less than 4-6 Sv, and would expect that they've already undergone many acute symptoms and are in the "walking ghost" phase. Poor heroic bastards...

edit: http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=japan-nuclear-fallout

 

[Al68]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/ap_on_bi_ge/as_japan_earthquake]The[/PLAIN] troubles at Fukushima have in some ways overshadowed the natural catastrophe...

What? Have they forgotten the 10-20K people killed? What on Earth is wrong with these morons passing as journalists?

 

[Angry Citizen]

If they're talking about news coverage, then they're right. There have been far more reports regarding Fukushima than regarding the earthquake/tsunami.

 

[Evo]

If they're talking about news coverage, then they're right. There have been far more reports regarding Fukushima than regarding the earthquake/tsunami.

That's because it preys on people's fears.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

That's because it preys on people's fears.

It's because the situation is still out of control and could get much worse.

 

[FlexGunship]

It's because the situation is still out of control and could get much worse.

I think it's important to note (again) that there are many experts that disagree about how likely it is for the situation to get worse (and by what degree it could worsen).

 

[Ivan Seeking]

I think it's important to note (again) that there are many experts that disagree about how likely it is for the situation to get worse (and by what degree it could worsen).

All the more reason to be wary: The "experts" can't even agree.

Reminds of the time Three Mile Island was in crisis and the two most knowledgeable people in the country wrt that system were screaming at each other and couldn't agree on how to proceed.

What I DO know is that the USS George Washington just moved to a safe distance. What a bunch of fearmongers.

 

[FlexGunship]

Reminds of the time Three Mile Island was in crisis and the two most knowledgeable people in the country wrt that system were screaming at each other and couldn't agree on how to proceed.

Well, I don't think that's all that odd, really. And I don't think it's a cause for concern. Two military strategists might disagree about how to fight the same battle. Two programming experts might disagree about how to write a particular program. Two doctors might disagree about how to treat a particular disease.

If there was only one idea as to how to move through a crisis, I think I would be more worried.