Can Long-Term Marriage Retain Its Spark?

[Astronuc]

I feel as though society makes it that way.

Well that is the predominant culture in the west though. There is an expectation on the part of one's partner that he or she is THE one special person. If there is another person, then there is bound to be jealousy.

Even in societies with polygynous/polygamous marriages, there is often a primary spouse and there are jealousies. I couldn't see myself divided among two or mores spouses.

But one thing for sure is that if you spend 3 years with someone, break up, then 3 years with another, then break up, and so on and so on is definitely not an easy way to go. Everyone knows break ups aren't the best. So, if you want a real relationship, aim for one with no break ups.

I didn't get married with the expectation of bailing out if it got rough - and there were times when it did get rough. I stuck it out and so did my wife. I would have liked to have avoided that - but we are closer because of it.

Certainly there are those who practice serial monogamy - which is really a form of polygamy according to some sociologists/anthropologists. I've seen male and female friends go from relationship to relationship of tens or scores of relationships - and just never finding a satsifactory long term relationship. Certainly there is a problem there.

 

[JasonRox]

I didn't get married with the expectation of bailing out if it got rough - and there were times when it did get rough. I stuck it out and so did my wife. I would have liked to have avoided that - but we are closer because of it.

I didn't mean that towards you, but more towards the idea of someone not seeing themselves with only one person forever. For example, wolram talks about just simply getting together with another person one after the other.

Marriage on the other hand is rough, but that person is there with you. It's a different kind of rough spot. I guess you can call it a rough love spot or something.

 

[Astronuc]

I didn't mean that towards you, but more towards the idea of someone not seeing themselves with only one person forever. For example, wolram talks about just simply getting together with another person one after the other.

I didn't take your comment personally, but I was reflecting on my personal situation.

I received my views of marriage from my parents and grandparents. I have first hand experience of what constitutes a good marriage. In contrast, I had various friends who came from families in which the parents had divorced, and some of those cases the parental relationship had involved domestic violence.

All I can say is that children are very sensitive to the relationship of their parents. Most friends from families in which the parents had a bad relationship (including divorce) have themselves had problems with relationships.


The other point concerning societies in which polygamy is practiced, one usually finds that women (wives) are subservient to men. I just cannot accept that.

My wife is my partner.

 

[JasonRox]

The other point concerning societies in which polygamy is practiced, one usually finds that women (wives) are subservient to men. I just cannot accept that.

My wife is my partner.

Yeah, that's what I noticed too and that's something I don't like. I even noticed that in "open" relationships around here.

I like the idea that women are becoming more independent. I feel as though I get to know who they are in the real authentic way.

 

[rewebster]

"THE ORIGINAL VERSION: If you love something, Set it free... If it comes back, it's yours, If it doesn't, it never was yours..."


THE REALITY VERSION: If you love something, Set it free... If it comes back, it's yours, If it doesn't, sell their stuff at the next garage sale...

 

[Astronuc]

In real life, if you love somebody and let them go, they will be hurt and confused and not understand why you let them go. They're most likely to assume you don't care and never return.

I've been pondering this matter further, and one must realize that it's not so simple - and neither are human interactions because humans are inherently complex.

I suppose the person leaving leaves because he or she doesn't feel wanted (or feels taken for granted), and then feels worse because the other partner doesn't make an effort to come after him or her.

Remedy - find ways to tell the other person how grateful one is that the other is a part of one's life (or expression appreciation for the other). The remedy is simply straightforward, open and honest communication. Leave nothing to chance - and don't be ambiguous.


Then there is the case where one partner feels hurt and leaves, with the hope that the other will come, but then the other doesn't.

I can see the point Evo makes with these two scenarios.

Occasional passion and prolonged romance are part of a good marriage. And the romance is about little things that indicate care and thoughtfulness concerning the other.

 

[Artaxerxes]

If you can't get what you want, settle for what you can get

The best thing about being married is knowing that there's someone who likes being with you more than they like being with anyone else.

Well, you are a little naive if you think your spouse married you because she liked you more than anyone else - possibly she married you because she, at the time, liked you more than anyone else of those she could get...

 

[Artaxerxes]

Actually, the most useful function of a legal marriage rather than cohabitation is to protect you when you split up. The legal divorce proceedings are in place to help you figure out how to divide up your shared assets and disentangle your liabilities. It would be very difficult to have any sort of long-term cohabitation arrangement that kept both of your assets entirely separate and wouldn't lead to a real mess if you decided it was time to head your separate ways. Legal marriage has nothing to do with commitment and love, and everything to do with protecting property and income and determining how to fairly divide it should you be unable to stay together any longer. It provides other legal protections as well (i.e., medical decision-making in the event one or the other partner is incapacitated to make decisions for themselves).

I agree with you that there will be difficulties when you split up from a cohabitation (as from any partnership, e.g. business, that's life), but it's when you split from "legal marriage" that things get really messed up and ugly.

Underneath I have copied some lines from news articles about the divorce between Paul McCartney and Heather Mills. All of the fortune comes from the talent and work of Paul McCartney - why should "this woman, Mrs Mills", have $102 million in her pockets when they split after four years? Marriage should have no legal implications, only social. I think engagement has no legal consequences and it should be the same for marriage.

"Heather Mills has issued an ultimatum to Sir Paul McCartney - agree to a £50 million ($102 million) divorce settlement by tomorrow (19.10.07) or fight her in court."
"Heather has been saying it is not in Paul's best interest to go to court by reminding him of the cards she is holding. A lot could come out in court and she could publicly destroy his reputation."
"The Beatles legend - who split from Heather in May 2006 following a four-year marriage - was advised to initially offer the tiny slice (£3 million, $6 million - tiny?) of his £825 million fortune, but Heather's legal team "laughed off" the sum and demanded £25 million."

 

[Urvabara]

Avoid grandma at all costs, Urvabara, it makes a bad first impression.

Grandma? What do you mean?

 

[J77]

My advice to you is get married: if you find a good wife you'll be happy; if not, you'll become a philosopher.

 

[rewebster]

In real life, if you love somebody and let them go, they will be hurt and confused and not understand why you let them go. They're most likely to assume you don't care and never return. I've always thought this was the worst advice.

Most of the women that I've "let go" come back around trying to start up the relationship again----maybe men have better common sense

emphasis on 'trying'

 

[Evo]

I've learned to never give a relationship a second chance, tried it twice and the relationship quickly ended again for the same reasons it ended the first time. I find it best to move on to someone I haven't damaged yet.

 

[rewebster]

I've learned to never give a relationship a second chance, tried it twice and the relationship quickly ended again for the same reasons it ended the first time. I find it best to move on to someone I haven't damaged yet.

so that's why there's so few 'good' men out there for all those other women

 

[Evo]

I think I've found and alienated all the good men in my age range, at least on two continents.

 

[rewebster]

before Evo:

after Evo:

http://www.happinessonline.org/MoralCode/images/nicknolte4.jpg

 

[zoobyshoe]

Can we get to stupid love quotes that irk me?

by Kahlil Gibran.

In real life, if you love somebody and let them go, they will be hurt and confused and not understand why you let them go. They're most likely to assume you don't care and never return. I've always thought this was the worst advice.

I've always assumed this referred to a situation where the other person wanted to leave. In other words, if you really love them you respect the fact they're not getting what they want from the relationship and you let go to allow them to pursue what they want. This goes from allowing them some "alone" time without making a fuss, all the way to an actual breakup.

Another line I hate - "love means never having to say you're sorry".

This, too, strikes me as making more sense than people think: if two people really love each other they are so sensitive to each others needs and boundaries that they don't do anything to each other that will require an apology.

 

[Evo]

before Evo:

after Evo:

http://www.happinessonline.org/MoralCode/images/nicknolte4.jpg

That about sums it up.

I've always assumed this referred to a situation where the other person wanted to leave. In other words, if you really love them you respect the fact they're not getting what they want from the relationship and you let go to allow them to pursue what they want. This goes from allowing them some "alone" time without making a fuss, all the way to an actual breakup.


This, too, strikes me as making more sense than people think: if two people really love each other they are so sensitive to each others needs and boundaries that they don't do anything to each other that will require an apology.

Oh, now, don't try to sugarcoat it.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Oh, now, don't try to sugarcoat it.

My God. I feel so...damaged.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Well, you are a little naive if you think your spouse married you because she liked you more than anyone else - possibly she married you because she, at the time, liked you more than anyone else of those she could get...

Tsu dumped a brain surgeon for me.

What a dummy!

 

[animalcroc]

monogamous marriage is not a universal institution although it has been increasing popular over the last few centuries. Different people around the world have had their own ways of doing things. For instance, when Columbus went to the Caribbean he observed open relationships and was repulsed. Apparently, marriage is relative like other social institutions.
Even Erwin Schroedinger had two mates.

 

[Integral]

If you are married to the wrong person, every day can be hell. Unfortunately, you don't find out how wrong they are until after you've been married for awhile. This is why I can't imagine people getting married without having first lived together for at least a year or two.

I think statistics will show that living together before marriage does not improve the chances of a sucessful marriage.

http://www.clasp.org/publications/cohabation_snapshot.pdf

 

[Evo]

I think statistics will show that living together before marriage does not improve the chances of a sucessful marriage.

http://www.clasp.org/publications/cohabation_snapshot.pdf

I agree that nothing is a guarantee for a successful marriage. Living together before marriage would hopefully prevent a bad marrriage from happening in the first place though.

It sounds like most of the people that have posted here lived together before marrying, or are currently living together if they are in a long term relationship.

Other than census statistics, I'd be interested to see what poll she pulled the rest of her information from. For example stuff like this

· For a small but significant minority, cohabitation is a long term relationship which does
not lead to marriage. For one tenth of cohabiters, cohabitation is a long-term relationship
that does not end in marriage.

· A significant number of cohabitations end before marriage. About 40 percent of
cohabiting relationships end before marriage.

· Two years marks a crucial point in the cohabiting relationship. For about half of
cohabitaters, the relationship lasts approximately 2 years and then ends, either through
marriage or dissolution.

I would think that the number of cohabiting relationships that end without marriage would be higher than 40%. It seems quite normal in the US right now for young people to move in together while they are dating just to save money. Marriage isn't even necessarily on their radar in most cases.

 

[Moonbear]

I think the limitation to cohabitation as a "trial run" for marriage is that some of the big issues that hinder marriages can still be avoided while cohabitating. For example, if you're smart, you're not going to intermingle finances if you're not sure you're going to get married, so there's no dealing with one person being a big spender and the other not and using each other's money or having to make financial decisions together yet. Another is that you're still not dealing with having children and how to raise them. That's often a big issue that doesn't come up until seriously discussing making that baby (or, too often, after the baby is on the way).

Of course, what it can help with are the, "Is seeing this person first thing in the morning and last thing at night, sometimes all day, every day, all year long, for years on end, going to drive me absolutely bonkers?" problem.

 

[rewebster]

I think the limitation to cohabitation as a "trial run" for marriage is that some of the big issues that hinder marriages can still be avoided while cohabitating. For example, if you're smart, you're not going to intermingle finances if you're not sure you're going to get married, so there's no dealing with one person being a big spender and the other not and using each other's money or having to make financial decisions together yet. Another is that you're still not dealing with having children and how to raise them. That's often a big issue that doesn't come up until seriously discussing making that baby (or, too often, after the baby is on the way).

Of course, what it can help with are the, "Is seeing this person first thing in the morning and last thing at night, sometimes all day, every day, all year long, for years on end, going to drive me absolutely bonkers?" problem.

it sounds like you have a real good handle (attitude) on things

 

[Moonbear]

it sounds like you have a real good handle (attitude) on things

That's why I'm not married.

 

[rewebster]

That's why I'm not married.

have you been?------

(you sound like you may have been there before)

-----------------------------------------------------
A lot of women don't get out and 'play' as much as they used to--I hear that too often, "I don't know where to go!"--"I don't have girl friends to go out with!"--- "I don't want to go out alone!"----"There's no good men left out there that haven't been damaged!"
----------
just got off of the phone with a woman who said three out of the four from above---she's been divorced about eight years now. She doesn't go out much, but she said another one, " I can't find a good man" three times. I've told her a dozen times to start going to new places to try new things, and attend some club meetings for things she likes.


I'm not married--and it seems a lot of women I meet can't stop talking about their baggage (like the one I just got off the phone with). Seems like most women worry about talking about their baggage too much but still do anyway--it's like they can't help it, and they want us (men) to know about all of it. Women just seem to worry about it more than men.

__________________________________________

I was thinking last night about this woman that calls me every once in a while for 'help' with her problems----if she's been talking to me about her past relationship even a fraction as much as to the guys she's trying to date --that may be the problem why she may be having 'trouble finding' a guy----I think she relates what she's done in her life through her 'ex-' as he is still 'part' of her present existence (new guys don't really want to have to even try to measure up)---"New Strategy" to help her!

 

[Reshma]

Can we get to stupid love quotes that irk me?

Another line I hate - "love means never having to say you're sorry".

That's really stupid. I will make sure they are sorry even if I love them. It is easier to forgive someone once you are even with him. Okay, I am kidding.

 

[Evo]

That's really stupid. I will make sure they are sorry even if I love them. It is easier to forgive someone once you are even with him. Okay, I am kidding.

I think it should say "loves means knowing when to say you're sorry". Now *that* would make more sense.

 

[Moonbear]

have you been?------

Nope.

(you sound like you may have been there before)

Got real close once, but Evo's dreaded cliche "If you love them, set them free" seemed to apply...we could either be married or follow our desired career paths, but not both, and neither of us would ask the other to sacrifice their career (we needed to be in different states).

-----------------------------------------------------
A lot of women don't get out and 'play' as much as they used to--I hear that too often, "I don't know where to go!"--"I don't have girl friends to go out with!"--- "I don't want to go out alone!"----"There's no good men left out there that haven't been damaged!"
----------

Yep, it's hard finding the undamaged ones, especially. I think Evo has gotten to them first. Well, the reality is, many are probably still single because they started out damaged, not because someone damaged them along the way. And once you get to that age where all your friends are married with kids, it is hard to find people to go out with, even just for fun.

just got off of the phone with a woman who said three out of the four from above---she's been divorced about eight years now. She doesn't go out much, but she said another one, " I can't find a good man" three times. I've told her a dozen times to start going to new places to try new things, and attend some club meetings for things she likes.

Everyone gives that advice. It doesn't help. For starters, once you're out of college, there aren't clubs around for every interest. I was looking around the area here to see if there was some sort of a ballroom dancing club or just a place that holds dances, figuring if I don't have someone to go out dancing with, a dancing club would be a good way to meet someone to do that with. There aren't any. The nearest place that even holds dances is about 2 h away! A lot of my other interests aren't the sort of things you'd join a club to do.

I'm not married--and it seems a lot of women I meet can't stop talking about their baggage (like the one I just got off the phone with). Seems like most women worry about talking about their baggage too much but still do anyway--it's like they can't help it, and they want us (men) to know about all of it. Women just seem to worry about it more than men.

Too many do. I figure if someone can't avoid talking about an ex on a date, they're not ready to be dating yet because they still feel too strongly about the ex. In a way, it's not much different than selling a car. Nobody wants to hear about the huge crash you were in with the car that you follow up by saying, "But it's all fixed now, almost like new again." You're going to stare at them suspiciously, wondering whether it's really fixed, or if they've just slapped a new coat of paint on it, and walk away. The problem is, guys do the same thing, "You wouldn't believe the psycho I dated," type stuff. One psycho story might be entertaining, but if they harp on about it, or if it starts to sound like they think every woman they ever dated was psycho, I start to wonder what's wrong with them that they either attract psychos, or turn them into psychos.

I was thinking last night about this woman that calls me every once in a while for 'help' with her problems----if she's been talking to me about her past relationship even a fraction as much as to the guys she's trying to date --that may be the problem why she may be having 'trouble finding' a guy----I think she relates what she's done in her life through her 'ex-' as he is still 'part' of her present existence (new guys don't really want to have to even try to measure up)---"New Strategy" to help her!

When someone is still that bitter about a breakup, it's hard for them to stop thinking every new person they meet will be just like the previous ones. Sometimes they're right, because for some reason, they keep being attracted to people with similar personality traits, even though they know that's not compatible with them. They need to start trying something different...but they also have to get over that bitterness first, or they'll never give the right person a chance.

 

[Astronuc]

Seems like most women worry about talking about their baggage too much but still do anyway--it's like they can't help it, and they want us (men) to know about all of it. Women just seem to worry about it more than men.

I think some men do it too. Basically it means they haven't processed and reconciled the failed relationship. In that case, they need to consult a therapist/counselor and move on. It's a grieving process - and some people don't know how to deal with it and move on.

 

[mathwonk]

to be married, you must give some preference to someone elses wishes. and that is pretty much sufficient, outside the basic attraction.

 

[rewebster]

OH--boy...talk about "baggage":

 

[rewebster]

Got real close once, but Evo's dreaded cliche "If you love them, set them free" seemed to apply...we could either be married or follow our desired career paths, but not both, and neither of us would ask the other to sacrifice their career (we needed to be in different states).

yep, been there (she got some kind of post-residency fellowship at Vanderbilt)

Yep, it's hard finding the undamaged ones, especially. I think Evo has gotten to them first. Well, the reality is, many are probably still single because they started out damaged, not because someone damaged them along the way. And once you get to that age where all your friends are married with kids, it is hard to find people to go out with, even just for fun.

one way that I looked at it to make it an 'level playing field' is that we're all damaged with baggage (just how much is the question )

Everyone gives that advice. It doesn't help. For starters, once you're out of college, there aren't clubs around for every interest. I was looking around the area here to see if there was some sort of a ballroom dancing club or just a place that holds dances, figuring if I don't have someone to go out dancing with, a dancing club would be a good way to meet someone to do that with. There aren't any. The nearest place that even holds dances is about 2 h away! A lot of my other interests aren't the sort of things you'd join a club to do.

start one (locally)!

Too many do. I figure if someone can't avoid talking about an ex on a date, they're not ready to be dating yet because they still feel too strongly about the ex. In a way, it's not much different than selling a car. Nobody wants to hear about the huge crash you were in with the car that you follow up by saying, "But it's all fixed now, almost like new again." You're going to stare at them suspiciously, wondering whether it's really fixed, or if they've just slapped a new coat of paint on it, and walk away. The problem is, guys do the same thing, "You wouldn't believe the psycho I dated," type stuff. One psycho story might be entertaining, but if they harp on about it, or if it starts to sound like they think every woman they ever dated was psycho, I start to wonder what's wrong with them that they either attract psychos, or turn them into psychos.

When someone is still that bitter about a breakup, it's hard for them to stop thinking every new person they meet will be just like the previous ones. Sometimes they're right, because for some reason, they keep being attracted to people with similar personality traits, even though they know that's not compatible with them. They need to start trying something different...but they also have to get over that bitterness first, or they'll never give the right person a chance.

I don't mind listening to 'psycho' stories (especially if I know that its not going to go beyond the 'friendship' level)---its some of the best entertainment around!

 

[Astronuc]

This is a great story. Marriage does work - for some folks.

Awwww! This is so sweet! I love stories like this!

Three-Day Courtship, Lasting Marriage
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=15633460

A blind date and a short courtship led to a marriage that has lasted more than half a century.

Morning Edition, October 26, 2007 · They've been married for 57 years, but when Gayle Burton first met Frank Newby, she would not have predicted such a long-lasting relationship. It all started on a triple blind date that Gayle dreaded.

Gayle had spent the day at an Indianapolis beach with friends, and she wasn't looking forward to going out.

"My hair was a mess, and I really didn't want to go," she says.

Gayle saw the three men that were waiting for her and her friends.

"Look at the hick with no tie," she told one of her friends. "I bet I'll get stuck with him."

As a matter of fact, Frank was the guy with no tie and Gayle did get stuck with him.

The other dates wanted to grab a burger and a Coke, but Frank didn't have money for it.

"And he just frankly told me, 'I can't afford it,'" Gayle recalls. "Somehow or other that seemed honest to me, and I said, 'Let's just sit in the car and talk.'"

They talked about love and marriage. At the end, they parted ways. Gayle called Frank later, and they made plans for a date. But Gayle stood him up. She had some friends visiting from out of town.

"I waited longer for her that day than I've ever waited for anybody in my life," Frank says. "I don't think that I was really mad — I was disgusted — and I just wrote this girl off."

One night, Gayle called him at work.

"In her little girl voice, she started explaining to me. And the sucker that I was, I accepted the apology," Frank says.

A couple of days later, Frank introduced Gayle to his parents. It was a Friday. On Saturday, Frank told his father to find a minister. On Sunday, they were married.

Frank had $20 to spend on their three-day honeymoon. They found a motel for $3 a night, and they feasted on hamburgers and beer.

"I've never once regretted a three-day courtship," Gayle says.

 

[Moonbear]

Aww...that is sweet. Definitely defied all the odds, but still pretty cool. A real life Dharma and Greg.