How to avoid killing birds with wind turbines

[Danger]

Actually, Carl, that's Pincher Creek, half-way between and a bit south of Crows Nest Pass and Fort MacLeod. I'm sorry to see that it hasn't worked out. One of my friends was pretty high up in the company that developed it, and I made the signs for them when I was working in the print shop.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

In case anyone missed it, this does seem to be a key point from the article linked

...Since the mid-1980's, a number of research organizations, universities, and consultants have conducted studies on avian mortality due to wind turbines. In the U.S., these studies were prompted because of the relatively high number of raptors that were found dead at the Altamont Pass Wind Farms near San Francisco.

After dozens of studies spanning nearly two decades, we now know that the Altamont Pass situation is unusual in the U.S. The high raptor mortality there was the result of a convergence of factors, some of which were due to the bad siting in the local ecosystem while others were due to the wind turbine and tower technology used at the time...

http://www.awea.org/faq/sagrillo/swbirds.html

So it seems that good planning esp wrt location may solve most problems. But if it is found that a particular wind farm has a problem with bird kills, apparently the number of kills locally can be significant, so alternative solutions could still be needed. I'm not sure what "technology used at the time" made things worse, but it might help to know what it was and how it contributed to the problem.

 

[Boffin]

So it seems that good planning esp wrt location may solve most problems. But if it is found that a particular wind farm has a problem with bird kills, apparently the number of kills locally can be significant, so alternative solutions could still be needed.

I guess we should get more or less back on the original point, being how to solve the bird issue with wind farms. What are the rules in the USA, Canada, and other parts of the world regarding location of wind farms?

Does one have to go through an environmental study first? And if the wind farm would result in a major disruption of the bird population, would such an application be rejected typically? Would such a wind farm have to be dismantled once built?

It seems no one did such a study in the Almont Pass wind farm? Of course the outcome of any study is related to what the law makers regard as negative or what is legal.

 

[quantumcarl]

Actually, Carl, that's Pincher Creek, half-way between and a bit south of Crows Nest Pass and Fort MacLeod. I'm sorry to see that it hasn't worked out. One of my friends was pretty high up in the company that developed it, and I made the signs for them when I was working in the print shop.

Yeah, its too bad. The CDN PM diverted money from the sale of govt owned stocks (2 billion$) in PetroCan (oil) to investments in wind gererated electricity.

Save the birds and dress up the wind turbines like giant scarecrows. Otherwise they're potentially worse than DDT.

Or, use the many alternatives.

 

[scottschopp]

to everyone who has posted a message about altamont wind farm

hi, my name is scott schopp, I work for a company that has come up with a solution for the wildlife that has died at altamont pass wind farm and every other wind farm in the world. We have come up with a new design for wind turbines that causes no damage to the areas animal, windenergygroupinc.com is the web address , and i want to start to place new turbines in altamont pass wind farm asap. There is no reason that one bird should die in an attempt, to help the worlds energy problem. We are a new company and our turbine is the same size and is more effecient that current units. It would fit perfectly in the area, the problem is i can't get the proper contact info to whoever is in charge of the altamont wind farm. need help, please email me. thanks scott schopp

 

[triden]

Hey Scott, those turbines on that website you posted are quite neat. I could see the low RPM nature of the turbine being a lot safer for nearby birds.

 

[scottschopp]

Actually, Carl, that's Pincher Creek, half-way between and a bit south of Crows Nest Pass and Fort MacLeod. I'm sorry to see that it hasn't worked out. One of my friends was pretty high up in the company that developed it, and I made the signs for them when I was working in the print shop.

go to scott schopp , on page six birds and wind turbines discession

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Scottschopp, it sure doesn't look like you have much effective turbine area.

Late edit: Guestimating from your website, it appears that for about the same price [similar requirements for the structure], a standard turbine would have a sweeping radius at least three times greater than your system, which translates to about ten times the swept area and ten times the power for the same cost.

 

[scottschopp]

Scottschopp, it sure doesn't look like you have much effective turbine area.

Late edit: Guestimating from your website, it appears that for about the same price [similar requirements for the structure], a standard turbine would have a sweeping radius at least three times greater than your system, which translates to about ten times the swept area and ten times the power for the same cost.

it does not have anything to do with sweep area, it has to do with killawatts created this turbine generates 200-250 kw, for its size, that is what it is supposed to do. Sweep area is stone age thinking, sorry.

 

[russ_watters]

it does not have anything to do with sweep area, it has to do with killawatts created this turbine generates 200-250 kw, for its size, that is what it is supposed to do. Sweep area is stone age thinking, sorry.

No, sweeping area is conservation of energy. In order to capture energy from wind, you have to capture wind. So a turbine with 10x the area (and the same efficiency) will produce 10x the power.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

No, sweeping area is conservation of energy. In order to capture energy from wind, you have to capture wind. So a turbine with 10x the area (and the same efficiency) will produce 10x the power.

I would also expect significantly higher efficiency from a standard turbine.

 

[scottschopp]

one of the reasons that the blade has to turn so slow is that their is a gearbox that can not withstand a fast moving propeller, these older turbines have to shut down when the wid reaches a certain (high) speed so they are limited to margins of speed. The horrizontal direct drive shaft does not need a gearbox and can add additional generaters to the units while in use, so the faster the wind, the more energy. the lenth of the blade is not an issue because by the time of one rotation of standard turbine the horizontal unit will have already turned several times whether it is 3x, 7x, it depends on the wind speed. you also have to take into account down time when you are talking about effeciency, of the turbine , it is not only how long the blade is but i understand your perspective, this is a new technology, trust me they are better and more effecient.

 

[scottschopp]

keep in mind that turbines are graded on killawats produced not on how long the blades are, you would be blown away on how many of the older turbines, are broken, and don't turn effeciently any more.

 

[henxan]

scottschopp "killawatts" :D..

Wind power for generating electricity is just a big joke. Enormous environmental impact. You have to build roads, construct these monsters, maintainance. And its expencive as hell. Not to mention eye-pollutant.

So if you want to stop killing birds, why not stop building wind power plants? :D

 

[Ivan Seeking]

one of the reasons that the blade has to turn so slow is that their is a gearbox that can not withstand a fast moving propeller, these older turbines have to shut down when the wid reaches a certain (high) speed so they are limited to margins of speed. The horrizontal direct drive shaft does not need a gearbox and can add additional generaters to the units while in use, so the faster the wind, the more energy. the lenth of the blade is not an issue because by the time of one rotation of standard turbine the horizontal unit will have already turned several times whether it is 3x, 7x, it depends on the wind speed. you also have to take into account down time when you are talking about effeciency, of the turbine , it is not only how long the blade is but i understand your perspective, this is a new technology, trust me they are better and more effecient.

There may be advantages to the design, but you can't get around conservation of energy. Less area means less power. This is not a point that is debatable.

Trust me. This is elementary. And before you argue with engineers and scientists, you might learn how to spell kilowatt.

Variable pitch blades can now compensate for high wind velocities.

 

[henxan]

there was pun intended, was it not? Killawatts - watts pr. killed bird lol..

 

[scottschopp]

scottschopp "killawatts" :D..

Wind power for generating electricity is just a big joke. Enormous environmental impact. You have to build roads, construct these monsters, maintainance. And its expencive as hell. Not to mention eye-pollutant.

So if you want to stop killing birds, why not stop building wind power plants? :D

hey jack, denmark in 2007 has 20% of their electricity generated from wind power, how is that a joke. in the next two years hopes to have it up to 50%. I live in la and if you saw the smog when you fly into burbank on a plan like i have many times, you would not be saying that it is a joke.

 

[henxan]

Wouldn't the windturbines slow down the air and worsen the smog problem? No wind to blow it away ;)

 

[scottschopp]

There may be advantages to the design, but you can't get around conservation of energy. Less area means less power. This is not a point that is debatable.

Trust me. This is elementary. And before you argue with engineers and scientists, you might learn how to spell kilowatt.

Variable pitch blades can now compensate for high wind velocities.

first of all it is the point I am trying to make not my spelling, the variable pitch blade is a great advantage and when it happens in high winds it is called the yah of the blade. I am not a scientist or an enginier, you are deviating from the harm of the wild life that is happening at this and other wind farms.

 

[scottschopp]

Wouldn't the windturbines slow down the air and worsen the smog problem? No wind to blow it away ;)

la doesn't get wind, that pollutant in the air is from having to rely on other sources of energy. Everybody is losing focus on my original topic how to help the birds, because wind energy is here to stay

 

[henxan]

Well. I'm not sure how to explain this. Wind power demands wind, so I think you should forget about wind power in LA.. Sorry..

 

[scottschopp]

i am tring to discuess the altamont pass area, not la.

 

[russ_watters]

I would also expect significantly higher efficiency from a standard turbine.

I was going to give him the benefit of the doubt on that, but yes - those turbines just don't look very efficient to me.

Scottschopp, is there an operational wind farm anywhere that uses these turbines?

 

[rcgldr]

What would be the issue with a very large sphere made of chicken wire and supports surrounding the main propellor, other than cost? It wouldn't significantly affect the wind flow, and would prevent birds from getting to the propellors.

 

[henxan]

jeff reid:
Lol. pretty nice idea :D.. To prevent birds to get into the propellers one would need very small meshes. Probably 10cm in diameter. And you would need rigid wires, framing. And it would be ugly. Most certainly slow down the wind.

Is this really a big problem? Wouldnt birds who survive give more offspring likely to survive? survival of the fittest, or smartest in this case :)

 

[P.Ramesh]

hi, my name is scott schopp, I work for a company that has come up with a solution for the wildlife that has died at altamont pass wind farm and every other wind farm in the world. We have come up with a new design for wind turbines that causes no damage to the areas animal, windenergygroupinc.com is the web address , and i want to start to place new turbines in altamont pass wind farm asap. There is no reason that one bird should die in an attempt, to help the worlds energy problem. We are a new company and our turbine is the same size and is more effecient that current units. It would fit perfectly in the area, the problem is i can't get the proper contact info to whoever is in charge of the altamont wind farm. need help, please email me. thanks scott schopp

Can you Pl tell me the site name or any Picture of that model?

 

[Saladsamurai]

jeff reid:

Is this really a big problem? Wouldnt birds who survive give more offspring likely to survive? survival of the fittest, or smartest in this case :)

Right, because evolutionary effects take place over the course of days.

 

[henxan]

saladsamurai:

The rate at which mutations take place are connected to the time until fertility; have you ever considered that birds may live shorter than humans?

 

[FredGarvin]

I agree that the chicken wire idea is a no-go. Not only would it structurally not even support its own weight, it would distort the inlet flow.

I would venture a guess that visual means would be a possibility. Aside from taping old pie pans to the blades, what about reflectors and lights of some kind?

 

[Loren Booda]

What about an array of windsocks with fabric capillaries that generate power from their fluid pressure - or mechanical orientation - changing with the wind, but allow winged creatures to glance or pass through relatively unharmed?

 

[Saladsamurai]

jeff reid:
Is this really a big problem? Wouldnt birds who survive give more offspring likely to survive? survival of the fittest, or smartest in this case :)

saladsamurai:

The rate at which mutations take place are connected to the time until fertility; have you ever considered that birds may live shorter than humans?

My point was...well...that your point kind of sucked. That's all. So to answer your question, no.

 

[binzing]

If it has already been stated, forgive me. Anyways, there's a company with a new type of wind turbine that uses a horizontal double helix type blade that is much safer for animals, and works much better. For traditional types of turbines, you could use falconry to scare them off. It's been used at airports such as JFK with great results and only needs to be done like once a week from what I remember seeing about it, plus there'd be plenty of falconers that would love to have that opportunity to fly there birds (which is a near daily event).

 

[rcgldr]

You could use falconry to scare them off.

Except for the fact that predator birds are just as likely to get whacked by those huge propellors, and a falconer isn't going release his falcon in the middle of a wind farm. Also it's more likely that the type of birds that get struck by those windmills are not the type of birds that falcons go after (they're not pigeons), and that wild falcons are also victims to wind farms. In the case of the wind farms between San Francisco and Los Angeles, the birds involved in prop strikes are probably condors (rare), hawks, pergrine falcons, ravens, seagulls, and turkey vultures.

I fly radio control gliders and see a lot of birds at a local slope site. The predator birds generally only go after rodents and smaller birds, or poor flying birds like over-fed pigeons. The local ravens outfly and outclimb the predator birds, climbing above them and the diving down on them, driving most of them away. Seagulls, once inland, have usually thermalled upwards well out of the range of predators to save energy. There is a lot of thermal activity at this local slope site, and the seagulls will thermal out of site or into clouds, since unlike soaring predators, they don't need to be able to see prey on the ground or other birds in the air.

In the case of the California windmills, the so called chicken wire solution wouldn't require a very fine mesh, since most of the affected birds are fairly large.

 

[henxan]

Ooops.. Didnt see you had answered this Jeff reid:
The problem isn't birds being killed, the problem is that Birds of Prey are being killed.. In Norway one wind power plant killed something like 12 white-tailed eagles within the first months after startup. It is usually the big birds, higher in the ecosystem that suffer. Then again, the rate dropped quite much, and now you have an even amount killed throughout the year.

Saladsamurai:
My sucky answers may have something to do with your sucky comments also. I do admit its a bit difficult to distinguish between "funny comments/answers" as reply to a serious comment or a completely ridiculous commen.

My final point is: is this really a problem? A couple of birds being killed?

And, to you saladsamurai: do you have certain data of the adaption time until birds learns that they should not venture into a area occupied by wind power plant?

 

[rcgldr]

adaption time to wind farms

When all the birds are dead, then it's not an issue anymore.