Japan Earthquake: Nuclear Plants at Fukushima Daiichi

[Astronuc]

Did you read the second part of my post? The second picture I posted proves it didn't have to come off "spinning like a frisbee". The entire roof structure is moved exactly one section to the south. Which puts that hole directly over the reactor core.

That is not correct. The north set roof beams look to have fallen downward. The second and third rafters are still adjacent to the columns and the fourth rafter is still attached to the column on the east (ocean) side of the building, but on the west (land) side the columns fell toward the south and there is a slight southward displacement (~half of a panel) of those rafters (rafters 3, 4 and 5 starting from north). The southern half (three section) looks like it fell straight down. The plume of steam is coming from the spent fuel pool which is on the south side of the containment building.

Overhead of Unit 3 - west top and south to left.

 

[unlurk]

Did you read the second part of my post? The second picture I posted proves it didn't have to come off "spinning like a frisbee". The entire roof structure is moved exactly one section to the south. Which puts that hole directly over the reactor core.

I'm glad to see you thinking independently and I wish I could agree with you but I can't.

I prefer this view of #3 to discuss the roof structure.

https://www.physicsforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=35381&d=1305065346

To make a long story short, the roof beam assembly which remains did not move one section south as you contend.

do you believe something went vertical through that hole?

If you'll check back a few pages, you'll see that I have a strong belief that some of the contents of the fuel pond went critical. I suggest that you look into that.

In any event, the drywell for #3 maintained pressure until late March.

EDIT:
I'll add another picture of #3 from ground level which shows much of your missing roof section from the north side.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/xtcbz/5705962432/in/set-72157626687253144/
If you moved the roof assembly one frame north you would wind up with some extra parts.

 

[Jorge Stolfi]

The entire roof structure is moved exactly one section to the south.

That is the part that people find hard to believe, since the roof beam that was above the reactor is still firmly attached to its pillar on the east side, which is still standing. Check any of the photos that look at #3 straight down or from the west side.

 

[razzz]

Did you read the second part of my post? The second picture I posted proves it didn't have to come off "spinning like a frisbee". The entire roof structure is moved exactly one section to the south. Which puts that hole directly over the reactor core.

And I don't necessarily believe the thermal imagery, since it showed the whole shebang as at very low temps.

So first off, do you believe something went vertical through that hole?

Layman here. These reactors are so poorly designed and begging for improvements that it is not possible for them to disintegrate, they just fail and remain partially intact to haunt human civilization for generations to come.

The members of conferences convened to write papers on disaster preparedness on how and why nuke plants might fail must have spent a lot of time at the bar after the loss of coolant discussions.

These sucker get really really hot to a point even water won't help them and probably would damage them further when applied and there are so many ways for gases and solids to escape, it's not even funny. So the caps don't blow off, everything kinda slumps beneath the caps and starts failing with cracks forming or fittings and connection failures or the melted fuel begins traveling through control rod seals.

I'll give you the MOX fuel at 6% or so in Unit 3 core which just means it burns hotter. Maybe the caps leaked at their seals momentarily, maybe the RPV rattled around once or twice but a crack formed more than likely vented on the side of the wetwell shell and since they use prime casting metals could have sealed itself backup at lower pressures or at least slowed its release with cooling.

This is doesn't take away from the facts that there is still major releasing of contaminates occurring past, present and future to be concern with at various rates.

 

[MiceAndMen]

Did you read the second part of my post? The second picture I posted proves it didn't have to come off "spinning like a frisbee". The entire roof structure is moved exactly one section to the south. Which puts that hole directly over the reactor core.

I thought that too for a while, but examination of photographs taken from different angles shows that is not the case.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/xtcbz/5705398163/in/set-72157626687253144/

That shows one of the transverse roof beams still attached to its original vertical column on the far side of the building, i.e. the east side. If the entire grid of roof beams translated to the south, it wouldn't look like that.

 

[sp2]

I have to say, it may well be an optical illusion, but, if so, it's an incredibly effective one.

Look at the Live-Cam tonight, and tell me that thing doesn't look like freaking Pisa.

(Plus, the camera keeps obsessively zooming in and out on #4 --like the operator's thinking the exact same thing.)

 

[RealWing]

Oyster Creek (BWR-2) has 2 large "emergency condensers" located one level down below the refueling floor. I'm pretty sure I read that Dai-ichi Unit 1 (BWR-3) has similar condensers, but Units 2-5 (BWR-4) do not. That's something I want to clarify.

Unit 1 does have an Emergency Cooling Isolation Condenser

 

[MiceAndMen]

I'm going to have another look at the Oyster Creek blueprints this week; it's been a while since I looked at them closely. Maybe something will stand out now that some time has passed.

Just to follow up to my own post... I looked at them and I can't pretend to know even what all the equipment is there. Heat exchangers, demineralizing gear, reactor water cleanup systems, cooling systems, and a lot of valves and HVAC ducts are all present, but I've never seen any of those up close, and extrapolating what can be seen in the drawings to a completely different plant seems unwise. I also looked at a couple of GE BWR/4 Technical Manual PDFs I have and even they go to great lengths to stress that every plant has unique characteristics.

I did find another document re. the Oyster Creek plant that lists the weights of certain equipment that's moved around the RB by crane. Some of that was interesting, for instance it gives the weight of the 8 semi-circular cavity shield plugs as 85 tons (77,000 kg) each, which is heavier than the drywell head (56,245 kg) and the RPV head (68,311 kg). It gives the weight of the Stud Tensioner Assembly as 24 tons (21,770 kg). All numbers are probably unique to Oyster Creek, but similar plants are likely to be within a similar range.

One thing mentioned that I wasn't aware of is the existence of 4 "Equipment Storage Pool Shield Plugs", each of which weighs more than 37 tons (30,000 kg). No way to know if such things are used at the Dai-ichi reactor buildings, or their size/weight. The equipment pools at Dai-ichi seem to be different in size and shape compared to the one at Oyster Creek, so I won't draw too many conclusions.

The document is accession number ML011270047 if anyone wants the whole thing from the NRC website. I've attached the 2-page excerpt of the Heavy Loads weight table.

 

[razzz]

Someone was asking about the plan for Unit 1 do over. I attached the master idea and a b/w pic of Unit 3 cloud mass.

 

[MadderDoc]

Re unit 3

<..> the entire roof beam structure shifted to the south when it fell back down.

Here is evidence which seems to weaken, if not disprove your hypothesis. I lean to the latter sentiment.

Assuming that the roof structure did not shift south, we are looking here down at what was the NE corner of the roof construction of unit 3. We see a fragment of the upper metal 'X' construct in the NE section of the roof appears to be still affixed to the larger roof structure body. This remaining part is hovering over the service floor in its expected position. And, at the ends the fragment appears to be attached to the larger roof structure in its expected manner for its position, see closeups to the right: affixed to a metal plate with rivets to the west (up) and to a pillar affixment head to the east (down)

If we took the fallen roof beam structure as it is, and shifted it one pillar to the north, we would have this remaining fragment hanging out through the wall, and that'd be absurd. Therefore it cannot be true that the entire roof beam structure shifted one pillar to the south when it fell.

 

[AntonL]

the cam operator had some fun this morning when visibility was good, I was not fast enough to capture units 5 and 6

"[URL
(click for full resolution)[/URL]

 

[triumph61]

I took two snapshots of different Videos.
Perhaps:
1. Roof go up by Explosion
2. It went back lower

 

[AntonL]

Water tanks being erected at Fukushima or is it the Areva processing plant?
all in Japanese.
[PLAIN]http://k.min.us/inguKS.JPG
[PLAIN]http://k.min.us/jkT9d2.JPG
These seem to be dismantled tanks from somewhere else (rust marks on flanges), I hope they do not leak and are earthquake resistant.


Machine translated short comment regarding this video

Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant, rain water and groundwater is also contaminated

The rains are expected to be around due to the typhoon's Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant, in addition to this rain,Has emerged as a new problem must be treated as a ground water polluted water

New Problem - Groundwater to be treated

 

[ihatelies]

That is not correct. The north set roof beams look to have fallen downward. The second and third rafters are still adjacent to the columns and the fourth rafter is still attached to the column on the east (ocean) side of the building, but on the west (land) side the columns fell toward the south and there is a slight southward displacement (~half of a panel) of those rafters (rafters 3, 4 and 5 starting from north). The southern half (three section) looks like it fell straight down. The plume of steam is coming from the spent fuel pool which is on the south side of the containment building.

Overhead of Unit 3 - west top and south to left.

OK thanks folks , I've gone back and looked, and I agree my theory about the roof shifting is incorrect

I had previously seen the middle beam, which appears still anchored to the wall on its eastern edge, however seeing the hole that I show in my first picture - I started looking for another solution. But looking at the roof structure of 4, and looking at the indoor picture of 3 (attached), I can see that there is no steel beam at the end of the building. The end of the roof is supported by the concrete structure. And as pointed out by others, the things I thought were wall beams are actually the #2 beam wrapped back around.

So I'm wrong about that - now let's see if I'm wrong about the Reactor explosion creating that hole.

I'm still stuck on the mystery of the hole. Something big and round went through that roof. It takes a ton of force to bend steel in a perfect arc like that. There was nothing in an arc prior to the explosion.

Now take a look at my attached picture again. I cannot tell for sure, but it does not look like the reactor sits directly below that center beam. The building has six "sections" and therefore 7 columns. If we were to number the columns from south to north 1-7 then that center beam you can clearly see in the wreckage and in the interior picture is attached to column 4 (center of building).

Is it possible that the reactor is offset to the south slightly, so that it sits between Columns 3 and 4? It may seem like I'm grasping at straws, however if the spent fuel pool blew - there's nothing in there that would bend the steel in a round hole like that. An explosion might blow the beams out, but it wouldn't make them round.

 

[yakiniku]

Water tanks being erected at Fukushima or is it the Areva processing plant?

The video says the tanks are for storage of contaminated water. Due to the criticism of the previous release of contaminated water, the government will not release contaminated water any more. It is also mentioned that due to the rain, the ground water will have contamination (doesn't say how much).

Translation of description of the video:

"福島第一原発の周辺でも台風の影響で雨が降ると見られていますが、こうした雨に加え、地下水も汚染水として処理しなければならないことが新たな問題として浮上しています。"

It is believed that there will be the rainfall from influence of the typhoon at the Fukushima daiichi nuclear power plant. A new problem has surfaced that the rain and additionally, the groundwater must be processed as contaminated water.

 

[AntonL]

The video says the tanks are for storage of contaminated water. Due to the criticism of the previous release of contaminated water, the government will not release contaminated water any more.

Yakiniku san - thanks for your translation

The 21 tanks 9 meter by diameter and about equally high will store about 48,000 m³, which is a fraction of the water already accumulated.

more worrying, are these tanks really freestanding on a thin concrete layer over the tarmac of the parking lot? I see no evidence of excavation works for solid foundations.

 

[|Fred]

But looking at the roof structure of 4, and looking at the indoor picture of 3 (attached), I can see that there is no steel beam at the end of the building.

To be more precise there is no double layered steel structure on the north and south end as there is no transversal beam adjacent to the wall. But there still is a single layered steel structure.

I' don't feel like going over every argument again but I've reup a better view of the roof been deformation, that also show you the secondary pool wall, the one adjacent to the reactor concrete slab with a crane on top , toping the reactor biological shield, the one toping the reactor core vessel lid..
[PLAIN]http://k.min.us/ikOZG2.jpg

 

[GJBRKS]

the cam operator had some fun this morning when visibility was good, I was not fast enough to capture units 5 and 6

"[URL
(click for full resolution)[/URL]

Good view ...

Concerning the ' leaning' of unit 4 meme that is current now ,

we can use the rightmost tower to compare its angle with.

If its just the abberation of the zoom lens , we should see a larger deforming angle on that tower ?

And a leftshift of unit 4 when the camera pans to the right ?

 

[Luca Bevil]

Well unless is radius that is 9 meters much less than that (12.000 tonnes).

Where did you get that dimension ?

it is likely that they will not fill them up completely if no adequate foundation is built in time...

 

[sp2]

Good view ...

Concerning the ' leaning' of unit 4 meme that is current now ,

we can use the rightmost tower to compare its angle with.

If its just the abberation of the zoom lens , we should see a larger deforming angle on that tower ?

And a leftshift of unit 4 when the camera pans to the right ?

I would think so, yes.

And I don't see any sign of either, do you?

 

[ihatelies]

To be more precise there is no double layered steel structure on the north and south end as there is no transversal beam adjacent to the wall. But there still is a single layered steel structure.

I' don't feel like going over every argument again but I've reup a better view of the roof been deformation, that also show you the secondary pool wall, the one adjacent to the reactor concrete slab with a crane on top , toping the reactor biological shield, the one toping the reactor core vessel lid..
[PLAIN]http://k.min.us/ikOZG2.jpg[/QUOTE]

I've admitted I was wrong about that beam - actually the correct term is roof truss.

The ones I'm saying are bent in a perfect arc are on the other end of the building.

 

[|Fred]

I'll get back to this in a jiffy
[PLAIN]http://k.min.us/inkwkk.jpg

 

[MadderDoc]

OK thanks folks , I've gone back and looked, and I agree my theory about the roof shifting is incorrect <..>

No worries.

I'm still stuck on the mystery of the hole. Something big and round went through that roof. It takes a ton of force to bend steel in a perfect arc like that. There was nothing in an arc prior to the explosion.

It would help if you pointed out exactly where you look to see the bent steel forming this arc. From knowing that you'd formerly liked to have the roof structure shifted north, it would seem to be somewhere to the south of the position of the reactor well. At this position I see a mess of twisted roof structure, that has apparently been affected by strong heat.

Now take a look at my attached picture again. I cannot tell for sure, but it does not look like the reactor sits directly below that center beam. The building has six "sections" and therefore 7 columns. If we were to number the columns from south to north 1-7 then that center beam you can clearly see in the wreckage and in the interior picture is attached to column 4 (center of building).

Is it possible that the reactor is offset to the south slightly, so that it sits between Columns 3 and 4? It may seem like I'm grasping at straws, however if the spent fuel pool blew - there's nothing in there that would bend the steel in a round hole like that. An explosion might blow the beams out, but it wouldn't make them round.

I think we have good reasons to think that the reactor is not significantly offset from the east/west axis. It has to do with the knowledge that deep down in the basement of this reactor building we have a big circular torus harboured with the basement floors of the reactor building. Consequently the basement floors are assumedly quadratic.

From looking at the photos you will have realized that the upper floors are rectangular, not quadratic, However they are still within the footprint of the base floors, only the base floors extend further to the east. We have good reason to think that the vertical center axis of the reactor coincides with the center of the torus in the base-floor. This means, the position of the reactor well can be determined as done in this markup:

 

[AntonL]

Where did you get that dimension ?

[PLAIN]http://k.min.us/ikP9QM.JPG
height guessed as side on view looks square

 

[Jorge Stolfi]

No worries.
I think we have good reasons to think that the reactor is not significantly offset from the east/west axis... the basement floors are assumedly quadratic.

Correct, all the blueprints confirm both claims.

... this markup:

I agree with your markup of the floor outline except for a few pixels here and there. Tthe upper left corner seems too low, and the upper right is too high. Check the west edge of the flor slab, near the elevator shaft, and extend it both ways. Note that the SW corner pillar was torn away, all the way down to the 3rd floor. Note also that there is perspective distortion so lines that are parallel in space need not be parallel on the image.

On the other hand, your spent-fuel pool seems too long in the N-S direction. I would put the south edge at visible water edge.

 

[MiceAndMen]

Yakiniku san - thanks for your translation

The 21 tanks 9 meter by diameter and about equally high will store about 48,000 m³, which is a fraction of the water already accumulated.

more worrying, are these tanks really freestanding on a thin concrete layer over the tarmac of the parking lot? I see no evidence of excavation works for solid foundations.

12,000 m³, no? Area is pi * radius², not diameter.

 

[ihatelies]

No worries.



It would help if you pointed out exactly where you look to see the bent steel forming this arc.

Sure - Picture number 1 shows it very clearly - I've desaturated everything but the hole. Look at how the crosstie beams are bent in a perfect arc

I think we have good reasons to think that the reactor is not significantly offset from the east/west axis. It has to do with the knowledge that deep down in the basement of this reactor building we have a big circular torus harboured with the basement floors of the reactor building. Consequently the basement floors are assumedly quadratic.

From looking at the photos you will have realized that the upper floors are rectangular, not quadratic, However they are still within the footprint of the base floors, only the base floors extend further to the east. We have good reason to think that the vertical center axis of the reactor coincides with the center of the torus in the base-floor. This means, the position of the reactor well can be determined as done in this markup:

Your markup shows the reactor core offset somewhat.

I've also highlighted your picture from above(attachment #2) - much harder to see the deformed beams and the "hole" but it is there, and when I see this view, the hole is not very far offset from where you show the reactor core.

Can you see what I'm talking about now?

 

[biffvernon]

http://k.min.us/inguKS.JPG
Those water tanks, and the man, are leaning. They're lining everything up to match #4.

 

[MadderDoc]

<..>there is no double layered steel structure on the north and south end as there is no transversal beam adjacent to the wall. But there still is a single layered steel structure.

Right, so seeing that the remains of the roof structure to the SW do display fractions of a double layered structure (double 'X's), we can conclude that the roof structure has also not shifted significantly to the south.

 

[MadderDoc]

Sure - Picture number 1 shows it very clearly - I've desaturated everything but the hole. <..>
Can you see what I'm talking about now?

Yes, perfectly. I'll give it a thought and get back to you.

 

[ihatelies]

Right, so seeing that the remains of the roof structure to the SW do display fractions of a double layered structure (double 'X's), we can conclude that the roof structure has also not shifted significantly to the south.

I've already conceded that I was wrong on that point - no sense discussing it further. Now, take a look at my pictures above of the "hole" in the roof framing that still would be very near directly above the reactor core.

 

[jlduh]

That is not correct. The north set roof beams look to have fallen downward. The second and third rafters are still adjacent to the columns and the fourth rafter is still attached to the column on the east (ocean) side of the building, but on the west (land) side the columns fell toward the south and there is a slight southward displacement (~half of a panel) of those rafters (rafters 3, 4 and 5 starting from north). The southern half (three section) looks like it fell straight down. The plume of steam is coming from the spent fuel pool which is on the south side of the containment building.

Overhead of Unit 3 - west top and south to left.

I was just willing to confirm this point that the roof didn't move to the south still being attached to one pillar at the East side, it just moved two floors DOWN on the west side!http://www.netimago.com/image_198859.html

Now Astro, when you say that the plume of steam is coming from the SFP, this is true (did you see some RECENT footage of reactor 3 by the way? I would like to see such a video to update my visual representation of the situation...) but after the explosion there has been TWO plumes of steam and one was situated at the place where the reactor is (i don't know if this plume totally disappeared after, or reappeared occasionnally?).

http://www.netimago.com/image_198860.html

On this satellite view, that i think most of you saw, taken just after the explosion at n°3, the two plumes are obvious, and the central one (reactor area) is even bigger than the SFP one.

http://www.netimago.com/image_198861.html

 

[MadderDoc]

I've already conceded that I was wrong on that point - no sense discussing it further. Now, take a look at my pictures above of the "hole" in the roof framing that still would be very near directly above the reactor core.

It was not a stab at you. I fact I think was trying to say that we could see that the roof structure is also not displaced to the north. I don't care a damn if I or anyone else has had a wrong theory, now rejected. Haven't we all, and does it not have to be that way, that the road to truth is crooked and paved with rejections of falsehood. Having been wrong is a pride it's what wisdom is made of.

 

[ihatelies]

It was not a stab at you. I fact I think was trying to say that we could see that the roof structure is also not displaced to the north. I don't care a damn if I or anyone else has had a wrong theory, now rejected. Haven't we all, and does it not have to be that way, that the road to truth is crooked and paved with rejections of falsehood. Having been wrong is a pride it's what wisdom is made of.

Thanks. No problem. In fact, if you can prove to me my "hole" is not a hole, then I'm happy to admit I'm wrong there too.

However, I have much more photographic evidence that the #3 may have blown completely open, and at worst doesn't exist anymore.

I know there was pressure data and temp data and all that - however I also know that they were publishing data when there was no one onsite to get the data, and no power onsite for any equipment to function with.

And, having instrumented devices before, I also know that it is very unlikely that any instrumentation at all survived that blast - just look at the place - 1 meter thick bulkheads shredded.

 

[Rive]

On this satellite view, that i think most of you saw, taken just after the explosion at n°3, the two plumes are obvious, and the central one (reactor area) is even bigger than the SFP one.

http://www.netimago.com/image_198861.html

That is the image which were taken only a few moments after the explosion.
Actually I think both big plumes are from the reactor area: the left one from near the equipment pool, the right one is from under the south edge of the overhead crane. These main sources can be seen on the thermal images.
With carefully guessing the position of SFP I can't see any plumes over it.