Males vs. Females: Equality or Prejudice?

[Lisa!]

So why is that men and women never grow up to stop being sexist and opposing each other? I mean they're always making bad jokes about each other and try to prove their superiority. That's pretty annoying and childish. I've to meet someone who really thinks men and women are equal. It seems to me that most of them think "well, let women to have the same rights but at the end it's us guys who rule the world." It just drives me nuts when I see men think they should take care of women and they're cleverer and stronger than women.
Am I just roverrating things because of what happened to me today or the situation is really the way I experessed?

 

[Leonardo Sidis]

Sometimes it seems like the other way to me :)

Men are always expected to hold the door for women, hold a woman's hand while she's stepping down off something, etc. Women aren't expected to hold the door for men lol. Does this encourage equality?

 

[Cyrus]

So why is that men and women never grow up to stop being sexist and opposing each other? I mean they're always making bad jokes about each other and try to prove their superiority. That's pretty annoying and childish. I've to meet someone who really thinks men and women are equal. It seems to me that most of them think "well, let women to have the same rights but at the end it's us guys who rule the world." It just drives me nuts when I see men think they should take care of women and they're cleverer and stronger than women.
Am I just roverrating things because of what happened to me today or the situation is really the way I experessed?

Don't worry about such things lisa, now go get me some kubideh <slap's lisa on the butt >

 

[George Jones]

Don't worry about such things lisa, now go get me some kubideh <slap's lisa on the butt >

If someone's (male or female, I don't care) going to get some kubideh, make sure that there's enough for everyone.

 

[moose]

You women just wouldn't understand

 

[PrudensOptimus]

Gentlemen perform gentle deeds.

Ladies perform feminine needs.

 

[wolram]

Where does this girl get her ideas, sexism died out in the 60s, heck some
times it is even difficult to see if a person is male or female these days,
mind you i do admire the female that shows her feminimity by wearing
a mini skirt and low cut blouse

 

[Alkatran]

TV tells me women are smarter, stronger, faster, and prettier. When was the last time you saw a commercial where a guy showed-up a girl?

 

[Lisa!]

It's the way it is. Men aren't the same as women, and being equal and the same is different. Here you speak of equality and women have their equality, they just try to lower it in front of men because of natural differences. Think again of what you said, because none of it is true. Especially speaking of ruling the world. And if you really think your interpretation is valid, change the world.

Did I say they are the same? Did I say men really rule the world?

 

[Danger]

I don't know; I wasn't listening.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

TV tells me women are smarter, stronger, faster, and prettier. When was the last time you saw a commercial where a guy showed-up a girl?

That's true! I have long noted that commercials and comedy are terribly sexist towards men. You would think that men are too stupid to clean the toilet.

Of course in that particular example they are obviously selling cleaning supplies to woman. How's that for irony?

 

[Lisa!]

Sorry that it's impossible to have a insightful and serious discussion with you guys. I guess I forgot that here's GD...

You seem to speak of equality as being naturally the same. So... what equality are you talking about?

You seem to hear what you expect from people not what they really say! I mean we're human beings at the 1st place not men and women. I explain it to you alter since I don't have time right now...

And if men don't really rule the world, there's only spot for women... and like Leo said, then everything seems the other way.

How great! so things are only balck and white here. Men or women and there's no such a thing as men and women!

 

[Cyrus]

Lisa, you forget that we don't live in Tehran Iran where such matters are critical to society. Our society has actually advanced in the last 100 years, not regressed!

With this attitude, you'll never find a husband

 

[Schrodinger's Dog]

Does anyone take any notice of what comedians say anyway? I fail to see much of a gap these days with both sides coming to terms with the peace settlement. Make love not war

 

[Hootenanny]

Make love not war

Rather apt I think

 

[zoobyshoe]

I mean we're human beings at the 1st place not men and women.

Lisa! I agree with you on this. It has always seemed obvious to me that the overlap between men and women is so great that the differences are not that important. I very, very frequently find myself having a better rapport, on a general human level, with some women than I do with other guys. If I encounter a woman I can't communicate with, it's not because of her sex, but because of some greater individual difference between us: values, interests, the way we were raised, and such. I encounter guys all the time with whom I have no rapport and don't understand and couldn't form a friendship with and who might as well be from another planet for all I understand them.

That said, there are important differences between the sexes that people shouldn't pretend don't exist. To say men and women are equal is something like saying bananas and peaches are equal: it implies an interchangability and sameness that doesn't carry through to all situations. Broadly speaking, each gender has different, but complimentary, strengths. But, given the obvious proof all around us, I don't think anyone should think that people can't excell at things traditionally thought to be the domain of the other gender.

 

[Bladibla]

Men are the best.




Women are not.

Its as simple as that.

 

[Omega_6]

There are certain things that men get the best of, and other things that women get the best of...I feel that it evens out overall (In our society, at least. There are places where this is not true, and these are the places where people should complain.) I don't really want men and women to be the SAME...

There have been times when I have felt like you Lisa!, except that I was treated unfairly because I was male and not female. It works both ways. Isn't there some kind of saying for this phenomenon...oh yes, "The grass is always greener on the other side (of the fence?)."

 

[Math Is Hard]

Men are the best.




Women are not.

Its as simple as that.

Did your boyfriend tell you that?

 

[honestrosewater]

There's a sociologist, http://www.concertideas.com/mk/ , who studies masculinity and likes to tell a story about an exchange between two of his then fellow grad students at a study group back in the 1980s.

In a discussion between two female participants, I first confronted this invisibility of gender to men. I described that moment in the introduction to Manhood in America: A Cultural History:

During one meeting, a white woman and a black woman were discussing whether all women were, by definition, "sisters," because "all women," the white woman noted, had essentially the same experiences as women, and because "all women" faced a common oppression by men. Thus, the white woman asserted that the fact that they were both women bonded them, in spite of racial differences. The black woman disagreed.

"When you wake up in the morning and look in the mirror, what do you see?" she asked.

"I see a woman," replied the white woman.

"That's precisely the problem," responded the black woman. "I see a black woman. To me, race is visible every day, because race is how I am not privileged in our culture. Race is invisible to you, because it's how you are privileged. It's a luxury, a privilege, not to see race all the time. It's why there will always be differences in our experience."
​

As I witnessed this exchange, I was startled, and groaned -- more audibly, perhaps, than I had intended. Being the only man in the room, someone asked what my response had meant.

"Well," I said, "when I look in the mirror, I see a human being. I'm universally generalizable. As a middle class white man, I have no class, no race, no gender. I'm the generic person!"

Sometimes, I like to think that it was on that day that I became a middle class white man.

-http://www.law.duke.edu/journals/djglp/articles/gen4p181.htm

I like the other way he tells it: "...that's the way privilege works. Privilege is invisible to those who have it."

I think these discussions get off on the wrong foot by not clarifying exactly what is meant by "men" and "women" and the differences between the group level and the individual level. Anywho, I love that we have this concept of a generic person, an individual without any further discriminations. (Though I wish English had a common pronoun to refer to this person.) I used to see myself that way when I was younger, and I'm curious about how often these days you guy's biological sex is a factor in your being granted some privilege, or right, vs. being denied one, or even just a factor in your being treated differently.

I have experiences both ways all of the time, and I'd really like to know in whose world gender equality actually exists.

 

[Curious3141]

I think Yes, Minister said it best (love that series - and the books!)

(significantly paraphrasing)"...minority groups like Blacks, women and the disabled..."

"Are women really a minority group?"

"No, but they share the paranoia that is the defining feature of a minority group."

ZINNNNGGGG!

 

[zoobyshoe]

I'm never oblivious to gender, but I have found that I become oblivious to people being black if they speak with a "white" accent. I have five casual friends like this and their being of African descent pretty much faded to insignifigance after the first meeting. When they refer to it every once in a while it startles me. I feel like saying: "You're not a black person, just a person."

 

[Anttech]

I'm never oblivious to gender, but I have found that I become oblivious to people being black if they speak with a "white" accent.

Interesting that you said "white" accent. Classism IMO is far more evident and distruptive nowadays that Racism, or sexism (in the UK at least). The way to judge which "Class" someone belongs to is typically by the way that person speaks.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Interesting that you said "white" accent. Classism IMO is far more evident and distruptive nowadays that Racism, or sexism (in the UK at least). The way to judge which "Class" someone belongs to is typically by the way that person speaks.

I put it in quotes because no one commonly refers to it as an accent at all. Blacks, themselves, refer to it as "talkin' proper".

What whites call a "Black accent" is actually the strong southern accent Blacks all learned to speak English with way back when they were abducted from Africa. There's nothing African about it, but if you wanted to be especially politically correct you might call it an "African-American accent." I'm not sure but I think in deep southern states whites and blacks percieve each other as speaking with the same accent.

Here in the US the only things we have suggestive of Class distinctions are pretty much relegated to money. The more money you have the more social status. That being the case people can change class with a change in their financial situation. How well a person speaks English is an indicator only of how well they want to speak it (witness our president), and accent is pretty much a regional, not a class, indicator.

 

[Lisa!]

Well I guess most of you guys failed to get my point here.
I'm not ranting that it's always women who're treadted unfairly .No, in fact it seems to me that it's the other way nor I have any wish to be a man and be treated like them all the time.
What I'm concerned about is that why most of us have a narrowminded view on opposit sex. well I see that even the stupid guys think that they're smarter and better than all women(well, I guess he thinks that way because of his stupidity) I think we should get to decide about people 1 by 1 and not simply generalize. I mean you try to know someone and then pass judgement on her/him not simply thinking 'well you know how women are so she must be the same way'.
I'm not going to deny our differences and expect society to tread me like men in all cases. I say both men and women have strengthes and weaknesses, and each sexes should try to make up for the opposit sex's weaknesses by his/her strengthes not trying to make fun of that or use it for proving his/her own suporiority!
what I mean by equality is I expect a man to consider me as a human and not a person from the opposit sex. It gets important when they want to get to decide on a issue or pass a judgment. For example it happenes that when you tell a story to people which a man and woman are involved, men accuse the woman of being guilty and vice versa!
Well although I tried to clarify my point here but I'm still in doubt any of you(well other than women) can get my point here.

There's a sociologist, http://www.concertideas.com/mk/ , who studies masculinity and likes to tell a story about an exchange between two of his then fellow grad students at a study group back in the 1980s.
I like the other way he tells it: "...that's the way privilege works. Privilege is invisible to those who have it."

I think these discussions get off on the wrong foot by not clarifying exactly what is meant by "men" and "women" and the differences between the group level and the individual level. Anywho, I love that we have this concept of a generic person, an individual without any further discriminations. (Though I wish English had a common pronoun to refer to this person.) I used to see myself that way when I was younger, and I'm curious about how often these days you guy's biological sex is a factor in your being granted some privilege, or right, vs. being denied one, or even just a factor in your being treated differently.

I have experiences both ways all of the time, and I'd really like to know in whose world gender equality actually exists.

Thanks for your reply!
Well if you notice we don't have equality in most of languages. For example we refer to men as he and women as she in English and we use he for human in genral.well gladly that in our language we use the same pronoun for both sexes but there are other sort problems. Eh I even know of some languages when they refer to object as 'she'!

 

[Hootenanny]

Well if you notice we don't have equality in most of languages. For example we refer to men as he and women as she in English and we use he for human in genral.well gladly that in our language we use the same pronoun for both sexes but there are other sort problems. Eh I even know of some languages when they refer to object as 'she'!

Another interesting point is history; his-story.

 

[Lisa!]

Another interesting point is history; his-story.

very intersting, Hoot!

 

[George Jones]

Well if you notice we don't have equality in most of languages. For example we refer to men as he and women as she in English and we use he for human in genral.well gladly that in our language we use the same pronoun for both sexes but there are other sort problems. Eh I even know of some languages when they refer to object as 'she'!

When I first made my signature, I was somewhat leery of using the Samuel Johnson quote because of its obvious sexism. I decided that people would take it as a product of its times, and not as an indication that I endorsed the seeking of knowledge only by men.

Douglas Hofstadter (author of Godel, Escher, Bach; son of a quarky physics Nobel laureate) wrote a very interesting essay about sexism in language. "Changes in Default Words and Images, Engendered by Rising Consciousness" appeared both in the column Metamagical Themas of the November 1982 issue of Scientific American, and in the book Metamagical Themas.

 

[SizarieldoR]

Well yeah, and stuff, but we males still have the testosteron :P

 

[Cyrus]

The problem is lisa, as I said before, most of us don't face your problem because we don't live in Iran with a backwards culture. It's simply not THAT big a deal here anymore, for the most part. I think you are frustrated because that sort of thing IS a big deal over there.

But again, that is because Iran decided to move backwards and not forwards after 1979. So, you all got what you wished for!

 

[Astronuc]

I like the other way he tells it: "...that's the way privilege works. Privilege is invisible to those who have it."

Very true.

. . . , and I'm curious about how often these days you guy's biological sex is a factor in your being granted some privilege, or right, vs. being denied one, or even just a factor in your being treated differently.

I don't think I have ever been at a disadvantage for being male.

I have experiences both ways all of the time, and I'd really like to know in whose world gender equality actually exists.

As far as professional skills, competence or performance is concerned, gender doesn't matter. All I care about is that someone is responsible and capable.

I work closely with colleagues both male and female, and of different races and ethnic groups, even religious backgrounds. That is all incidental. Bottomline - work is work, results are results - that's all I care about. Beyond work - I very much appreciate all of my colleagues.

As for concerns that women are more likely to be distracted by family matters. Bull****. I am invested in my wife and kids as much as my wife is invested in me and the kids. My wife and I are a team in this regard. I want to be able to take time off for my family -- they are the priority in my life. The job is what I do, not what I am.

As for male vs female. Poor male attitudes toward women have to do with insecurity. It is pure nonsense to arbitrarily think that 'men' are superior to 'women'. Growup!

As a person with privilege, I have the responsibility to use that privilege to minimize that privilege in favor of straightforward justice and equality!

Bottomline - if the system is unjust - it needs to be changed - and I am bound and determined to change it - or die trying!


As for

It's simply not THAT big a deal here anymore . . . .

um yes it is still a big deal in some places within the US, especially in some large corporations, even though they publicly announce or advertise their non-discrimination policies. And look at the Southern Baptist Convention which removed women from positions of responsibility in favor of men, and look at some of their statements regarding the superiority of men to women.

One issue that has been great fodder for critics of the Southern Baptist Convention has been their attitudes toward and treatment of women. In the 1998 convention they revised the Baptist Faith and Message to state that wives must submit to their husbands. In 2000, they passed rules to prevent women from serving as pastor. This has put them out of step with most Protestant denominations.

http://atheism.about.com/od/baptistssouthernbaptists/a/baptistwomen.htm

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/religion/jan-june98/baptist_6-10.html

A wife is to submit herself graciously to the servant leadership of her husband . . . . She, . . . . , has the God-given responsibility to respect her husband and to serve as his helper in managing the household and nurturing the next generation.

SBC, Baptist Faith and Message, XVIII. The Family

I am not picking on them, I am simply pointing out the belief on the part of some that women seem to be expected to be subservient to men, and this is contrary to equality.

 

[Averagesupernova]

It is pure nonsense to arbitarily think that 'men' are superior to 'women'. Growup.

I think I know what you mean, but men are superior to women. In certain areas. And women are superior to men in other areas. It's what makes men men and women women. If it were any other way we would all be the same sex. I don't think anything of it. It has never made me feel inferior that there are things I cannot do as well as most women. It should work the same way the other way around. If what I say and believe makes me a sexist then I'm proud to be guilty.

 

[Math Is Hard]

I always liked what Njorl had to say on the subject:

After having kids, my wife and I realized that the battle of the sexes was small potatoes. We long for those petty squabbles in the days before we were enslaved by our tyrannical and diminutive underlords. "Yes master, I will change your diaper. There is no need to pull it off yourself and whirl it about the room as a demonstration of your power."

 

[Moonbear]

I think I know what you mean, but men are superior to women. In certain areas. And women are superior to men in other areas. It's what makes men men and women women. If it were any other way we would all be the same sex. I don't think anything of it. It has never made me feel inferior that there are things I cannot do as well as most women. It should work the same way the other way around. If what I say and believe makes me a sexist then I'm proud to be guilty.

You seem to be confusing differences with superiority/inferiority. You can have two different ways of doing something, but it doesn't mean one is better than the other. Unless you're talking about giving birth, in which case, yeah, women do that way better than men.

 

[Evo]

Ok, the Pf Sisterhood needs to go on a rescue mission to Iran to get Lisa!

MIH, have you perfected the Klingon "cloaking device"? We're going to need that.