Palin pick an insult to our intelligence

[Gokul43201]

So, if McCain goofs up he gets crucified, but if Obama goofs, it's just "aww.. poor thing was so weary..."

You seem to be using a goof spreading paintbrush that is maybe a couple sizes too big, MIH. Which specific McCain goof are you talking about?

I don't think it is fair to criticize him for talking about the "border between Iraq and Pakistan". I think that's just mis-speaking. I don't think it's fair to criticize him for saying Czechoslovakia instead of Czech Republic - that's just an old habit, and it's clear what he meant.

But I think it is perfectly fair to criticize him for saying that Palin "knows more about energy than probably anyone else in the United States of America," or for getting Sunni and Shia wrong on at least three different occasions, or for repeating the Alaska produces 20% of US energy campaign mantra from a prepared speech. Those are not accidental goofs or slips of the tongue.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

...and constantly asserting that Obama will raise YOUR taxes.

Sure, if you are in the top 5% [is it 5 or 10%?], but it doesn't apply to 90-95% of the taxpayers. It is a blatant lie, but they have probably said it a thousand times by now.

 

[Math Is Hard]

You seem to be using a goof spreading paintbrush that is maybe a couple sizes too big, MIH. Which specific McCain goof are you talking about?

It all starts back here:
https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=1879684&postcount=256

McCain getting ridiculed over the President of Spain thing. I made a joke - but I had a feeling it wouldn't play well to this audience. It didn't.

 

[Math Is Hard]

...and constantly asserting that Obama will raise YOUR taxes.

Sure, if you are in the top 5% [is it 5 or 10%?], but it doesn't apply to 90-95% of the taxpayers. It is a blatant lie, but they have probably said it a thousand times by now.

Who me?

 

[Gokul43201]

It all starts back here:
https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=1879684&postcount=256

McCain getting ridiculed over the President of Spain thing.

That one, I don't think is a goof or a slip-up from weariness.

I made a joke - but I had a feeling it wouldn't play well to this audience. It didn't.

Aww ... sorry sista!

 

[WheelsRCool]

Are you serious?! Palin "discovered" corruption?

Yes; her rooting out corruption led to the resignation of the Alaska Republican Party chairman and the attorney general and the defeat of the governor.

She ran a 527 group for Ted Stevens, the most corrupt Senator in living history, and she came to the governor's post with his substantial support. Please do some investigation and fact-checking.

And she has called on him to come clean about his financials. No different type of relation than Senator Obama and his relation to Tony Rezko I'd think.

 

[WheelsRCool]

...and constantly asserting that Obama will raise YOUR taxes.

Sure, if you are in the top 5% [is it 5 or 10%?], but it doesn't apply to 90-95% of the taxpayers. It is a blatant lie, but they have probably said it a thousand times by now.

If he wants to pay for even part of his spending proposals, he will have to increase taxes on more than the top 5%; and if he raises the cap on the payroll tax, it is more than 5% who will see their taxes raised. Also, about three out of four individual income tax filers in the highest-earning 1% are small businessses, meaning under Senator Obama, many will see their tax rates go up, and as we know, many businesses pass their taxes onto the consumer, or cut benefits, or fire workers, etc...

It is also a blatant lie to claim that 95% will see their taxes "lowered," as about 40% don't pay any tax, they get a tax credit, or a "free" check from the government. Pure wealth redistribution. It's the oldest political trick in the book, tax "the rich" (really the upper middle-class as the rich can find ways to hide their money), while promising a bunch of freebies to the lower-earners.

 

[Astronuc]

Maybe we need a geography test for President.

BTW, this applies to all candidates. I'd really like to know what each candidate knows about the world, world leaders, the United Nations, US history, World history, the US economy, the global economy, . . . . I'd also like to know what languages they understand.

So far, I haven't been really impressed by anyone who has been president or has attempted to become president with respect to their world view.

 

[Vid]

BTW, this applies to all candidates. I'd really like to know what each candidate knows about the world, world leaders, the United Nations, US history, World history, the US economy, the global economy, . . . . I'd also like to know what languages they understand.

So far, I haven't been really impressed by anyone who has been president or has attempted to become president with respect to their world view.

I agree with you that it is important to have bearing on a candidates knowledge in all these topics, but one person can't be expected to be a master of all those disciplines. Obama is an expert in constitutional law, but do I expect him to be an economics expert? No, but I expect him to able to interpret and evaluate information given to him by people who've spent their lives studying these subjects in a rational, logical manner. No disrespect for McCain and his military service or the naval academy, but comparing the type of logical, succinct thinking pounded into law school student at one of the nations best schools versus the military oriented education of a naval academy leads me to believe Obama is by far the most suited for the Presidency regardless of whether I lean politically to the left or right.

 

[LowlyPion]

"Palin linked electoral success to prayer of Kenyan witchhunter"

Her [Mama Jane] alleged involvement in fortune-telling and the fact that she lived near the site of a number of fatal car accidents led Pastor Muthee to publicly declare her a witch responsible for the town’s ills, and order her to offer her up her soul for salvation or leave Kiambu.

Says the Monitor, “Muthee held a crusade that “brought about 200 people to Christ”.” They set up round-the-clock prayer intercession in the basement of a grocery store and eventually, says the pastor “the demonic influence – the ‘principality’ over Kiambu –was broken”, and Mama Jane fled the town.

According to accounts of the witchhunt circulated on evangelical websites such as Prayer Links Ministries, after Pastor Muthee declared Mama Jane a witch, the townspeople became suspicious and began to turn on her, demanding that she be stoned. Public outrage eventually led the police to raid her home, where they fired gunshots, killing a pet python which they believed to be a demon.

After Mama Jane was questioned by police – and released – she decided it was time to leave town, the account says.

Pastor Muthee has frequently referred to this witchhunt in his sermons as an example of the power of “spiritual warfare”. In October 2005, he delivered ten sermons at the Wasilla Assembly of God, the audio of which was available on the church’s website until it was removed around the time Mrs Palin’s candidacy was announced.

http://timesonline.typepad.com/uselections/2008/09/palin-linked-el.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yx-Ka0NTgRw

 

[LowlyPion]

Chuck Hagel blasts Palin's experience.

Sen. Chuck Hagel of Nebraska became the nation's most prominent Republican officeholder to publicly question whether Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin has the experience to serve as president.

http://www.startribune.com/politics...c:E7_ec7PaP3iUiD3aPc:_Yyc:aULPQL7PQLanchO7DiU

"I think it's a stretch to, in any way, to say that she's got the experience to be president," he said.

 

[LowlyPion]

Here is the site that Palin promised to make available if elected.

http://www.usaspending.gov/


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yEXlROKR6dg

 

[Astronuc]

Lipstick Bungle

Mr. McCain, on Monday you repeated your delusional notion that the fundamentals of the economy are strong. Now, the federal government is working on a deal to save that economy from collapsing. You have admitted that the economy is not your forte, so you could have used a running mate with some financial chops. (Remember Mitt Romney?)

But no. Who did you pick? SnowJob SquareGlasses whose financial credentials include running Wasilla into debt, listing (but not selling) a plane on EBay and flip-flopping on a bridge to wherever. In fact, when it comes to real issues in general, she may prove to be a liability.

. . . .

At your[McCain's] first joint town hall meeting with her in Michigan on Wednesday, in front of an invitation-only crowd of Republicans no less, she dodged substantive questions about the issues as if they were sniper fire, while issuing a faux challenge to the audience to play a game of “stump the candidate”. Seriously?

. . . .

Interesting that Palin ran a Wasilla into debt. She should feel right at home in Washington.

As for Palin discovering corruption in Alaska, that's after lots of other people were aware. But given how obvious it was, she couldn't ignore, and she certainly seems to have used it against her opponent. But then, Palin has apparently introduced her own patronage system.

 

[turbo]

Another Palin lie falls apart: Palin claims that she fired the director of public safety not for refusing to fire her ex-brother-in-law, but for a trip that Monegan planned to DC, and that the trip was unauthorized. Untrue.

Palin has maintained that she fired Monegan not over the status of Trooper Mike Wooten, but over budget disagreements - specifically a trip Monegan planned to Washington which she said was unauthorized.

...

Palin, saying she did not authorize the expenses for the travel, cited that trip as a primary example of the insubordination that led to Monegan's firing.

However, Palin's chief of staff did authorize the travel to Washington.

A travel authorization document signed by Palin's Chief of Staff Mike Nizich on June 18 approved Monegan's trip to Washington for the purpose of meeting Sen. Lisa Murkowski.

The document's existence was first reported by ABC News on Friday.

Monegan told ABC that the travel authorization was explicitly to pursue funding for the anti-sexual-violence program, though the document does not state that as a reason for the trip.

://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/09/20/politics/main4462366.shtml

 

[LowlyPion]

Another Palin lie falls apart: Palin claims that she fired the director of public safety not for refusing to fire her ex-brother-in-law, but for a trip that Monegan planned to DC, and that the trip was unauthorized. Untrue.

://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/09/20/politics/main4462366.shtml

Apparently the Legislature is going to release their report, with or without the depositions.

The cynical strategy that Palin is attempting is that if she refuses to be deposed and all the witnesses refuse to honor the subpoenas that the legislature won't be able to act to find them in contempt without a full hearing before the legislature before the election. Thus thwarting the completion of the report before the election.

So they will report what they have publicly October 10. Unfortunately it will be 8 days after the VP debates. That would be a fun grenade to play with during the debate. Maybe they should speed it up?

 

[LowlyPion]

Another Palin lie falls apart: Palin claims that she fired the director of public safety not for refusing to fire her ex-brother-in-law, but for a trip that Monegan planned to DC, and that the trip was unauthorized. Untrue.

://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/09/20/politics/main4462366.shtml

This part of the article suggests even another cover-up.

Monegan told ABC that the travel authorization was explicitly to pursue funding for the anti-sexual-violence program, though the document does not state that as a reason for the trip.

McCain spokesman Taylor Griffin said Friday that the travel authorization was for a routine trip, and that state commissioners regularly travel to meet members of Alaska's congressional delegation.

"He was not authorized to lobby Congress," Griffin said.

He went on behalf of the state, to meet with the state congressional representative - presumably state oriented business.

But the reason for the trip was not recorded as Lobbying. Apparently the Governor's office chose not to recognize it as that, so they couldn't be held accountable for spending money on lobbying efforts, even if it would have been in support of his own state congresswoman?

Otherwise, what irresponsible abuse is that for the state police commissioner to go to the congressional office of his own state?

How is that insubordination? Or is the insubordination buried in his failure to bend to the will of a governor seeking vindictive retribution on behalf of her sister?

 

[WheelsRCool]

Lipstick Bungle

Interesting that Palin ran a Wasilla into debt. She should feel right at home in Washington.

Well the town wanted a sports complex, and she said that they would need to increase I think the sales tax a bit and they put it on the ballot for the citizens to vote for or against; they voted for it, so the town went into debt to finance it. She cut the town's property taxes and business taxes. She also reduced her own salary.

Individuals, towns, cities, corporations, nations, etc...all use debt to finance things. As Governor of Alaska, she cut the budget and earmarks and she has vetoed about $500 million thus far, and the state has a budget surplus, which she distributed out to the state's residents.

 

[edward]

The only thing Palin distributed out to residents was the same oil revenues, which have always been distributed to Alaskan residents

 

[LowlyPion]

... and the state has a budget surplus, which she distributed out to the state's residents.

That's really a total misrepresentation of any budgetary skills when the state is collecting $7B in revenues just from the oil companies and $2.5B from the Federal government.

Do the citizens like it? Sure. They are gouging the oil companies. And soaking up pork barrel projects.

As to the Wasilla Sports Complex, there are reports of a lot of ill will floating around about the mishandled land purchase and the extra cost to the city. Not exactly the kind of thing that demonstrates managerial expertise.

Her populism is purchased. And apparently her management skills are an illusion.

Why deny what Chuck Hagel has the courage to recognize: She's unfit to hold the office.
http://www.startribune.com/politics...c:E7_ec7PaP3iUiD3aPc:_Yyc:aULPQL7PQLanchO7DiU

 

[edward]

As for the Wasilla sports complex, Palin ordered construction to begin before the city had legal title to the property it was built on. OOPS

http://edition.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/09/18/palin.arena/

 

[LowlyPion]

As for the Wasilla sports complex, Palin ordered construction to begin before the city had legal title to the property it was built on. OOPS

http://edition.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/09/18/palin.arena/

The video report itself is pretty compelling.

http://edition.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/09/18/palin.arena/#cnnSTCVideo

The town is saddled with a .5% sales tax, runs about $110K loss on fees- maintenance and has about $8M left on the bond to pay it off. And may have several million more to pay if the Alaska Supreme Court rules for the owner who had his land appropriated.
http://www.cityofwasilla.com/Modules/ShowDocument.aspx?documentid=134

 

[WheelsRCool]

That's really a total misrepresentation of any budgetary skills when the state is collecting $7B in revenues just from the oil companies and $2.5B from the Federal government.

Do the citizens like it? Sure. They are gouging the oil companies. And soaking up pork barrel projects.

She has vetoed more than any other governor in the state's history, and from my understanding, they aren't gouging the oil companies in the traditional sense. Taxing oil in Alaska is different than Washington imposing some windfall profits tax on Big Oil to "punish" Big Oil for making "obscene profits." Alaskans own the oil in Alaska according to the state constitution, and the governor of the state has to follow the constitution. They could try to change the constitution I suppose, but then the state would have to implement a state tax and a sales tax, of which Alaska has none. When the state's revenues increased due to the increase in the price of oil, they just increased the money being sent out to the citizens.

As to the Wasilla Sports Complex, there are reports of a lot of ill will floating around about the mishandled land purchase and the extra cost to the city. Not exactly the kind of thing that demonstrates managerial expertise.

Her populism is purchased. And apparently her management skills are an illusion.

You have no way to know if her populism is "purchased." However, assuming you are correct, you assume that Senator Obama's populism isn't similar...? He is essentially promising to help people pay for education, healthcare, their mortgages, etc...which means "take money from the wealthier and give to the poorer." "The government will take care of all your problems."

There is all sorts of stuff (and lies!) "floating around" about her; she has been vetted more thoroughly in the last few weeks then Senator Obama and Senator Biden in this entire campaign.

Why deny what Chuck Hagel has the courage to recognize: She's unfit to hold the office.
http://www.startribune.com/politics...c:E7_ec7PaP3iUiD3aPc:_Yyc:aULPQL7PQLanchO7DiU

One could go back and forth on stuff like this all day. Hagel is a strict Obama supporter. Why deny what Senator Lieberman has the courage to recognize? ;)

 

[LowlyPion]

You have no way to know if her populism is "purchased."

Sure I do. Her image is apparently a cultivated series of mistruths intended to create a myth of populism based on the appearance of integrity and faith and frugality, when she acts hypocritically, even vindictively as in the troopergate issue, and would impose her faith based beliefs on others, while the reality of her state budget is that it is awash in surplus revenue.

 

[WheelsRCool]

Sure I do. Her image is apparently a cultivated series of mistruths intended to create a myth of populism based on the appearance of integrity and faith and frugality,

Sounds more like Senator Obama to me; which mistruths do you speak of...?

when she acts hypocritically, even vindictively as in the troopergate issue, and would impose her faith based beliefs on others, while the reality of her state budget is that it is awash in surplus revenue.

The record shows she would not impose her beliefs on others.

 

[lisab]

The record shows she would not impose her beliefs on others.

She wanted creationism "discussed" in Alaskan science classes. And wouldn't you expect her to back pro-life judges to the Supreme Court?

Both of those examples are imposing her Christian values on those of us who aren't Christian.

 

[Vid]

She also reduced her own salary

But just-released records from the Wasilla clerk's office show a slightly more complicated picture. Palin's pay did drop from $64,200 in October 1996 to $61,200 in January 1997. But, six months later, in June 1998, it jumped to $68,000. Palin's pay dipped once more in July 1999 to $66,000, according to the records, but it went back to $68,000 three months later and stayed at that level until Palin left office in October of 2002.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09/19/AR2008091903756.html

Yea, she reduced it by -3800.

 

[Evo]

Hagel is a strict Obama supporter.

Prove it. Post links to back this up.

The record shows she would not impose her beliefs on others.

Link to these records.

 

[WheelsRCool]

She wanted creationism "discussed" in Alaskan science classes.

Yes, alongside evolutionary teaching, and she never pushed the Alaska Board of Education to teach creationism.

And wouldn't you expect her to back pro-life judges to the Supreme Court?

If she has a choice between pro-life or pro-choice, she is going to of course choose pro-life. Just as you would choose pro-choice, which is imposing your own beliefs on people as well.

Both of those examples are imposing her Christian values on those of us who aren't Christian.

I disagree.

Prove it. Post links to back this up.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/05/20/chuck-hagel-takes-on-mcca_n_102775.html
http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/08/chuck_hagel_an_obamabiden_tick.php

Link to these records.

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/sliming_palin.html

 

[LowlyPion]

Just as you would choose pro-choice, which is imposing your own beliefs on people as well.

Surely you appreciate the flaw in this logic.

Telling someone they have no choice is imposing belief. Telling someone they have a choice leaves them with a personal decision and not a mandate that they may choose only one way.

How do you harmonize your beliefs about letting states determine minimum wages for themselves and not force one on them and enforcing anti-abortion on someone?

 

[LowlyPion]

Yes, alongside evolutionary teaching, ...

But there is no basis to creationism, except among those that refuse to accept that the Bible version of creation is myth. It has no equal standing outside the context of faith.

Why should we cripple our children with a syllabus that even suggests myth as fact?

 

[lisab]

Just as you would choose pro-choice, which is imposing your own beliefs on people as well.

That's preposterous! If you don't want to have an abortion...then don't have one!

That's the "choice" in "pro-choice"...you know, government not making decisions for us, and out of our lives, and all that?!?

 

[Vid]

Technically, he's right since the right doesn't believe people should have a choice, but that's mostly semantics.

 

[WheelsRCool]

Surely you appreciate the flaw in this logic.

Telling someone they have no choice is imposing belief. Telling someone they have a choice leaves them with a personal decision and not a mandate that they may choose only one way.

By that version of reasoning, yes; if you believe that abortion is pure murder, then the "choice" argument isn't valid. I'm not saying either is correct, I'm just saying, you're talking about two different ways of thinking about it.

How do you harmonize your beliefs about letting states determine minimum wages for themselves and not force one on them and enforcing anti-abortion on someone?

Why shouldn't states determine their own minimum wages?

But there is no basis to creationism, except among those that refuse to accept that the Bible version of creation is myth. It has no equal standing outside the context of faith.

Well, for one thing, this is why the federal government never should have gotten into education in the first place; leave it to the states. If the folks in Alabama vote in people who will implement creationism teaching alongside evolutionary teaching, let that be their choice. If the folks in California want no such thing, let that be their choice.

Why should we cripple our children with a syllabus that even suggests myth as fact?

It can be healthy debate to listen to both sides, but again, that's why I'd leave it to the states personally.

That's preposterous! If you don't want to have an abortion...then don't have one!

That's the "choice" in "pro-choice"...you know, government not making decisions for us, and out of our lives, and all that?!?

You don't understand fully the pro-life stance. It isn't about infringing on a woman's right to choose or dictating to her about how to use her body. According to the pro-life stance, you are allowing the State (as in the government) to determine the intrinsic value of human life. To a staunch pro-lifer, this is dangerous, because it can lead to things like the eugenics movement which the Nazis utilized to kill Jews, it can lead to the State saying that if a person grows old enough (especially in conjunction with a nationalized healthcare system), that that person needs to die, in extreme cases, trying to create some "master race" where you kill off any type of "imperfect" baby, etc...yes, we obviously aren't a Nazi state with legalized abortion, and I doubt we would turn into a police state anytime soon if the Supreme Court recently had determined that the 2nd Amendment was a collective right; but just like the 2nd Amendment being so vitally important to many Americans, abortion is the same to them.

In their view, you absolutely do not let the State determine the intrinsic value of human life; me personally, I tend to believe that a woman should have a right to abortion during the first trimester, although I don't like it; after that, I view it as murder. The Supreme Court decided that abortion can be for any trimester; that it is not murdering a human even if you technically have to dismember the baby to abort it if it's later on in the pregnancy (although I believe most abortions are first-trimester abortions).

Thus, technically both the pro-life and pro-choice people believe in the same values, just applied to different people:

The pro-life view believes in protecting the right of the human being (or potential human being, if its an embryo) to live, and in limiting the power of the State to determine exactly what a human life is

The pro-choice view believes in protecting the right of the woman to do what she pleases with her own body, and in limiting the power of the State to tell her whether or not she can have an abortion.

One can make arguments such as, "Why shouldn't a woman be allowed to abort a child when that child will be born with a severe disability; what kind of hell will that child end up having to live in this cold world?"

But then one can reason, "But exactly how many abortions are children that will have a severe disability, and ones that simply came 'at the wrong time' and would have been a 'burden?' " How many potential normal, healthy babies (or embryos, depending on your view) were aborted (or killed, depending on your view) in comparison to the amount of potential disabled people who were "saved" from having to go through a terrible life...?

Yes, there are radical pro-life nutcases out there, but do not assume the pro-life people are a bunch of religious hacks who just want to dictate to women about their bodies. They do not see it that way.

 

[LowlyPion]

It isn't about infringing on a woman's right to choose or dictating to her about how to use her body.

No that's exactly what it is. Don't even pretend otherwise. It's specious and irresponsible to suggest that there is any progression to state sponsored genocide or genetic purification as a consequence of giving a woman a choice.

Anti-abortionists are left to the practice of their genetic game of chance as they wish. No one is looking to take their choice or belief away.

Palin is apparently just such a dangerous kind of person in this regard as evidenced by her requirement that rape victims in Wasilla would have to pay for any rape kit work-ups. The State of Alaska disagreed with Palin's choice and mandated all districts must pay. An example of religious activism masquerading as a fiscal conservative.

 

[LowlyPion]

It can be healthy debate to listen to both sides, ...

That's perfectly acceptable for Sunday School. But unfortunately for your point we are talking about publicly funded education.

With no responsible scientific basis for such creationist nonsense, Palin's even suggesting that it might be discussed within the context of science is irresponsible.