Presidential Debate #3: Fireworks or Stale Bread?

[TheStatutoryApe]

I just heard the Joe plumber bit and didn't feel I could stand much more.

I've never really seen Obama do much negative campaigning. Those 'negative' things I have heard were simply pointing out facts about McCain's (or Hillary's) track record. The anti-Obama ads I have seen almost always seem to be personal attacks.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

On the Fox Text Message Poll its running 87% McCain - 11% Obama.

According to the CNN poll, that was approximately the split among Republicans.

 

[OmCheeto]

I just heard the Joe plumber bit and didn't feel I could stand much more.

I've never really seen Obama do much negative campaigning. Those 'negative' things I have heard were simply pointing out facts about McCain's (or Hillary's) track record. The anti-Obama ads I have seen almost always seem to be personal attacks.

I agree. How could Obama have not told that guy about S-Corporations. Is he trying to go mainstream or what? I mean, there must be 10's of thousands of business's in America that don't know about that loophole.

Oh wait... You're talking about the debate. Um... never mind.

 

[LowlyPion]

After reading the John Lewis statements again, I don't get what McCain's sniffling about. It's a wholly fabricated issue.

Lewis was clearly talking about the environment that they have been creating and not equating McCain to Wallace.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/thenation/20081012/cm_thenation/45371531

 

[Astronuc]

Ohio plumber becomes focus of debate
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081016/ap_on_el_pr/joe_the_plumber

Earlier this week, when Wurzelbacher got a chance to speak with Obama when the candidate visited Toledo, he told Obama that his tax plan would keep him from buying the business that currently employs him.
. . . .
McCain then looked directly into the TV camera and said: "Joe, I want to tell you, I'll not only help you buy that business that you worked your whole life for and I'll keep your taxes low and I'll provide available and affordable health care for you and your employees. And I will not stand for a tax increase on small business income."
. . . .
"Not only do 98 percent of small businesses make less than $250,000, but I also want to give them additional tax breaks, because they are the drivers of the economy," Obama said. "They produce the most jobs."
. . . .
In Toledo on Sunday, Wurzelbacher told Obama that he was preparing the company, which earns more than $250,000 a year, and said: "Your new tax plan is going to tax me more, isn't it?"

Obama said that under his proposal taxes on any revenue from $250,000 on down would stay the same, but that amounts above that level would be subject to a 39 percent tax, instead of the current 36 percent rate.

"And the reason why we're doing that is because 95 percent of small businesses make less than 250 (thousand). So what I want to do is give them a tax cut. I want to give all these folks who are bus drivers, teachers, auto workers who make less, I want to give them a tax cut," he said.
. . . .

It would seem McCain, Obama and Wurzelbacher don't know much about corporate taxes. Even if Wurzelbacher's new business were to make more than $250K, he doesn't necessarily pay more taxes, and if face if he's smart, he won't pay any corporate income tax. It wasn't made clear if 'make' means gross or net earnings, i.e. before or after taxes and expenses. If properly structured, a small business can earn millions, as mine does and not pay taxes. Most small companies do not pay corporate income taxes.

 

[Art]

Mccain is talking to Joe The Plumber now.

Joe the plumber says he is not going to start a business as his anticipated income of $250,000 a year will attract more tax under Obama.

Personally I think Joe is right.

If Joe would forgo an income of $250K a year because he might have to pay a small amount of extra tax then he really shouldn't go into business as he is obviously too stupid to run one successfully.

 

[phoenixy]

Well, so that was it.

John McCain was taken to school, although he didn't have any class.

Tom Daschle: "2/3 of Americans already think John McCain is an angry candidate, it looked like tonight he spent 90 minutes trying to convince the other third."


Edit: I am so looking forward to this week's SNL. It's going to completely destroy Joe the plumber the plant. This guy is already voluntarily doing surreal interviews that can be consider as self-parody. Whoever he eventually endorse in this election, it will make McCain camp look bad.

http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/

The Joe file

Two readers with access to the Ohio voter file say that Joe Wurzelbacher's inluence on this cycle will be limited in one way: He doesn't appear to be registered to vote.

(And yes, the freelance opposition research on Joe began before the debate ended.)

 

[Flat]

McCain had some of the best facial expressions (like when Obama brought up fox news).

 

[Astronuc]

Grading the Final Presidential Debate
http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/20081016/us_time/gradingthefinalpresidentialdebate

Time gave Obama an overall grade: B

McCain was given an overall grade: A-

 

[OmCheeto]

Joe the plumber says he is not going to start a business as his anticipated income of $250,000 a year will attract more tax under Obama.

Personally I think Joe is right.

If Joe would forgo an income of $250K a year because he might have to pay a small amount of extra tax then he really shouldn't go into business as he is obviously too stupid to run one successfully.

What do you expect? He's a plumber! He should hire a tax attorney for $250k/year and then he wouldn't have to worry about any profits.

 

[LowlyPion]

"Joe" is scheduled as a guest on Huckabee this weekend on Fox.

The question to me now is whether Joe was a plant, or is just a poor schlep caught in the media crosshairs.

 

[OmCheeto]

"Joe" is scheduled as a guest on Huckabee this weekend on Fox.

The question to me now is whether Joe was a plant, or is just a poor schlep caught in the media crosshairs.

I just watched the Cavuto-Joe interview:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0PnK...pelled_joe_the_plumber_into_the_limelight.php

He claims to live in a $90,000 house, and lives paycheck to paycheck. Let's see, even if all of his $250,000 were taxed at 39%, his company would net $150,000 a year. Enough to buy a bigger house every year for the rest of his life! He also called Obama a socialist. Does he think the current tax structure is not socialist? What exactly is Obama doing that politicians haven't been doing with tax structures for decades? He's simply bumping the numbers around.

Yes Astro, I know what you said, and I agree. 10 minutes with a tax adviser and the whole thing becomes moot.

My new opinion of Joe is that he is someone who does not want Obama to be president. And it has nothing to do with Obama's tax plan.

If Joe would forgo an income of $250K a year because he might have to pay a small amount of extra tax then he really shouldn't go into business as he is obviously too stupid to run one successfully.

I now agree. No one that stupid should run a business.

 

[LowlyPion]

I just watched the Cavuto-Joe interview

Joe the Plumber is looking more like Joe the Shill. (I wonder what he's getting off camera from Fox and/or Republicans?)

Another Republican distraction - false issue.

 

[LightbulbSun]

Not that he's qualified to discuss politics, but http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Francesa" said this was Mccain's best debate last night, and that the economic crisis is not Bush's fault because Wall Street has been full of crooks for 40 years. And now the fallacious argument "no one ever mentions this, since 9/11 we haven't been attacked. Isn't that a good job by the president? They've kept us safe for 7 years."

This is proof positive that not all opinions are equally valid.Now he's harping on about how Bush's strong point was keeping us safe for 7 years. My god, this is such a dumb argument. And before 9/11 we were safe for 8 years so that must of been Clinton's strong point.

 

[Evo]

It was just on CNN, the guy pretending to be "Joe the Plumber" isn't even a licensed plumber. The whole thing is a fraud. A fraud that McCain made a big part of his debate. OOOOPS. Might want to watch the gullibility there McCain.

 

[LightbulbSun]

It was just on CNN, the guy pretending to be "Joe the Plumber" isn't even a licensed plumber. The whole thing is a fraud. A fraud that McCain made a big part of his debate. OOOOPS. Might want to watch the gullibility there McCain.

And so the plot thickens.

 

[Gokul43201]

It was just on CNN, the guy pretending to be "Joe the Plumber" isn't even a licensed plumber. The whole thing is a fraud.

That's not fair. He does work for a plumbing company, doesn't he?

 

[Count Iblis]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081016/ap_on_el_pr/joe_the_plumber"

 

[Ivan Seeking]

So the guy doesn't run a business; he isn't a licensed plumber; he supposes that if he did, and if he was, and if he knew how to run a business, Obama's plan would hurt him because he would make too much money.

Got it.

I suggest that Joe doesn't have a clue.

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081016/ap_on_el_pr/joe_the_plumber"

It gets funnier.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aWDHvDjnDnTs&refer=home"

 

[LowlyPion]

... because Wall Street has been full of crooks for 40 years.

Just 40 years? Not since they met under the buttonwood tree where the old stockade fence used to be?

 

[LightbulbSun]

Just 40 years? Not since they met under the buttonwood tree where the old stockade fence used to be?

These aren't my thoughts. These are the thoughts of Mike Francesa. Read the whole post, it only gets better.

 

[Evo]

I can't open jimmy's link.

McCain did Joe the Plumber no favors

You knew it would happen. Joe the Plumber's 15 minutes of fame in last night's debate have turned into a round of public humiliation for the wannabe business owner. The Toledo Blade is reporting that Joe has no plumber's license.

To make matters worse, the Blade also found that the Ohio Department of Taxation placed a lien against Joe because $1,183 in personal property taxes had not been paid. To pile on, the paper disclosed, based on divorce records, Joe's 2006 income — $40,000, hardly enough to qualify for the tax hike he's so concerned about.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/mcb_election2008/20081016/wl_mcb_election2008/mccaindidjoetheplumbernofavors

 

[LowlyPion]

It gets funnier.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aWDHvDjnDnTs&refer=home"

Egads. Republican dirty tricks? Hoisted on their own petards?

 

[LowlyPion]

I can't open jimmy's link.

It opened for me. Here is the first paragraph.

`Joe the Plumber,' Who Dislikes Obama Tax Plan, Owes Back Taxes

By Ryan J. Donmoyer

Oct. 16 (Bloomberg) -- ``Joe the plumber,'' the Toledo, Ohio, man whose complaints about Barack Obama's tax plan were featured in the final presidential debate, owes the state of Ohio almost $1,200 in back income taxes.

 

[turbo]

I won't post the link, because Evo would delete it, but Robert J. Elisberg is reporting that Joe "the plumber" Wurzelbacher is the son of Robert Wurzelbacher, an executive of American Continental Corporation, the parent company of Charles Keating's Lincoln Savings. If this is true, the mainstream press should pick it up, though they seem to have lost the talent for investigative reporting in the last 10-20 years. McCain's still pallin' around with the Keating crowd.

Edit: Possible correction. Joe is said to be closely related to Robert Wurzelbacher Jr, who is Charles Keating's son-in-law and vice-president of Keating's bank's parent company. Robert is going to be going to prison for arranging loans from Lincoln Savings to a company in which he and Keating held interests, and which he knew were unlikely to be repaid.

Edit: (again) that NYT story was an old one, with a very recent date on the web-page header. Sorry for the confusion. Joe could actually be the son of Robert, as Elisberg asserted.

Thanks, Art!

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9F0CE7DE123CF930A25751C1A965958260

 

[Ivan Seeking]

CNN reports that at least one "Joe the Plumber" is getting innundated with calls.
http://www.joelaratheplumber.com/

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Whoops, CNN reports that now Joe admits that he didn't understand the tax plan - that he wouldn't have been affected by Obama's plan as he suggested, even in his hypothetical example. It seems that he thought purchasing a $250,000 business is the same as making 250K profit. So Joe now understands the difference between gross, and taxable income.

Thanks Joe. Have a beer.

 

[Art]

Whoops, CNN reports that now Joe admits that he didn't understand the tax plan - that he wouldn't have been affected by Obama's plan as he suggested, even in his hypothetical example. It seems that he thought purchasing a $250,000 business is the same as making 250K profit. So Joe now understands the difference between gross, and taxable income.

Thanks Joe. Have a beer.

Told you he was too stupid to run a business

 

[Astronuc]

Whoops, CNN reports that now Joe admits that he didn't understand the tax plan - that he wouldn't have been affected by Obama's plan as he suggested, even in his hypothetical example. It seems that he thought purchasing a $250,000 business is the same as making 250K profit. So Joe now understands the difference between gross, and taxable income.

Thanks Joe. Have a beer.

I'm disturbed by the fact that Obama did not point that out. I hope Obama learns the basics before he takes office.

I'm disappointed that McCain misrepresented this issue.

 

[Evo]

I'm disturbed by the fact that Obama did not point that out. I hope Obama learns the basics before he takes office.

It was the wrong place for Obama to be doing a lot of fact finding and interrogating and embarrassing the guy. This was a question thrown at Obama at a rally. Why would you be disturbed or think Obama doesn't understand? He was going by the lies that this guy said, he didn't have the information that was dug up today.

I'm disappointed that McCain misrepresented this issue.

McCain is stupid for deciding to make it half of his debate without getting the facts first. If you plan to make a campaign issue out of something, then you *do* need to make sure the person isn't a fake and you've got the facts.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

I'm disturbed by the fact that Obama did not point that out. I hope Obama learns the basics before he takes office.

Joe misrepresented the situation. I don't see how that's any fault of Obama's.

I'm disappointed that McCain misrepresented this issue

He was shooting from the hip again. All political bias aside, if there is one thing that I have learned about McCain, it is that he is reckless.

Well, two things. McCain is very dishonest! Even Rove [of all people!] said McCain was over the line with his untruthful ads and statements. Even in his twisted mind, Rove believed that his own campaign tactics "passed the truth test", but not McCain's.

 

[LowlyPion]

I'm disturbed by the fact that Obama did not point that out. I hope Obama learns the basics before he takes office.

I'm disappointed that McCain misrepresented this issue.

Why would you expect Obama to have researched this guy's situation before McCain tried to blindside him with the issue in the debate? He was just engaging the guy along a rope line that sprung out of the weeds.

If there is any criticism to be leveled it's at McCain's sorry campaign for fabricating an issue without even vetting the guy's situation. It's for misrepresenting that this Joe had $250,000 to begin with, much less that he would be making that much to be taxed.

Obama for his part looked to me to be merely responding by describing his plan and reiterating that it didn't affect those making less than $250,000.

I'm puzzled at what you would have expected Obama to do? Anticipate that McCain would come with another fraudulent issue and make comment before he had any knowledge of specifically how the Republicans would have stretched and smeared the facts?

 

[Gokul43201]

Mo' Jo' -> http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27221645/

While Wurzelbacher told Obama that he would be taxed at a higher rate because the company grossed more than $250,000 a year, Ohio business records show the company’s estimated total annual revenue as only $100,000. Actual taxable income would be even less than that.

In any event, Obama’s tax plan specifies that the higher rate would apply only to income above the $250,000 threshold. Assuming Wurzelbacher’s income as owner somehow hit $280,000 — the top end of his supposition of the company’s revenue — only the extra $30,000 would be taxed at a higher rate.

Analysts calculated that the extra tax would amount to $900, which would likely be more than offset by separate provisions of Obama’s plan: a 50 percent tax credit for health care and elimination of the capital gains tax for small businesses.

“I’d have to look at your particular business, but you might end up paying lower taxes under my plan and my approach than under John McCain’s,” Obama told Wurzelbacher during their exchange last weekend.

And Obama was right.

Incidentally, who are these fancy "analysts" that have to tell you that 3% of $30,000 is $900? I'd like to be an analyst, please!

 

[turbo]

I'm disturbed by the fact that Obama did not point that out. I hope Obama learns the basics before he takes office.

I, for one, am happy that Obama did not try to give the guy detailed tax advice. Obama is not a tax consultant or an accountant. He was right in dealing not with the specifics of Joe the plumber's specifics, but pointing out how his tax plans would effect people in certain tax brackets.

With the cameras rolling, Obama has to make his policy points, not try to educate an obviously clueless questioner about his tax situation. It's pretty silly, really. For a guy to worry about making over $250K a year after buying a business, he would have to be really wealthy to consider buying such a business. It would be tough to buy a going concern that generates that kind of revenue without investing a LOT of money. I don't think Joe's got the scratch - he has no business plan and no accountant/tax adviser.