The island is big and wooded in parts, How do they survive?

[Moonbear]

I agree with DaveC, first night, find shelter. We don't know what the climate is on this island. Are we going to be scorched by mid-afternoon sun, or half frozen at night? Either way, until we locate fresh water, we'll need a sheltered place to rest between excursions, and to regroup every so often to determine what progress is made and what still needs to be done.

Though, Wolram has informed us there's a water source about 4 hours away. So, let's get a good night's rest in our temporary shelters the first night and start out at dawn if we're going to move camp. That way we can get there before the afternoon heat hits us. I suggest we send two people ahead of the large group who will walk more quietly to scout out where the wildlife are before the large group scares them off. We can't rely on nuts and berries because we don't know what ones are safe to eat. Unless we come across familiar plants, better to stick with hunting and fishing.

If we're camping near a rare water source, we'll have to be careful of the boars, but that also means our food will come to us. We just need to fashion traps. One option is digging pits.

We may also be able to fashion some rope/twine from the plants or from our clothing, and bend one of those needles into a hook to try fishing. Alternatively, we might be able to make a net to fish along the surf. If we have to walk back 4 hours for fishing, then I'd recommend we assign two people that job (it'll take 2 to drag a net through the water), or we can rotate the task each day. Figure it will take another two hours to catch enough fish to bring back to camp, so they're going to be gone for 10 hours a day. We need to provide them with something to carry water with them. Hopefully we'll have good success with the hunting and won't need to send people on 10 hour trips for fish every day.

So, does anyone know anything about making traps? We might be able to funnel animals toward them if we can put obstructions on either side of a gradually narrowing path toward the traps, then work our way around to the far side and drive anything in that path forward and into the traps. We can't do this too often though, or the animals will catch on. Some days, we should leave the far side of the trap open so they run right through and don't get scared of taking that path of "escape" until we need that meat, and then close the traps.

On our first night, let's go around the group and find out what skills people have. Astronuc has already told us he's good with weilding the axe. As we build more permanent shelters, that'll come in handy. I'm decent at sewing, enough for whatever we're going to need to sew, and I can hold my own with the hand saw and hammer too. I'd rather not play with axes lest I add more to the casualty list, unless it's to use the blade to butcher the animals we catch, which I'm willing to do...I can handle all the butchering, fish cleaning, etc. Okay, who's next?

 

[Smurf]

Well, if it's a large island, then they should start a fire, and burn the whole forest down. That would send up a large cloud of smoke, which would be visible from the NOAA weather satellites; some geologists or whatever would fly into investigate. In the meantime, they could survive on the barbecued remains of whatever indigenous wildlife used to live there. Also, it would be easier to find any natural water source or spring if there were no trees to block the view.

This is actually an idea worth considering if the island is big enough, we may choose to sacrafice some of the wooded land to try to catch someone's attention. We'd have to control if of course, let's say we choose a spot surrounded by Rivers, Coast, Ridges, or just unwooded land that we could cover up with sand or something to make fire safe.

 

[Smurf]

I vouch for an anarchist system of government, probably based on the Zapatista's model of cousels and multiple leaders. This system would probably be most efficient in groups larger than 20 people but would work well none-the-less.

 

[Danger]

Okay, who's next?

I can make weapons out of almost anything, so perhaps I would best serve as armourer and hunter. Personally, I have no desire to take on a wild boar with an axe. Some high-power crossbows and/or longbows would be preferable. There should be enough straight pieces of wood available to fashion fire-hardened arrows and spears. Spear-throwers can triple (approx.) the range and accuracy, and are very simple to make. The strength of bows can be vastly increased with the addition of joints and 'springs' made from animal sinew or leather strips. Incidentally, when using such things, make sure that any hunters stay together and that nobody else gets within a kilometre of them. It's critical to know where such activity is going on so no one gets killed by a overshot.
There are dozens of kinds of effective traps, but should be specialized for what you want to catch. Something strong enough to capture or kill an adult boar would totally destroy a rabbit or not be triggered by it (except for pits, which have some drawbacks but are foolproof).
Don't waste a good needle trying to make a fishhook out of it. Unless you heat it just right, it'll snap when you try to bend it. Save it and any real thread for medical emergencies. Make bone hooks and fabric-sewing needles, since they don't need any particular sophistication. If the clothing is to be made of leather or furred hide, it's easier to sew by using an awl and inserting the lace after.
This part is just my personal approach to shelter, because I like fully enclosed places that are easily guarded. If any kind of cave is available, I'd heave a couple of hot, smoky torches in as far as possible to flush out whatever is living there and then build some sort of cover for the entrance to keep it out and maintain dryness. There should be a fire just inside the entrance at all times, with some sort of deflector to send the smoke outside.
Oh yeah... with a mixed population, any chemists in the crowd should see what they can do about finding some naturally-occurring spermicide.
As a last resort, for any additional insulation or bedding materials we can just shave Astronuc every couple of days.

 

[Astronuc]

Personally, I have no desire to take on a wild boar with an axe.

I'll take on the boars.

As a last resort, for any additional insulation or bedding materials we can just shave Astronuc every couple of days.

Oh, NO! Not the beard! Anything but the beard. You can shave my head instead.

Welcome aboard, mate! You to Moonbear! Did you manage to save your survival manual? I seem to remember a book from another thread.

Danger, about the comment preceding the one about my beard, I hope we're not stranded that long.

 

[wolram]

So, the first night was uncomfortable, "we relocated to the water source",
Found some rough bedding, and we arranged a guard rota, two people two Hr
shifts, and the rest of us slept.
In the morning we discuss our talents, astronuk is a good builder and boar
hunter, Danger is good at weaponry and hunting, Moonbear is a good cloths maker and butcher, I am a good scavenger, and quite inventive.
So i propose Astrnuk with four others find a site to build a shelter, big enough
for all, and reasonably close to water." we can all chip in on the heavy stuff".
Danger starts making weapons and traps with another four people.
Moonbear and four more find a way to clothe us all and set up some kind of kitchen
I and the remaining four start searching the area for anything edible or of some
use.
Suggestions ?

 

[Smurf]

I manage to construct a makeshift harmonica out of nothing but twigs, leaf stems and a coconut shell to provide soothing tunes to keep up morale.

 

[wolram]

I manage to construct a makeshift harmonica out of nothing but twigs, leaf stems and a coconut shell to provide soothing tunes to keep up morale.

Ok Smurf, you can allso be the head sanitation engineer.

 

[wolram]

Maybe the answer is, join OFER and you'll learn what to do in this situation!

All part of my master plan Lisa, by the way can you cook or sew or have some
other talent?

 

[Astronuc]

Ok Smurf, you can allso be the head sanitation engineer.

Good practical job for a civil engineer.

Did anyone save the Whisky? for medicinal purposes only, of course.

 

[wolram]

Did anyone save the Whisky? for medicinal purposes only, of course. [/QUOTE]

Sorry but some time when we are less busy a still would be a good
idea

Stop press, the scavengers have found a crashed WW11 bomber. it is badly
damaged though, and mostly in bits.

 

[Moonbear]

If the clothing is to be made of leather or furred hide...

Does anyone in our group know how to tan leather? I can skin the animals, but I don't know anything about how to process the hides so they don't just rot. Optimally, if we can tan the hides, we could use them as waterproof tents or roofs for lean-to shelters in case there's no natural formations to use as shelter (we can't assume there will be caves or that they would be deep enough or not flooded at every high tide, or anywhere near our water source).

 

[Astronuc]

Did anyone save the Whisky? for medicinal purposes only, of course.

Sorry but some time when we are less busy a still would be a good
idea

Stop press, the scavengers have found a crashed WW11 bomber. it is badly
damaged though, and mostly in bits.

Is the plane useful for a shelter, and how close to the water supply? The skin can be polished for reflectors.

As for the Whisky - Nuts! The horror of it all.

Yes - priority is a still - made from aircraft parts. Someone has to blow out the hydraulic lines.

Most bombers had radial engines. Which kind of bomber is it? Pacific could mean a B-29.

 

[brewnog]

Does anyone in our group know how to tan leather? I can skin the animals, but I don't know anything about how to process the hides so they don't just rot. Optimally, if we can tan the hides, we could use them as waterproof tents or roofs for lean-to shelters in case there's no natural formations to use as shelter (we can't assume there will be caves or that they would be deep enough or not flooded at every high tide, or anywhere near our water source).

If you can do the skinning, I can do the tanning. I tried to skin a rabbit once, found it very difficult. I know how to skin a deer properly, but I'm sure it might be more tricky in real life.

Before tanning, we can keep hides fresh by salting them, until we have enough fresh water to clean them. We then soak the hides in fresh water for a couple of days to clean them of the bulk of the fat, and any traces of salt. Ideally, we'd then soak them in a lime solution for a few days, but if this isn't feasible we can remove the hair and epidermis by scraping the hide. We then remove the fat by scraping it off, and slice the leather according to what we want to make (this is the tricky part, - you "shave" it, to get it to the desired thickness). To tan the leather, we soak it in tannins which we've extracted from vegetable matter, I'm sure Moonbear can get this arranged. Again, it's soaked for a few days, before being dried, and finished by rubbing in fish oil, or tallow to provide a nice, waterproof finish, and to seal the leather.

Hey presto, clothes!

 

[Moonbear]

Stop press, the scavengers have found a crashed WW11 bomber. it is badly
damaged though, and mostly in bits.

Are there any sections of the fuselage that are sufficiently intact to provide a roof over our heads? It would save a lot of labor and time if we can just sleep under a big hunk of metal.

No medicinal whiskey? DARN! Whisky has SOOOO many uses! With parts from that bomber, we probably can build a halfway decent still though, and there really are useful purposes for alcohol, including disinfecting wounds and to use as a lamp or burner inside our shelter if our fire gets rained on. Of the group we have so far, I think Danger, brewnog, Astronuc and Wolram are the team best capable of sorting through the wreckage to determine what's useable and what can be built from the parts. Oh, and is there a toolkit aboard the plane? We may be able to supplement our tools. A few shards of broken glass would be much appreciated in our kitchen/butcher shop. Any weapons aboard that plane that can be restored to working condition? If there are, let's not waste what small amount of ammo we may have there on hunting unless Danger's bows and arrows and traps don't work, it's better to save those in case of a boar attack where we need stopping power fast!

 

[Moonbear]

If you can do the skinning, I can do the tanning. I tried to skin a rabbit once, found it very difficult. I know how to skin a deer properly, but I'm sure it might be more tricky in real life.

Deer should be easier than rabbit since rabbits have much thinner skin. I can't promise perfection, but we're not planning on using them for decoration, so if I cut through in a place or two, I'm sure we could sew it back together or use that one for cutting into smaller strips for ties and such. With more practice, I'll get better at it.

Okay, though, if I need to start extracting tannins from vegetation, I'm going to need some sort of kettle I can boil water in over the fire, and something to pick up the kettle with (we'll also need a container that we can pour this stuff into after it's boiled...I'll need that kettle for cooking your soup too). Anything in that plane wreckage that looks kettle-like? Maybe a metal helmet? I'd prefer something larger, or you're all going to have to eat your soup in shifts, but I'll make do with whatever you can provide me.

 

[brewnog]

Indeed, regarding the bomber there are lots of treasure items we'd look for.

Fuel, and explosives need to be handled and stored carefully, but are potentially very useful. Ammo would probably be more useful to us as a means of starting fire, and signalling, than as weapons. As Moonbear said, tools and glass would be looked out for.

Personally, I'd like to polish up some of the sheet metal to make signalling devices, but I'd also like to use some of it to make some small sailing vessels which would be ideal for fishing.

And rip out all the hydraulic piping, and make a massive still, to distill, urrrm, seawater! *looks around, then fills up still with the secret stash of grain alcohol which me and Astro have been brewing since we arrived!*

 

[wolram]

Okay, though, if I need to start extracting tannins from vegetation, I'm going to need some sort of kettle I can boil water in over the fire, and something to pick up the kettle with (we'll also need a container that we can pour this stuff into after it's boiled...I'll need that kettle for cooking your soup too). Anything in that plane wreckage that looks kettle-like? Maybe a metal helmet? I'd prefer something larger, or you're all going to have to eat your soup in shifts, but I'll make do with whatever you can provide me.

Sorry everyone, but the biggest pieces of AP are about two meters, lots of
Ally though, to make pots etc out of, lots of pexi glass, copper wire, it looks
like they jettisoned any thing not bolted down, the engines have all sorts of
pipe work and i have found some live ammo.

 

[brewnog]

lots of Ally though, the engines have all sorts of pipe work

So Integral can have his GT motorbike after all?

 

[Astronuc]

Ally though, to make pots etc out of, lots of pexi glass, copper wire, it looks
like they jettisoned any thing not bolted down, the engines have all sorts of
pipe work and i have found some live ammo.

My guess, being in the pacific and out on an island, that it was a 4 engine bomber, probably being a B-29 (longest range back then), or perhaps a B-17.

Fuel and hydraulic lines could be used. Both types had radial engines.

B-29 engines:

Wright Aeronautical Corporation. R-3350 Duplex Cyclone engine - twin row, supercharged, air-cooled, radial engine with 18 cylinders and a displacement of 3,350 cubic inches. Two General Electric B-11 superchargers, one on each side of the nacelle.
2,200 hp R-3350-13 17ft 0" (5.18m) three-blade propellers 3 XB-29s
2,200 hp R-3350-21 17ft 0" (5.18m) three-blade propellers 14 service-test YB-29s
2,200 hp R-3350-23 16ft 7" (5.05m) four-blade Hamilton Standard constant-speed, full feathering propellers B-29s
R-3350-41; R-3350-57; R-3350-57A

R-3350-57 Specs
Type: Air-cooled, 18-cylinder twin-row radial engine
Country/Date: U.S.A., 1942
Rating: 2,200 hp @ 2800 rpm
Displacement: 3,350 cu. in.
Weight: 2,779 lbs.
Bore & Stroke: 6.125" & 6.3"

The immensely powerful Wright R-3350 was chosen as the powerplant for the B-29. Four of these massive engines provided the power to move each B-29. Problems with overheating were legendary but were overcome with numerous field modifications and changes in engine use. Altogether the R-3350 went through tens of thousands of design changes during its early development. Pilots learned to use as much of the runway as possible and build up speed to help cool the engines before slowing climbing for altitude.

Work on the engine began in January 1936 and the first one ran in May 1937. It was similar in design to the company's R-2600 14-cylinder radial, sharing the same bore and stroke but adding two more cylinders per row for additional displacement. A three-piece forged aluminum (later changed to steel) crankcase, cast heads and a magnesium supercharger case to reduce weight. Downdraft carburetion on early engines yielded mixture inconsistencies between the front and rear cylinder rows, which was solved on later models by changing to a direct fuel injection system.

Wright Aeronautical built a new facility at Woodbridge, NJ for the R-3350 and shifted production at their Cincinnati plant exclusively to the Wright engine. Total output between these two plants approached 13,800. Chrysler's Dodge Chicago Division, supplied over 18,400 engines from their Chicago, IL location. As design problems were overcome the R-3350 saw its time between overhauls increase from 100 to 400 hours by the end of the war.

Almost all of the engine nacelles, as big as a fighter fuselage, were made by the Fisher Body division of General Motors. Cleveland facility.

from
http://www.ww2guide.com/b29ops.shtml

 

[wolram]

My guess, being in the pacific and out on an island, that it was a 4 engine bomber, probably being a B-29 (longest range back then), or perhaps a B-17.

Fuel and hydraulic lines could be used. Both radial engines.

Im afraid the engines are badly damaged, but there is what looks like an
auxiliary generator that looks salvageable.

 

[Astronuc]

Im afraid the engines are badly damaged, but there is what looks like an auxiliary generator that looks salvageable.

Cool - a potential power source. But any fuel?

 

[Astronuc]

*looks around, then fills up still with the secret stash of grain alcohol which me and Astro have been brewing since we arrived!*

*Whispers to brewnog - Shhhhh!* Thinks - High Octane.

I hope some our colleagues now appreciate what real engineers can do!

 

[wolram]

Cool - a potential power source. But any fuel?

Sorry no fuel, and its four stroke coil ignition.

 

[Astronuc]

Sorry no fuel, and its four stroke coil ignition.

Not to worry, brewnog and I are working on that matter.

Hopefully, he and I will be testing shortly.

Now I understand the origin of 'brewnog'.

 

[Moonbear]

Not to worry, brewnog and I are working on that matter.

Hopefully, he and I will be testing shortly.

Now I understand the origin of 'brewnog'.

I don't suppose there are enough parts to rig up any sort of turbine to generate electricity from those propellers, is there?

Now, if someone handy with that axe can carve a bowl shape from a log around here, I can use that as a mold to start hammering sheets of metal into cookware. Let's just first make sure we think through any other uses for it and only allocate what we can afford to spare as cookware (I definitely have to have one sheet for that purpose, eating is a priority, but more than that will be more for convenience with any surplus materials, so should be put to other uses first if needed). Anyone good at whittling? If so, grab that hunting knife; I need a big wooden spoon, make it with a deep bowl so we can scoop up soup with it...if there's time to make more than one, we won't have to pass around one spoon for everyone to share, but again, one will do for now.

 

[Danger]

I have to say, this is my absolute favourite thread ever! Thanks, Wooly!
There's a reasonable possibility that one working engine can be assembled out of 4 non-working ones. Brewnog and Astro are probably most knowledgeable about how to make replacement seals, because for sure the originals will be shot. Everything would have to be disassembled, cleaned, checked for damage, and catalogued. Those Wright motors will run on alcohol, so fuel won't be a problem once the still is going. Fish oil (or Belga if one strays by) is adequate for lubrication over short runs. It can also be used for hydraulic fluid. Although the plane will never fly, the motor could get some decent speed out of a boat. It should just be used supplementally, though. The batteries would have to be reconditioned and recharged, which could be a problem. The generators could be pedal powered for recharging, but I don't know where we'd find acid. On the other hand, I guess we could just feed the generator directly to the starter circuit.
WWII military ammo should still be in perfectly acceptable condition, although there might be some surface corrosion to polish off for proper feeding. Aircraft machine guns contain something like 20% (?) tracer rounds, which should be kept for use as flares when a ship or plane is near. The rest can be used for base defense against whatever, but only as an adjunct to proper physical barriers. As Brewski said, a cartridge can make a mighty fine fire-starter if we lose the ones that are already burning. Gunpowder also makes a reasonable stiptic in an emergency.
Moonbear, probably no need to make your own pots, etc.. The engine oil sumps, hydraulic reservoirs, etc.. should suffice for that. As for propellor windmills, it's worth a try. They probably wouldn't be very effective, but better than nothing. If we polish the blades, they'll also be a constant signalling device. Since they're constant-speed, we can ressurect the pitch-controls to maximize efficiency. If there's enough wind, they can also be used to run the hydraulic pumps or even one of the superchargers for a compressed air source.
If there are bombs on board the plane, keep the hell away from them! Even if the primary explosive is still stable, there's absolutely no way to know what condition the fuses are in. For this reason alone, I would make sure that the camp is a right fair distance away from the wreckage. It would also make scavenging a lot trickier.

 

[Danger]

Forgot to mention:
There's enough material in one of those birds to build a fairly mechanized society, such as wheels, axles, control cables, pulleys, etc. to build winches, grindstones, power drills, alcohol fuelled stoves; electric motors for whatever purposes (starters, trim servos, etc.), and one mustn't forget the ever popular radio it there's one still in it. Also spring steel for use in bows, swords, etc..

 

[brewnog]

Not to worry, brewnog and I are working on that matter.
Hopefully, he and I will be testing shortly.
Now I understand the origin of 'brewnog'.

Haha, ohhh yes!

I really don't think we're going to have much need for electricity in the near future. As time goes on, I reckon the only electricity we need is for a radio, if there's any chance of escape (or entertainment!). The fuel would otherwise be best suited for other means, namely for warmth and light. I suppose if we're there for years and years, we could make some kind of machine shop, using the generator to power some useful stuff like water pumps, bellows, maybe even a rudimentary forge if we were planning (hoping?) to stay there for a while. Electricity is over-rated, I'm sure Wolram would be happy to be stranded out here with us.

If we have a plane to rip up, making tools and utensils will not be a problem. Sheet aluminium/steel is piss easy to work with, we can make pretty much anything we need. I, for one, will definitely be making canoes from the engine shrouds.

 

[Moonbear]

Moonbear, probably no need to make your own pots, etc.. The engine oil sumps, hydraulic reservoirs, etc.. should suffice for that.

Well, we'll have to see if I can get the oil or hydraulic fluids cleaned out of them without the aid of any detergents to make them safe to eat from. We don't want to poison the whole camp with hydraulic fluid in our soup. I'll drag them down to the beach and see if I can scrub them with sand. How heavy are those things? Am I going to need help lifting?

Good idea about polishing the propellers and using those as a signal. Doubly good if they can provide enough power to run a generator, but as a signal, they'll be much better than just flat metal...nobody has to stand out trying to wave them to catch the sun's reflection if we hear any planes go by.

 

[brewnog]

As an aside, I might sack off the engineering side of the shipwreck party and play in the kitchens every once in a while. I made some cracking nettle soup today, using only stuff I found in my garden!

 

[Astronuc]

I think whatever the still makes, will probably be good solvent, as well as fuel.

Presumably, at some point, once the captain of the ship fails to report in on schedule, a search and rescue will be initiated.

We'll have to be careful with the ammo.

Good thing Danger's here. We'll have to check out the oil sumps and hyrdraulic reservoirs. Hopefully there are some spanners and screwdrivers around.

Hopefully, no UXB's but if they are not on the plane, one of more could be nearby. The fuzes could be very sensitive.

 

[BicycleTree]

I agree with DaveC, first night, find shelter. We don't know what the climate is on this island. Are we going to be scorched by mid-afternoon sun, or half frozen at night? Either way, until we locate fresh water, we'll need a sheltered place to rest between excursions, and to regroup every so often to determine what progress is made and what still needs to be done.

Fresh water is most important. Have you ever gone a day, night, and long morning without drinking anything?

You're a group, anyway, so if it gets cold you just huddle together.

 

[Danger]

Well, we'll have to see if I can get the oil or hydraulic fluids cleaned out of them without the aid of any detergents to make them safe to eat from. We don't want to poison the whole camp with hydraulic fluid in our soup. I'll drag them down to the beach and see if I can scrub them with sand.

Probably be easier to burn them out, chip off any hardened residue, and save the sand scrub for last.

How heavy are those things? Am I going to need help lifting?

I really don't know, but probably at least 50 kgs.

Good thing Danger's here. We'll have to check out the oil sumps and hyrdraulic reservoirs. Hopefully there are some spanners and screwdrivers around.

I've PM'd FredGarvin and told him to get his ass over here, but he's off-line so it might be a while. He'll know more about those engines than the rest of us put together. Using the backside of your axe as a hammer, and getting a good hot fire going, I'm sure that we can forge whatever simple tools we need. Luckily, they didn't use weird crap like Torx screws or shear-bolts back then.

Brewnog's mention of electricity ticked another thing over in my mind. Not only are there interior and panel lights available for our domestic use; those landing lights and strobes will make more fine signalling devices.

 

[brewnog]

Brewnog's mention of electricity ticked another thing over in my mind. Not only are there interior and panel lights available for our domestic use; those landing lights and strobes will make more fine signalling devices.

Or, a bloody good beach party...

Sorry, but I've just realized something, and it seems to have been lost on some of you. 20 of us, all integlligent, resourceful, hard-working, motivated lads and ladesses have been put on a desert island, with enough natural resources to be able to build a kickarse camp, as well as a few dozen tonnes of bomber with which we can make some useful stuff, with the chance of having some luxuries (showers, parties, beach BBQs, fresh meat), in some beautiful idyllic surroundings, and you're thinking of how to get off this island? I reckon we want to start thinking about camouflage so that nobody else finds us!