What are the potential solutions for the EU refugee crisis?

[William White]

godwins law - you lose.
They are fleeing those who are using Islam as a tool for reasons that are much more basic human nature than religious belief.

Nice wishy washy excuse.

Yeah, the people fleeing are muslim - but aint it a surprise they want to go to secular countries. They are not banging on the door of Iran and Saudi Arabia. They are not heading east in Pakistan.

What happened - and what is happening - is people bending over backwards not to call out the elephant in the room - islam - and getting involved in mental gymnastics to try and think of a way of framing the problem without mentioning the problem.

 

[HossamCFD]

so is looking after the poor, and supposedly not killing each other.

How many muslims have died at the hands of other muslims in the middle east in the past couple of years?

Not sure how's that relevant to anything I said. My comment was a reply to a poster who expressed surprise that muslims perform pilgrimage even though 'Arabs don't like each other'. I was explaining that the two things aren't related.

Sure, the tiny states of Lebannon are flooded with refugees - who'd a thunk it - them being on the doorstep and all that. The rich arab states should be helping ALL of the refugess as a first safe haven. And doing EVERYTHING they can to end the trouble. But they will not.

Yes they should. And the fact they are not doing that is abhorrent. It is still helpful though to not mix the rich gulf states with entire muslim population or even Syria's Arabic neighbours.

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

Just a reminder to everyone to keep on topic and civil.

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

What happened - and what is happening - is people bending over backwards not to call out the elephant in the room - islam - and getting involved in mental gymnastics to try and think of a way of framing the problem without mentioning the problem.

And the west wonders why we are called arrogant. Indonesia is home to the largest population of Muslims. They are having the same problems right? What's happening in the middle east is not just religious, but cultural, political, economic and some human nature.

 

[HossamCFD]

What happened - and what is happening - is people bending over backwards not to call out the elephant in the room - islam - and getting involved in mental gymnastics to try and think of a way of framing the problem without mentioning the problem.

I've hardly seen any "bending over backwards". Pretty much every post in this thread does mention Islam and muslims. If you were speaking about politicians, I don't think the Hungarian PM was being subtle about it:
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/09/refugees-hungary-train-station-150903064140564.html
Also Slovakia decided to only accept Christian refugees
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-33986738

The notion that everyone is shying from mentioning Islam and muslims is pretty much an illusion IMO.

 

[gfd43tg]

I wonder why these refugees can't go to rich Arabic nations such as Qatar, UAE, Saudi Arabia, etc. Even they won't take in fellow Muslim refugees, why should the west?

 

[HossamCFD]

Even they won't take in fellow Muslim refugees, why should the west?

Simple! Because the west cares about human rights way more than these countries. I don't think even the strongest critic of the west would hold it to the same standards as Saudi Arabia.

 

[Astronuc]

In rich Gulf Arab states, some feel shamed by refugee response
http://news.yahoo.com/rich-gulf-arab-states-feel-shamed-refugee-response-121611584.html

Some are addressing the matter in the ME.

Sultan Sooud al Qassemi, a commentator in the United Arab Emirates, said he suspected Gulf States were wary of allowing in large numbers of politically vocal Arabs who might somehow influence a traditionally passive society. But he said Gulf states should open their doors to the refugees.

I wonder why these refugees can't go to rich Arabic nations such as Qatar, UAE, Saudi Arabia, etc. Even they won't take in fellow Muslim refugees, why should the west?

I wonder if the same question was asked about the British/English concerning the Irish during the Great Famine of 1845 and 1852.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Famine_(Ireland)

The evolution and structure of the Middle East (and North Africa) is in part of legacy of the British Empire and European colonialism.

I'm not sure about muslim factions killing one another for centuries, particular during the Ottoman Empire, but perhaps there were conflicts much the same way European states went at each other over the centuries. But that is another topic.

The matter at hand is the refugees fleeing autocratic regimes like those of Assad in Syria and brutal groups like Daesh. Neither set reflects the tenets of Islam.

 

[OmCheeto]

2 years ago Astronuc created a thread concerning EU refugee crisis but it does not seem attract much attention.
...

A lack of response, doesn't necessarily mean that we didn't all look at it.
It's been my experience, that no one likes the idea of a flood of disgruntled "auslanders", as they think differently, and might want to turn our paradise, into their former paradise, which now, for some strange reason, is no longer a paradise.

Although a left wing liberal idiot, I'm not averse to changing my mind; "You've made your bed, you can sleep in it."

*auslander: Californians...
And sometimes closer: Molallainians...

I think Molallainians should be forced to carry green cards, and wear big M's on their clothing when entering Portlandia.
Animals.
Like bears in he woods...

Molalla is a town about 30 miles from where I live.

ps. And I'm not averse to un-friending family on Facebook either. I un-friended my own sister, on her birthday. She lives in Texas, and thinks alien thoughts.

 

[gfd43tg]

So much for "Muslim brotherhood"

It's interesting how these middle eastern people hate the west, but as soon as s**t hits the fan in their country, they come to us in droves to be saved.

Even worse, as soon as they get to the west and are all settled in, they start complaining and revert to hating the west again. How nice of them!

 

[Astronuc]

MONTEVIDEO, Uruguay (AP) — The United Nations' refugee commission expressed gratitude Wednesday that Uruguay is preparing to provide a new home for 100 children orphaned by Syria's civil war.

Senior regional UNHCR official Michelle Alfaro said there are more than 2 million Syrian refugees in all, and Turkey, Lebanon and Jordan can't handle them all, so the agency hopes to relocate 30,000 this year. Germany took 5,000 Syrian refugees last year and has agreed to take another 5,000 this year. Brazil has granted humanitarian visas to 2,000.

http://news.yahoo.com/un-applauds-uruguays-plan-syrian-refugees-205857423.html

The World's Most Humble President Just Opened His House to 100 Syrian Refugee Children
http://mic.com/articles/89809/the-w...ened-his-house-to-100-syrian-refugee-childrenSomeone's opinion - The Refugee Crisis Isn’t a ‘European Problem’
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/06/o...ugee-crisis-isnt-a-european-problem.html?_r=0

 

[HossamCFD]

these middle eastern people hate the west... How nice of them!

How very nice of you to generalise and judge an entire population!

 

[OmCheeto]

I wonder what Native Americans think of this.
Although my previous post may strike people as an attempt at being "funny", I can assure you, it was not.
This is a complex problem, and I doubt few are willing to spend the time to solve humanity's perpetual problem, all by themselves.

But that never stops me, so I googled around a bit this morning, and found the following:

Coming to America: the 5 biggest refugee groups of the last 20 years [Al Jazeera]
October 14, 2013
Out of the more than 2 million Syrian refugees, the United States has only taken in 90 since the country’s civil war began. But this statistic belies America’s generous record when it comes to refugees. Of the 22 developed countries that resettle the persecuted, the U.S. accepts more than all the others combined.
...

A tad old, but still an interesting statistic.

My previous post was somewhat motivated by my curiosity of the land mass of the USA, compared to the region in question:

I'm not very good with computers any more, so you just have to imagine the borders of the USA being overlaid upon the region in question. But I can guarantee, they are to scale.

So, hmmm..., what's my point so far? I think it's that the Americas haven't had such a long time to develop long standing neighborly animosities, so we're not used to this.

And why did I mention Native Americans?
Wiki has a list of refugees, by country, which you can sort by native:refugee ratio.
Jordan wins, at 3:1 (native:refugee)
Lebanon is #2, at 4:1
Syria is #3, 17:1 (Why the hell are people fleeing to Syria? Maybe they are old refugees? hmmmm...)
Anyways, the world has an average of 699:1
The USA has a ratio of 1215:1

The ratio of Native Americans to auslanders is 1:58. [ref: wiki and the 2010 USA census]
And that, is why I try and stay on their good side.

ps. Is it safe to assume that this thread was motivated by the image of Aylan Kurdi? It came across on one of my Facebook subscriptions. I found it odd, that none of my Facebook friends mentioned it. Well, not that odd. I didn't mention it either.

.

 

[Astronuc]

Brussels (AFP) - Germany and France would take nearly half of the 120,000 refugees to be relocated from frontline states under a plan by European Commission chief Jean-Claude Juncker, a European source said Monday.

According to Juncker's proposal for mandatory quotas for EU states which is set to be unveiled Wednesday, Germany would take 31,443 and France 24,031, to relieve the burden on Greece, Italy and Hungary, the source told AFP.

Spain would take 14,931 under the plan, the source said.

http://news.yahoo.com/germany-31-000-refugees-france-24-000-under-091323012.html

 

[blue_leaf77]

The info that has been going around the internet says that those rich middle east countries are considering the possibility of terrorist attack, the ISIS group technically has zero difficulty in smuggling some of their members among the refugees.

 

[OmCheeto]

...
Jordan wins, at 3:1 (native:refugee)
...

Amazing aerial view of a refugee camp in Jordan. (Too big for PF: 3000 x 1977)

Description embedded in the photo:

This aerial view shows the Zaatari refugee camp on Thursday, July 18, 2013 near the Jordanian city of Mafraq, some 8 kilometers (5 miles) from the Jordan-Syria border. Visiting the Zaatari refugee camp in northern Jordan, Kerry met six representatives of its 115,000 population, all of whom appealed to him to create no-fly zones and set up humanitarian safe havens inside Syria. The Obama administration has boosted assistance to the Syrian opposition but has noted grave complications and astronomic costs in enforcing no-fly zones or protecting the opposition on Syrian soil. (AP Photo/Mandel Ngan, Pool) AP10ThingsToSee

The total number of Syrian refugees is estimated to be around 4 million, or the equivalent of 35 of these camps.

 

[HossamCFD]

Jordan wins, at 3:1 (native:refugee)

The reason why Jordan tops the list is because of Palestinian not Syrian refugees. This can be a bit misleading since most "Palestinian refugees" in Jordan have full citizenship. The reason why they keep the refugee status (and pass it down two or three generations) has to do with the politics of the Arab-Israeli conflict and the so-called "right of return".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_refugee#Jordan

Syria is #3, 17:1 (Why the hell are people fleeing to Syria? Maybe they are old refugees? hmmmm...)

Most are Iraqi and Palestinian refugees. With the caveat that many Palestinian refugees are second and third generation (but in this case they don't hold citizenship like those in Jordan).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refugees_of_Iraq#Syria
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_refugee#Syria

 

[OmCheeto]

The reason why Jordan tops the list is because of Palestinian not Syrian refugees. This can be a bit misleading since most "Palestinian refugees" in Jordan have full citizenship. The reason why they keep the refugee status (and pass it down two or three generations) has to do with the politics of the Arab-Israeli conflict and the so-called "right of return".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_refugee#JordanMost are Iraqi and Palestinian refugees. With the caveat that many Palestinian refugees are second and third generation (but in this case they don't hold citizenship like those in Jordan).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refugees_of_Iraq#Syria
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_refugee#Syria

Good grief! No wonder no one commented on Astronuc's original thread.
What a mess.
hmmm...
Going back to Czcibor's original graphy link:

...One in every 122 people in the world is currently either a refugee, internally displaced or seeking asylum because the "world is a mess", according to the head of the UN’s refugee agency.
...

I'm glad I'm not the only one who had this thought.
hmmm... Since the world's population is 7 billion, a 1:122 ratio means that 57,000,000 people hold this "mess" status.
So this thread topic is simply the tip of an iceberg.

 

[mheslep]

And the west wonders why we are called arrogant.

There you are doing the same thing as WW to whom you responded: making an supported generalization from a specific case or aspect.

 

[Czcibor]

i have no idea what you are trying to say

That if contemporary elites are implementing a plan that looks like a total disaster in long run, then replacing them by a brighter ones seem reasonable and pan-European nationalism seems to look like a practical ideology.

Also Slovakia decided to only accept Christian refugees
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-33986738

The notion that everyone is shying from mentioning Islam and muslims is pretty much an illusion IMO.

Poland recently accepted voluntarily 50 families with a help of an NGO - Christian ones.

 

[Czcibor]

EDIT: There is a news that one of family of Syrian refugees in Poland silently escaped to Germany during night. On internet there is medium sized outrage about rejecting our hospitality. Honestly speaking I don't mind. Germany just signed a shady deal with Russia concerning gas, so I hope that they would receive due level of EU-solidarity from Eastern Europe...

 

[Astronuc]

The migrant crisis explained - Katie Couric
https://www.yahoo.com/katiecouric/n...risis-explained-millions-of-128873741918.html

People are leaving countries like Afghanistan, Iraq, Nigeria, Kosovo, Eritrea and especially Syria. Because of nearly five years of civil war and the chaos of ISIS, some almost 12 million Syrians have been displaced. About 4 million of them have left the country, looking to Turkey, Lebanon, Jordan and now countries in Europe for shelter.

http://news.yahoo.com/asylum-in-eur...d-refugees-and-what-s-at-stake-183639355.html (also shows Couric's video)

The numbers are striking

The http://www.syriahr.com/en/2015/08/more-than-330000-people-die-while-about-13000000-wounded-and-displaced-since-the-beginning-of-syrian-revolution/ says that about 330,000 people have died since the brutal Syrian civil war began in March 2011.

An estimated 12.2 million people need humanitarian assistance in Syria, 7.6 million have been displaced internally, and four million have fled the country altogether, according to the United States Agency for International Development.

The United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR) says that among the 4,088,099 registered Syrian refugees who have left for neighboring countries, 1,938,999 settled in Turkey, 1,113,941 are in Lebanon, 629,266 are in Jordan and 249,463 are in Iraq. There are also 132,375 in Egypt and 24,055 in other North African countries.

So far this year, more than 300,000 refugees and migrants have sailed across the Mediterranean Sea: nearly 200,000 landing in Greece and 110,000 in Italy, according to UNHCR. This is a drastic increase over the 219,000 people who crossed the Mediterranean for the whole of last year.

The UN Human Rights Council has cited Eritrea, a northeast African country bordered by Sudan in the west, for “systematic, widespread and gross human rights violations.”

Eritrea is a mess - https://www.hrw.org/africa/Eritrea
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-13349078

A former Italian colony, Eritrea was occupied by the British in 1941. In 1952 the United Nations resolved to establish it as an autonomous entity federated with Ethiopia as a compromise between Ethiopian claims for sovereignty and Eritrean aspirations for independence. However, 10 years later the Ethiopian emperor, Haile Selassie, decided to annex it, triggering a 32-year armed struggle.

http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2014/04/21/the-anchor

 

[mheslep]

The latter countries in Couric's list show the proposed explanation is only half the story. Eritrea, Sudan, Kosovo and the like have had violent border wars and civil wars on and off for decades. The difference now is the i) EU's inability to control its borders, starting with the islands of the hobbled Greek government, ii) EU inability and US unwillingness to act sufficiently via the like of multinational military action.

 

[Astronuc]

Germany to temporarily reintroduce border controls: newspaper
http://news.yahoo.com/germany-temporarily-reintroduce-border-control-newspaper-143419657.html

BERLIN (Reuters) - The German government will temporarily reintroduce border controls in response to the refugee crisis - a move that would breach the European Union's open-borders Schengen agreement - German newspaper Bild said on Sunday.

 

[Czcibor]

Germany to temporarily reintroduce border controls: newspaper
http://news.yahoo.com/germany-temporarily-reintroduce-border-control-newspaper-143419657.html

The article that you quoted is a bit misleading. Under Schengen Zone rules, any member state is allowed to do so as an emergency and temporary solution. This law was already invoked a few times as a way to keep hooligans out from some events (football fans, left wing rioters, etc). So so far it's not a breach and more an usage of emergency powers, towards which Germans are fully entitled.

 

[Astronuc]

The article that you quoted is a bit misleading. Under Schengen Zone rules, any member state is allowed to do so as an emergency and temporary solution. This law was already invoked a few times as a way to keep hooligans out from some events (football fans, left wing rioters, etc). So so far it's not a breach and more an usage of emergency powers, towards which Germans are fully entitled.

Thank you for the clarification. I'm not versed in the Schengen agreement, and I suspect most US journalists are not either. The article came from Reuters, but not sure if it originated in US, UK or EU state.

 

[Czcibor]

Thank you for the clarification. I'm not versed in the Schengen agreement, and I suspect most US journalists are not either. The article came from Reuters, but not sure if it originated in US, UK or EU state.

Now, when I think about it, I'm not sure how the treaty is exactly worded and to what extend this policy is officially sanctioned to which simply tolerated. There is also another nuance that presumably Americans don't realize - Schengen Zone is something different than EU. There are quite a few EU countries that are not part Schengen treaty (ex. UK, Ireland, Romania) and some non EU countries belong to Schengeg (ex. Switzerland, Norway).

 

[Vanadium 50]

Countries are allowed to exceptionally temporarily reinstate border controls.

By EU law, they have to accept refugees. When this law was passed, they were thinking a few hundred here, a few thousand there. In 2014, there were a quarter million. This was reached by mid-2015, and now the rate exceeds 100,000 per month. The question is how many can be absorbed? A million? Ten million? There are 2 million refugees in Turkey now, 2 million in other countries, and 6 million inside Syria.

The US has offered to take 10,000. That solves 0.1% of the problem.

 

[mheslep]

The US has offered to take 10,000. That solves 0.1% of the problem.

There's a good argument that taking 10,000,000 in the U.S. would also solve something like 0.1% of the problem.

 

[Astronuc]

Border-free Europe unravels as migrant crisis hits record day
http://news.yahoo.com/border-free-europe-unravels-migrant-crisis-125415743.html

Germany's surprise decision to restore border controls on Sunday had a swift domino effect, prompting neighbors to impose checks at their own frontiers as thousands of refugees pressed north and west across the continent while Hungary sealed the main informal border crossing point into the European Union.

A majority of EU interior ministers, meeting in Brussels, agreed in principle to share out 120,000 asylum seekers on top of some 40,000 distributed on a voluntary basis so far, EU president Luxembourg said. But details of the deal, to be formalized on Oct. 8, were vague with several ex-Communist central European states still rejecting mandatory quotas.

As the shockwaves rippled across Europe, Slovakia said it would impose controls on its borders with Hungary and Austria. The Netherlands announced it would make spot checks at its borders. Other EU states from Sweden to Poland said they were monitoring the situation to decide whether controls were needed.

I remember driving through Europe and not stopping at borders, probably about the time that Schengen was being discussed.

On the other hand, I had a trip to Germany, followed by visit to France. The Germans told me I didn't need a visa, so they didn't issue one. But when I got to France, I was told I needed a visa. According to the Schengen rules as I understood them, if I entered through one Schengen state, I would be given access to other Schengen states with a requisite visa. Well it didn't go that way. I found out that Australia didn't have reciprocity with France or Spain, so they required visas, although German and other Schengen states did not.

 

[Vanadium 50]

Things are less complicated now. Or at least differently complicated. The visa rules are now harmonized in the Schengen zone, so Australians no longer need visas for short term stays. ("Annex 2" is the term) But anything involving long-term residency is still kind of a mess. And that includes the refugees.

 

[Astronuc]

http://news.yahoo.com/syrian-refugee-tripped-camerawoman-arrive-spain-soccer-coach-174503268--abc-news-topstories.html#

The Syrian refugee who was tripped while holding his child by a Hungarian camerawoman has moved to Spain after a soccer coaching school offered to help his family rebuild their lives.

Osama Abdul Mohsen, and his 7-year-old son Zaid, were emotional when they were greeted at Atocha train station in Madrid by staff from the soccer school.

"I love you, I love Madrid, I love Spain, all of Spain, thank you for all (for everything). This (is) very, very important for my life,” he said, speaking to reporters on the platform.

I wish him and his son well. Peace be upon him and the hundred's of thousands of refugees. May they find safe homes.

Meanwhile in the US - What Life Is Like for Syrian Family Seeking Refuge in Kentucky
https://www.yahoo.com/parenting/what-life-is-like-for-syrian-family-seeking-refuge-129229916387.html

 

[Astronuc]

In Europe, Iraqis and Syrians escape Islamists' harsh rule
http://news.yahoo.com/europe-iraqis-syrians-escape-islamists-harsh-rule-135553860.html

MYTILENE, Greece (AP) — Among the tens of thousands fleeing war and despair in the Middle East, one group feels a special relief in reaching Europe: those who have escaped areas ruled by Islamic State extremists and the harsh scrutiny of their religious police.

These refugees tell of how a Western-style haircut, a pair of jeans or a simple interaction with the opposite sex can lead to punishment by the Hisba, the branch of enforcers carrying out a brutal interpretation of Islamic Shariah law.

 

[Vanadium 50]

one group feels a special relief in reaching Europe: those who have escaped areas ruled by Islamic State extremists and the harsh scrutiny of their religious police.

The problem - or at least one problem - is just because they think the ISIL is too strict, does not mean that they welcome western values. There may well be those who feel beheading rape victims is just too cruel - they should only be stoned. Such people will not integrate well into European society.

 

[Astronuc]

European nations shift to working together on migrant crisis
http://news.yahoo.com/concessions-europes-leaders-migrant-numbers-grow-103644697.html

STROSINCI, Croatia (AP) — Cooperation replaced confrontation Saturday among European nations as thousands of asylum-seekers streamed into Croatia in hopes of creating a new future in Western Europe.

. . . At least 10,000 arrived on Friday alone, and Croatian authorities struggled to keep up with the influx of those fleeing war and poverty in the Middle East, Africa and Asia.

It's certainly a BIG problem and is not going to be resolved soon.

This bigger problem is how to improve the situations/conditions that cause migrants/refugees to flee.