What are the potential solutions for the EU refugee crisis?

[OmCheeto]

...
This bigger problem is how to improve the situations/conditions that cause migrants/refugees to flee.

No problem is too big for PF!

What is wrong with the US economy?
YOU!: Fix the US Energy Crisis

Ok. So we haven't really fixed those problems...
But we have addressed some of the causes.

We need a new thread: How would you fix the World?

I have many ideas.
But, alas, Ja nie zam bog.*
I may need some help with this. ---------
*Serbski, for; "I am not god".

 

[OmCheeto]

The author of HONY announced yesterday, that he would be sharing stories of the refugees.

This is the first feed I got, just moments ago:

Humans of New York
58 mins ·
“Before leaving for Europe, I went back to Syria to see my family once more. I slept in my uncle’s barn the entire time I was there, because every day the police were knocking on my father’s door. Eventually my father told me: ‘If you stay any longer, they will find you and they will kill you.’ So I contacted a smuggler and made my way to Istanbul. I was just about to leave for Europe when I received a call from my sister. She told me that my father had been very badly beaten by police, and unless I sent 5,000 Euro for an operation, he would die. That was my money to get to Europe. But what could I do? I had no choice. Then two weeks later she called with even worse news. My brother had been killed by ISIS while he was working in an oil field. They found our address on his ID card, and they sent his head to our house, with a message: ‘Kurdish people aren’t Muslims.’ My youngest sister found my brother’s head. This was one year ago. She has not spoken a single word since.” (Kos, Greece)

(2/6)https://fbcdn-photos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xaf1/v/t1.0-0/p526x395/12063302_1096016617139104_8485447858452696370_n.jpg?oh=d2d0b5561352632e8e431c2b305ad582&oe=569A1FF7&__gda__=1449355771_b99c5c87993cc2fbc2b9b7ccd882c5c2​

 

[Czcibor]

It seems that our (Polish) prime minister promised to take 10.000-12.000 refugees.

Sounds ok for a country of 38 mln...

However, I have an insider knowledge that our immigration offices are already clogged, and trivia cases need almost half a year to be resolved. It seems like an incoming disaster, and it would be not even a matter of money or integration, but already first step of doing basic paperwork would be to challenging for my gov.

 

[Astronuc]

immigration offices are already clogged

From what states or regions are immigrants arriving? E. Europe, former SU, . . . .?

 

[Czcibor]

From what states or regions are immigrants arriving? E. Europe, former SU, . . . .?

Eastern Europe? That's generally already the EU, no permit needed. There were mostly people from the former SU, especially Ukraine. Also, quite many of foreign students.

It didn't look so far as a flood, but I had more an impression of office that has the same amount of staff, but maybe 50% (guess) more people to deal with and the same paranoiac procedures, which no one would dare to openly ignore. So queues are growing.

 

[Astronuc]

Eastern Europe? That's generally already the EU, no permit needed.

When I mentioned E. Europe, I was thinking more along the lines of the SE Europe as in Moldova, Romania, the Balkans, . . . , but I was wondering if folks were also coming from ME and Africa, . . . .

It didn't look so far as a flood, but I had more an impression of office that has the same amount of staff, but maybe 50% (guess) more people to deal with and the same paranoiac procedures, which no one would dare to openly ignore. So queues are growing.

I figured that was the case.

 

[HossamCFD]

...with a message: ‘Kurdish people aren’t Muslims.’

They should say that to Saladin. Or better yet, the 13th century Kurdish islamic theologian Ibn Taymiyyah who was so prominent that he was called the 'Sheikh of Islam'. Many see his work as the basis for all modern Wahabism and Jihadism.

 

[Tosh5457]

I'm happy to receive them in my country, but with strict control on those communities to make sure any terrorism plotting from ISIS soldiers, who inevitably come together with the good ones, gets uncovered. I'd also make sure the building of mosques got prohibited like in Switzerland, to show them that since they're in Europe, either they adapt or don't stay.

 

[OmCheeto]

They should say that to Saladin. Or better yet, the 13th century Kurdish islamic theologian Ibn Taymiyyah who was so prominent that he was called the 'Sheikh of Islam'. Many see his work as the basis for all modern Wahabism and Jihadism.

I doubt any sane person cares what ISIS thinks.

But I should clarify something I said earlier, as it strikes me as a cold, overly broad statement; "Although a left wing liberal idiot, I'm not averse to changing my mind; "You've made your bed, you can sleep in it.""

This was based mostly on the info-graphic contained in one of Czcibor's intro-links:

As far as I can tell, a significant quantitative part of the problem seems to originate from the Balkans: Kosovo, Albania, & Serbia, whose sole problem at the moment, appears to be unemployment.

Although unemployment is a very big problem, it hardly qualifies you for "refugee" status.
[IMHO]
It almost looks like they are taking advantage of the situation.
[/IMHO]ps. In the future, if I should make any "what the ... ?" statements, please don't hesitate to question me about it, as I seldom elucidate half of what I'm thinking.

Kind of like, um, right now.

 

[Vanadium 50]

I'd also make sure the building of mosques got prohibited like in Switzerland

Switzerland did not ban mosques. They banned new construction of minarets (through popular referendum, opposed by the government - an odd quirk of Swiss law). The history behind this is complex, and this probably shouldn't be taken entirely at face value.

 

[StatGuy2000]

I'm happy to receive them in my country, but with strict control on those communities to make sure any terrorism plotting from ISIS soldiers, who inevitably come together with the good ones, gets uncovered. I'd also make sure the building of mosques got prohibited like in Switzerland, to show them that since they're in Europe, either they adapt or don't stay.

So you are advocating prohibiting these refugees from practicing their religion? If the refugees were, say, members of the Syrian Orthodox Church (as no doubt many of the refugees are), would you advocate a prohibition on the building of a new church?

I find it astounding to me the degree of hatred and suspicion that is leveled against Muslims. Keep in mind that these refugees are fleeing the brutality of both ISIS/ISIL and the Assad regime. The likelihood that these refugees represent some kind of "fifth column" of IS agents intent on destroying Europe reeks of both racism and paranoia. And I would like to note that Muslims are a diverse group of people, and the overwhelming majority of Muslims are not terrorists, nor do they have any desire whatsoever to commit acts of violence against others.

Now before I get accused of being an apologist for Islam, I am an agnostic with a bias towards atheism who rejects all organized religions and have criticized all religions, including Islam. At the same time, I have personally known many people who are either practicing Muslims or come from Muslim religious backgrounds -- people I consider to be my good friends -- and they are no different than any of my other friends, among whom include Christians of various denominations, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, Sikhs, Parsis, and also those who reject all traditional organized religions like myself.

 

[StatGuy2000]

The problem - or at least one problem - is just because they think the ISIL is too strict, does not mean that they welcome western values. There may well be those who feel beheading rape victims is just too cruel - they should only be stoned. Such people will not integrate well into European society.

Vanadium 50, your post above is implying a default assumption that Syrian refugees will not integrate well into European society. But is that necessarily a warranted assumption, given that refugees fleeing desolation from their home countries may be motivated to want to rebuild their lives and integrate to their new countries if permitted to do so by the said countries?

The bolded statement is important to consider, given that many European countries have often had a difficult time grappling with immigration. It makes me wonder if Syrian refugees may better integrate in countries founded on immigration and a long history of immigration (e.g. Canada, US, Australia)

 

[Czcibor]

Vanadium 50, your post above is implying a default assumption that Syrian refugees will not integrate well into European society. But is that necessarily a warranted assumption, given that refugees fleeing desolation from their home countries may be motivated to want to rebuild their lives and integrate to their new countries if permitted to do so by the said countries.

The bolded statement is important to consider, given that many European countries have often had a difficult time grappling with immigration. It makes me wonder if Syrian refugees may better integrate in countries founded on immigration and a long history of immigration (e.g. Canada, US, Australia)

Should he use assumption based on prior experience (I'm especially worried about riots in Sweden - they have one of the top organized gov, assuming being much better than them should presumably be classified as hubris) or maybe based on ideologically believes that this time everything would work perfectly?

Why are you astonished? I mean local population has to finance serious safety net spending (for decades, there is problem of still higher unemployment rate among second generations) and in exchange get boost in crime rate. I don't think that suggestion than in Marseile is not so bad because it is just gang violence and not terrorism is so reassuring:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...most-dangerous-place-to-be-young-8166738.html
(Muslim are there roughly 1/3rd of population, pending on source)

For me the reaction of population seem very rational. Even if we treat that London bombing of 2005 was done by a person granted asylum as one time event.

I'd add to it that the human wave caused Germans to reached a conclusion that their gov lost control over situation. That neither increases chances for integration nor boost enthusiasm.

 

[StatGuy2000]

Should he use assumption based on prior experience (I'm especially worried about riots in Sweden - they have one of the top organized gov, assuming being much better than them should presumably be classified as hubris) or maybe based on ideologically believes that this time everything would work perfectly?

Why are you astonished? I mean local population has to finance serious safety net spending (for decades, there is problem of still higher unemployment rate among second generations) and in exchange get boost in crime rate. I don't think that suggestion than in Marseile is not so bad because it is just gang violence and not terrorism is so reassuring:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...most-dangerous-place-to-be-young-8166738.html
(Muslim are there roughly 1/3rd of population, pending on source)

For me the reaction of population seem very rational. Even if we treat that London bombing of 2005 was done by a person granted asylum as one time event.

I'd add to it that the human wave caused Germans to reached a conclusion that their gov lost control over situation. That neither increases chances for integration nor boost enthusiasm.

What you fail to take into account is that the problems facing higher unemployment rate, crime rate, and gang violence you point out is at least partially the result of the systemic racism and intolerance that is entrenched within European countries, who view immigrants in a hostile light and often refuse to allow for the integration that you speak of. Had the public been more open to accepting of new immigrants or second generation residents as fellow nationals, and had the governments done more to financially integrate immigrants into the national fold, both economically and socially, it is fair to say that much of the social problem you speak of would be lessened.

I am from Canada, which currently has among the highest levels of immigration in the world, often from non-Western countries. While I will candidly admit that Canada has its problems with respect to immigrants, in general the country has succeeded in integrating its immigrants into the national fabric with considerable ease. Canada also has a history of welcoming large numbers of refugees who have subsequently become very successful in this country (Ismaili Muslims of Indian descent from Uganda who were expelled from the country during the 1970s and 1980s, Vietnamese boat people during the same time are just a few examples). My hope is that the election of a new Prime Minister will follow through on his promise to provide assistance and help to these refugees, who I see can make tremendous contributions to my country.

 

[S.G. Janssens]

My hope is that the election of a new Prime Minister will follow through on his promise to provide assistance and help to these refugees

If I'm not mistaken, one of the new prime minister's first acts was to withdraw Canada from the military coalition against ISIS.

 

[mheslep]

I am from Canada, which currently has among the highest levels of immigration in the world...

Roughly the same immigration rate as its southern neighbor the US BTW (~1.5 million per year with ~1 million legal and ~0.5 million illegal)
http://www.dhs.gov/sites/default/files/publications/ois_lpr_fr_2013.pdf
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_immigration_to_the_United_States#Breakdown_by_state

 

[StatGuy2000]

Roughly the same immigration rate as its southern neighbor the US BTW (~1.5 million per year with ~1 million legal and ~0.5 million illegal)
http://www.dhs.gov/sites/default/files/publications/ois_lpr_fr_2013.pdf
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_immigration_to_the_United_States#Breakdown_by_state

Notice that I stated among the highest in the Western world, not the highest. Also I should have clarified that immigration rate on a per capital basis (i.e. based on percentage of the population).

 

[StatGuy2000]

If I'm not mistaken, one of the new prime minister's first acts was to withdraw Canada from the military coalition against ISIS.

More specifically, to end Canada's participation in the use of bombing campaigns by our pilots specifically in Syria. It's worth pointing out that Canada's actual military participation in the military coalition against ISIS in Syria is minimal at best (according to one news source, out of the 119 coalition air strikes in Syria as of Sept 4, 2015, Canada has participated in just 4 of these since Canada's mission had expanded to that country back in March).

http://globalnews.ca/news/2204836/i...-has-participated-in-4-airstrikes-over-syria/

And it's worth keeping in mind how effective these bombing campaigns have been in actually stopping IS's progress in either Syria or Iraq.

 

[mheslep]

how effective these bombing campaigns have been in actually stopping IS's progress in either Syria or Iraq.

Which is? By contrast, how effective will doing nothing be?

 

[StatGuy2000]

Which is? By contrast, how effective will doing nothing be?

That is a straw man argument, because you seem to be arguing that "we" (as in we in the Western world) ought to do nothing, an argument which I am not making.

I should also point out that your reply is implicitly making the assumption that the only 2 options that Western countries like the US and Canada have available are: (a) carry out bombing campaign, or (b) do nothing. There are other options that are possible (e.g. supplying arms and tactical or intelligence support to the secular opponents of IS like the Free Syrian Army, sending ground troops to Syria under a coalition framework, hash out diplomatic solution with Assad and the Free Syrian Army or other opponents of his regime who are not aligned with IS).

And I don't think it is at all improper to question whether the current strategy that the US and their coalition partners are performing are actually making a real impact in defeating or eliminating IS as a threat to the region. Nor do I think it is improper for the new Canadian PM to make a decision that the (limited) resources available militarily in Canada should best be deployed in areas outside of bombing missions.

 

[mheslep]

I should also point out that your reply is implicitly making the assumption that the only 2 options that Western countries like the US and Canada have available are: (a) carry out bombing campaign, or (b) do nothing. ...

Not at all. There are many options. At the moment, Canada however chooses to do nothing.

 

[StatGuy2000]

Not at all. There are many options. At the moment, Canada however chooses to do nothing.

And given our overall military contribution to the ISIS mission is insignificant and irrelevant in material impact (let's face the fact here -- it is the US who is leading this mission, and it is the US military who is having the most impact), I personally feel that ending our contribution to the bombing mission, with a goal to refocusing where Canada can make the most meaningful contribution, is a wise decision. Canada is not a military superpower and I don't think any of us should pretend that it is (like previous PM Harper, at least IMHO).

I think the US president, the Pentagon, the State Department, and others all recognize this, hence the muted response so far to the announcement of Canada's end to direct military engagement in the fight against IS.

 

[Vanadium 50]

Vanadium 50, your post above is implying a default assumption that Syrian refugees will not integrate well into European society.

I don't think I am. I am saying there is a continuum between "fleeing ISIS" and "will integrate well" rather than a binary choice.

 

[HossamCFD]

Slightly surprised at the renewed interest in this topic.

I would say it's wishful thinking and perhaps even unreasonable to expect this wave of refugees to integrate well without challenges. There are many problems and actually only few of them have to do with the fact that most refugees are muslim. Langauge for a start is a massive barrier to integration in any non-English speaking country for anyone older than say 10 years old (good luck learning Hungarian). There's also the fact that when a lot of people migrate together from one place they tend to form exclusive communities which doesn't really help. There's the economical situation and there are also of course a lot of cultural differences some of them are related to Islam and some are not. I have to say that discussing the refugees issue only through the muslim lens, as if that's the one word that tells you everything you need to know about them, is quite oversimplified and strike me as a bit bizarre to be honest.

I don't think that suggestion than in Marseile is not so bad because it is just gang violence and not terrorism is so reassuring:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...most-dangerous-place-to-be-young-8166738.html
(Muslim are there roughly 1/3rd of population, pending on source)

I'd say that's an example of one of the serious problems that has very little, if anything at all, to do with them being muslim.

 

[S.G. Janssens]

There are many problems and actually only few of them have to do with the fact that most refugees are muslim.

I'm not sure. I would really prefer to be able to wholeheartedly agree with you, and I could do that based on most of my personal experiences with muslims, which would likely include you.

However, firstly I find myself still living in rather privileged conditions (i.e. not in one of the socially weak neighbourhoods of some larger European cities, where it has often become "undesirable" for two men to walk holding hands or for girls to wear a tiny skirt). Secondly, it is increasingly dangerous to openly criticize or ridicule Islam here, see the cartoon affair in Denmark, the brutal attacks in France, the murder of a director and the necessity for permanent security for anti-islam representatives in The Netherlands. I fear that a large influx of muslim immigrants (moderate or otherwise) will not improve this situation.

I was born and live in a country that has a history of tolerance towards different religions and deviating views, but also towards irony, ridicule and blasphemy. I would like it to stay that way.

EDIT: Mention of the murder of a Dutch film director added.

 

[mheslep]

...I have to say that discussing the refugees issue only through the muslim lens, as if that's the one word that tells you everything you need to know about them, is quite oversimplified and strike me as a bit bizarre to be honest.

I'd say that's an example of one of the serious problems that has very little, if anything at all, to do with them being Muslim.

Religious identification in the case of Muslims, especially those coming out of the Middle East, has high correlation with views that are utterly antithetical to those of western culture. See the Pew poll. Favor Sharia as the law of the land: over half; religious judges decide family / property disputes: over half; whippings/cutting off hands for theft: over half; stoning as punishment for adultery: over half; death penalty for leaving Islam: over half. Mix these widely held views with a European culture that seems to have a decreasing sense of itself and trouble is likely in my view.

http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/...ligion-politics-society-beliefs-about-sharia/

With a European history that includes the like of The Thirty Years War and the Nazi persecutions, a strong skepticism for group identification by religion is understandable, perhaps to be applauded. But to extend that skepticism to the point of outright rejection of any discussion of the common viewpoints of Middle Eastern Muslims; it is that which leaves skepticism and enters the bizarre.

 

[StatGuy2000]

Religious identification in the case of Muslims, especially those coming out of the Middle East, has high correlation with views that are utterly antithetical to those of western culture. See the Pew poll. Favor Sharia as the law of the land: over half; religious judges decide family / property disputes: over half; whippings/cutting off hands for theft: over half; stoning as punishment for adultery: over half; death penalty for leaving Islam: over half. Mix these widely held views with a European culture that seems to have a decreasing sense of itself and trouble is likely in my view.

http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/...ligion-politics-society-beliefs-about-sharia/

With a European history that includes the like of The Thirty Years War and the Nazi persecutions, a strong skepticism for group identification by religion is understandable, perhaps to be applauded. But to extend that skepticism to the point of outright rejection of any discussion of the common viewpoints of Middle Eastern Muslims; it is that which leaves skepticism and enters the bizarre.

It is worth noting that the Pew poll you quoted does not include Syria, but does include Muslim respondents from Lebanon, a country which shares very close cultural and historical ties to Syria. So if we look at the Lebanese Muslim respondents as a surrogate for how Syrian Muslims may respond, we find the following:

1. 38% respond that Sharia is developed by man (the highest proportion in all countries where Muslim respondents were polled), versus 49% say it is the revealed word of God (the lowest proportion in all countries where Muslim respondents were polled). That leaves 13% who did not express an opinion.

2. Only 29% of Lebanese Muslim respondents favor making Sharia the official law of the land -- that would mean 71% would be opposed.

3. Among the 29% minority who favor making Sharia, about half of Lebanese Muslims state that it should apply only to Muslims.

At least to my immediate eye, this would appear to indicate that Lebanese and Syrian Muslims, in comparison to Muslims from elsewhere in the Middle East, tend to hold highly secular views and thus are probably more likely to better integrate into Western countries (this may especially be the case for those who are especially well-educated or have a solid command of French or English -- I have read elsewhere that fluency in both languages are quite common in Syria).

 

[mheslep]

So if we look at the Lebanese Muslim respondents as a surrogate for how Syrian Muslims may respond, we find the following:

Perhaps, though I'm inclined to think the mixed nature of Lebanese demographics is important reason why Lebanese responses to that poll on Muslim opinion varies sharply from that of, say, Iraq. That is, I suspect the Lebanese melting pot of culture encourages less strident views. Lebanon is 41% Christian, and the Lebanese Islamists are split 50/50 Sunni and Shia. Syria by contrast is 92% Muslim and overwhelmingly Sunni.

 

[StatGuy2000]

Perhaps, though I'm inclined to think the mixed nature of Lebanese demographics is important reason why Lebanese responses to that poll on Muslim opinion varies sharply from that of, say, Iraq. That is, I suspect the Lebanese melting pot of culture encourages less strident views. Lebanon is 41% Christian, and the Lebanese Islamists are split 50/50 Sunni and Shia. Syria by contrast is 92% Muslim and overwhelmingly Sunni.

What you state above regarding Syria is not correct -- in fact, Syria is ethnically and religiously diverse. The population can be broken down to the following:

1. 74% Sunni Muslim, mostly Sunni Arabs (59-60%), but also including Kurds (9%) and Turkomen (3%)
2. 13% Shia Muslim -- this would include both Twelver Shia (the dominant form of Shia Islam practiced in Iran), the Alawaites, and Ismailis
3. 10% Christian -- this would include members of the Syrian Orthodox Church, along with Greek Catholics, Assyrian Church of the East, Armenian Orthodox, Roman Catholic, Protestant, and others.
4. 3% Druze -- a unique, syncretic religion that combines elements of Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Gnosticism, Hinduism, and Neoplatonist and Pythagorean philosophies.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syria#Demographics

 

[mheslep]

What you state above regarding Syria is not correct -- in fact, Syria is ethnically and religiously diverse. ...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syria#Demographics

Which is a difference of few percent, 87% Muslim in your wiki tally. I used this wiki page, which references another source. Either way, Lebanon is far more diverse demographically than Syria over a much smaller geographic space (15% of Syria).

 

[HossamCFD]

I'm not sure. I would really prefer to be able to wholeheartedly agree with you, and I could do that based on most of my personal experiences with muslims, which would likely include you.

Cheers for the compliment :). I'm an atheist, though I was raised as a muslim and all of my family still is.

But to extend that skepticism to the point of outright rejection of any discussion of the common viewpoints of Middle Eastern Muslims; it is that which leaves skepticism and enters the bizarre.

You know that's not my position. I have criticised Islam and the actions of some muslims A LOT on this forum. I do believe though that group identification can be quite counterproductive when it's too prevalent. Many people wouldn't identify first and foremost as muslims, but tend to do so when faced with a situation where everyone around them does.

See the Pew poll.

We've discussed that poll before and I've acknowledged that these views are deeply problematic but stated why I wouldn't take the numbers at face value. People are free to put as much weight they want on these results. However, when it comes to integration of refugees there are lots of other problems that can't directly be linked to that poll. For instance things like attitude towards women, forced marriage, etc. tend to be prevalent in Arabic societies even among non-muslims. Another huge problem, which we sadly may have to reckon with the next time there's a war in Gaza, is anti-semitism which again has deeper cultural roots in the middle east than just Islam.

I was born and live in a country that has a history of tolerance towards different religions and deviating views, but also towards irony, ridicule and blasphemy. I would like it to stay that way.

I too want Europe to stay that way (though I wasn't born here). If anything I would say we could do with more ridicule and blasphemy.

At least to my immediate eye, this would appear to indicate that Lebanese and Syrian Muslims, in comparison to Muslims from elsewhere in the Middle East, tend to hold highly secular views and thus are probably more likely to better integrate into Western countries

I agree. In Arabic spheres people normally make fun of Lebanese and Syrians because of how irreligious they are in comparison. That was before the war though and I'm not sure how much that changed now because of the war.

 

[StatGuy2000]

Which is a difference of few percent, 87% Muslim in your wiki tally. I used this wiki page, which references another source. Either way, Lebanon is far more diverse demographically than Syria over a much smaller geographic space (15% of Syria).

But again, what you fail to take into account is that there is a tremendous difference in religious practices even within Sunni or Shia Muslims (within Sunni Islam there are numerous schools of faith with different customs, traditions, etc.) It's also worth pointing out that the wiki link above lumps the Druze population with the Muslim population, which is misleading since the Druze do not consider themselves as Muslim, nor are they accepted as such by the Muslim population (either Sunni or Shia). But I digress on this point.

At any rate, Syria's history has been tightly linked to its neighbour Lebanon, and many Lebanese Muslims have close family ties with their fellow co-religionists in Syria, and thus I felt that Lebanese Muslim attitudes would correlate well with that of Syrian Muslims.

 

[mheslep]

You know that's not my position.

Yes, well, my response was to what I take to be your hypothetically (?) stated position above:

...that discussing the refugees issue only through the muslim lens, as if that's the one word that tells you everything you need to know about them, is quite oversimplified and strike me as a bit bizarre to be honest...

I think you know that in the posts here thus far nobody insists refugees *only* be considered as Muslims.

We've discussed that poll before

Sorry, had forgotten ...

 

[S.G. Janssens]

I have to say that I'm pleasantly surprised by this discussion. Although it is clear that views differ (sometimes strongly), it is one of the few online debates I have witnessed recently with enough room left for both expression as well as consideration.

 

[Tosh5457]

So you are advocating prohibiting these refugees from practicing their religion? If the refugees were, say, members of the Syrian Orthodox Church (as no doubt many of the refugees are), would you advocate a prohibition on the building of a new church?

I find it astounding to me the degree of hatred and suspicion that is leveled against Muslims. Keep in mind that these refugees are fleeing the brutality of both ISIS/ISIL and the Assad regime. The likelihood that these refugees represent some kind of "fifth column" of IS agents intent on destroying Europe reeks of both racism and paranoia. And I would like to note that Muslims are a diverse group of people, and the overwhelming majority of Muslims are not terrorists, nor do they have any desire whatsoever to commit acts of violence against others.

Now before I get accused of being an apologist for Islam, I am an agnostic with a bias towards atheism who rejects all organized religions and have criticized all religions, including Islam. At the same time, I have personally known many people who are either practicing Muslims or come from Muslim religious backgrounds -- people I consider to my good friends -- and they are no different than any of my other friends, among whom include Christians of various denominations, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, Sikhs, Parsis, and also those who reject all traditional organized religions like myself.

Yes, because they form their communities and ghettos around the religion, so I'd straight out prohibit it. It's not my fault that there are too many muslim fundamentalists: since 9/11 there were over 2500 arrests in UK alone for terrorism, and recently there were a high number of muslims going to North Africa and Middle East to fight for ISIS. France predicts 10000 muslims will go from France to fight for the Islamic State (https://www.rt.com/news/238845-europe-islamist-number-grow/). Can't play nice when you face a terrorism threat like this and I'd understand if I went to another country and had to play by their rules, that's how it goes.