What are the potential solutions for the EU refugee crisis?

[russ_watters]

Oh, just to clarify, the Eid connection is just that it's a public holiday, people go out and crowds are easier to assemble. It's the same reason why the attacks in Cologne and Hamburg happened on new year's.

Fair enough - so it is possible that the timing is coincidental/a crime of opportunity. But the predisposition to commit the crime comes from somewhere and a mob, pretty much by definition, is a group of people that shares a common goal.

 

[HossamCFD]

Fair enough - so it is possible that the timing is coincidental/a crime of opportunity. But the predisposition to commit the crime comes from somewhere and a mob, pretty much by definition, is a group of people that shares a common goal.

No disagreement there.

 

[mheslep]

is a group of people that shares a common goal.

... that share common behaviors and values, aka a culture.

 

[fresh_42]

Fair enough - so it is possible that the timing is coincidental/a crime of opportunity. But the predisposition to commit the crime comes from somewhere and a mob, pretty much by definition, is a group of people that shares a common goal.

This crowd gathers several times a year, each year. First time something like this happened. Now tell us it has nothing to do with Muslims.

 

[mheslep]

From the Onion, or from the Mayor of Cologne?

Asked by a journalist how women could protect themselves, the Mayor said: "There’s always the possibility of keeping a certain distance of more than an arm’s length – that is to say to make sure yourself you don’t look to be too close to people who are not known to you, and to whom you don’t have a trusting relationship"

.

 

[Silicon Waffle]

From the Onion, or from the Mayor of Cologne?

.

German male population seems full of masculinity, which makes me think people there are still pretty much conservative with their military mindset of forceful management, violence, killings aka fascism.
The Mayor speech of such a rule of thumb doesn't make me think she is thoughtful enough in this case. It makes me laugh instead, something like "It rains a lot here from time to time, so I have to put on a raincoat every time I go out". The irony then is there are people who listened to and followed it.

 

[Sophia]

I don't feel that the "original Germans" are full of fascist mindset. In fact, they are trying to prove they have changed all the time. That's one of the reasons Merkel invites immigrants to Germany. To show the world they are not racist anymore.
You're right that keeping close to known people is not a solution, but until the criminals are found and punished, we can't be sure that the incidents will not happen again.
And if I was a woman in these cities, I would definitely not go out alone. I think what the mayor suggests is a reasonable safety precaution.
Maybe men can't understand how humiliating it is when a woman is confronted with stupid sexual harassment and how powerless she may be. I think that the majority of women have experienced something line that, but this time it is 100x worse than someone whistles to you.
Not being alone for a while is crucial now.

 

[HossamCFD]

Frau Merkel: Sex attackers risk deportation
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35259224

"These are repugnant criminal acts that a state, that Germany will not accept. The feeling women had in this case of being at people's mercy, without any protection, is intolerable for me personally as well.

"That's why it is important that everything that happened there will be brought to the table. We must examine again and again whether we have already done what is necessary in terms of deportations from Germany, in order to send clear signals to those who are not prepared to abide by our legal order."

Also reports that similar attacks on a smaller scale took place in Finland and Switzerland on New Years

In Finland, police said they had received reports of "widespread sexual harassment" in Helsinki on New Year's Eve.

A police official said they were tipped off that groups of asylum seekers had planned to sexually harass women and that three asylum seekers had been arrested.

"There hasn't been this kind of harassment on previous New Year's Eves or other occasions for that matter," Helsinki deputy police chief Ilkka Koskimaki told AFP news agency.

"This is a completely new phenomenon in Helsinki."

Police in the Swiss city of Zurich said about six women had reported being robbed and sexually assaulted on New Year's Eve in attacks "a little bit similar" to those in Germany.

 

[StatGuy2000]

"Not unheard of", sure, in broad strokes, but also not common - it's pretty rare and I've never heard of an incident that large. In either case, that's all a reasonable possibility. I'm not real clear what your point is though: are you simply claiming it may not be terrorism? I agree, it might not be. Indeed, you're the first to use the word. Not every crime done in the name of islamic extremism is necessarily terrorism.

Indeed, in some ways it would indicate an even bigger problem if the perpetrators were culturally motivated and only indirectly religiously motivated. We're seeing a problem similar to what you describe in the US: people being incited to violence based on inflated racial tensions. Mob violence where people somehow become pulled into the conflicts of others they don't even necessarily agree with inflates the problem way beyond the extremists themselves.

What I am stating is that the crime committed in Cologne may have nothing to do with Islamic extremism at all. As of this moment, there is no reason to suspect that the perpetrators involved had committed these assaults in the name of Islam, or were culturally motivated to commit these crimes. In fact, I am skeptical that there is any religious motivation at all -- in other news reports that I have read or heard, the perpetrators were said to harass/assault the women to distract them to rob them (stealing things like phones, purses, etc.). Which further bolsters my belief that these were criminal gangs involved. Again, we'll know once we get more details from police investigations.

I would also want to be careful not to draw too many conclusions about whether what we're specifically seeing in Cologne and Hamburg is evidence of mob violence related to inflated racial tensions or people being pulled into conflicts based on racial tensions, although I share your overall concern about such racial tensions tearing into the fabric of these societies (many European countries, including Germany, have been wrestling with these issues for years).

I guess my ultimate message is not to jump to too many conclusions, and not to draw the wrong lessons by, say for example, denying assistance to Syrian refugees (who are fleeing ISIS, by the way), or by overreacting by, say, treating every person of Muslim background with suspicion or hostility.

 

[mheslep]

... denying assistance to Syrian refugees ...

Much assistance is being given to Syrian refugees, though the only long term, effective response must eventually be to stop the causes making refugees in Syria. The relevant, practical question is how much immigration should be allowed because this event and others in Europe indicates there are costs to too much immigration, too fast.

 

[StatGuy2000]

Much assistance is being given to Syrian refugees, though the only long term, effective response must eventually be to stop the causes making refugees in Syria. The relevant, practical question is how much immigration should be allowed because this event and others in Europe indicates there are costs to too much immigration, too fast.

I agree with you that the only long true effective solution rests with the end of the Syrian Civil War (which is unlikely to be resolved any time soon). At the same time, I disagree that the relevant question is how much immigration should be allowed, because inherent in your bolded statement above is that the cause of the incidents in Europe is due to immigration alone. It isn't.

Again, there is no evidence whatsoever that Syrian refugees are responsible for the assaults in Germany or elsewhere in Europe. If the reports that is coming back indicate that the perpetrators were born in, grew up in, or lived for a long time in Germany are true, then the problem, as I see it, is a German social problem, not a problem being imported into the country. As an immigrant to Canada, I'm disturbed by the notion that immigrants are to be blamed for social ills.

In fact, I'm becoming increasingly concerned by the fear mongering and hostility towards immigrants in general (and Muslim immigrants in particular) that is increasingly being expressed in the US specifically, both in public statements in the media such as Fox News or political candidates (e.g. Trump, Cruz), or in online forums, as well as reactions coming from right-wing groups in various European countries.

 

[HossamCFD]

It seems that we're starting to learn some facts about the perpetrators
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35261359

"Of the 31 suspects whose names are known, 18 have asylum seeker status," federal interior ministry spokesman Tobias Plate told reporters.

The suspects include nine Algerians, eight Moroccans, four Syrians, five Iranians, two Germans and one each from Iraq, Serbia and the US, he said.

The attacks appear to have been more widespread across Europe than initially reported

Similar attacks to those seen in Cologne were also reported in Hamburg and in Stuttgart.

Police in several other European countries have also received complaints:

• In Finland, police said they received reports of "widespread sexual harassment" in Helsinki on New Year's Eve, which they described as "a completely new phenomenon"
• Police in the Swedish city of Kalmar have arrested two men over complaints by at least 15 women of sexual molestation
• Austrian Interior Minister Johanna Mikl-Leitner pledged that https://www.oevp.at/team/mikl-leitner/Mikl-Leitner-Null-Toleranz-fuer-Taeter-bei-sexuellen-Uebergriffen-auf-Frauen.psp towards sexual assault after complaints of attacks in the city of Salzburg
• Police in the Swiss city of Zurich said about six women had reported being robbed and sexually assaulted on New Year's Eve in attacks "a little bit similar" to those in Germany

Meanwhile, Arabs express fury and disgust on social media concerning the sexual attacks.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35251167

Facebook user Israa Ragab: "Every time I watch the TV and hear them saying the suspects could be from North Africa or Arabs I feel so ashamed and disgusted"

Deutsche Welle Arabic journalist Nahla Elhenawy: "The ugliness of our region is reaching Germany"

 

[russ_watters]

What I am stating is that the crime committed in Cologne may have nothing to do with Islamic extremism at all.

Certainly possible and we are of course certainly still speculating.

As of this moment, there is no reason to suspect that the perpetrators involved had committed these assaults in the name of Islam, or were culturally motivated to commit these crimes.

Well, we've been discussing reasons. They may be tenuous and preliminary, but they do exist.

I guess my ultimate message is not to jump to too many conclusions, and not to draw the wrong lessons by, say for example, denying assistance to Syrian refugees (who are fleeing ISIS, by the way), or by overreacting by, say, treating every person of Muslim background with suspicion or hostility.

While I largely agree, it is a tough balance between security and freedom and during the preliminary stages of an investigation even more so. I think it is a mistake to completely ignore or prohibit certain avenues of investigation.

...inherent in your bolded statement above is that the cause of the incidents in Europe is due to immigration alone. It isn't.

It doesn't have to be "alone", it just has to be a part.

Again, there is no evidence whatsoever that Syrian refugees are responsible for the assaults in Germany...

Now rendered somewhat moot because of the official announcement that many of the suspects were, in fact, Syrian and other refugees, but again, while it may have been tenuous, this story was posted in this thread for a reason: The initial report included a paraphrase from a police officer stating that some of those involved were "asylum seekers". As with overreacting/jumping the gun, let's not ignore evidence/lines of investigation we don't like.

 

[mheslep]

I agree with you that the only long true effective solution rests with the end of the Syrian Civil War (which is unlikely to be resolved any time soon).

Ending the war may not be the only solution. Creating safe zone enclaves, no-fly zones and the like, enforced by some foreign military is also a possibility. The logical choice, the EU, either doesn't have capability or the will. The current US administration has the capability but not the will.

At the same time, I disagree that the relevant question is how much immigration should be allowed, because inherent in your bolded statement above is that the cause of the incidents in Europe is due to immigration alone. It isn't

With human behavior I suspect nothing is a simple as a single cause. In this case, i) the culprits were reported as N. African and/or Arab descent and young, ii) this kind of mass assault was reported as previously unheard of in Germany, iii) though immigration has occurred peacefully for decades into the EU and US, in this case the rate has jumped a thousand fold over months which likely doesn't give the cultures time to adapt, especially given, iv) aspects of the culture of ME immigrants is apparently radically different:

“They have a completely different view of women than we do here,” Heinz Buschkowski, a prominent Social Democrat and expert on Germany’s Muslim population, told German radio Thursday. “Women who are on the street at 1 a.m. or 1:30 a.m. are considered whores and German women are generally considered fair game.”

Again, there is no evidence whatsoever that Syrian refugees are responsible for the assaults in Germany or elsewhere in Europe.

There was suggestive evidence immediately, and now there's direct evidence. From Politico / Die Welt:

BERLIN — Public fury over the sexual assault of dozens of women in Cologne on New Year’s Eve exploded into a political crisis for Angela Merkel following reports Thursday that asylum seekers were among the attackers.

Outrage over the attacks, including two alleged rapes, has been building all week but reached fever pitch after a police report describing the events revealed that asylum seekers were among the perpetrators. Authorities said previously they had no indication those behind the assaults were refugees, describing the suspects as “North African.”

“During identity checks, the vast majority could only provide their asylum-seeker registration papers,” an excerpt of the report published by Die Welt said. The paper quoted an officer who claimed the majority of the roughly 80 individuals checked were of Syrian origin. The head of federal police union confirmed in an interview with German television late Thursday that refugees were involved.

... As an immigrant to Canada, ...fear mongering and hostility ... US ... Fox News ... Trump, Cruz ...online forums... right-wing groups... European countries.

And I'm concerned about the actual mass assaults in Cologne, in the presence of 1.5 million/year asylum seekers into Germany.

 

[StatGuy2000]

Ending the war may not be the only solution. Creating safe zone enclaves, no-fly zones and the like, enforced by some foreign military is also a possibility. The logical choice, the EU, either doesn't have capability or the will. The current US administration has the capability but not the will.

Given how much the situation has degenerated in Syria, I have my doubts about whether creating safe zone enclaves is even possible at this stage (perhaps earlier on it might have made a difference, but not now, and it's naïve to think otherwise). It's also important to keep in mind the following: safe zone for whom? Currently, Syria is being torn apart by two primary forces: ISIS on the one hand, and the Baathist regime of Bashar Assad on the other. The US and the EU don't really have any real allies on the ground of significant strength who can guarantee a safe zone and who can help safe guard the safety of civilians.

And it's not as if the US is not doing anything -- the US is actively engaging in a bombing campaign against ISIS in Syria. At least as far as I can tell, the civil conflict in Syria doesn't appear any closer to resolution in spite of what the US and their allies are doing.

With human behavior I suspect nothing is a simple as a single cause. In this case, i) the culprits were reported as N. African and/or Arab descent and young, ii) this kind of mass assault was reported as previously unheard of in Germany, iii) though immigration has occurred peacefully for decades into the EU and US, in this case the rate has jumped a thousand fold over months which likely doesn't give the cultures time to adapt, especially given, iv) aspects of the culture of ME immigrants is apparently radically different:

I am not blind to the fact that many non-Western societies, including many Middle Eastern societies, have serious issues with respect to their attitudes toward the treatment of women, and that harassment of women is a problem (a problem that many among those communities have identified, and which have led to much soul searching, as have been identified in the BBC news link provided by HossamCFD). Clearly this is something that needs to be addressed, but I reiterate that such problems cannot be addressed through hostility and hatred. As I've identified earlier in the thread, we in Western societies should not react, but should act smartly.

There was suggestive evidence immediately, and now there's direct evidence. From Politico / Die Welt:

OK, I do see some early reports that some Syrian refugees may have been involved in the attacks. But out of how many?

And I'm concerned about the actual mass assaults in Cologne, in the presence of 1.5 million/year asylum seekers into Germany.

I am also concerned about the actual mass assaults. But read your line above -- 1.5 million asylum seekers. We have a certain percentage of the 1000 perpetrators who may have been Syrian, out of 1.5 million asylum seekers. That is a tiny percentage. Are you going to blame an entire group of people for the actions of a few?

As an analogy, if a gang of white men from the American South raped a black woman or lynched a black man, for example, are you going to blame the entire white American population?

 

[fresh_42]

We have a certain percentage of the 1000 perpetrators who may have been Syrian, out of 1.5 million asylum seekers. That is a tiny percentage. Are you going to blame an entire group of people for the actions of a few?

That is correct. Unluckily it doesn't falsify the equation: no refugees = no assaults.
Fact is, they lack of a justly behavior. And I don't care whether it's due to the war, their religion, their age or their missing education. Whatever.
I've seen a message of some other refugee on youtube today who bitterly complained about it because of the numbers you quoted.
He'd be one of the first who wanted those criminals to be deported. A point of view it's hard not to share.

 

[JorisL]

Fact is, they lack of a justly behavior. And I don't care whether it's due to the war, their religion, their age or their missing education.

This is anecdotal but the refugees in my hometown had to be accompanied in a local store because they kept opening packs of cookies and "taste them" before deciding they didn't want them.
Others would just drink a bottle of soda and leave the empty bottle, leaving the store empty-handed but with a full stomach.

Say what you will but this is nowhere acceptable.

Also we've had several mass fights in refugee centers because two groups (for example Iraqi's and Syrians) disagreeing about some tiny thing.
If this becomes commonplace I can see it happening that fighting results in return to home country.

 

[Vanadium 50]

OK, I do see some early reports that some Syrian refugees may have been involved in the attacks. But out of how many?

The link Russ posted says "a majority"

There is also this: https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...1ed4c8-b584-11e5-8abc-d09392edc612_story.html which says"Out of the 34 suspects, 21 were asylum seekers — and the majority of those, the spokesman said, arrived this past year. The 34 reportedly include 10 Algerians, 10 Moroccans, five Iranians, four Syrians, two Germans, one American, one Serbian and one Iraqi."

In looking this up, I ran across this: http://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation-world/world/article53711815.html which has this gem: 'Mohamed T. was reported to have been carrying what appeared to be a handwritten cheat sheet for sexual intimidation. The list had phrases in Arabic translated into German. The phrases included “I want to (have sex),” “I want to kiss you,” “Big breasts,” “I have a surprise” and most chillingly “I will kill you.”'

 

[russ_watters]

I am not blind to the fact that many non-Western societies, including many Middle Eastern societies, have serious issues with respect to their attitudes toward the treatment of women, and that harassment of women is a problem (a problem that many among those communities have identified, and which have led to much soul searching, as have been identified in the BBC news link provided by HossamCFD). Clearly this is something that needs to be addressed...

Glad to hear that.

But read your line above -- 1.5 million asylum seekers. We have a certain percentage of the 1000 perpetrators who may have been Syrian, out of 1.5 million asylum seekers. That is a tiny percentage.

The exact percentage isn't very critical, it is the fact that the percentage is non-zero that is an issue to be addressed.

Are you going to blame an entire group of people for the actions of a few?

You're projecting: certainly no one here has ever suggested any such thing.

 

[Sophia]

This is anecdotal but the refugees in my hometown had to be accompanied in a local store because they kept opening packs of cookies and "taste them" before deciding they didn't want them.
Others would just drink a bottle of soda and leave the empty bottle, leaving the store empty-handed but with a full stomach.

Say what you will but this is nowhere acceptable.

Also we've had several mass fights in refugee centers because two groups (for example Iraqi's and Syrians) disagreeing about some tiny thing.
If this becomes commonplace I can see it happening that fighting results in return to home country.

I don't believe that behaviour like this is acceptable even in their home countries. They MUST know that it is against the law. This behaviour is not caused by ignorance or difference between cultures. The main cause is that they believe no one can punish them. Nothing will happen to them. So they can do whatever they want.
Now is the highest time to show them that they can bear consequences of their actions as well. And those consequences must be strict and applied to each person who acts against the law, no matter how small the matter is. Today I read in the newspaper that they shouted at the police they have to be gentle because they are refugees. One of the men allegedly claimed he was invited by Merkel so he had special privileges.
I'll tell you something. When I was 4 years old playing with my mum in front of our house, our neighbour aimed at us with a gun threatening to shoot us because we were of different nationality (civil war in yugoslavia) . And each night before I went to sleep, we would hear some strange explosions and I would ask my parents if we are going to die. They had to tell me everything is going to be OK, otherwise I would not sleep. They had to take me to the psychologist because all the people I drew were black and crying.
So yes, I do have a strong sympathy for those people. I fully understand their problems. But in the other hand, when my family came to this country, we 100% tried to fit in and to adapt to this culture. My parents worked really hard and I did my best at school, trying desperately not to cause any problems. Because we were grateful that we could stay here.
On the other hand, it seems, that many of those refugees simply feel no gratitude and do not wish to adapt to European culture and values at all. Should we really accept people like that? I don't think so. There should be some very strict mechanism that would separate those who really need help and those who refuse to change anything from their behaviour.

 

[JorisL]

I read that German are now willing to change laws, allowing them to remove the rotten fruit from the basket.
A few more of these events and they have to be really careful because there will be repercussions for the slightest altercations.

Unfortunately the good folks get a bad reputation as well.

 

[russ_watters]

The link Russ posted says "a majority"

Backing up, the link that started this in post #147 said 8 of 8 detained by a specific cop who apparently shouldn't have been talking to the media:

A policeman who was outside Cologne station during the New Year's Eve trouble told the city's Express news website that he had detained eight suspects. "They were all asylum seekers, carrying copies of their residence certificates," he said.

 

[mheslep]

... we in Western societies should not react, but should act smartly.

The usual response to crime in society via police action is limited by staff, scale, and justice concerns to the actions of a few individuals, generally not acting cooperatively. So, the odd crime or anti-social behavior can be dealt with over time either by police action or, preferably, simply by domestic societal norms taking hold. This applies equally I think to the odd mis-behaving long term resident or to the recent immigrant when immigration numbers are reasonable. Germany, acting in one sense nobly I think, has nonetheless broken that system by importing a million and half people from one area in a year. They have, in effect, imported a foreign culture as opposed to assimilating several. The usual response crafted be Western society is bound to fail due to lack of both time and manpower. Now horrible results are at hand, and misdirection or denial can only make the outcome worse.

Clearly this is something that needs to be addressed, but I reiterate that such problems cannot be addressed through hostility and hatred. As I've identified earlier in the thread,...

These are vague projections of the feelings of others, which is unhelpful to addressing the mass assault. Reiterating them as you say, is in my view an attempt via well poisoning to close any discussion about the connection of mass assaults in Germany with enormous levels of immigration. That's not going to happen.

 

[HossamCFD]

That's not going to happen.

And indeed it shouldn't happen.

It's a miserable English Saturday night and the weather is awful, so instead of going to the pub I decided to rant a bit about this.

Is the Arabic community living in Europe going to have a bad reputation as a result of this? Quite possibly, but so be it. If sharing some of the burden and the shame of these acts is the price we need to pay to have a frank discussion about them, then, speaking as an Arab, I'm happy to pay the price. First and foremost trying to be PC and censor the discussion is an insult to the actual victims of the attacks and a betrayal to the women who can become targets of similar attacks in the future. This should be the priority. Secondly, putting this behaviour under the spotlight isn't such a bad thing. It's an ugly reality that needs to be confronted, and this attention might force the Arabic community to do something about it. Arab women had to deal with this garbage for a long time. It's about time we dealt with it.

Also the damage to the reputation is not irreversible.

Is there going to be a knee-jerk reaction against the immigrants (whether recent or not)? Unlikely IMO. Also the borders will have to be tightened sooner or later regardless of these events. Europe already took more than a Million refugees in a year and it's doubtful that much more can be admitted.

 

[StatGuy2000]

These are vague projections of the feelings of others, which is unhelpful to addressing the mass assault. Reiterating them as you say, is in my view an attempt via well poisoning to close any discussion about the connection of mass assaults in Germany with enormous levels of immigration. That's not going to happen.

My quote about not reacting with hostility or hatred had nothing to do with specific responses from you or other PF forums, but about the broader rhetoric that is coming out of various places on social media, bloggers, commenters, and elsewhere. Let's keep this in context -- we have a candidate running for the Republican presidential nomination (i.e. Donald Trump) that have specifically called for the temporary ban on all Muslims in the US, and another Republican candidate (i.e. Ted Cruz) who has drafted a bill that specifically allows Syrian Christians to be allowed into the US as refugees (i.e. setting a religious test on who gets into the US). One of my many concerns (on top of the obvious concern about the safety of citizens in European countries) is that the mass assaults that have occurred there could be used as a pretext by right-wing groups to bolster support for such measures in the US, which (in the US context) are clearly bigoted, unconstitutional, and un-American.

As for your point about trying to poison any discussion connecting the mass assaults in Germany with enormous levels of immigration -- I am doing absolutely no such thing (and frankly find the very suggestion absurd). What I am doing is engaging and debating you and others about the Syrian refugee crisis, the events in Germany, and what steps should be taken to address the myriad issues that arise, in a manner that is civil, respectful but nonetheless vigorous. I feel that the General Discussion forum here is an appropriate venue to have that debate.

I do not expect everyone on this forum to agree with my views (how boring would that be), nor should I be expected to agree with you or anyone else. That's the fun of having an open discussion and debate.

 

[jack476]

The link Russ posted says "a majority"

There is also this: https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...1ed4c8-b584-11e5-8abc-d09392edc612_story.html which says"Out of the 34 suspects, 21 were asylum seekers — and the majority of those, the spokesman said, arrived this past year. The 34 reportedly include 10 Algerians, 10 Moroccans, five Iranians, four Syrians, two Germans, one American, one Serbian and one Iraqi."

In looking this up, I ran across this: http://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation-world/world/article53711815.html which has this gem: 'Mohamed T. was reported to have been carrying what appeared to be a handwritten cheat sheet for sexual intimidation. The list had phrases in Arabic translated into German. The phrases included “I want to (have sex),” “I want to kiss you,” “Big breasts,” “I have a surprise” and most chillingly “I will kill you.”'

Well in that case, we do seem to have a problem.

Exactly what the reports have said, a mass sexual assault, the like of which is "unheard of" in Germany, by a crowd of up to 1000 Arabic or N. African young men. At this point, I'm uninterested in whether they arrived last week or ten years ago.

The reports did not say that 1000 men attacked those women, they said that there was an unruly crowd of between 400 and 600 men and a smaller group of organized attackers was using the disturbance caused by the crowd as cover. Even if they were coordinating with the crowd or were deliberately stirring a mob incident to use as cover, the police response should be the same as for any riot incident because if you disperse the crowd then you remove that cover.

No, I don't know that Germany has ever seen organized groups of sexual attackers using a riot as cover, that's a unique form of mob violence, but only in its presentation. It's still a form of mob violence, and the police are equipped to deal with that.

Incidents like this are always going to be freak occurrences, and there's not really a lot that can be done to truly prevent freak occurrences. Nonetheless, in light of V50's links, it does seem to be an indicator of an underlying problem of refugees engaging in criminal behavior. The most direct solution would be police action, if that doesn't work then it would become prudent to talk about indirect solutions by way of immigration reform.

 

[rootone]

The right wing elements in Europe are not in general making too big an issue of what religion the refugees may be.
Their primary obsession seems to be that a high proportion of the immigrants are not actually refugees but are opportunist 'economic migrants'.
(I have no idea to what extent that is actually true. but some cases of faked/duplicated Syrian ID papers are known).
One frequently hears from the right complaints that these immigrants are 'taking jobs which should be available for locals', whilst at the same time 'taking advantage of generous social welfare benefits'.
They can't have it both ways, if an individual is employed they are not entitled to any welfare claim relating to being unemployed.

 

[russ_watters]

It's a miserable English Saturday night and the weather is awful...

Seems to be a "miserable English Saturday" afternoon in Pennsylvania as well...

Is the Arabic community living in Europe going to have a bad reputation as a result of this? Quite possibly, but so be it. If sharing some of the burden and the shame of these acts is the price we need to pay to have a frank discussion about them, then, speaking as an Arab, I'm happy to pay the price. First and foremost trying to be PC and censor the discussion is an insult to the actual victims of the attacks and a betrayal to the women who can become targets of similar attacks in the future.

Not that it's the most important aspect, but it is also an insult to those in the community, such as yourself, who are willing to stand up and both take the heat and speak-out frankly about the issue. Such issues exist for lots of different groups. Similarly, I'm [kinda] a Christian and there are several different Christian communities that have put it in a bad light, such as another recent abortion clinic shooting. It's painful to be associated with that, but to try to hide from the association would be disingenuous and, as you say, disrespectful. And on a practical level makes it harder to fix the problem.

 

[russ_watters]

As for your point about trying to poison any discussion connecting the mass assaults in Germany with enormous levels of immigration -- I am doing absolutely no such thing (and frankly find the very suggestion absurd).

C'mon. You did indeed say we shouldn't even be discussing the connection because no connection exists, despite clear - if thin/preliminary - evidence that a connection did exist. And poison the well by bringing the issue of reactive hatred into the discussion when no one here has expressed any.

What I am doing is engaging and debating you and others about the Syrian refugee crisis, the events in Germany, and what steps should be taken to address the myriad issues that arise, in a manner that is civil, respectful but nonetheless vigorous.

Not as a moderator, but as a fellow participant in the debate, I ask you to try harder and to add logical to the list.

Let's keep this in context -- we have a candidate running for the Republican presidential nomination (i.e. Donald Trump) that have specifically called for the temporary ban on all Muslims in the US, and another Republican candidate (i.e. Ted Cruz) who has drafted a bill that specifically allows Syrian Christians to be allowed into the US as refugees (i.e. setting a religious test on who gets into the US). One of my many concerns (on top of the obvious concern about the safety of citizens in European countries) is that the mass assaults that have occurred there could be used as a pretext by right-wing groups to bolster support for such measures in the US, which (in the US context) are clearly bigoted, unconstitutional, and un-American.

Are we allowed to discuss that without being pegged as racists for bringing-up the question? Let's try: what criteria may the US government use to decide on who and how many immigrants/refugees to let in?

 

[256bits]

Is the Arabic community living in Europe going to have a bad reputation as a result of this? Quite possibly, but so be it. If sharing some of the burden and the shame of these acts is the price we need to pay to have a frank discussion about them, then, speaking as an Arab, I'm happy to pay the price. First and foremost trying to be PC and censor the discussion is an insult to the actual victims of the attacks and a betrayal to the women who can become targets of similar attacks in the future. This should be the priority. Secondly, putting this behaviour under the spotlight isn't such a bad thing. It's an ugly reality that needs to be confronted, and this attention might force the Arabic community to do something about it. Arab women had to deal with this garbage for a long time. It's about time we dealt with it.

Also the damage to the reputation is not irreversible.

Is there going to be a knee-jerk reaction against the immigrants (whether recent or not)? Unlikely IMO. Also the borders will have to be tightened sooner or later regardless of these events. Europe already took more than a Million refugees in a year and it's doubtful that much more can be admitted.

Something strange about this whole story in Cologne.
1000 drunken men, gang sexual attacks - how did they get that number. Pick a number, any number?? Prove it. I don't see any proof yet.

117 reported cases -
no one reports to the police til how much later after being assaulted.
Media coverup accusations, and/or delay in the reporting.
Police are so inept that they can't tell when something odd is going on.

Swarming is a known method used by groups to acquire (steal ) stuff from individuals or groups of 2 or three people. Police are usually aware that such practices occur, and it should have been easy to spot that this was going on amongst the revelers, and called in reinforcements with the knowledge that gangs were working the crowd, and taken action immediately.

Fireworks allowed ? that is really bizarre. No checks of what people can bring into this area?

Also the damage to the reputation is not irreversible.
Possibly,
Sorry about that. I am not of Cologne, but someone mentioned this,
The list had phrases in Arabic translated into German. The phrases included “I want to (have sex),” “I want to kiss you,” “Big breasts,” “I have a surprise” and most chillingly “I will kill you.”' Which leads me to believe that somewhere along the line, these individuals with the list were just dupes. ( Is the translation Arabic to English or Germain to English, journalism ain't what it used to be to check all the facts before publishing in this Internet age ). A nice tidbit of inflammatory information for the masses, but for the journalist - you somehow found this out if true, (or is it heresay - no source listed ), do some investigation and find out and report who gave the list to the person, why, when.

It seems that the pips and squeeks from Internet reporting may not always be the most responsible.

 

[StatGuy2000]

C'mon. You did indeed say we shouldn't even be discussing the connection because no connection exists, despite clear - if thin/preliminary - evidence that a connection did exist. And poison the well by bringing the issue of reactive hatred into the discussion when no one here has expressed any.

russ, here are my exact quotes on this previous thread:

"mheslep, you know that being "Arab" or "North African" includes groups from at least 25 countries, right? Including Turkey -- there is a large Turkish community in Germany, many of whom have been established there since the 1960s if I'm not mistaken, and certainly many Turks can be mistaken for being "Arab" or "North African" in appearance. You can't therefore conclude that somehow these young men are Syrian refugees (which you are clearly trying to link in your posts)."

"According to reports I've read, some of the suspects have been known to police for other types of crimes, which to me indicates that these are members of organized gangs involved in a range of criminal activity. Sexually assaulting 90 women is new because we're hearing about it now, but there is no link as of yet that this is in any way tied to the refugee situation."

These were posted back last Thursday, when at the time there wasn't evidence that Syrian refugees were involved in the mass assaults. Now there is some preliminary reports that there may have been some Syrian refugees/asylum seekers/immigrants involved. As you can clearly see, I was making the argument that we should not jump to conclusions and make a link between the refugee crisis and these mass assaults without more information.

As for poisoning the well by talking about reactive hatred -- again, at no time did I say that anyone on this forum expressed reactive hatred. What I was saying was that right-wing elements in the US (e.g. Donald Trump, Ted Cruz, Fox News commentators) have sought to link the mass assaults to the Syrian refugee crisis and therefore insinuate that Syrian refugees are dangerous. I have heard similar talk coming out of Germany from right wing elements that sought to inflame public opinion by pointing to the mass assaults and thus blame Syrian refugees as a group. That is what I am responding to when I choose to bring up the reactive hatred.

Not as a moderator, but as a fellow participant in the debate, I ask you to try harder and to add logical to the list.

russ, my arguments and counter-arguments are based on the information that I have gathered from various different news and documentary sources online and in print (the CBC and documentaries on TVO in Canada, PBS Newshour, BBC, Al Jazeera, the Young Turks website, VICE news, the Economist, among many others). I am taking the evidence, making logical inferences to the best of my ability, and then responding to the forum. I am not posting these threads lightly.

Are we allowed to discuss that without being pegged as racists for bringing-up the question? Let's try: what criteria may the US government use to decide on who and how many immigrants/refugees to let in?

russ, for question #1, what are you specifically asking? Whether you are allowed to ask to have a discussion on whether people can be denied the right to immigrate to the US based on their religion (i.e. religious test)? Whether such a question should even be asked? My answer is another question, what is the point of bringing up the question?

As for question #2, each government in different countries can use their own particular set of rules and regulations on the number of immigrants that are allowed to come in. These may include opportunities for employment, family reunification, and other such criteria. My personal bias is to allow greater flexibility in allowing people to immigrate to the US, in much the same way and using the same criteria that Canada (where I live -- I am a dual Canadian/American citizen) does.

Specifically on the number of refugees, I think the current Liberal government under Prime Minister Trudeau is carrying out the right balance of ensuring at refugees who wish to come to Canada are able to do so while also carrying out reasonable security measures. So far, Canada has committed to bringing in 25000 Syrian refugees into Canada by early this year (this is in addition to 23,218 Iraqi refugees resettled in Canada as of Nov 2015 and the 3089 Syrian refugees who have already arrived between Jan 2014 and Nov 2015, and the tens of thousands of regular immigrants who arrive to Canada on a monthly basis).

http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/refugees/welcome/index.asp

http://www.international.gc.ca/development-developpement/humanitarian_response-situations_crises/syria-syrie.aspx?lang=engThe above links are from the official Canadian government website outlining their efforts regarding the Syrian refugees (I admit that these links are biased in favour of the current government policy of the day, but at least it should give you an idea of what Canada is doing on this issue). I think the US has the resources to do something similar, but again, that's just my opinion.

 

[mheslep]

broader rhetoric

Yes, rhetoric, hurtful to some, as rhetoric always is. There are no safe spaces.

Let's keep this in context -- we have a candidate running for the Republican presidential nomination (i.e. Donald Trump)

I have little doubt that there is some fringe EU politician or political hopeful running around spouting hate about immigrants, which would be much closer to events at hand, but would still be mostly irrelevant because though these guys pop up they fail, remain in the minority of the minority.

So yes, please keep this context, the assaults, Germany, the EU, mass immigration into the EU from the ME. Trump on the other side of the world and his (so far voteless) shannanigans are not it.

"We have a candidate ..."? Arent you Canadian?

 

[jack476]

Yes, rhetoric, hurtful to some, as rhetoric always is. There are no safe spaces.

Careful not to cut yourself on that edge.

I have little doubt that there is some fringe EU politician or political hopeful running around spouting hate about immigrants, which would be much closer to events at hand, but would still be mostly irrelevant because though these guys pop up they fail, remain in the minority of the minority.

So yes, please keep this context, the assaults, Germany, the EU, mass immigration into the EU from the ME. Trump on the other side of the world and his (so far voteless) shannanigans are not it.

Yes, Trump and most people like him are unelectable idiots, and it's been shown time and again that polls say nothing about how likely a candidate is to actually succeed in the election. What's worrying isn't the possibility that he could be elected, it's the fact that in the space of less than a year he's gone from being a running gag about American celebrities to having a sizable portion of the country believe he should be the President and that shift in public opinion has been driven primarily by what can only be called hate speech. I'm not worried about a Trump presidency, I'm worried about what's changed in the public attitude to make it so that he hasn't been laughed out of the race yet like he was the last time he ran.

 

[Dotini]

what's changed in the public attitude

A good question. There are many currently trying to understand and explain this phenomenon. I liken it to a prairie fire.

 

[StatGuy2000]

"We have a candidate ..."? Arent you Canadian?

I was born in Japan to an American father and a Japanese mother, and raised in Canada. Therefore, I am a dual Canadian/American citizen (American by birth, Canadian by naturalization).