What are the potential solutions for the EU refugee crisis?

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In summary, the EU and refugee crises are a problem. Astronuc created a thread concerning the issue but it doesn't seem to be attracting much attention. There is discussion of what to do about the problem, but there are some flaws in the ideas being discussed. There is also a problem of nationalism reducing effectiveness of state apparatus of repression.
  • #141
Sophia said:
But the question is, do all Muslims believe that?
No, this was not the question. The proposal by Nikkkom was whether or not to "not allow immigration of adherents of the view that "those who leave Islam should be killed"? " Why change it to your generalized strawman? The US naturalization Oath of Allegiance suggests a starting point:

...I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty, of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen...
 
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  • #142
mheslep said:
No, this was not the question. The proposal by Nikkkom was whether or not to "not allow immigration of adherents of the view that "those who leave Islam should be killed"? "
I disagree.

Nikkkom quotes HossamCFD, who wrote:

You can judge Islam all you want. I'm not particularly a fan of it myself. But there's a difference between disliking a religion and banning its adherents from entering a country.

Then nikkkom replied, immediately following this quote:

nikkkom said:
Adherents of the view that "Jews weren't killed in the millions by Nazis" get jailed in many European countries.

Why would it be a horrible, completely unacceptable thing to not allow immigration of adherents of the view that "those who leave Islam should be killed"? Not jailed. Not fined. Merely not allowed to enter the country. Immigration is not a right, it is a privilege.

Thereby, in my opinion, he took the "adherents" from Hossam's quote (i.e. muslims) and attributed to them, indiscriminately and non-specifically, the belief that "those who leave Islam should be killed". He may not have meant to make such a generalization, but this surely is the strong suggestion that speaks from his post.
 
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  • #143
I understood it the same way as Krylov did.
There may have been a misunderstanding, of course.
 
  • #144
Sophia said:
But the question is, do all Muslims believe that?

According to Pew Research Center in 2012, 63,6% of Egyptian Muslims do. 58% of Palestinian and Jordanian Muslims do. 78% of Afghan Muslims do. 63% of Pakistani Muslims do.

But if people pass security check, why should they be denied help just because of their religion?

Because immigration laws of a country are meant to work foremost for the benefit of this country, not the benefit of the people asking to enter it.

Do you object to people being "discriminated" regarding immigration based on age, when young men with University degree are much more likely to get a visa than 65 year old men, also with University degree? That's "blatant discrimination", yes? How dare this country to suspect that this old man will not be able to find a job and will need to be cared for!
 
  • #145
I think we are talking about two different groups now. One thing is economic migration. That's I think what you are talking about.
But in this situation, the immigrants are people from Syria running from war areas. If we want to help those people, shouldn't we first think about their circumstances and consider who is having more difficulties instead of their religion? Especially when we decided to accept less than 150 people (which I agree with) our main purpose should be charity.
There is also another aspect. It's the Catholic Church trying to gain more power in Slovakia. It was their idea and they are starting to be more and more politically active. That irritates many people and view this discrimination as Church's attempt to gain influence over public matters. They have been attempting that since 1990.
If, however, we are speaking about economic migration, than yes, we definitely should be more picky. Anyway, no one would even want to go here :) Those 149 immigrants will go away, too, as soon as they can :D.
 
  • #146
http://news.yahoo.com/crossing-to-l...ntlines-of-the-refugee-crisis--034222258.html
In 2015 so far, 751,873 migrants — mostly from Syria but also Afghanistan, Iraq, Pakistan and other war-torn countries — have made their way through Turkey to Greece by sea, often crammed into unstable inflatable dinghies. By the time Bronstein arrived in late October, winter weather was already setting in, making the short boat ride more dangerous and, in some cases, deadly.
A quarter of a million migrants/refugees is an enormous problem, to say the least.
 
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  • #147
Cologne suffers gang sexual assaults on women on new year's eve
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35231046
The scale of the attacks on women at the city's central railway station has shocked Germany. About 1,000 drunk and aggressive young men were involved.

City police chief Wolfgang Albers called it "a completely new dimension of crime". The men were of Arab or North African appearance, he said.

Absolutely despicable...Sickening

The Guardian reports that
Authorities and media were accused of a cover-up linked to initial indications that those allegedly responsible for the attacks, which also included numerous robberies, were of Arab and north African origin, according to the police.
There is no room for PC in situations like that.
 
  • #148
HossamCFD said:
Cologne suffers gang sexual assaults on women on new year's eve
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35231046

That's worrying, but something about it just seems a little off, for lack of a better word. Perhaps that's why the BBC article included this disclaimer:

However, there was no official confirmation that asylum seekers had been involved in the violence. Commentators in Germany were quick to urge people not to jump to conclusions.

Hmm...

Absolutely despicable...Sickening

The Guardian reports that

There is no room for PC in situations like that.

Speaking of, the Guardian reports in that same article that

Critics of Merkel’s open-door policy on refugees were quick to blame it for the attacks, despite the police’s insistence that the alleged perpetrators were not new arrivals.

(Emphasis mine).

Lastly, according to that same article, the "accusations of media cover up" came from Twitter, which as we all know is surely a bastion of rational thinking and level-headed, critical evaluation of the facts.

Please, let's try to not lose our heads over this. Rape investigations are difficult enough, for the police and especially for the victims, without everyone trying to make the incidents into a soapbox for issues that are at most tangential to the matter.
 
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  • #149
jack476 said:
That's worrying, but something about it just seems a little off, for lack of a better word. Perhaps that's why the BBC article included this disclaimer:

Thanks for the clarification. I too am waiting for the follow up investigation. The BBC article did include this bit as well, just before the disclaimer:
A policeman told the city's Express news website that he had detained eight suspects. "They were all asylum seekers, carrying copies of their residence certificates," he said.
Caution seems to be the keyword.
 
  • #150
jack476 said:
...
Please, let's try to not lose our heads over this. Rape investigations are difficult enough, for the police and especially for the victims, without everyone trying to make the incidents into a soapbox for issues that are at most tangential to the matter.
This event as described does not warrant the typical "rape investigation", which would be appropriate for an isolated or serial event. A mob of a 1000 young men is described, and many dozens of women were assaulted on one night. Other issues are involved and describing them as tangential at the outset is misleading. Rotherham is an example of what happens under such pretense.
 
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  • #151
HossamCFD said:
Caution seems to be the keyword.
For women in Cologne.
 
  • #152
mheslep said:
This event as described does not warrant the typical "rape investigation", which would be appropriate for an isolated or serial event. A mob of a 1000 young men is described, and many dozens of women were assaulted on one night. Other issues are involved and describing them as tangential at the outset is misleading. Rotherham is an example of what happens under such pretense.

Sure, other issues are involved because nothing happens in a vacuum, but stressing out about immigrants and refugees really just seems counterproductive, especially given that it's not yet been made clear whether these were refugees.

My point is that riots and mobs are not a new thing, and this should be dealt with like any other mob incident and the same measures should be taken to prevent it from happening again, that's what's necessary to deal with the immediate safety threat, whereas trying to deal with the problem by way of immigration policy just seems clumsy and not optimal, and really unfair to the majority of immigrants and refugees who are not criminals.
 
  • #153
jack476 said:
...especially given that it's not yet been made clear whether these were refugees.
Everything report I've seen today stated the young men were either Arab or N. African.

My point is that riots and mobs are not a new thing...
That sexually assaulted some 90 women in Germany? Of course it is a new thing. This was not a window breaking riot. Why continue to mislable what has been reported?
 
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  • #154
jack476 said:
... really unfair to the majority of immigrants and refugees who are not criminals.
A theoretical concern. The assault on the 90 women is not theoretical.
 
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  • #155
I used to be quite tolerant but now I'm really starting to be concerned.
Like advice people not to have fireworks so that they are not traumatised? No Christmas symbols? Leaflets about not eating in the street during Ramadan?
I don't want to be openly racist so that I don't get banned but we have had one minority in our country for more than 500 years. We did not colonise them, they came voluntarily.
They still haven't assimilated and they are a huge problem. They refuse to work, don't send their children to school and they are becoming more aggressive. I'm really afraid when I see bunch of them drunk and shouting. They will kill an old lady for a pack of cigarettes. Parents send their underage kids to steal because they can't be punished. In their culture, hurting white person is completely OK. They robbed our family shop 4 times. What's more, just one day later one of their family came asking for cigarettes for free because you know, they are in prison and don't have money. True story. This is how they think after 500 years of being here!
So after recent news I'm really afraid that the situation with refugees may be similar.
Don't get me wrong, I was born in yugoslavia and saw some horrible things. I'm against civil war and I considered becoming a Muslim for a while.
But what is happening now changed my former opinions. I don't want them in the EU.
 
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  • #156
mheslep said:
Everything report I've seen today stated the young men were either Arab or N. African.
mheslep, you know that being "Arab" or "North African" includes groups from at least 25 countries, right? Including Turkey -- there is a large Turkish community in Germany, many of whom have been established there since the 1960s if I'm not mistaken, and certainly many Turks can be mistaken for being "Arab" or "North African" in appearance. You can't therefore conclude that somehow these young men are Syrian refugees (which you are clearly trying to link in your posts).

That sexually assaulted some 90 women in Germany? Of course it is a new thing. This was not a window breaking riot. Why continue to mislable what has been reported?

According to reports I've read, some of the suspects have been known to police for other types of crimes, which to me indicates that these are members of organized gangs involved in a range of criminal activity. Sexually assaulting 90 women is new because we're hearing about it now, but there is no link as of yet that this is in any way tied to the refugee situation.
 
  • #157
StatGuy2000 said:
You can't therefore conclude that somehow these young men are Syrian refugees (which you are clearly trying to link in your posts).
So far, that's your association in this thread, not mine. So far, the reports from German officials say the attackers were "North African or Arabic"
StatGuy2000 said:
Sexually assaulting 90 women is new because we're hearing about it now,...

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...s--men-accused--nye-sexual-assaults/78304442/
German Justice Minister Heiko Maas said at the news conference. "This has never happened before, at least not in these dimensions."

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35231046
City police chief Wolfgang Albers called it "a completely new dimension of crime". The men were of Arab or North African appearance, he said.
 
  • #158
German police rethinking tactics after Cologne sex attacks
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35248601

Similar attacks have been happening in Egypt for a long time, pretty much every Eid or other major holidays. It's disgusting and CANNOT become a frequent occurrence in Europe. There must be an appropriate response to prevent it from happening again.

Mr Jaeger also warned that anti-immigrant groups were trying to use the attacks to stir up hatred against refugees.

"What happens on the right-wing platforms and in chatrooms is at least as awful as the acts of those assaulting the women," he said.

I don't agree with this equivalence. Anti-immigration rhetoric is in my opinion a secondary concern compared to the actual physical attacks on women en mass.
 
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  • #159
StatGuy2000 said:
mheslep, you know that being "Arab" or "North African" includes groups from at least 25 countries, right? Including Turkey -- there is a large Turkish community in Germany, many of whom have been established there since the 1960s if I'm not mistaken, and certainly many Turks can be mistaken for being "Arab" or "North African" in appearance. You can't therefore conclude that somehow these young men are Syrian refugees (which you are clearly trying to link in your posts).
Big caveat: until the perpetrators are caught, we can't be sure who they are.

The link I see is not to Syria specifically, it is to the general latent Islamic extremism that - borne of ISIS "sympathy" - is currently a growing problem in the West. The fear triggered in me is that this will become a new fad, similar to the random knifings.
 
  • #160
russ_watters said:
The link I see is not to Syria specifically, it is to the general latent Islamic extremism that - borne of ISIS "sympathy" - is currently a growing problem in the West.
Is this regarding the Cologne incident or just in general? Most reports of the Cologne attack described the men as drunk, hardly a sign of observant muslims, let alone extremists.
 
  • #161
mheslep said:
Everything report I've seen today stated the young men were either Arab or N. African.

Yes, because everyone who is "Arab or North African in appearance" is a refugee. The reports indicated that they were not recent arrivals, nor did they say anything about the nationality of the offenders.

That sexually assaulted some 90 women in Germany? Of course it is a new thing. This was not a window breaking riot. Why continue to mislable what has been reported?

So what exactly are you labeling it as, and what does the nationality of the attackers have to do with it, and how is anything to do with immigration policy and response to the refugee crisis going to prevent this from happening in the future?

mheslep said:
A theoretical concern. The assault on the 90 women is not theoretical.

Neither is concern for the safety of people who have been displaced by civil war being put further at risk just because some people who looked like they were from a similar part of the world as the refugees turned out to be criminals.
 
  • #162
Sophia said:
I used to be quite tolerant but now I'm really starting to be concerned.
...
I don't want to be openly racist so that I don't get banned but we have had one minority in our country for more than 500 years. We did not colonise them, they came voluntarily.
They still haven't assimilated..
That may be leading us off topic, but it is worth noting that Europe only cast-off nationalism/xenophobia as standard policy/philosophy at the end of WWII. Cultures do not necessarily change that fast and pockets of such strife still often simmer to the surface. The high density of diverse populations with arbitrary borders drawn around them has been a problem for thousands of years.

In my view, part of the current problem is that Europe thought (or didn't think about?) that by erasing the borders, such issues would go away. But governments can't erase the borders people draw around themselves.
 
  • #163
HossamCFD said:
Is this regarding the Cologne incident or just in general?
Both, because my fear is that gang sexual assaults could become a new fad. You seemed to indicate it is somewhat common in Muslim countries, and that increases my fear that it may be exported to the West.
Most reports of the Cologne attack described the men as drunk, hardly a sign of observant muslims, let alone extremists.
My understanding is the Boston bomber was a party animal too: extremist is not necessarily equivalent to strict fundamentalist.
 
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  • #164
russ_watters said:
In my view, part of the current problem is that Europe thought (or didn't think about?) that by erasing the borders, such issues would go away. But governments can't erase the borders people draw around themselves.

Not by force, no, because people in their natural state fear the unknown and unfamiliar. But the best and only way to prevent and eliminate prejudice and bigotry is to expose people to the unknown and unfamiliar to teach them that it is not to be feared.

In an increasingly globalized world you can't just expect that there's never going to be occurrences where large numbers of people from very different backgrounds are going to have to interact with each other. Failure to properly inoculate people against the knee-jerk tendency to become anxious in the presence of unfamiliar people is how we end up unprepared to deal with things like the refugee crisis.
 
  • #165
jack476 said:
Not by force, no, because people in their natural state fear the unknown and unfamiliar. But the best and only way to prevent and eliminate prejudice and bigotry is to expose people to the unknown and unfamiliar to teach them that it is not to be feared.

In an increasingly globalized world you can't just expect that there's never going to be occurrences where large numbers of people from very different backgrounds are going to have to interact with each other. Failure to properly inoculate people against the knee-jerk tendency to become anxious in the presence of unfamiliar people is how we end up unprepared to deal with things like the refugee crisis.
Oh, I agree, my point was just that the government can't erase the borders and just assume everything will be fine. It applies in both situations:

-Europe erased the borders and then didn't know what to do when people crossed them that it didn't want.

-To Sophia's point, erasing the borders doesn't erase the borders cloistered communities draw around themselves and may stir the pot, prompting either reconciliation or lashing out.
 
  • #166
Thats right, things are changing now.
I think that 90% of Europeans are not racist. In my opinion, the problem is, that each attempt to discuss problems associated with migration is immediately banned as "racist". I understand this, we still bear WWII stigma. Everyone can see where even innocent accusation can eventually lead.
But on the other hand, we simply can't pretend, as authorities try to to persuade us, that there are no differences. The problem is that people of other cultures are given so many rights that they clash with our culture in many occasions. Like noisy groups of 2nd and 3rd generations of immigants leaving a horrible mess after themselves in the park. Or the slow attempts to ban European (whatever that means) culture in order not to insult them. I think everyone should be allowed to practise their culture as long as they don't suppress the other.
I have absolutely nothing against Muslim women wearing hijab, but I want to eat my fastfood in the street during Ramadan. Or should they not eat during our lent? Or why should they get apartments for free when our own young families have to live with their parents or make a debt for the rest of their lives? Why don't our homeless get free living? But now refugees will get everything. Can you see what I mean? This is not about racism at all. It's about justice and equal rights.
I absolutely do not care if their skin is purple with green dots or if they want to pray to the Chocolate Goddess. They are totally free to do so! But we have some basic standards about behaving in the public and old rule saying that my rights cannot oppress the rights of other people.
It seems that we are just so tolerant that eventually, this is going to lead to some huge problems, maybe even some kind of civil war.
 
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  • #167
Sophia said:
pray to the Chocolate Goddess
A divine woman made of chocolate... That might convert even me.
 
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  • #168
russ_watters said:
Both, because my fear is that gang sexual assaults could become a new fad. You seemed to indicate it is somewhat common in Muslim countries, and that increases my fear that it may be exported to the West.
My understanding is the Boston bomber was a party animal too: extremist is not necessarily equivalent to strict fundamentalist.
I see what you mean. And it does seem that disentangling what's religious from what's cultural is a bit subjective. I might just be arguing semantics but IMO just because something is common in Muslim communities (and I'm not actually sure that is the case, I don't know if it's common in non-Arabic Muslim communities) is not enough to label it "Islamic Extremism". I think the action itself has to be done to further the cause of Islam in the mind of the perpetrator, which is the case for the Boston bomber but not the Cologne attacks.
 
  • #169
russ_watters said:
Big caveat: until the perpetrators are caught, we can't be sure who they are.

The link I see is not to Syria specifically, it is to the general latent Islamic extremism that - borne of ISIS "sympathy" - is currently a growing problem in the West. The fear triggered in me is that this will become a new fad, similar to the random knifings.

I agree with you that until a proper investigation is conducted and the perpetrators are caught, we are only engaging in speculation as to who they are.

However, it is important that we not conflate Islamic extremism (more specifically with sympathy for ISIS or similar jihadist groups) and gang attacks in Cologne (of whom we only have a vague idea as to the identity of these people). These are two distinct issues.

From what I have read or heard from scholars who have studied both terrorism and about the role of religion in society more generally, Islamic extremism of the type exhibited by either ISIS/al Qaeda or their sympathizers involve violent conduct to further specific political aims, under the cover of religion (I have even read that many members of ISIS specifically or those who seek to join ISIS were often not even particularly religious to begin with). I can provide specific links from these scholars once I find them.

From what I understand of the attacks in Cologne, these events seem to be more similar to actions carried out by criminal gangs (it is not unheard of for street gangs to carry out harassment or attacks on mass on women, whether in the US or in other countries around the world). I am aware that in France, for example, those of Arab or North African descent often suffer widespread discrimination in areas like employment, housing and policing, not unlike what we witness among African Americans in the US, or among aboriginal peoples in Canada. The social consequences of such social problems are therefore apparent -- higher crime rates, higher incarceration rates, prevalence of street gangs, drug problems, etc. The situation may be similar in Germany as well.
 
  • #170
Just for the record. There have been similar incidents in Hamburg, too. And the number of reported offenses in Cologne is now above 120.
To be pc doesn't solve the problem.
 
  • #171
fresh_42 said:
Just for the record. There have been similar incidents in Hamburg, too. And the number of reported offenses in Cologne is now above 120.
To be pc doesn't solve the problem.

No, "being PC" does not solve the problem, but it is also important that we know exactly what the problem is, and how to solve it. It's important that we not jump to conclusions about who the perpetrators are, and for police to vigorously investigate who are involved in such attacks and they be brought to justice, thus sending a strong signal that these actions are not to be tolerated.

Once we know who precisely are these perpetrators and their particular motivations (e.g. whether the assaults and harassment of women are part of a gang initiation, as has been observed in other countries) then we can determine what steps can be taken by the broader society on what steps can be taken to solve the problem. These steps can't be taken without working closely with Muslim communities. I believe serious people from within the Muslim communities do not tolerate these attacks any more than anyone else, and would be more than happy to contribute to solving this problem if we engage with the community without making them feel besieged or we're scapegoating an entire group of people.
 
  • #172
jack476 said:
So what exactly are you labeling it as, ...
Exactly what the reports have said, a mass sexual assault, the like of which is "unheard of" in Germany, by a crowd of up to 1000 Arabic or N. African young men. At this point, I'm uninterested in whether they arrived last week or ten years ago.
 
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  • #173
HossamCFD said:
I might just be arguing semantics but IMO just because something is common in Muslim communities (and I'm not actually sure that is the case, I don't know if it's common in non-Arabic Muslim communities) is not enough to label it "Islamic Extremism". I think the action itself has to be done to further the cause of Islam in the mind of the perpetrator...
You said this is common and tied to Islamic events ("have been happening in Egypt for a long time, pretty much every Eid or other major holidays"). I don't want to hairsplit either and I don't think there is any need to: the connection with islam is there, regardless of what its particular nature/motive is.
...which is the case for the Boston bomber but not the Cologne attacks.
With the same caveat as before (don't know for sure until they are caught), like the above, I'm not seeing a hair to be split there: whatever the specific nature of the connection is, it is.
 
  • #174
russ_watters said:
You said this is common and tied to Islamic events
Oh, just to clarify, the Eid connection is just that it's a public holiday, people go out and crowds are easier to assemble. It's the same reason why the attacks in Cologne and Hamburg happened on new year's.
 
  • #175
StatGuy2000 said:
I agree with you that until a proper investigation is conducted and the perpetrators are caught, we are only engaging in speculation as to who they are.

However, it is important that we not conflate Islamic extremism (more specifically with sympathy for ISIS or similar jihadist groups) and gang attacks in Cologne (of whom we only have a vague idea as to the identity of these people). These are two distinct issues.
Speculation, perhaps, but not idle speculation. We've been given the connection. It may turn out to be inaccurate, we have it. It's there. They are not "distinct issues" per the information we have available.
From what I have read or heard from scholars who have studied both terrorism and about the role of religion in society more generally, Islamic extremism of the type exhibited by either ISIS/al Qaeda or their sympathizers involve violent conduct to further specific political aims, under the cover of religion (I have even read that many members of ISIS specifically or those who seek to join ISIS were often not even particularly religious to begin with). I can provide specific links from these scholars once I find them.
Ok...I don't disagree, so I don't need you to provide such links (someone else may ask).
From what I understand of the attacks in Cologne, these events seem to be more similar to actions carried out by criminal gangs (it is not unheard of for street gangs to carry out harassment or attacks on mass on women, whether in the US or in other countries around the world). I am aware that in France, for example, those of Arab or North African descent often suffer widespread discrimination in areas like employment, housing and policing, not unlike what we witness among African Americans in the US, or among aboriginal peoples in Canada. The social consequences of such social problems are therefore apparent -- higher crime rates, higher incarceration rates, prevalence of street gangs, drug problems, etc. The situation may be similar in Germany as well.
"Not unheard of", sure, in broad strokes, but also not common - it's pretty rare and I've never heard of an incident that large. In either case, that's all a reasonable possibility. I'm not real clear what your point is though: are you simply claiming it may not be terrorism? I agree, it might not be. Indeed, you're the first to use the word. Not every crime done in the name of islamic extremism is necessarily terrorism.

Indeed, in some ways it would indicate an even bigger problem if the perpetrators were culturally motivated and only indirectly religiously motivated. We're seeing a problem similar to what you describe in the US: people being incited to violence based on inflated racial tensions. Mob violence where people somehow become pulled into the conflicts of others they don't even necessarily agree with inflates the problem way beyond the extremists themselves.
 

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