What is the newest installment of 'Random Thoughts' on Physics Forums?

[Posty McPostface]

Why wouldn’t university be free? I would say there is something wrong if it isn’t.

I agree with that, and wholeheartedly believe that education is a basic right to self-determination and enrichment both financial and "spiritual" status as well as the prosperity and success of a nation. However, there's no free lunch and this place is no exception. So, to preserve this forum or what I referred to as a type of self-guided knowledge database based on the goodwill of the many mentors and other academic minded members, then some funding is necessary.

I understand that advertising and other means fulfills that goal; but, well, I wish there were some PF mutual fund/trust or some other charitable means of organizing funds, which could be organized to help sustain, promote, and expand PF's activities.

 

[lekh2003]

I agree with that, and wholeheartedly believe that education is a basic right to self-determination and enrichment both financial and "spiritual" status as well as the prosperity and success of a nation.

I think that some countries have designed exorbitantly high minimum wages such that if you work part time, you should be able to study part time at the same time without generating debt, of course this only a viable option for citizens since the university tuition cost is lower for citizens. I think this is also why Australia has such a large minimum wage.

 

[Orodruin]

I agree with that, and wholeheartedly believe that education is a basic right to self-determination and enrichment both financial and "spiritual" status as well as the prosperity and success of a nation.

Apart from that, I think it is actually a good economic decision for the nation as a whole. Not only in terms of personal values, but also in economical terms. If education is not freely available you will lose a chance for educating a productive highly educated workforce. In the future job market, qualified jobs are likely to show a great deficit in available workers. Furthermore, I believe that state-paid education overall is cheaper than having a system where universities are privatised and you have to pay enormous tuition fees because they are run like for-profit companies. The same of course goes for health care. So what if you have to pay a bit more taxes? (And it is generally not that much.) The benefits that you get from paying those extra taxes far outweigh the money that you pay. My taxes are probably my best investment ever.

 

[Posty McPostface]

Yeah, the science is sound about education and future prospects of... well every domain of a persons life, since we're talking about human capital here.

Military gets so much in funding that, for example, by doing nuke for the NAVY you can just spend 2 years at a college that accepts credit from your technical school and graduate with two degrees in ME and EE. It's the German model of education, and it works! I just don't understand why more colleges don't accept technical school credits from the military in the United States; but, that's redundant given the Montgomery GI Bill, but that's a waste to the taxpayer if you can transfer the credits over and get the whole thing done in half the time.

 

[WWGD]

Why wouldn’t university be free? I would say there is something wrong if it isn’t.

I sort of agree, but there is a downside. Many times you end up with unmotivated students wasting their time and taxpayer money who would not likely be there if it was not free. I know by experience.

 

[WWGD]

Nice trick: When doing screenshots, paste into a Paint program to make it easier to change size, edit in general. EDIT: Of course, paste into other source after editing, if needed.

 

[fresh_42]

I sort of agree, but there is a downside. Many times you end up with unmotivated students wasting their time and taxpayer money who would not likely be there if it was not free. I know by experience.

This is basically true, but the amount of taxpayer money is usually, well, infinitesimal. Reason: These cases often occur in studies which aren't very popular or occupy intense lab capacities, will say, it simply doesn't matter, whether there are 30 or 32 students in the lecture about Relevance of Salon de Refusés for the early impressionism. In crowded or care intensive studies, they will probably fail to pass the exams. So this taxpayer argument is a typical American one and often simply doesn't apply. At least those suggested extra costs should be proven before claimed. It's a political argument, not an economic one. If all, then laboratory equipment and salaries are affected, not the number of enrolled students.

 

[WWGD]

This is basically true, but the amount of taxpayer money is usually, well, infinitesimal. Reason: These cases often occur in studies which aren't very popular or occupy intense lab capacities, will say, it simply doesn't matter, whether there are 30 or 32 students in the lecture about Relevance of Salon de Refusés for the early impressionism. In crowded or care intensive studies, they will probably fail to pass the exams. So this taxpayer argument is a typical American one and often simply doesn't apply. At least those suggested extra costs should be proven before claimed. It's a political argument, not an economic one. If all, then laboratory equipment and salaries are affected, not the number of enrolled students.

But why would I have the burden of proof and not you ( or both of us)? I don't have numbers , but I did see in my undergrad plenty of people who were just hanging out, playing hacky-sack, and just lowering the standard for those of us who were serious. Nowadays with courses on Frisbee, The Simpsons, etc., you can go on for a while without doing much work ( Thanks, Postmodernism). In order to make themselves look better, some schools will pass some students who are not likely to be able to do any real work. I am not far-right in my politics; actually more slightly Left-ofCenter, but I make an effort to evaluate each issue on its own.

EDIT: One problem I see in Suburban schools is the lack of affordable housing near the school. It seems distance of students home to school is inversely-proportional to GPA. Makes sense; during school, priority should be to be in/near school. And this is related to zoning issues, which is related to...

 

[fresh_42]

But why would I have the burden of proof and not you ( or both of us)?

Because I haven't claimed anything, only doubted yours. I've been long time within the administrative structure, as well as have seen these cases. Now, for mathematics it is usually not a problem, as they don't increase costs and don't show up in high numbers. It is different for studies with a high portion of lab time, e.g. in physics or chemistry, or if they require extra assistance, e.g. more tutorials. But then they have to occur in higher numbers than they do, in my opinion. Studies which are typically more affected than mathematics often are those with low numbers of students anyway. Furthermore there are methods in place to reduce these numbers, e.g. exams and time limitations.

 

[WWGD]

Because I haven't claimed anything, only doubted yours. I've been long time within the administrative structure, as well as have seen these cases. Now, for mathematics it is usually not a problem, as they don't increase costs and don't show up in high numbers. It is different for studies with a high portion of lab time, e.g. in physics or chemistry, or if they require extra assistance, e.g. more tutorials. But then they have to occur in higher numbers than they do, in my opinion. Studies which are typically more affected than mathematics often are those with low numbers of students anyway. Furthermore there are methods in place to reduce these numbers, e.g. exams and time limitations.

You may be right, but, do the properties in Germany apply in the U.S in this regard, i.e., do schools do a good job of filtering out within a reasonable amount of time ( say one year) those people who are not serious? If so, I would agree. There are other issues, at least in U.S schools, like grade inflation: Baby-Boomer professors don't want to fail people, it seems, which makes the filtering more slow , and, for those filtered, more painful -- more time wasted. I I took Philosophy classes ( my minor) with people who could barely write. Maybe I was at a weak school.

So, let's compare : Do you have watered-down courses like "Sociology of the Simpsons" , "Frisbee in modern society" , etc. , as well as grade inflation, teachers who do not want to fail students , in Germany?

 

[fresh_42]

It's probably more the universities. In math, the drop out rate is high in the first year (a nice $e^{-x}$ curve). Students should have the opportunity to find out which study fits them best, and the American system isn't represented by Harvard or CalTech! In Germany already the school system makes a preselection, as not all schools offer the qualification to enroll at a university. And according to my nephews, Europeans learn at school what in America has to happen in the first years of college, but this is certainly not a reliable sample size. So the systems might indeed be incomparable. And the European system doesn't solve the equipment and salary problem, which is why so many first class scientists end up at American universities, which then IS the discussion about Harvard and CalTech.

 

[WWGD]

It's probably more the universities. In math, the drop out rate is high in the first year (a nice $e^{-x}$ curve). Students should have the opportunity to find out which study fits them best, and the American system isn't represented by Harvard or CalTech! In Germany already the school system makes a preselection, as not all schools offer the qualification to enroll at a university. And according to my nephews, Europeans learn at school what in America has to happen in the first years of college, but this is certainly not a reliable sample size. So the systems might indeed be incomparable. And the European system doesn't solve the equipment and salary problem, which is why so many first class scientists end up at American universities, which then IS the discussion about Harvard and CalTech.

I think education ( maybe ability, intelligence?) level in the U.S is largely fat-left-tailed and thin right-tail, with a large proportion with very little and a small proportion with a lot of training, education. I hear in Europe it is closer to a normal distribution. U.S thrives thanks to a few people who produce a lot ( often foreigners, who lead a lot of startups), unlike, I believe, most other places. EDIT: This may be due, as you said, because of the equipment issue, attracting a lot of well-qualified people , trained outside of U.S.

 

[fresh_42]

U.S thrives thanks to a few people who produce a lot ( often foreigners, who lead a lot of startups), unlike, I believe, most other places.

Yep, that's my opinion, too. If we look at the Nobel laureates, it often reads: <name> from <European or Asian country> at <American University>, of course not all, but frequently. Also I think it's far easier to rise venture capital in the US than it is in Europe. Both are severe problems in my opinion, other than a few lazybones in Politics or Art. But it is a different discussion, whether we talk about state of the art or simply the chances to a general education. The discussion about excellence be it universities or students is a different one, than the one about students' debts and common opportunities for the average student.

 

[WWGD]

Yep, that's my opinion, too. If we look at the Nobel laureates, it often reads: <name> from <European or Asian country> at <American University>, of course not all, but frequently. Also I think it's far easier to rise venture capital in the US than it is in Europe. Both are severe problems in my opinion, other than a few lazybones in Politics or Art. But it is a different discussion, whether we talk about state of the art or simply the chances to a general education. The discussion about excellence be it universities or students is a different one, than the one about students' debts and common opportunities for the average student.

Hey, I am no ideologue; if I see data to the effect that free university works, I will change my mind in favor of it. It is just that the U.S has some quirks , so that things that work elsewhere do not always work in here. Maybe a key issue is the "frontier" one where it may be more acceptable to be an outsider here than elsewhere, which may explain the larger rate of shootings, but also allowing some to do their own thing to create without too many social consequences. Just throwing it out there, Friday pop Sociology.

 

[Borek]

OK, in a way that's boasting about myself, but I am frankly amazed

In 1986 I wrote a game for ZX Spectrum. Hard to say whether it was a first Polish game, depends on how you define "game" and "first". Definitely it was a first one written to be sold (no, it didn't made me rich, just a bit famous - https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puszka_Pandory_(gra_komputerowa) ).

We have a charity event here, called the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Orchestra_of_Christmas_Charity . The Grand Finale is in January. People either donate money (I do every year) and/or items for auctions. I happened to have a last copy of the game and I decided to put it on auction: http://aukcje.wosp.org.pl/puszka-pandory-wydanie-oryginalne-z-1986-r-i5919667 .

I would never believe that a 5 min. cassette, with a cover reproduced on xero (anyone remembers these machines?) will draw almost $1k in three days (an I hope it will sell for more, most bidding takes place at the beginning and at the end of on-line auctions).

 

[Posty McPostface]

Perhaps, I'm ignorant; but, I see the biggest obstacle in the US education system in regards to the filtering problem primarily economically.

If people knew what they wanted and knew that they would do well in it in the future financially and in some sense edifyingly, then there wouldn't be the issue of commitment to a major or dropout rates.

The military does this with psychometric ASVAB tests and personality testing.

And I starting to sound like a closet fascist? Sorry.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Paradox_of_Choice

 

[BillTre]

If people knew what they wanted and knew that they would do well in it in the future financially and in some sense edifyingly, then there wouldn't be the issue of commitment to a major or dropout rates.

On my opinion, it is not uncommon to find a mis-match between people's low expectations about what is needed to achieve success and the reality of higher expectations that they may not want to commit to.
Goals may then change.
College is a place where this can happen.

These are events that can change your life plans, including college.

 

[WWGD]

On my opinion, it is not uncommon to find a mis-match between people's low expectations about what is needed to achieve success and the reality of higher expectations that they may not want to commit to.
Goals may then change.
College is a place where this can happen.

These are events that can change your life plans, including college.

I think there is an additional issue of what I call the " Glamor Trap". People who fail because they only want to do the fun part of the job and not the grunt work necessary. Tho maybe this is exactly what you are referring to.

 

[WWGD]

Still, Fresh_Meister, I do agree college should be a place open to as many as possible so they can experiment in an environment that is
reasonably-forgiving before going into the real world which will not always be as forgiving and lenient.

 

[Posty McPostface]

On my opinion, it is not uncommon to find a mis-match between people's low expectations about what is needed to achieve success and the reality of higher expectations that they may not want to commit to.

I'm not quite sure the reasoning behind this. Could you possibly expand on that?

Thank-you.

 

[StoneTemplePython]

On education:

1.)
With respect to college costs and the US and Europe, it's worth reminding people that the Brits do pay for university. A nice overview:
https://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2017/03/daily-chart

(One nit: amusingly, Brits and sometimes The Economist, don't seem to consider themselves European, e.g. I'll see them refer to those 'Europeans' meaning continental Europe.)

2.)
There is some shockingly good free stuff available on the Internet, in particular from MIT and Stanford.

This reminds me that MIT has a new course offering on Edx on Quantum Algorithms / Computing that starts next week. One of the two profs is Peter Shor, of Shor's Algorithm fame.

https://www.edx.org/course/quantum-information-science-i

I am probably going to do it, but you have to put in a lot of work for these courses from MITx.

 

[BillTre]

I'm not quite sure the reasoning behind this. Could you possibly expand on that?

Thank-you.

Yes. WRT:

If people knew what they wanted and knew that they would do well in it in the future financially and in some sense edifyingly, then there wouldn't be the issue of commitment to a major or dropout rates.

I think there are more reasons than just not knowing what they want to do or not knowing where they might expect economic success for people to drop out of college. There can be other reasons like:

a mis-match between people's low expectations about what is needed to achieve success and the reality of higher expectations that they may not want to commit to.

or

the " Glamor Trap". People who fail because they only want to do the fun part of the job and not the grunt work necessary.

 

[Posty McPostface]

I think there are more reasons than just not knowing what they want to do or not knowing where they might expect economic success for people to drop out of college.

Yes, there are a multitude of factors, undoubtedly; but, if an individual knew what they wanted (perhaps the most important factor), then they will work and strive towards that goal despite adversity. I would say that the ability to stick to a goal despite adversity is the best predictor of a students educational prospects.

 

[Psinter]

At the penthouse of this guy I notice that the tableware is heavy and it felt of really good quality to the touch. It was also very shiny. Suddenly, one of the nice housemaids told me that they were made of silver. I noticed he also had an induction stove top surrounded by marble. That was the first time I heard about induction stoves. Since then, I've wanted to get shiny spoons and forks made of silver, and an induction stove as well. But I wonder how much tableware made of silver costs.

It's interesting to watch how these people live. One thing I also noticed was the water coming out of the sink. It was completely silent. I've always hated how the water makes sounds when coming out of my sink. It makes you wonder how they make the water flow with such little resistance that the plumbing/valves makes no detectable sound by the person washing their hands. The water flowed like oil in the sense of making no sound.

I saw the induction stove in action and oh do I tell you it was powerful. I want one.

 

[WWGD]

On education:

1.) (One nit: amusingly, Brits and sometimes The Economist, don't seem to consider themselves European, e.g. I'll see them refer to those 'Europeans' meaning continental Europe.).

I have wondered if the Chunnel ( Channel Tunnel) technically makes them Continentals. Isn't the road below a piece of land that connects Continental Europe (France) to the Island? Therefore , they are not surrounded by water ?

 

[WWGD]

Interesting rule of thumb: In exams ( using multiple choice) for government positions, the longest answer is usually the correct one.

 

[Psinter]

Interesting rule of thumb: In exams ( using multiple choice) for government positions, the longest answer is usually the correct one.

This is a great question. Awesome question to be precise. I want you to know that I appreciate your question. Many questions have been made regarding this subject. Your concern is important to me. In 1850, the then president of this country assessed a question similar to this one. He sought the advice of the by then Super Mega Prime Interior Minister of the Complex People's Legislature to answer such an important question that had sharp similarity to this question. It is important to note that the by then Super Mega Prime Interior Minister did many good deeds for society. Deeds similar to the progressive deeds of the current Scriveners of our Fire Nation's 5th Circuit Legislature. All the while protecting our citizens from the Water, Earth, and Air Nations' hostile treatment...

 

[Psinter]

That moment when you typo and instead of typing girl you type grill.

His grillfriend .

 

[Psinter]

Did you guys also play to see who could say the highest number when you were kids?

We would play that from time to time and there was always this older player who knew more than the others and managed to baffle everyone else. For instance, in 1st grade we began like 1, 2, 3... 100... 1000... and then this player at 6th grade would say: Infinite! and we would be like: Whoa! Infinite must be like... super big! And some other kid would say: Not fair! But then would come another one and say: Infinite plus one! And everyone's mind would hopelessly blow.

Silly games.

 

[fresh_42]

Did you guys also play to see who could say the highest number when you were kids?

We would play that from time to time and there was always this older player who knew more than the others and managed to baffle everyone else. For instance, in 1st grade we began like 1, 2, 3... 100... 1000... and then this player at 6th grade would say: Infinite! and we would be like: Whoa! Infinite must be like... super big! And some other kid would say: Not fair! But then would come another one and say: Infinite plus one! And everyone's mind would hopelessly blow.

Silly games.

Ben Gurion!

 

[Borg]

If there was a coding hall of shame, the code that I've been trying to debug and document for the last week would have a prominent place of dishonor. Please KMN.

 

[WWGD]

Did you guys also play to see who could say the highest number when you were kids?

We would play that from time to time and there was always this older player who knew more than the others and managed to baffle everyone else. For instance, in 1st grade we began like 1, 2, 3... 100... 1000... and then this player at 6th grade would say: Infinite! and we would be like: Whoa! Infinite must be like... super big! And some other kid would say: Not fair! But then would come another one and say: Infinite plus one! And everyone's mind would hopelessly blow.

Silly games.

We used to play to see who can punch the softest. All other people go, barely touching others. Then you punch everyone really hard and say: " I lost".

 

[DrGreg]

But then would come another one and say: Infinite plus one!

Of course, they should have said $2^\infty$. But that's another story...

 

[BillTre]

There is a new World's Fastest Motorized Log!

And its for sale.

 

[Psinter]

The number of socks that go inside the washing machine should be the same number that comes out. I've been carefully watching them and it has all been a success. My hypothesis is that as long as I keep a close eye on them, they will not be lost. So far so good. 5 pairs in, 5 pairs out.