Will Israel's Strikes Escalate to Full-Scale War?

[kyleb]

Perhaps they were relevant back in 1980, the year that document saw light. Hizbullah was 2 years old back then. I still contend that they're irrelevant today.

So the 3 examples you mention are all boarder crossings they had prevent sense then but but failed at? Surely not.

You fail to see the point. UN peacekeeping forces are formed de-facto. How can Israel come up with a plan without the authority to divert budgets, provide supplies and most of all - when it hasn't been decided where the troops will come from? Should Israel provide those as well?
Have you ever written an operational plan? It's difficult enough when you don't control the resources, impossible when you don't even know what resources are available, and plain imaginary when those resources don't even exist.

It's what you are working with them on now, rather late obviously:
http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/About+the...ni+meets+with+special+UN+team+18-Jul-2006.htm

You can keep standing there. I'll be right here with all the others that have achieved the amazing feat of grasping the difficult concept of N-E-G-O-T-I-A-T-I-O-N.

L-O-W-B-A-L-L-I-N-G, I grasp that, and I thumb my nose at it. You have hard liners controlling your government that refuse to even consider giving up East Jerusalem areas and sections of the West Bank, until you can overcome those extremes that insist on denying Palestinians their land then you aren't negotiating, you are strongarming.

I don't know how much more proof you need that Israel recognises the Palestinian's right for an independent state alongside Israel, but that doesn't matter since apparently you know better than I the inner workings of the Israeli borg-like conscience.
Regarding the handful of Israeli extremists that have committed acts of terror, let me remind you of the word of the day - "proportions".

You want to talk proportions here then let us count bodies between their terrorist acts and your terrorist acts and resistance to the occupation along with the civilian causalities from your IDF's occupation. Yeah, your argument here isn't going to win you anything.

 

[Hurkyl]

I don't have that kind of information, what do you think I am, a terrorist!?

In another thread, you seemed to know a lot about aircraft. I figured I'd take a stab and see if you knew about the sorts of bombs they drop these days.

 

[Cyrus]

The Lebanon War (Hebrew: מלחמת לבנון, Milkhemet Levanon), also known as the Operation Peace of the Galilee (מבצע שלום הגליל, Mivtsa Shalom HaGalil in Hebrew), began June 6, 1982, when the Israel Defense Forces invaded southern Lebanon. The Government of Israel gave a green light for the invasion as a response to the assassination attempt against Israel's ambassador to the United Kingdom, Shlomo Argov by Fatah - Revolutionary Council and to artillery attacks launched by the Palestine Liberation Organization against populated areas in northern Israel. See also Operation Litani.

After attacking PLO, Syrian and Muslim Lebanese forces, Israel occupied southern Lebanon. Surrounded in West Beirut and subject to heavy bombardment, the PLO and the Syrian forces negotiated passage from Lebanon with the aid of international peacekeepers.

History has a tendency of repeating itself, no?

 

[Cyrus]

In another thread, you seemed to know a lot about aircraft. I figured I'd take a stab and see if you knew about the sorts of bombs they drop these days.

The kind that you don't want to be anywhere near when they come down.

 

[mbrmbrg]

Sure, cases like that are fine by me. There was a clear threat in that building. As for the other buildings, can you show a clear threat? Sure, intelligence might say there are weapons in there, but it could be wrong. Why not send ground troops to find said weapons rather than use bunker buster bombs on people’s houses?

Well, I don't know about Yonoz, but I can't provide a clear threat for every single target hit by the Israelis. For the simple reason that not every single intelligence report is made public. Remember: intelligence is usually classified information.

As for your second point: these people's houses are, most unfortunately (not sarcasm in this paragraph!), housing Hizbollah arsenals/personnel. Yonoz's convincing clip was in Hebrew, so allow me to translate 9:40-9:48 for you: "He who goes to sleep at night next to rockets aimed at Israel may wake up in the morning to find the room next to his house destroyed." Me: or his whole beautiful building destroyed. Aren't rockets explosive?
Do you really think it's so simple to send some soldiers to stroll into an enemy's arsenal, confirm and supplement intelligence reports, deal with it, and stroll out? Frankly, yes, I think it does make a bit more sense to level the whole building and be done with it.

 

[Yonoz]

For them, that's all they have. It's that or a rock.

Not quite, thanks to Syria (http://www.army-technology.com/projects/kornet/" ).

Regarding the second part, I think hurkyl and mbrmbrg hit the nail on the head.

EDIT:

Why not send ground troops to find said weapons rather than use bunker buster bombs on people’s houses?

Once again you're throwing wild unsubstantiated accusations. The armaments for each target are selected to reduce collateral damage as much as possible. The only target bunker busters were fired at was the command center in Beirut.

 

[Yonoz]

It's what you are working with them on now, rather late obviously:
http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/About+the...ni+meets+with+special+UN+team+18-Jul-2006.htm

You don't really read these, do you?

The diplomatic process is not intended to reduce the window of opportunity for military operations, but will take place in parallel.
"We are beginning a diplomatic process in parallel to the military operations, which shall continue," she said. "The military objectives are to hit Hizbullah's infrastructure and physical strength. The diplomatic process is not intended to reduce the time available for the IDF's operations, but as an extension of it in order to avoid the need for additional operations in the future.
Regarding the possibility of stationing an international force on Lebanon's border with Israel, Livni stated: "Past experience with UNIFIL was not satisfactory. We shall examine what solutions are suitable for us. The criteria are: the implementation of 1559 and the Lebanese Army deployed in the south."

I'm going to have to put a stop to the Palestinian question argument, it's off topic and somewhat circular.

 

[Yonoz]

History has a tendency of repeating itself, no?

Since there have been no major incursions yet, I guess we'll have to wait and see.

 

[Yonoz]

Here's more http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3280436,00.html". It's about 2/3 through the video.

 

[kyleb]

You don't really read these, do you?

Of course I read the links I post, but I read the whole pages and not what you selectively quote as if to contest my points. As I did last time you tried to pull that, here is the bit I have been saying should have been done years ago:

This must, of course, include the effective deployment of the Lebanese Armed Forces through the south, in place of Hizbullah, and the disarming of Hizbullah as a militia.

I'm going to have to put a stop to the Palestinian question argument, it's off topic and somewhat circular.

It is most relevant to all Muslims grevinces with Israel, but if you want to drop the discussion then so be it; your continuing defense of Israel's expressed intent to permanency hold Palestinian land despite the fact you know that is less than fair has been getting really old.

 

[Yonoz]

Of course I read the links I post, but I read the whole pages and not what you selectively quote as if to contest my points. As I did last time you tried to pull that, here is the bit I have been saying should have been done years ago:

This must, of course, include the effective deployment of the Lebanese Armed Forces through the south, in place of Hizbullah, and the disarming of Hizbullah as a militia.

This is nothing new, it's something Israel has always called for.

 

[kyleb]

Call for yeah, but I had been asking when you:

...discussed the most effective ways to achieve these objectives.

Seems you are just now getting around to that.

 

[kyleb]

Here's more http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3280436,00.html". It's about 2/3 through the video.

Could you describe what factors you are refferingto when you say "residential area"? And what prior to this makes this footage "more"?

 

[Yonoz]

Seems you are just now getting around to that.

What's happened to your demand that Israel should have drawn up a plan for a neighbouring country to police itself? What about your claim that Israel should create a multinational force out of thin air? Does it hurt much when you bend head over heels like that?

Could you describe what factors you are refferingto when you say "residential area"?

See those rectangular things, you know - with all the walls, windows and roofs? It may not be the Manhattan skyline but that's what people live in over here at this part of the world.

And what prior to this makes this footage "more"?

The 2 previous video clips I linked to.

 

[Schrodinger's Dog]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oslo_Accords" .

That was not lasting peace, peace for five minutes is no peace I know.

I've shown there was no such treaty, only a UN plan, and that the State of Israel was established according to that plan. It was the Arab nations that attacked it the next day thus "breaking the treaty" in your own words.

I wonder why, turfing the indeginous population off their land is likely to upset people wouldn't you say, and you telling us that they have no state so it's not their land is hogwash of the finest order, you'll convince no one that Palestine did not have a right to that land. Might it not have been better to move to the US or UK, in hindsight? 2/3rds of the worlds countries recognise Palestine as a state. Which means they can own land if they talk to an Englishman, but not an Israelite?

Israel never refused to return the land. It actually gave most of it back already. It was the Arab leaders that decided in the Khartoum conference not to negotiate with Israel under any circumstance.
Every piece of land that was settled before the war of independence was bought. Jews all around the world put whatever money they could spare into the famous http://www.jnf.org/" "blue box" (photo attached) to redeem the land our entire culture is centred around.
Please enlighten me.

Your problem is you only see what you want to see, this seems to be standard, understandable, but standard, I suggest you make the effort to look at both sides of the issue, from where I'm standing your opiions don't sound balanced, and therefore are none too convincing.

What pat on the back?

The US will support whatever Israel does, some people even condone the huge civillian casualties blaming the terroists for it as if they dropped the bombs theirselves, uninformed and partisan but that is the US for you, their media particularly newspapers neglect to print both sides of the story and their is a strong pro Israeli lobby, essentially they are not exposed or do not want to be exposed to the truth sometimes, in that way they echo yourself, I'm speaking generally and from a point of view from other web sites, but this is what I'm seeing, thus you will get no opposition from the majority of people here is as in my experience most are US citizens.

I will acknowledge that not all US citizens are biased, but they don't tend to voice opinions on fourms :)

EDITED for clarity.

I was just thinking that picture shows Bill Clinton with Yaser and Yitzak. It's a shame such liberals are not in governement now in the US and Palestine. Given the choice who'd chose Bush over Clinton?

 

[mbrmbrg]

Oslo Accords.

That was not lasting peace, peace for five minutes is no peace I know.

That's his point, Schrodinger's Dog!
Peace. Is. Attempted.
Peace. Resembles. No. Peace. Anyone. Knows.
QED

 

[Anttech]

Some food for thought:

Imagine if the British bombed Dublin in the same way as Israel is bombing Beruit, in an attempt to derail the IRA during the N.Ireland problems. I wonder how much backing that tactic would have gotten? Hmm none perhaps? Strange how its ok for Israel to do exactly that, aganinst lebanon.

 

[Yonoz]

Some food for thought:

Imagine if the British bombed Dublin in the same way as Israel is bombing Beruit, in an attempt to derail the IRA during the N.Ireland problems. I wonder how much backing that tactic would have gotten? Hmm none perhaps? Strange how its ok for Israel to do exactly that, aganinst lebanon.

Of course, then you'd also have to imagine there was no Irish channel, the British left Ireland completely, and Irish rockets were killing people in Liverpool and Manchester.

 

[Anttech]

No why would you? The IRA were bombing places and people in all the major cities in England. They were ambushing Amry checkpoints, they were killing innocent civilans. They are many similarities, up to and including that the IRA wanted the destuction of the United Kingdom of Great Britan and Northern Ireland. Over 3000 people died in "the troubles".

The one thing that isn't similar is the method of dealing with the threat.

 

[Schrodinger's Dog]

No why would you? The IRA were bombing places and people in all the major cities in England. They were ambushing Amry checkpoints, they were killing innocent civilans. They are many similarities, up to and including that the IRA wanted the destuction of the United Kingdom of Great Britan and Northern Ireland. Over 3000 people died in "the troubles".

The one thing that isn't similar is the method of dealing with the threat.

You've hit the nail on the head, and also enlightened us as to why we the English generally, believe peace is a better option, because a peaceful resolution was mooted and worked in NI(fingers crossed, but it's been while now) The key is to keep the peace process alive for as long as possible, as is shown by the middle easts cyclical nature of war and peaceful moments(the repeated failure of war to resolve anything I mean) people seem to forget astonishingly quickly how futile previous attempts were and the future violence they cause. So I would imagine that they would forget the lists of attacks against them quickly too.

I'm not sure it's a perfect analogy NI as the situations are very different, but it's at least a good example of how moderate behaviour worked. Also as a matter of interest, after we started hunting down terrorists, in a more bloody period of the conflict, we realized this tactic was untennable because in the following three years IRA recruitment soared, and soon enough there were 3 times as many IRA operatives as there were before we started using gunishment. I see no reason to believe that the same thing does not happen in the Middle East and it explains why I think a war on terror is counterproductive.

 

[Cyrus]

Not quite, thanks to Syria (http://www.army-technology.com/projects/kornet/" ).

Regarding the second part, I think hurkyl and mbrmbrg hit the nail on the head.

EDIT:Once again you're throwing wild unsubstantiated accusations. The armaments for each target are selected to reduce collateral damage as much as possible. The only target bunker busters were fired at was the command center in Beirut.

So what, all your weapons come from my country.

They have a few dingy rockets which have no aim (as you said so yourself).

You have a problem with them firing rockets at your cities, yet you have no problems droping bunker buster bombs on theirs. Do you see the problem with that?

I will post more later. I have to go to class now.

 

[Evo]

Not pointing the finger at anyone in specific, but let's all take a breather and calm down. Remember you're discussing the situation in the Middle East, you aren't at war with each other.

 

[kyleb]

What's happened to your demand that Israel should have drawn up a plan for a neighbouring country to police itself?

I said they should have worked with the international community to develop such a plan, as they are finally doing now.

What about your claim that Israel should create a multinational force out of thin air?

see my previous comment.

Does it hurt much when you bend head over heels like that?

That one is for you to answer.

See those rectangular things, you know - with all the walls, windows and roofs? It may not be the Manhattan skyline but that's what people live in over here at this part of the world.
The 2 previous video clips I linked to.

I see some buildings around, but It's the places in Beirut and such that do look a bit like areas of Manhattan or suburbs full of houses that people like myself are commenting on when we talk about you bombing residential areas.

 

[Yonoz]

Not pointing the finger at anyone in specific, but let's all take a breather and calm down. Remember you're discussing the situation in the Middle East, you aren't at war with each other.

Too right. My apologies, kyleb and cyrus, this matter is an emotional one for me. Not because of some national pride, I do have many loved ones who are at risk.
I'm going to have to let some of your comments go unanswered since I have an exam tomorrow and it seems like I'd be called up soon. Until that happens (if it really does) I hope we can continue this discussion.

I said they should have worked with the international community to develop such a plan, as they are finally doing now.

Well it seems that even now they're having problems finding nations that are willing to risk putting their soldiers in confrontation with Hizbullah. I hope the international community throws a big enough bone to Egypt or Saudi Arabia so they send some of their troops to do the hands-on work. A western military would be of little use if they decide to give them a fight.

I see some buildings around, but It's the places in Beirut and such that do look a bit like areas of Manhattan or suburbs full of houses that people like myself are commenting on when we talk about you bombing residential areas.

The neighbourhood that was targeted in Beirut was Hizbullah's capital. It housed their offices, command centres, communication facilities, media channels and bunkers all cordoned off behind roadblocks manned by militants with AK47s and RPGs. Ask any journalist who's been to Beirut, you couldn't get in there without authorization from them. It's impossible to prove to you each target's validity so you'll just have to take my word and ask yourself why some buildings were completely destroyed while others were left untouched (a difficult job in itself).
Have you listened to http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5567843" ? It describes it rather well.

 

[Yonoz]

They have a few dingy rockets which have no aim (as you said so yourself)..

They still do a very good job of killing civilians. Read http://www.meib.org/articles/0211_l2.htm" for more information.
Our weapons are accurate and guided by state of the art technology. A "bunker buster" has to be dropped accurately over a bunker to have any effect. It does not simply explode and release thousands of supersonic pellets around it like their rockets.

 

[Cyrus]

Too right. My apologies, kyleb and cyrus, this matter is an emotional one for me. Not because of some national pride, I do have many loved ones who are at risk.

No worries, you have not offended me. It takes a lot to offend me.

 

[Yonoz]

One last post before I go to bed: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3280876,00.html".
This contrasts sharply with the price Israel pays for freedom of press: in this video you can see http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3280436,00.html".

 

[Hurkyl]

Our weapons are accurate and guided by state of the art technology. A "bunker buster" has to be dropped accurately over a bunker to have any effect. It does not simply explode and release thousands of supersonic pellets around it like their rockets.

Maybe you can answer my question -- how much damage do the bombs being dropped over Lebanon actually do?

You have a problem with them firing rockets at your cities, yet you have no problems droping bunker buster bombs on theirs.

Why do you omit the major difference between the two?

 

[Cyrus]

Why do you omit the major difference between the two?

Explain to me the difference then Hurkyl. Hezbollah might happen to be in one or two appartments out of the entire building, yes? So what about all those other appartments that are occupied by civilians. Why don't you tell them, whose houses have been bombed, why it's different.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5577538

Look at the captions. Car bombed by Israeli warplane in front of a hospital. I guess nothing is off limits to bombing, huh?

Doctors treat a wounded Lebanese civilian July 23, 2006, in Tyre, Lebanon. A family fleeing Tyre in a van was bombed by an Israeli warplane on Sunday.

A Lebanese soldier tries to extinguish a car that was bombed in front of a hospital by an Israeli warplane July 23, 2006. Getty Images

Doctors treat Mahmoud Surour, whose face and chest were badly burned in an airstrike yesterday in Tyre. Surour was evacuated from Tyre on Monday by a ship from Cyprus.

Does that look like hezbollah to you?

 

[Gokul43201]

Cyrus, what do you think Israel gains by bombing civilian locations with no strategic value?

 

[Cyrus]

Cyrus, what do you think Israel gains by bombing civilian locations with no strategic value?

What do you think they gain by holding people at checkpoints for hours while humiliating them?

 

[Cyrus]

I STRONGLY URGE you all to listen to this clip, I heard it in the car on the way to school today. Listen to what your own people are saying!

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=06/07/24/1439247

 

[fargoth]

What do you think they gain by holding people at checkpoints for hours while humiliating them?

huh!, the checkpoits weren't made for humiliation's sake.
Do you think Israel would waste it's soldier's time in standing there if it wasn't a necessity to check if the person coming into Israel doesn't carry a bomb with him?

Do you know how many lives are being saved by these humiliating checkpoints?

do you honestly believe Israel does does it all out of hatered?

 

[Cyrus]

Listen to the audio clip fargoth. The commander of the checkpoint even had problems with the ways these checks are being carried out.

Saving lives at the checkpoint has nothing to do with humiliation.

 

[mbrmbrg]

http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/07/23/mideast.bolton/"

I think Bolton poses a telling question to all those who say Israel's response is out of proportion.
(and seeing how this is a physics forum:)
"x is too large" is a meaningless statement if unbounded.
Try instead: $$\{x\mid m\leq x\leq n\}$$