Will Israel's Strikes Escalate to Full-Scale War?

[kyleb]

Bystander, stereotyping such as you did here is in the way of making a difference.

continuing occupation? What was wrong with the Barak deal that arafat had to reject it ?

could you please define "new settlements" and possibly name some ?.

By new settlements I mean stuff like http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/israel/map/" . As for the deal, the offer wasn't made publicly so all we have are a few conflicting reports from insiders for that.

 

[vanesch]

Prior to the Roman empire (thousands of years ago) there was a country by the name of Israel situated in the same area where the modern state of Israel is. And thousands of years ago (thousands of years prior to creation of Islam), Jerusalem was the capital city.

Can anybody name a single historical Palestinian city ?

That is not to say that Palestinians have never lived in the region, but that there is clear evidance to the existence of an israeli country in that area that dates back 5000-6000 years.

All these historical references are of no meaning. As someone said here, then the US should be returned to the native Americans, Europe to the Neanderthals (of which there are no representatives anymore), Australia to the Aborigenes which themselves ousted another people before them (I think ~ 7th century or so), ...

The only reason of existence of a current country is that the people in power there, most recently had the biggest guns and/or most powerful friends. As long as they remain in that position, they are the legitime owners of the country. And the day that they get ousted themselves because someone comes in with bigger guns and more powerful friends, the invaders will be the new legitime owners of the country and the previous ones will be reduced to the status of terrorists/refugees/poor people. This is why the Australians are master in Australia, this is why the US citizens are master in the US, and why most people are master in their country.

So Israel's reason of existence is that they are there, have the biggest guns, and the most powerful friends. As is the case anywhere else.

 

[Bystander]

http://search.yahoo.com/search?p="i...prssweb=Search&ei=UTF-8&fr=FP-tab-web-t&x=wrt

"Stereotyping?" Not really --- Ahmadinejad, Hamas, and H(e,i)zbollah may be out of step with the current "mainstream" PR campaign of "peace and love," and picking up a few "bad vibes" from surprising quarters (the Saudis among others).

Do the Palestinians have legitimate beefs? Sure. With their great grandfathers for being so stupid as to listen to Arab governments in the region in 1948 and playing "all or nothing" when the UN said, "New day, half and half" --- now they've got "nothing" but what the Israelis have given them, want more, and haven't figured out that biting the hand that feeds you is more than a little stupid. "Unto the seventh generation?" Means 'nother 30 years and some kid is going to say, "Grandfather, your great grandfather got his ass handed to him in 1948. You got your ass handed to you 30 years ago. Now you think I'm stupid enough to get my ass handed to me today because you and your father and his father and all of you were stupid? Forget it!"

 

[Office_Shredder]

By new settlements I mean stuff like http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/israel/map/" . As for the deal, the offer wasn't made publicly so all we have are a few conflicting reports from insiders for that.

Look at the number of blue vs. orange settlements

 

[kyleb]

Look at all of it and note the continuing occupation and expansion on Palestinian land.

 

[Office_Shredder]

kyleb, there is quite clearly no expansion... in fact, more settlements were taken down than built up, and the new ones are already in heavy settlement areas.

And read the little legend! It even shows that the settlements are in territory under Israeli control after Oslo II.

 

[Anttech]

there is quite clearly no expansion.

http://www.google.be/search?hl=nl&h...t&cd=1&q=israeli+settlement+expansion&spell=1

Really come on, they have been at it for years.

 

[Office_Shredder]

A google link to websites isn't strong evidence. Especially when it doesn't respond to my claim that the Palestinians continue attacking despite recent Israeli moves to withdraw from Palestinian lands.

 

[Anttech]

I wasnt responding to that, I was responding to your erroneous claim that the Isreali's haven't been expanding there settlements. When it is clear that they have.

To respond to you claim: Of course the palestinians (the palestine 'terrorists/whatever') will contiune to attack, they are penned in, by a from their percpective, a hostile occupying force.

I don't condon what they do, nor do I condon what Israel is currently doing, nor do I condon Hez. current rocket attacks. Israel right now is showing how utterly incompitant they truly are as a govering body. What if they plunge the Middle east and perhaps the world into another war will because they can't stop having tantrums.

 

[kyleb]

I think he just wanted more simple and direct source, such as http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/04/11/bush.mideast/index.html" :

President Bush said Monday that Israel must honor its commitment to halt the expansion of settlements on the West Bank after a meeting with Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon.

 

[Gokul43201]

Israel right now is showing how utterly incompitant they truly are as a govering body. What if they plunge the Middle east and perhaps the world into another war will because they can't stop having tantrums.

And on the other hand:

Lebanon, right now, is showing how utterly incompetent they truly are, as a govering body. What if they plunge the Middle East, and perhaps the world, into another war because they can't stop having terrorists dictate government policy?

 

[MeJennifer]

Israel right now is showing how utterly incompitant they truly are as a govering body. What if they plunge the Middle east and perhaps the world into another war will because they can't stop having tantrums.

Well if the western world decides to get involved you cannot blame that on Israel. We in the west have the choice to get involved or not.
And as far as I am concerned we should not. Let them fight it out, what is it up to us?

 

[Yonoz]

What if they plunge the Middle east and perhaps the world into another war will because they can't stop having tantrums.

Let me remind you: Israel has been out of Lebanon for 6 years now. The border is internationally recognised. The UN security council has decided Lebanon should deploy its military along the border and disarm Hizbullah. They have done nothing remotely nearing this. Instead, Hizbullah has appointed a minister in the Lebanese government and is allowed to freely arm itself and harrass Israel. Hizbullah has set up positions all along the border, they've set up an array of over 10000 rockets targeted at Israeli population centers, and have attacked Israeli civilians and forces on the Israeli side of the internationally recognised border many times since the pullout. Every time Israel has delicately responded in a very limited scope and all this ever achieved was more support for Hizbullah. This last conflict was sparked when Hizbullah fired a heavy barrage on Israeli civilian settlements and military posts and attacked a patrol, killing several soldiers and abducting two from Israeli soil.
This is no tantrum. Israel is exercising its right to defend its citizens and border, and it is doing so with the support of the international community. In the first 5 days of the conflict Israeli planes have flown over 1000 sorties, trying to destroy weapons hidden inside civilian populations. The Lebanese death toll is extremely low considering the magnitude and nature of this attack. Of course, Hizbullah supporters and personnel deaths are reported as civilian deaths to inflate this number. International media reports are hysterical and inaccurate - for example, last night Sky news actually had a caption that read "Israeli air raid on Haifa". Haifa is Israel's largest city with a large petrochemical industry that Hizbullah's been trying to hit with Iranian made 300 mm rockets over the last few days.
Furthermore, Israel is demanding that a neighbouring country deploy its military on their shared border (what a tantrum indeed). It's demanding that its soldiers that were kidnapped on a peaceful border patrol on its soil be returned. It's asking that Hizbullah be disarmed. This is what a responsible leadership is obligated to do to protect its citizens - and so far it's been doing it well.
Olmert has promised to pull out of the West Bank during this term. It's clearly one of Hizbullah's aims to stop this. Anyone concerned with peace in the Middle East and the rest of the world should be supporting Israel's stand in the face of extortion and terror.

 

[Skyhunter]

When the militant wing of Hamas, with or without the consent of the ruling government tunneled under the border and captured an Israeli soldier, Israel bombed the electrical power plant that supplies 1 million plus innocent people. In the middle of summer in a desert. No more refrigeration, food spoils in a few days, no more water since it is supplied by electric pumps.

Is this responding in kind?

Israel rounds up Palestinians, keeps them in desert camps for 6 months without charges and let's most of them go without ever charging them, just like the U.S. in Guantanamo.

I don't agree with what Hamas or Hezbollah did, but to say Israel is within their rights to cut off the food and water to a million civilians is just plain wrong.

I believe Sharon would have negotiated. The current leaders, like our own, have no military background and are making catastrophic mistakes.

 

[Office_Shredder]

Ok, skyhunter. Who should Israel have negotiated with? The people whose main tenant is "destroy Israel", or the people who fund them?

 

[kyleb]

The people who just want to end the occupation and expansion.

 

[Hurkyl]

he people who just want to end the occupation and expansion.

Which ones? The ones who want to end the occupation and expansion by eliminating Israel, or the ones who want to end the occupation and expansion by funding the ones who eliminate Israel?

 

[kyleb]

The ones who know damn well that they don't have a chance in hell of eliminating Israel, yet are compelled to cling to that pipe dream though the continuing occupation and expansion onto Palestinian land.

 

[Hurkyl]

So, you think that Israel can negotiate with the ones who know [bleep] that they don't have a chance [bleep] of eliminating Israel, yet are compelled to cling to that pipe dream though the continuing occupation and expansion onto Palestinian land?

 

[pcorbett]

I have come to the conclusion that everyone in the Middle East, Palestinian and Israeli, is insane.

That may but for a bunch of crazies Israelis look and act a lot like the West.

 

[kyleb]

So, you think that Israel can negotiate with the ones who know [bleep] that they don't have a chance [bleep] of eliminating Israel, yet are compelled to cling to that pipe dream though the continuing occupation and expansion onto Palestinian land?

I apologize for causing any offence with my tone, those strong words are simply intended to emphasize the blatant reality of the situation.

 

[Skyhunter]

Ok, skyhunter. Who should Israel have negotiated with? The people whose main tenant is "destroy Israel", or the people who fund them?

Whomever was holding the captured soldier(s).

 

[Office_Shredder]

Whomever was holding the captured soldier(s).

You'll notice that the ones who captured the soldiers demanded the release of hundreds of prisoners in return?

How is this negotiation?

And Israel couldn't even negotiate with the Palestinians who kidnapped a soldier, they could only talk to an intermediary who "represented" them (and by represented they meant had no clue where the soldier was, or if he was still alive. Good guy to work with)

 

[pcorbett]

The people who just want to end the occupation and expansion.

What expansion? A quarter century ago Israel held the Sinai. In 2005 Israel left Gaza. Are you sure you don't mean "continue the contraction?"

 

[Cyrus]

All you get in the media here is Palestinian Kids wearing camo and holding Ak-47's, funny you never see pictures of Israeli kids signing the bombs being fired, now do you?

Source and Picture: http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/israel-bombarded-peres/2006/07/18/1153166347409.html

Sad, both sides teach their children to hate.

I'm sure these pictures will catch on to the post later.

She did not even spell "whit love" correct...

 

[kyleb]

What expansion? A quarter century ago Israel held the Sinai. In 2005 Israel left Gaza. Are you sure you don't mean "continue the contraction?"

I am speaking with the respect to the fact that contraction in the areas you mention does nothing to negate the reality of continuing expansion and occupation in other areas.

 

[Cyrus]

Here is another pic from the AP

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/060717/481/6332a58d75a84b8a85f94f9f9b7ad29f

One kidnapped soldier and its time to bomb an entire country...

Out of all that bombing, they manage to kill only 2 hezbollah and 250 civilians?

PATHETIC

 

[Anttech]

Let me remind you: Israel has been out of Lebanon for 6 years now. The border is internationally recognised. The UN security council has decided Lebanon should deploy its military along the border and disarm Hizbullah. They have done nothing remotely nearing this. Instead, Hizbullah has appointed a minister in the Lebanese government and is allowed to freely arm itself and harrass Israel. Hizbullah has set up positions all along the border, they've set up an array of over 10000 rockets targeted at Israeli population centers, and have attacked Israeli civilians and forces on the Israeli side of the internationally recognised border many times since the pullout. Every time Israel has delicately responded in a very limited scope and all this ever achieved was more support for Hizbullah. This last conflict was sparked when Hizbullah fired a heavy barrage on Israeli civilian settlements and military posts and attacked a patrol, killing several soldiers and abducting two from Israeli soil.
This is no tantrum. Israel is exercising its right to defend its citizens and border, and it is doing so with the support of the international community. In the first 5 days of the conflict Israeli planes have flown over 1000 sorties, trying to destroy weapons hidden inside civilian populations. The Lebanese death toll is extremely low considering the magnitude and nature of this attack. Of course, Hizbullah supporters and personnel deaths are reported as civilian deaths to inflate this number. International media reports are hysterical and inaccurate - for example, last night Sky news actually had a caption that read "Israeli air raid on Haifa". Haifa is Israel's largest city with a large petrochemical industry that Hizbullah's been trying to hit with Iranian made 300 mm rockets over the last few days.
Furthermore, Israel is demanding that a neighbouring country deploy its military on their shared border (what a tantrum indeed). It's demanding that its soldiers that were kidnapped on a peaceful border patrol on its soil be returned. It's asking that Hizbullah be disarmed. This is what a responsible leadership is obligated to do to protect its citizens - and so far it's been doing it well.
Olmert has promised to pull out of the West Bank during this term. It's clearly one of Hizbullah's aims to stop this. Anyone concerned with peace in the Middle East and the rest of the world should be supporting Israel's stand in the face of extortion and terror.

Yonzo, you do NOT have the support of the international community, you may have support from some countries, USA being the biggest, but what your government is doing right now is being condoned everywhere. You cannot blame the Lebanaon government for Hezbullah, they are a weak government and are just trying to get on their feet after being "occupied" by Syria, your True enemy. Your actions are not helping one bit.

I just wonder where you get your information from? I didnt realize that the whole media world was lying about the deaths of civilians

I highly doubt that "bombing the sh!t" out of Lebanaon is going to help, in fact it is making the situation worse.

 

[Anttech]

So, you think that Israel can negotiate with the ones who know [bleep] that they don't have a chance [bleep] of eliminating Israel, yet are compelled to cling to that pipe dream though the continuing occupation and expansion onto Palestinian land?

What on Earth are you talking about? You are it seems slanting your questions in a completely unreasonable way. Palastine has a goverment, a democraticaly elected goverment. Yes they have a miliary wing (But so did shin fayn) The Israeli government need to talk to these people! TALK, they also need to HELP Lebanaon's govement take control of their country not destablise them.

War certainly isn't the answer

 

[kyleb]

War is our answer, as plainly stated in the article Cyrus linked:

Annan and British Prime Minister Tony Blair have urged the UN Security Council to deploy a security force in Lebanon but Israel says it is too early to discuss it and Washington has questioned how it could stop Hezbollah from attacking Israel.

Washington questions how a security force in Lebanon could stop Hezbollah from attacking Israel, while blatantly ignoring the fact that Israel's attacks are escalating Hezbollash responses. We don't want to work with the Lebanese people on this, we want this war.

Here is another pic from the AP

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/060717/481/6332a58d75a84b8a85f94f9f9b7ad29f

That is some impressive photojournalism there, the gleam of hope in her eye is poignant beyond words.

 

[Yonoz]

Yonzo, you do NOT have the support of the international community, you may have support from some countries, USA being the biggest, but what your government is doing right now is being condoned everywhere.

Apart from UN Security Council resolution 1559, let's see what some world leaders are saying:

Leaders of the Group of Eight industrialized powers meeting in Russia said on Sunday Israel had a right to self-defense, telling Hizbollah to free two captured Israeli soldiers and end attacks on Israel. They did not demand an immediate ceasefire.

Saudi Arabia, with Jordan, Egypt and several Persian Gulf states, chastised Hezbollah for “unexpected, inappropriate and irresponsible acts” at an emergency Arab League summit meeting in Cairo on Saturday.

World leaders, including Arab ones, realize that Hizbullah is a destructive force that needs to be dealt with in some way.

You cannot blame the Lebanaon government for Hezbullah, they are a weak government and are just trying to get on their feet after being "occupied" by Syria, your True enemy. Your actions are not helping one bit.

I beg to differ: Sa'ad a-din el-Hariri, leader of the majority in the Lebanese parliament, commented yesterday on foreign news channels "it's time Lebanese started taking care of themselves and not let others lead them to a crisis" - the Israel Foreign Ministry couldn't have phrased a better statement themselves. He also said "if anyone wants to start a war against Israel, let them start their own front, rather than incite people in Lebanon to fight against Israel, while they live in safety and stability". There is more talk of this kind in Lebanon, and hopefully they'll start acting on it.

I just wonder where you get your information from? I didnt realize that the whole media world was lying about the deaths of civilians

I live here, have spent quite a bit of my life in the midst of previous widely reported events. I've had regular contact with journalists and was once interviewed by the BBC though I don't think it was aired. My job in the reserve forces has mostly to do with exactly what is happening now. I've been involved in preparations for this conflict and I can assure you the current state of things fits our projections with near perfection.
I never said the "whole media world was lying" - perhaps you too should seek a journalistic career. I said they are reporting inaccurately and hysterically. Most of the time they simply "pass on" reports that aren't verified. I don't expect them to check on every casualty's background, but they should present the source of the information and let people know that they cannot distinguish between a Hizbullah operative/supporter and a civilian casualty.
Nasrallah has identified Israel's weak points and one of them is the harm caused by perceived attacks on civilians. This is partly why his entire organisation is dug deep into the civilian population in south Lebanon. It's one of the disadvantages of having a free press, and we should all be aware of it.

I highly doubt that "bombing the sh!t" out of Lebanaon is going to help, in fact it is making the situation worse.

No one is "bombing the sh!t" out of Lebanon - though that's the impression you get watching foreign news channels. Since the Syrian occupation Hizbullah had cordoned off an entire suburb in Beirut - it's only that suburb that was bombed so extensively - the rest of Beirut is quite intact. Airport runways and bridges were bombed to contain the kidnapped soldiers and to harm Hizbullah's ability to control its rocket array. Trucks carrying weapons from Syria were bombed, Hizbullah reported they carried medicines. The majority of targets were civilian residences in which Hizbullah have hidden weapons. There's not much Israel can do to prove the legitimacy of 100's of such targets, especially when it involves top-secret sources.

 

[Yonoz]

Palastine has a goverment, a democraticaly elected goverment. Yes they have a miliary wing (But so did shin fayn) The Israeli government need to talk to these people!

Unfortunately, Hamas' ideology calls for the destruction of Israel. We've already gone through this with the PLO. No compromise is ever enough for someone whose core belief is the destruction of Israel. Every Israeli government since 1992 has negotiated with the Palestinians. Now the ball is in their court - if they truly want peace let them elect someone other than Hamas. In the meantime, Israel is doing what it can - it has already completely withdrawn from the Gaza strip and if all goes well we should be out of the West Bank before the next election.

TALK, they also need to HELP Lebanaon's govement take control of their country not destablise them.

I'll repeat this again because apparently it isn't clear: Israel is demanding the Lebanese government deploy it's own military in South Lebanon. What more help do they need?! So far every time Hizbullah inflamed the situation Israel responded in a very restricted manner and all that got us was more support for Hizbullah.

War certainly isn't the answer

I'm glad we agree on something.

 

[kyleb]

If you agreed you wouldn't be supporting the continuing attacks but rather calling for an international security force to resolve the problem.

 

[Yonoz]

Israel's attacks are escalating Hezbollash responses.

I don't get this - Hizbullah attacked Israeli *civilians* on the Israeli side of the border for the umpteenth time since the pullout. Israel responds by attacking Hizbullah's weapons. Why are you saying Israel is escalating this? Is it acceptable for any country to have its civilians showered with rockets without removing the threat? Do you expect us to just lay down and die?

We don't want to work with the Lebanese people on this, we want this war.

What a short memory span the west has. Since the pullout Hizbullah has repetitively performed quick attacks on Israel after which it just steps back and let's Israel play the responsible adult, relying on their formidable ability to bombard Israeli civilians to ensure Israel doesn't eliminate their threats. This has become a repetitive pattern. This campaign is meant to bring peace to the Israeli-Lebanese border - I don't see what other motive Israel could have. Perhaps you could enlighten me.

That is some impressive photojournalism there, the gleam of hope in her eye is poignant beyond words.

I'm happy you're overjoyed to see such photographs. I wish yourself and cyrus would view the rivers of hate on the other side of the conflict with the same eyes. These children's homes have been shelled purposefully, and those artillery rounds are going to be fired to areas that are clear of civilians.
I hope you find it in your heart to forgive us for standing up to those killing our civilians.

 

[Yonoz]

If you agreed you wouldn't be supporting the continuing attacks but rather calling for an international security force to resolve the problem.

There is an international security force in Lebanon. It has done nothing but made it easier for Hizbullah to attack Israel. I wish I could show you a fraction of the aerial photographs I handled that show Hizbullah weapons caches and command posts enveloping UNIFIL bases. The 2000 abduction of Israeli soldiers happened right under the eyes of UNIFIL soldiers.