Will Israel's Strikes Escalate to Full-Scale War?

[ak416]

good site giving you a more lebanese perspective.

edit:inappropriate, the site is intentionally inflammatory, stick to accredited news links

 

[Anttech]

Annan accuses Israel over attack on UN post
<snip>
Since fighting between Israel and Hezbollah militants began two weeks ago, there had been several dozen incidents of firing close to UN peacekeepers and observers, including direct hits on nine positions, some of them repeatedly, a UN official said.
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/article1197718.ece

If Israel can't manage not to hit UN peacekeepers. It puts a new perceptive on there apparent selective targeting. I am not saying that Israel did this on purpose, I don't think they did as a matter of fact. However if they can't even avoid the UN peacekeepers in the south of Lebanon, they wont be able to only hit Hezbollah targets.

So I think this enforces my claim that Lebanon is being smashed to bits!

 

[Anttech]

Can you support this speculation?

Errmmm.. What is there too support? Are you dening that lebanon was gripped by civial war between 1975 and 1990? especially bad during the 80's

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebanese_Civil_War

 

[Schrodinger's Dog]

Perhaps we should start a new thread, but anyway. Debating is the means to an end. The end is to convince your *opponent* that your view point is the correct one. Life isn't binary and neither is a debate about the Israel Hezbollah conflict. There is no *logical* 1 or 0 or right or wrong. So to assert that emmotions "get in the way" is a falacy in this context IMHO.

Agreed. If your going to bring your tool box to a debate why leave 40% of your tools at home, whilst I don't condone trolling flaming or any sort of deliberate provoking of hostilility, a gentle prod to see where or why someone has the beliefs they do is of no serious threat to the logic of a debate and is quite a revelation sometimes. I understand why mods have to preach logic and Vulacan emotionless rehtoric, but that's not how human discussion goes, especially in emotive threads such as this one. I can't find a page on this entiure thread where someone hasn't tried to strengthen there argument by using emotion, luckily, it would be very dry if people refrained from normal discussion practices

 

[Yonoz]

If Israel can't manage not to hit UN peacekeepers. It puts a new perceptive on there apparent selective targeting. I am not saying that Israel did this on purpose, I don't think they did as a matter of fact. However if they can't even avoid the UN peacekeepers in the south of Lebanon, they wont be able to only hit Hezbollah targets.

No one ever claimed otherwise. That is why Israel has dropped leaflets, broadcasted radio messages and sent recorded phone messages to Lebanese civilians in the danger zone asking them to get away.

So I think this enforces my claim that Lebanon is being smashed to bits!

I fail to see how it does. You mentioned youself, Hizbullah "has a hold" over south Lebanon, this sort of thing is most likely to happen there. If anything this shows having UNIFIL in there is just another problem, not the solution.

 

[Yonoz]

Errmmm.. What is there too support? Are you dening that lebanon was gripped by civial war between 1975 and 1990? especially bad during the 80's

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebanese_Civil_War

No, I was referring to the second part:

I doubt that the central government of Lebanon could disarm Hezbollah. Its analgous of a little child trying to take candy from a grown man

 

[Anttech]

I would still refer you to the Civil war that gripped Lebanon for 15 years.

Why is it that the UN are in the south? and are you aware of its mandate?

To cut a long story short, they are there to help the weak Lebanese government bolster its control in the south.

 

[Anttech]

No one ever claimed otherwise. That is why Israel has dropped leaflets, broadcasted radio messages and sent recorded phone messages to Lebanese civilians in the danger zone asking them to get away.

How civil of you to let them know that you are about to destroy their homes, businesses and livelihood.

 

[Anttech]

To add to post #492:

FOUR UN observers were killed when their post was hit by an Israeli air strike in southern Lebanon last night.

A bomb struck the building occupied by Indian members of the team in Khiyam near the border with Israel.

Milos Struger, spokesman for the UN peacekeeping force in Lebanon, said: "There are casualties among the observers. A rescue and medical team are there but unable to clear the rubble."

Mr Struger said there were 14 other incidents of firing close to the position from the Israeli side. He added: "The firing continued even during the rescue operation." UN Secretary-General Kofi Annan last night demanded Israel launch an immediate inquiry.

He said: "I am shocked and distressed by the apparently deliberate targeting.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/tm_obj...id=94762&headline=u-n--bombed--name_page.html

 

[Yonoz]

How civil of you to let them know that you are about to destroy their homes, businesses and livelihood.

It's more than anyone has ever done for Israeli civilians.

 

[J77]

Isreal are in trouble now - messing with the UN.

 

[Yonoz]

I would still refer you to the Civil war that gripped Lebanon for 15 years.

Why is it that the UN are in the south? and are you aware of its mandate?

To cut a long story short, they are there to help the weak Lebanese government bolster its control in the south.

That Lebanese government has done nothing to improve its control over the South in 6 years, in violation of UNSC resolution 1559. The problem is not weakness, it's unwillingness.

 

[Schrodinger's Dog]

Hizbullah does not recognise Israel's right to exist and calls for Israel's destruction. Israel does not occupy one inch of Lebanese soil. Hizbullah demands the release of hundreds of prisoners including convicted murderers, including

Also they want the release of prisoners detained without trial don't forget.

Your use of the term soldiers in reference to Hizbullah is offending me, as I think it would anyone who was ever a soldier. There are plenty of other undisputed terms you can use.

I prefer Guerilla personally, or freedom fighter in some cases, not this one though.

A member of an irregular, usually indigenous military or paramilitary unit operating in small bands in occupied territory to harass and undermine the enemy, as by surprise raids.

Yonoz you would make a poor military strategist, if Palestine is indeeed waiting to repulse Israel what benefit would there be in attacking Hezbollah, if they are also helping them to repulse Israel, they might fight along side them but to fight them? Not smart(of course it could all be posturing, bravado, bluff). Oh and they aren't as powerfull as Hezbollah who are firmly entrenched for this situation anyway from what I've read so it would be fruitless and ultimately suicidal. There equipment and training is outdated according to the link I gave. Perhaps they thought when they were rebuilding their country after the last tragedy of war they could invest in infrastructure and tourism and all the things that bring back commerce and vibrancy to a country instead of war, that way they could recover faster? Poor planning when you have Israel as a neighbour I suspect if that was their intent.

 

[Anttech]

It's more than anyone has ever done for Israeli civilians.

As you said its a terrorist organisation, you shouldn't be scoping to the same levels.

That Lebanese government has done nothing to improve its control over the South in 6 years, in violation of UNSC resolution 1559. The problem is not weakness, it's unwillingness.

There is a difference between can't and wont. Dont you get that? The government hasnt been able too, it cant. You don't seem to understand the ramifications of a 15 year civil war, and of course the Syrian's control up till 2005. Do you honestly think in 1 year of Lebanon independence since the "cedar" revolution, it could have eradicated Hezbollah?

 

[Yonoz]

As you said its a terrorist organisation, you shouldn't be scoping to the same levels.

I was referring to the Lebanese government.

There is a difference between can't and wont. Dont you get that? The government hasnt been able too, it cant. You don't seem to understand the ramifications of a 15 year civil war, and of course the Syrian's control up till 2005. Do you honestly think in 1 year of Lebanon independence since the "cedar" revolution, it could have eradicated Hezbollah?

Again, not eradicated - disarmed.

 

[Yonoz]

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/25/world/middleeast/25beirut.html"

In the days since Israeli planes began to bomb Lebanon, this seaside capital has been almost physically split in two, with its largely Shiite flank mutilated by Israeli airstrikes and most of the rest of the city remaining relatively unscathed, if quieter and emptier than usual.

The stark physical contrast reflects a deep and growing divide in Lebanese society between the less affluent, more religious Shiite south and the more urban center, largely of Sunni Muslims, Druse and Christians, which has built and benefited from a long-awaited economic boom.

 

[Anttech]

And from the same link:

“The first thing I thought was, ‘How crazy to go wake up the monster,’ ” said Issam Saleh, a secular Shiite and an engineer who spends most of his days writing poetry in the garden at the Paul Restaurant. Hezbollah “knew exactly what would happen, but did it anyway.”

Even so, as the Israeli bombardment of the south drags on, dividing lines have softened: Even those who hate Hezbollah are horrified by the destruction. Now, as the war rages without any foreseeable end, almost everybody has been wondering where their embattled country can possibly go from here.
<snip>
But the longer Israeli planes continue to pound the country, the more the Lebanese find it difficult to stay angry with Hezbollah. Horrific scenes unfolded on the Printania screen: collapsed buildings and vast stretches of rubble in Nabatiya, in the south.

“We’re not Hezbollah supporters, but we cannot excuse what the Israelis are doing,” said Rima Beydoun, a secular Shiite who owns an advertising agency.

“We knew there would be repercussions, but no one expected they would be like this,” Mr. Salhab, the filmmaker, said of Shiite support for Hezbollah. “I am very critical of that part of my country, but I have to put it aside, because we are being destroyed.

“At this point, I can’t just say: Hezbollah, go to hell.”

The situation is made all the more complicated by the nature of Hezbollah. It functions as a civil aid group as well as a militia, helping with schools and in hospitals, and in many cases providing essential public services at times in the years of the war when the government was simply not able. It has a savvy media operation, with a spokesman who takes groups of journalists on tours of the devastation in southern Beirut with a truck that blares Hezbollah fighting songs from rows of speakers.

 

[Hans de Vries]

That Lebanese government has done nothing to improve its control over the South in 6 years, in violation of UNSC resolution 1559. The problem is not weakness, it's unwillingness.

The Syrian troops just left 12 months ago. Thanks to the international community.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A1437-2004Oct1.html


Regards, Hans

 

[Hurkyl]

Life isn't binary and neither is a debate about the Israel Hezbollah conflict. There is no *logical* 1 or 0 or right or wrong. So to assert that emmotions "get in the way" is a falacy in this context IMHO.

You can reason with shades of grey, y'know. But as far as I can tell, this really has no bearing whatsoever on whether emotions "get in the way".

The civilan deaths are a result of Israel's response to that.

Of course, this is a straw-that-broke-the-camel's-back sort of thing. (at least, it appears that way to me)

But with the same sentance they understand that Israel doesn't have a right to destroy Beruit and create 500,000 Refugies, as they try to smash hezbollah to the ground.

Why not?

I'm sure you agree that Israel has the right to "smash Hezbollah to the ground"... or at least to strike at its capability to terrorize Israel. Upon what grounds do you deny them that right?

Well I do not.
And we have the right to our views right?

Attacking a civilian population is crystal clear agression in my views.

Yes you can have your views -- but this is a debate, not a poll. And, of course, posting your view means it's fair game for criticism.

It has been pointed out several times this thread that "attacking civilians" and "attacking militants hiding among civilians" are two very different things.

You're going to have to address this fact if you want to have any chance of getting anyone to listen to you who does not already agree with you.

Agreed. If your going to bring your tool box to a debate why leave 40% of your tools at home

If 40% of your "tool box" is logical fallacies, then I'd really prefer you left the whole thing at home.

a gentle prod to see where or why someone has the beliefs they do is of no serious threat to the logic of a debate

Why not simply ask?

but that's not how human discussion goes, especially in emotive threads such as this one.

If everyone walked off a cliff, would you? We should not aspire to a low standard just because some people don't know how to have a rational discussion.

luckily, it would be very dry if people refrained from normal discussion practices

But there would be more progress. I'd prefer dry progress than... um... non-dry stagnation. If memory serves, I thought the thread was progressing rather nicely until "normal discussion practices" entered the fray, and have since felt the thread has slowed way down.

A year ago, a thread like this would have gone essentially nowhere, because all shreds of rational argument would be lost amongst the "normal discussion practices".

 

[Anttech]

Why not?

I'm sure you agree that Israel has the right to "smash Hezbollah to the ground"... or at least to strike at its capability to terrorize Israel. Upon what grounds do you deny them that right?

So why not nuke them? it would be quicker, and 100% guaranteed to kill the majority of terrorists! Would you back this strategy?

 

[Schrodinger's Dog]

I'm sure you agree that Israel has the right to "smash Hezbollah to the ground"... or at least to strike at its capability to terrorize Israel. Upon what grounds do you deny them that right?
.

It has the right to attack Hezbollah, but as has been mentioned having a 10 to 1 kill ratio(civillian to Hezbollah) Has upset a lot of people including Israelis who have turned out to protest the level of violence. Dya think terrorism is defeated by violence? Or have you seen like us Brits what stamping on terrorists does to the situation?

Israel has lost any moral highground it had in this situation and believe me, I was of the opinion that at least Israel units didn't run into packed nightclubs and blow themselves up, target civillians, at least it had made efforts to offer peace in the past , now I'm thinking it took a situation that was about two soldiers and turned it into an excuse to indiscriminately ruin a countries recovery and kill 380(forget how many it is now) Civillians and further alienate arab countries for years to come? as well as turn the west(minus big brother) Against it. If you ask me it looks like Hezbollah has the upper hand at the moment anyway if you're looking at intangibles.

Using emotion has nothing to do with logical fallacy(if your doing that your not using it properly) E.g if I say my entire familly was killed in such and such and therefore I know first hand the suffering going on at the moment, this is why it is remarkable that I still feel there could be peace because argument x, how is this logical fallacy? How is giving gravitas to an argument not a valid tool?

But there would be more progress. I'd prefer dry progress than... um... non-dry stagnation. If memory serves, I thought the thread was progressing rather nicely until "normal discussion practices" entered the fray, and have since felt the thread has slowed way down.

A year ago, a thread like this would have gone essentially nowhere, because all shreds of rational argument would be lost amongst the "normal discussion practices"

I don't think we're on the same page at all, I'm not talking about ranting or slinging useless trite phraseology around in anger, I'm talking about mixing emotive language into your argument, like I think encouraging hatred from Arabs is pointless. I'd point point out some passages where this is cleverly done, or where it the argument is stale and emotionless, but It might be considered insulting. Suffice to say the level of emotion has not diminished since the start, I think your referring to something else when you disparrage argument, if you've ever discussed anything in public you must know how effective your tone of voice is in conveying meaning, there are people who can do it with inflection and there are people who can do it with writting, I'm not one of them I have no real literary talent, but some people are masters of using clever argument mixed with emotive phrasing to really hammer home their points. Like I say it's 40% of the art of convincing argument at least from my experience. People like content but they like something they can empathise or feel too.

Someone once said someone won't remember what you said or what you did but they will remember how you made them feel. I forget who and they said it better

 

[Yonoz]

The Syrian troops just left 12 months ago. Thanks to the international community.

Israel removed thousands of families from their homes despite violent resistance and major civil disorder. The Gaza pullout was completed less than 12 months from the decision to carry it out. A large number of these families lived in tents until last week. Their property is baking inside containers stored in giant makeshift yards. They've lost their homes, workplaces, businesses - entire communities, broken and spread out in temporary solutions, doing the beaurocracy limbo with what savings they have. The Israeli public supported this move, and its government executed it with unbreakable resolve.
Restoring the Lebanese government's control over south Lebanon does not require an air force, a navy, or shiny new APC's. All it takes is motivation. If the Lebanese government is not motivated enough to assert its duties towards the Lebanese people, Israel is not automatically indebted with that duty. Had the Lebanese done the smallest step towards complying with UNSC resolution 1559 I guarantee you the Israeli leadership would not have responded so harshly. We are tired of being the grown-up.
There are some basic things you would expect to be done in the first 12 months. Discussions in the parliament. Policy declarations by the government. Mediation. Nothing was done and the expressed policy was one of complicity. Hizbullah is a coalition partner, they have a minister in the government. They are governing some of the country, completely challenged.
There is only so much we can take. Hizbullah poses a serious risk to Israeli civilians and it is our government's responsibility to protect them, even if it costs our nation a grave price. It's a shame anyone is suffering, including the Lebanese people, but the situation requires it.

 

[mbrmbrg]

‘for every Katyusha barrage on Haifa, 10 Dahiya buildings will be bombed’

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/retribution" .

Right, now we're back where we started. "for e/ katyusha barrage on haifa, [there will be retribution]," correct?

Your link gives 2 definitions for retribution:
1. Something justly deserved, recompense
2. Something given or demanded in repayment, especially punishment.

Neither denote if the buildings to be targeted are suspicious in their own right, though def#1 connotes that they are, and def#2 connotes that they are not.

Still all in how you want to read it.

 

[kyleb]

Look down the page a bit for the definition titled "Main Entry."

 

[Yonoz]

Here's an article about Israel's most prominent Arab affairs correspondent, Zvi Yehezkeli: http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/742277.html" [sic].

He was born in 1970. His father emigrated as a one-year-old from Iraq; his mother was born en route from Kurdistan to Israel. He says he was not the greatest student. In the army he served in an infantry unit and after his discharge he traveled abroad for six years and worked as a security guard at embassies. Upon his return, he felt an urge to take up Middle East studies. He did his undergraduate degree in that subject and in communications. His master's thesis was based on trips to the territories "with a backpack on my back, just like I did abroad." After that he was Army Radio's Palestinian affairs correspondent, worked for a while at Channel 1's "Yoman" and from there arrived at Channel 10.

On the show, "London and Kirschenbaum" he has a daily spot that is also broadcast during these days of fighting and covers the Arab world from diverse angles. "From the gyms in Dubai to the ringtones in mosques in Damascus and single women in Saudi Arabia," he says and quickly explains: "It's just as important to show the faces behind Assad or Mubarak. I say, 'these are people just like you. Let's take a look at them.' We have prompted a revolution in this regard."

 

[Bystander]

(snip)Dya think terrorism is defeated by violence? Or have you seen like us Brits what stamping on terrorists does to the situation?(snip)

Settles it right down --- you "Brits" hanged 400 Thugs, imprisoned another 4000, and killed a few hundred to a thousand in straight up fighting in India. That settled that. Same approach works today --- you run into a "Charles Manson" type, string 'im up rather than feeding him on the taxpayers' money, and civilized behavior becomes preferable to infantile temper tantrums.

 

[Anttech]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/5217176.stm
UN peacekeepers in south Lebanon contacted Israeli troops 10 times before an Israeli bomb killed four of them, an initial UN report says.

The post was hit by a precision-guided missile after six hours of shelling, diplomats familiar with the probe say.
The four unarmed UN observers from Austria, Canada, China and Finland, died after their UN post in the town of Khiam was hit by an Israeli air strike on Tuesday.

The UN report says each time the UN contacted Israeli forces, they were assured the firing would stop.

A senior Irish soldier working for the UN forces had warned the Israelis six times that their bombardment was endangering the lives of UN staff, Ireland's foreign ministry said.

Settles it right down --- you "Brits" hanged 400 Thugs, imprisoned another 4000, and killed a few hundred to a thousand in straight up fighting in India. That settled that. Same approach works today

Was that not in the Victorian ages? Schrodinger's Dog was referring to the IRA who the English formed a peace with, who incidentally were funded by US Citizen.

 

[mbrmbrg]

Was that not in the Victorian ages? Schrodinger's Dog was referring to the IRA who the English formed a peace with, who incidentally were funded by US Citizen.

Can you explain the essential difference between dealing with Indian terrorists in the Victorian era and dealing with the IRA a few years ago?
Why should Hezbollah vs Israel be compared to IRA vs Great Britain rather than Indian terrorists vs Great Britain?

 

[mbrmbrg]

I'd like to point out that Haluz does not say "For every katyusha barrage on Haifa, 10 Dahiya buildings chosen at random will be bombed." He says that 10 Dahiya buildings will be bombed.
It's all in what you want to read: while some would rather read "random buildings," I'd read, "10 buildings for which we have evidence of Hizbullah activity therein."

I read that the targets are optional and destroyed out of a desire for retribution rather than as a necessity.

Beg your pardon, you're correct on the definition of retribution, but above is where "retribution" came up in the first place. Your reading vs my reading. I think this sub-debate is just stating opinion at this point. Agree to disagree?
(and sorry for wasting your time quibbling over retribution)

 

[kyleb]

You didn't quote my reading there, you quoted where you made your own up and tried to pass it off as mine.

 

[Anttech]

Can you explain the essential difference between dealing with Indian terrorists in the Victorian era and dealing with the IRA a few years ago?

If I must

Essentially the difference is about 100 years.

 

[edward]

I can not accept that the bombing of the UN outpost was an unfortunate accident. That post had been in Southern Lebanon since 1978 and the blue flag was flying.(CNN this morning) This reminds me of the Israeli attack on the U.S. ship Liberty in 1968. The ship was a spy ship operated by the NSA. Why Israel bombed and straffed the Liberty was never really disclosed.

In this case Israel had recently requested that the USA send them preciscion guided munitions. The bombing of the UN outpost may have been a little reminder to speed up the delivery.

 

[Yonoz]

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3280038,00.html" by Sever Plocker, a traditionally left wing news editor.

 

[edward]

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3280038,00.html" by Sever Plocker, a traditionally left wing news editor.

Is this supposed to be the excuse for everything??
http://www.ussliberty.org/report/report.pdf

 

[Yonoz]

Is this supposed to be the excuse for everything??

Did I say it was an excuse for anything? What happened to "other side of the coin"? What happened to "take X with a grain of salt"?