Will Israel's Strikes Escalate to Full-Scale War?

[Anttech]

kidnapped soldiers

Just one point, You don't Kidnap Soldiers you capture them. Although the American Media is presenting it as such it is inaccurate. A Soldier is captured, a civilian is kidnapped.

 

[Anttech]

These children's homes have been shelled purposefully, and those artillery rounds are going to be fired to areas that are clear of civilians.
I hope you find it in your heart to forgive us for standing up to those killing our civilians.

Yer right! I suppose this is why, the UK govement et all are evacuating there nationals from Beriut? The reason why is that Isreal is punishing the whole of Lebenaon, just like they did with Gaza, and yes there is collateral damage Lots of it. Thier total lack of restraint is worrying.

 

[Yonoz]

Just one point, You don't Kidnap Soldiers you capture them. Although the American Media is presenting it as such it is inaccurate. A Soldier is captured, a civilian is kidnapped.

A soldier on a peaceful routine patrol, on its own country's soil, on an internationally recognised border, that did not fire one single shot, and is taken in a surprise attack meant for exactly that purpose of kidnapping Israeli troops - well, I'd call that a kidnapping. Soldiers are captured when they're fighting.

 

[Yonoz]

Yer right! I suppose this is why, the UK govement et all are evacuating there nationals from Beriut? The reason why is that Isreal is punishing the whole of Lebenaon, just like they did with Gaza, and yes there is collateral damage Lots of it.

Having answered your question, now it is my turn to ask: where do you get YOUR information from? Because it seems to me you're just making things up to fit your views.

 

[Anttech]

I would hardly call Israel at peace. Even before this new escapade.

 

[Anttech]

http://news.google.co.uk/nwshp?hl=e...esonline.co.uk/article/0,,251-2276721,00.html

Take your pick

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,251-2276721,00.html

This one is particualy good.

 

[Yonoz]

I would hardly call Israel at peace. Even before this new escapade.

That has nothing to do with the fact that the soldiers were kidnapped while on a peaceful patrol.

 

[Yonoz]

http://news.google.co.uk/nwshp?hl=e...esonline.co.uk/article/0,,251-2276721,00.html

Take your pick

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,251-2276721,00.html

This one is particualy good.

I don't see anything in there that supports your claim Israel is punishing the whole of Lebanon. If anything, it shows Lebanese and Britons felt safe enough to watch the bombings:

British officials say, however, that many might decide to hang on in Lebanon despite the Israeli air strikes that have killed some 280 people, most of the civilians.

BTW, the report quotes a woman saying powerplants were hit "one by one" but it fails to mention no powerplants were hit at all. Just an example for my comments about the international media.

 

[Anttech]

Yes it does, you are ensinuating that the patrol was a "peaceful" one. It is like saying a Patrol in Bazra by the Brits is a peaceful one when nobody shoots at them. Israel is NOT at peace, so the patrol would not be a peaceful one.

They were Captured by an enemy of Israel, from within Israel's borders, by an extreem group of terrorists. NOT by the Lebeonese Army.

 

[pcorbett]

I am speaking with the respect to the fact that contraction in the areas you mention does nothing to negate the reality of continuing expansion and occupation in other areas.

So don't you think you should share with us what areas you think Israel is expanding into?

 

[Yonoz]

Yes it does, you are ensinuating that the patrol was a "peaceful" one. It is like saying a Patrol in Bazra by the Brits is a peaceful one when nobody shoots at them. Israel is NOT at peace, so the patrol would not be a peaceful one.

The British in Bazra are a foreign force in a land in turmoil - how can you even compare the two? Then again it seems you too do not recognise Israel's right to exist.

They were Captured by an enemy of Israel, from within Israel's borders, by an extreem group of terrorists. NOT by the Lebeonese Army.

That terrorist group is part of the Lebanese government. The UN security council resolution 1559 demands the Lebanese government deploy its military in south Lebanon and disarm Hizbullah. It has not done any of this, and it is absolutely obvious and accepted that the Lebanese government is accountable for the situation.

 

[Anttech]

I don't see anything in there that supports your claim Israel is punishing the whole of Lebanon. If anything, it shows Lebanese and Britons felt safe enough to watch the bombings:
BTW, the report quotes a woman saying powerplants were hit "one by one" but it fails to mention no powerplants were hit at all. Just an example for my comments about the international media.

So bombing the Airports, and civilian infrastructure isn't hurting the ecconomy of Lebenon? 200 years backwards did I not hear quoted somewhere.

I am surpirsed that you seem to think that the eye witnesses where 'safe' and 'felt' safe enough to watch the destruction of Beruit!

 

[Anttech]

The British in Bazra are a foreign force in a land in turmoil - how can you even compare the two? Then again it seems you too do not recognise Israel's right to exist.

That terrorist group is part of the Lebanese government. The UN security council resolution 1559 demands the Lebanese government deploy its military in south Lebanon and disarm Hizbullah. It has not done any of this, and it is absolutely obvious and accepted that the Lebanese government is accountable for the situation.

Why are you putting words into my mouth. I do recognise Isreal's right to exist, I never said anything to oppose that.

I DO NOT aggree with the Israel's tantrums and the direction they are taking this problem, they need to put their teddies back in the pram and back off a bit.

However I do think that Hezbollha needs to be quashed. But I think the government of Israel's heavy handed approach (As usual it seems) just plays into the hands of these groups.

It may be accepted in Israel, that this is the work of the Lebanesse goverment, but not elsewhere.

Killing of civilians isn't acceptable, on both sides of the fence.

 

[Yonoz]

So bombing the Airports, and civilian infrastructure isn't hurting the ecconomy of Lebenon?

Just because it's hurting the Lebanese economy doesn't mean Israel is punishing the whole of Lebanon. There are other reasons for bombing infrastructure. Israel is also being harmed financially by this conflict.

I am surpirsed that you seem to think that the eye witnesses where 'safe' and 'felt' safe enough to watch the destruction of Beruit!

Don't be surprised - read it for yourself:

She said: "My concern was the children, they were watching the bombing from the apartment every night - the planes coming over, the bombs dropping and the airport blowing up.

I suppose if her children were in danger she wouldn't just let them watch the bombing, would she?

 

[Anttech]

Where on Earth does it say: they felt safe? Why on Earth did they leave and feel terrible about leaving loved ones?

Do you know how rediculus this sounds? The title of the article is:

'It's good to be safe' - evacuees describe Beirut bombing

maybe if you didnt realize they are saying its good to be safe, because they are now in cyprus!

I suppose if her children were in danger she wouldn't just let them watch the bombing, would she?

what was she going to do? cover their eyes? perhaps put a blanket over their heads?

 

[Yonoz]

However I do think that Hezbollha needs to be quashed. But I think the government of Israel's heavy handed approach (As usual it seems) just plays into the hands of these groups.

What approach would you have taken?

It may be accepted in Israel, that this is the work of the Lebanesse goverment, but not elsewhere.

That's funny because the Lebanese Parliament majority leader has said that it is the Lebanese government's work.

Killing of civilians isn't acceptable, on both sides of the fence.

I agree.

 

[Anttech]

What approach would you have taken?

Look, its your bed you lie in it! War isn't going to work, or do you think it has done so much for Israel in the past?

Israel needs to be seen as doing positive steps in the right direction, and needs to start making consesions. You need these people to like you, or at least tolerate your exsistance. If Palestine was a Happy and more affluent place to live, perhaps people would be less inclined to support extreemist to kill Israeli's. Bombing the Sh!t out of Lebenanon is just what terrorists need, it gives them more public support, and the circle of violence contiunes. Spread YOUR wealth and help these people, YOU stole their land, (with the help of some others it maybe added). They HATE you for this, you need to make them stop hating you! Having powerful friends may make it easy for you to stay in power, but it won't give your people a peace of mind from terrorism. A heavy hand has never worked with Terrorism (Look at Ireland for some examples).

 

[Yonoz]

what was she going to do? cover their eyes? perhaps put a blanket over their heads?

Just in case you ever have to experience what countless Israelis are experiencing right now: when in a house during a bombardment, the safest place to be (other than a shelter) is as far away from the external walls of the building as possible. So for the past few days Israelis living in the north have constantly been in shelters and rooms with no windows. Many only venture out for basic supplies. If that woman felt her children were in danger she would've taken them to a place safer than right next to the window or on the balcony.

 

[Yonoz]

Look, its your bed you lie in it!

Well now, it looks like you speak Israeli. I understand you also think Israel has no better choice.

War isn't going to work, or do you think it has done so much for Israel in the past?

Do you know anything about Israel's history?

Israel needs to be seen as doing positive steps in the right direction, and needs to start making consesions.

See that's the problem. No matter what Israel does, it's always seen in a bad light. You can look back to Gokul's post for a list of concessions by Israel.

You need these people to like you, or at least tolerate your exsistance.

The problem is those people do not recognise our existence. What price does Israel have to pay for "these people" to "like" it? Would any nation compromise its own security to be "liked"?

If Palestine was a Happy and more affluent place to live, perhaps people would be less inclined to support extreemist to kill Israeli's.

The Palestinians right after the Oslo accords were at the peak compared to any other time in their history. They chose to keep commiting acts of terrorism such as those that brought the Israeli public to elect the hardliner Netanyahu. What was that about sleeping in your own bed?

Bombing the Sh!t out of Lebenanon is just what terrorists need, it gives them more public support, and the circle of violence contiunes.

We've discussed this, Israel has taken that route in the past - and guess what? The terrorists got more public support. The Lebanese government needs to understand Israel will not allow Hizbullah to keep attacking it.

Spread YOUR wealth and help these people, YOU stole their land, (with the help of some others it maybe added).

What land? The border is internationally recognised, do I need to explain this again?

They HATE you for this, you need to make them stop hating you!

The question you should be asking is why do they hate us?

 

[Anttech]

The question you should be asking is why do they hate us?

You know the answer to that question:

Let me repeat myself:

You stole their land! Would you like me to show you a map of Palestine, pre-Isreal http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/pre48maptoc.html? Was it an Organic transformation from Palestine to Isreal after WW2? Where all parties where happy? Untill you can admit to yourself the truth and more importantly your government there will never be any hope.

 

[Yonoz]

You stole their land! Would you like me to show you a map of Palestine, pre-Isreal http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/pre48maptoc.html? Was it an Organic transformation from Palestine to Isreal after WW2? Where all parties where happy? Untill you can admit to yourself the truth and more importantly your government there will never be any hope.

So you do not recognise Israel's right to exist.

 

[Office_Shredder]

Anntech, I wasn't aware that Palestine was a subsidiary of the Lebanese government.

 

[Anttech]

No... Yonoz get a grip stop twisting what I am saying. You own the land, you are the most powerful there, thus you have ownership. However that doesn't negate the fact that for the last time YOU STOLE THIER LAND. It happens everywhere all the time, The Brittish did it everywhere, including Ireland. But I recognise the right of the Northern Irelanders to choose if they want to be part of the UK or not. equally I recognise that Israel has the right to exsit. I am not going to say this again. I am TELLING you why these people HATE you! This is their perception, you stole their land, and they are in a bad way and want something better. They see you will SO much more money and wonder why they have to live like penned in Animals. So it becomes a breeding gorund for extreemist. You won't win this war with Force, you may win it with Kind.

 

[Anttech]

Anntech, I wasn't aware that Palestine was a subsidiary of the Lebanese government.

I wasnt either. Thanks for that information

 

[Yonoz]

No... Yonoz get a grip stop twisting what I am saying. You own the land, you are the most powerful there, thus you have ownership. However that doesn't negate the fact that for the last time YOU STOLE THIER LAND. It happens everywhere all the time, The Brittish did it everywhere, including Ireland. But I recognise the right of the Northern Irelanders to choose if they want to be part of the UK or not. equally I recognise that Israel has the right to exsit. I am not going to say this again. I am TELLING you why these people HATE you! This is their perception, you stole their land, and they are in a bad way and want something better. They see you will SO much more money and wonder why they have to live like penned in Animals. So it becomes a breeding gorund for extreemist. You won't win this war with Force, you may win it with Kind.

What do you mean when you say "you stole their land"? Before you answer that question, do yourself a favour, read a little about the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1947_UN_Partition_Plan" .
As I've said before, this has nothing to do with the Palestinian's financial state. They flourished under Israeli rule and then again after the Oslo accords. Still, they chose the path of violence.

 

[Anttech]

So what do you think their perception is of what happened? Answer yourself this question and perhaps then we might be on the same page. This is symantics anyway, we have a difference in opinion as to what happened. BUT the perception of your enemies is the one you must look at, once you can stop them hating you for what happened, because they do, then you might be able to have peace.

OR do you not aggree? And tend to think you need to wipe out all the "terrorists" with an Iron fist, and force your enemies to love you!

 

[Yonoz]

So what do you think their perception is of what happened? Answer yourself this question and perhaps then we might be on the same page. This is symantics anyway, we have a difference in opinion as to what happened. BUT the perception of your enemies is the one you must look at, once you can stop them hating you for what happened, because they do, then you might be able to have peace.

I've come to the conclusion there's no way the current generation will stop hating Israel. I don't think there'll be peace here for at least 2 or 3 generations.

 

[Anttech]

Humans have the ability of forgiving, and for healing emmotional wounds. Look at Europe, Germany (in the form of the Nazi's) Killed Many Many people, and many of your race. Yet we are now in a situation now where they are fully intergrated into the EU.

I think this had a LOT to do with the Marshal plan, something that the Americans got right. Israel needs to give back to its neighbours likewise. Really this is what I think, you can gain peace for the middle east with Kind, and less perceieved hypocracy (in the form of totaly unaquivilale support from the Americans (something they are getting wrong right now)).

My opinion --

 

[russ_watters]

I think this had a LOT to do with the Marshal plan, something that the Americans got right. Israel needs to give back to its neighbours likewise. Really this is what I think, you can gain peace for the middle east with Kind, and less perceieved hypocracy (in the form of totaly unaquivilale support from the Americans (something they are getting wrong right now)).

My opinion --

Yes, the Marshall Plan is largely responsible for Germany and Japan being fully integrated into the world community today, but it required first the utter conquest and unconditional surrender of both. That situation does no exist in the ME, so there can't be a Marshall Plan for the countries surrounding Israel.

 

[Gokul43201]

I am speaking with the respect to the fact that contraction in the areas you mention does nothing to negate the reality of continuing expansion and occupation in other areas.

Is Israel bigger today than it was 5 years ago? 10 years ago?

I'm not being apologist for the illegal occupation they have engaged in, and I'm only half disappointed that the UN hardly holds their feet to the fire about it. I'm merely failing to inderstand your use of the word 'expansion'. To me, when something expands, it gets bigger.

 

[russ_watters]

You stole their land!

That certainly is the perception, and Israel does recognize that they have to give at least some land back. They've already started to do that.

But right now, the only coherent solution to this problem offered by the Palestinians involves the Israeli people evaporating. They are not negotiating. If they want to continue that stance, then they will continue to have a solution imposed on them by force.

That is the reason the upper echelon of the world community almost universally supports Israel. Even Russia and China now. They recognize that only Israel is making an honest effort to resolve this conflict.

edit: Actually, there is another reason: Hezbollah (as always) is primarily targeting civlians. While the international community recognizes the toll being taken on the Lebanese, intential killing of civilians is murder and that makes Hezbollah a terrorist organization.

 

[russ_watters]

Just one point, You don't Kidnap Soldiers you capture them. Although the American Media is presenting it as such it is inaccurate. A Soldier is captured, a civilian is kidnapped.

Soldiers are captured in a battle. When you take someone for the purpose of holding them hostage for ransom, that is kidnapping, whether they are wearing a uniform or not.

But regardless of what you want to call it, these soldiers were not engaged in battle and now they are. Why? Because they were attacked. Hezbollah started the current conflict and the world community recognizes that.

 

[kyleb]

I don't get this - Hizbullah attacked Israeli *civilians* on the Israeli side of the border for the umpteenth time since the pullout. Israel responds by attacking Hizbullah's weapons. Why are you saying Israel is escalating this?

How many Hizbullah attacks since Israeli started attacking compared to Hizbullah attacks in the same number of days before that? That is the escalation I am speaking of.

There is an international security force in Lebanon.

That gives reasonable grounds to put a more effective international security force in Lebanon, not to start a war.

So don't you think you should share with us what areas you think Israel is expanding into?

I have posted maps showing exactly that as well an article about Bush asking for the Israeli expansion to stop, I think you all should acknowledge those facts.

I'm merely failing to inderstand your use of the word 'expansion'.

The continuing building and extending of Israeli settlements within Palestinian land is the expansion I speak of.

 

[Yonoz]

How many Hizbullah attacks since Israeli started attacking compared to Hizbullah attacks in the same number of days before that? That is the escalation I am speaking of.

Here's a http://news.walla.co.il/?w=/79/943223" . Note it's only for Wednesday, you can use the link on the bottom left to see the previous days. Now imagine that was your country - would you do any calculation about your response?

 

[Yonoz]

That gives reasonable grounds to put a more effective international security force in Lebanon, not to start a war.

I believe the proper expression is "get real".