Will Israel's Strikes Escalate to Full-Scale War?

[clj4]

So Israel's reason of existence is that they are there, have the biggest guns, and the most powerful friends. As is the case anywhere else.

You forget a "small" detail: they were there, CONTINOUSLY for 5-6000 years.

 

[clj4]

Did those 250 Lebanese civilians want Israel annihilated?

I can understand a reaction against Hezbollah, but not against civilians. Only 2 hezbollah out of 250 civilians, no. Find an effective way of killing Hezbollah if that's your goal. I have no problem if you can do that.

Because the Hezbollah, like the Hamas hides amongst the civilians. You didn't know that? Now you do.

 

[clj4]

Sure, I am not denying that fact. Tel Aviv looks like a nice place. Also being Greek I would like to go to jerusalem. But that's beside the point. Israel is far richer than Lebenon. And Yes I remember recent history, and if you topple the Lebonen government it will repeat its-self. Lebenon should and will be if left to its owe devices be a democratic secular state! Yonoz, Israel is destroying the fabric of the civilian infrastructure in Lebenon, it will take years to repair and hundereds of millions of Euros. The same cannot be said of israel. I feel sorry for your blight, but I truly think the "punishment" that is being given back to lebenon is totally disproportionate.

But you greeks have a looong history of antisemitism and apologism towards the muslims. After all , you spent about 500 years under the turks.

 

[clj4]

yeap, wonder why they are not condemming anything ----hmmmm---- ohh yeah because of the Israeli lobbist in Washington

Now your bias is starting to show even more. The reason US is not intervening is that it wants Hezbollah delt with, once and for all. You do not negociate with terrorists.

 

[clj4]

I'm confused when you bombed that airport what were the civillian casualties, 79 wasn't it, something like that? So what about israel bombing civillians is untrue? The fact is the major casualties of this war, are civillian, men, women and children, are you denying this? Perhaps I insulted the IDF by claiming they couldn't kill more civillians if they tried? I apologise I've obviously cast aspersions on their skills.

I watch the news every day and all I see is civillian casualties rising, are the lives of two soldiers recompensed by the lives of 300 dead civillians on both sides? Is this teaching Hezbollah that their methods won't work, or by pounding them are you mereley making there iron resolve into steel? Are all the other middle Eastern terrorist groups getting pissed with Israel, is their recruitment going to sky rocket, could fundementalist lunatics get any more partisan? What is it you are hoping to achieve here? You seem to have a habbit of moving into the Lebanon getting bitten and then retreating, is this all just a little bit of history repeating? If you withdraw this time it'll be the 4th time IIRC, perhaps you should consider doing it before more lives are lost? You made your point, how many more innocent people have to die?

I'm surprised actually I thought that post was more insulting to the US, but then I guess they are used to it .

Don't get me wrong I am impartial in this affair, I disagree equally with what both sides are doing and hope for peace. I personally find indiscriminately rocketing Israel to be cowardly and abhorrent, but this overkill startegy is lowering yourself to their level; it's hardly a way to garner favour with the rest of the world now is it? Personally I think this was a job for Mossad and special force units, not the IDF, a softly softly catchy monkey approach would have worked better IMO, at least it would have been more discriminate.

You might be right but it appears that a lot of the world thinks that this may be a job of finishing Hezbollah, once and for all. You need the army in order to do that. The first thing to do is to cut their retreats such that they do not run back to Syria. The second thing you do, you bomb the hell out of their positions. The third thing you do you sent the infantry to finish them off.

 

[clj4]

I think it became a "law of nature" now. Israel will always be doing this, as long as it exists, and will always be attacked by terrorists, as long as it exists.
This is now based upon ~50 years of data taking, without any empirical failure has been observed to this law.

Accumulated terrorist attacks on Israel induce responses by the IDF into their neighbour's territory, lots of casualties, etc... which then induces sympathy for the terrorist organisations, support, money, arms, recruites, ... and the cycle starts over again. How do you see any end to this ? Even if you destroy Hezbollah, another organization will take over.

So I guess we simply should get used to it.

You destroy Hezzbollah. Then you wait and see. It hasn't been done before, no it is a good opportunity to see. What a novel approach, destroy the terrorists.

 

[Yonoz]

Of course they're targeting infrastructure! Bombed roads, bombed bridges, bombed airports, a total blockade - that's "infrastrcture" in my dictionary, and it's causing a humanitarian crisis. Obviously IDF does not target civilians directly (unlike Hizbollah), that's almost tautological.

If Israel wished to target the civilian infrastructure in Lebanon, the Lebanese would have no electricity, no petrol, their police and military installations would be destroyed, etc. This is not the case. Those bridges and roads are used to supply rockets to be fired into Israel, as such they are legitimate targets according to international law.
Similarly, Israel's blockade is in full accordance with international law.

 

[Schrodinger's Dog]

What does that mean, lose gracefully ? For the Israelis, just sit on their ass while bombs go off and cities are under rocket fire ? For how many years ? Without voting in for a hardliner who promises to hit back ?
And for Arabs, to change the mind of their populations, against all the grieves they have for a multitude of reasons, so that not one single terrorist comes out of it ?

I means compromise. Israel to return the lands they took from Palestine in breach of the UN treaty and for Palestinians to accept Israels right to exist and to work towards the dismantelling of terror groups. I don't expect Israel to do nothing, but the level of retaliation is to most people totally out of proportion and no doubt it will come back to haunt Israel.

@Yonez I can't listen to the tape I don't have a sound card. Is It khomenia saying to the leader of Hezbollah to abduct two Israelli soldiers? Or is it more indirect stuff that is pretty inconclusive? I's not Irans involvement I question it's the speculation that they are behind all of this.

 

[Yonoz]

By no means am I defending Hezbollah and certainly not attacks that are unprovoked. I agree Israel like any sovereign nation has a right to self defense, but they could have responded in a way less likely to escalate into a wider conflict.

What should Israel do considering the fact that Hizbullah, calling for the destruction of Israel, has over 12000 rockets and is shelling Israeli civilians? Does any country have to wait for every single weapon to be used against its civilians before it attempts to destroy it?

Both sides have agendas that are questionable and likely detrimental to the entire world, which is weary of it.

What's so questionable about Israel's agenda? Israel has called for the deployment of the Lebanese army on the border - is this questionable? Is the demand that Hizbullah be disarmed as per UN security council resolutions questionable? Perhaps it's the demand that the kidnapped soldiers be returned?

And I agree with much of what you've posted except the comment about reasonable terms and Arafat. I consider Jimmy Carter to be someone well versed in Mideast affairs, and he himself said that had Arafat agreed to the terms, which were not reasonable, Arafat would have been assassinated. But dwelling on this kind of history only gets in the way of finding solutions for the Mideast.

I highly doubt that, but nevertheless - Israel has paid that exact price. I think that Rabin's assassination serves as a grim reminder of the toll the majority in Israel is paying to bring about a change, without a single Palestinian/Lebanese/Muslim act of good faith to help them achieve it.

So I would like to redirect my post to the matter of groups such as Hezbollah, and why such groups emerge and are able to gain popularity. The point about corruption is a good point, and a problem particularly in the third world, but it is everywhere on some level, even the U.S. What is fuelling the hatred? Just internal Arab affairs, or generations of propaganda? That plays a part, but that doesn't explain all of it.

The fact remains that there have always been violent conflicts between shiites, sunnys, kurds and other forces. The Lebanese civil war, the Iraq-Iran war, and the countless attacks on civilian populations that are continuing today. These are generally ignored by the media. However, when a non-Muslim force is participating, suddenly the entire world halts in its tracks and does its best to appease the Muslim world. This may be acceptable when a foreign power is fighting a war miles and miles away from its borders, but for nearly 60 years Israel is fighting for its survival. As upsetting as it may be to the Muslim world, Israel is here to stay and we will not tolerate attacks on our civilians. What has the international community done in Darfur? Ethiopia? Northern Iraq? Chechnya? While even pre-independence Israeli aggression is repeatedly debated here, have you ever even heard of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hama_Massacre" ? So those nations who were fiercely brutal in the past are now reaping the fruits of the fear they've sown into entire populations while Israel, that's been trying to appease the Arab world for over a decade, is shamelessly presented as the root of all evil in the middle east.
The biggest criticism against Israel is whether its response is proportionate. I'm not sure that ever in history such judgement was passed so quickly in the early stages of a bilaterally declared open war. You're basically saying Israel should wait until more of its civilians die before removing the threat.

The U.S. has had a negative effect in many countries all around the world in an attempt to control local politics for self-serving reasons. In the case of the Mideast there is oil of course, but there also has been growing racism against Arabs and Islam in America. I don't listen to NPR to know this, and it's much more mainstream then racism against Jews has ever been.

So when Muslims hate the west it's the west's fault, and when westerners hate Muslims it's unexplainable? Proportions, anyone? Even if that was true, it's the actions of both parties you should scrutinize. We're no saints but I don't think we've earned a fraction of the hatred and violence aimed at us.

And all you have to do is look at UN resolutions to see consistent U.S. bias in favor of Israel.

Funny, we view the UN as biased against Israel.

Would this upset you if you were Arab? I think it would.

Just don't upset the Arabs. Please. Let them butcher Israelis, just don't upset those Arabs. Let them commit mass murders in Darfur, just don't upset them! Let them use chemical warfare on the Kurds and Ethiopians, just don't upset them... Let them blow themselves up in buses, markets and mosques, just don't upset them.
One day you're going to wake up when Iran has nuclear capabilities. They will say "we want Israel destroyed", like they always have, will you "not upset them"? Of course, it doesn't mean much to you, since you don't live here.
Can you even begin to imagine what it's like to have you country's very existence in jeopardy?

 

[Yonoz]

I asked for your explanation of when and what Israel most recently did to pursue as a reasonable means to remove Hezbollah prior to this attack, "the security council report" isn't an answer at all. Calling for a security force strong enough to acomplish the goal would be, but did Israel ever try that?

First, get your facts straight. Israel is not asking for Hizbullah to be removed - we know it's a pipe dream, or to put it in your own word - a strawman. If you don't want to believe me when I say Israel converses regularly with UNIFIL officials about Hizbullah attacks I don't really mind.
For a force to disarm Hizbullah it would need a UN mandate to do so (highly unlikely, impossible before this conflict), the ability to comb south Lebanon (otherwise Hizbullah will simply move weapons around), the ability and mandate to use force against any resistance and countries willing to present and supply such a force. Do you think that's likely to ever happen? What country would step into the sticky Lebanese mud? It's political suicide. Does the UN security council need Israel to force it into enforcing its own resolutions? Apparently so. Do you think Israel is happy to just march into war without exhausting every other viable option? It certainly seems you do, so here's one Israeli telling you we're not.

Israel has a responsibility to defend it's civilians and that is why it should have called for a security force strong enough to remove Hezbollah's presence form the boarder long ago. Calling on international help to secure the routes to Iran would have been well with within Israel's rights as well, but blowing up whatever you think you need to most certainly is not Israel's or anyone else's right.

Are you familiar at all with international law? Read up on the Geneva convention, you'll find Israel has every right to bomb the bridges, runways, radar installations, even civilian houses if they store weapons.
I've yet to see Arab leaders who have attacked entire populations taken to the international court. I've yet to see Chinese officials taken to the international court, despite execution of Falun-Gong members for organ harvesting and the systemic destruction of the Tibetan nation. I've yet to see Russians taken to the international court for punishing the civilian population in Chechnya. I've yet to see Europe stand trial for its African adventure, in which even Belgium, the embodiment of post-colonialist self-righteousness murdered an elected official to keep its puppet government in place. It's all politics, don't be gullible.

A sincere response requires a fair offer, and like you said the green line would be a fair offer; but you can't expect a sincere response when you haven't made a fair offer.

Let me try to clarify a point about negotiations that you fail to grasp despite it being explained several times already in this discussion: both sides have to first recognise each other's basic rights. Then comes the part about making offers.

 

[Yonoz]

I means compromise. Israel to return the lands they took from Palestine in breach of the UN treaty and for Palestinians to accept Israels right to exist and to work towards the dismantelling of terror groups.

There was never a state called Palestine so Israel certainly could not have taken lands from it. The occupied territories were conquered from Arab nations. I don't know what UN treaty you're referring to, perhaps you could provide more detail.

I don't expect Israel to do nothing, but the level of retaliation is to most people totally out of proportion and no doubt it will come back to haunt Israel.

What is so disproportionate about it? Do you know how many rockets have landed in Israel so far? Over 1000, only from Hizbullah. And that's not counting mortars and anti-aircraft shells.

I can't listen to the tape I don't have a sound card. Is It khomenia saying to the leader of Hezbollah to abduct two Israelli soldiers? Or is it more indirect stuff that is pretty inconclusive? I's not Irans involvement I question it's the speculation that they are behind all of this.

Iran founded, funds, arms, trains and provides the ideological backing for Hizbullah. Obviously they would not make such an instruction public, and for Israel to provide proof of one would mean loss of an invaluable intelligence source. So I guess you'll just have to consider how likely it is that the extension of the Iranian Revolutionary Guard takes its orders from Iran.

 

[Mickey]

Hezbollah has a religious conviction that taking action to max out Lebanese civilian casualties is justified, since Israel is pulling the trigger. They are more than eager to use the deaths to create more hatred against Israel. This operation, the kidnapping of soldiers, etc., is a PR campaign for them to get more support.

And it's working, of course. Reporters in Lebanon are finding out that it doesn't matter whether people are pro-Hezbollah or anti-Hezbollah, they are all anti-Israel. Today the Lebanese Defence Minister reported that many Lebanese soldiers will likely break ranks and join Hezbollah, and there's nothing he can do about it.

The scariest thing, though, was when I saw Anderson Cooper today interview people on the streets in Syria. They all seemed peaceful and sanguine. It was in a really charming marketplace. He asked them questions like, how do you like your government, what do you think of Bush's desire to bring democracy to the Middle East, and so on. And they were like, shame on Bush, we're just fine. Our government is so good. We can criticize them all we want, it's just that there's nothing to criticize.

I seriously bought into it for a second. Then Cooper cut to the next segment, where he said that after he turned the cameras off, people came up to him and said, "we'd like to tell you how we really think, but we're afraid the secret police will come after us."

This Hezbollah stuff is only a proxy conflict against the real bad guys.

 

[Schrodinger's Dog]

There was never a state called Palestine so Israel certainly could not have taken lands from it. The occupied territories were conquered from Arab nations. I don't know what UN treaty you're referring to, perhaps you could provide more detail.

I find this sort of politcal BS insulting to Palestinians, it was there land given over by treaty, you broke the treaty and stole it and you refuse to give it back and your premise is they were not a state so we can break our promise before the world because they do not exist as a people or a state OK whatever, you broke your promise before the world, live with it. If it wasn't bad enough that a minority population was given their land in the first place you then steal more and pass them off as itinerant peasants, please you'll really have to do better than that.

What is so disproportionate about it? Do you know how many rockets have landed in Israel so far? Over 1000, only from Hizbullah. And that's not counting mortars and anti-aircraft shells.

2 soldiers kidnapped 300+ dead civillians. You are admitting this is revenge for past events and has nothing to do with the soldiers then? It's an excuse pretty much to war yes? a sort of pay back for past misdemeanours?

Iran founded, funds, arms, trains and provides the ideological backing for Hizbullah. Obviously they would not make such an instruction public, and for Israel to provide proof of one would mean loss of an invaluable intelligence source. So I guess you'll just have to consider how likely it is that the extension of the Iranian Revolutionary Guard takes its orders from Iran.

The focus started off soley on Syria now it has turned towards Iran or there is a distinct effort ot implicate Iran by US and to some extent UK media, do you think we may have an ulteriror motive in protraying Iran as the Axis of all evil? And do you wonder why I take this sort of propoganda and theorising with a pinch of salt, ifs and maybes are that, show me a direct link and I'll hold my hands up and agree, otherwise I'm going along with the position that it's the Syrians who instigated this, as it seemed to be in the first place until the media machine got around to Iran.

 

[Anttech]

No. It's my perception that you've been suckered. You thought things were bad before, then someone invoked the word "children", and suddenly you think things are even worse!

The simple fact that there are civilian casualties suggests that there are children dying. If the report said that a mere 1%, or a whopping 75% of the casualties were children, that would be surprising. But that "1/3 of all casualties are children" is roughly what you should have already been imagining.

So, the statement "1/3 of all casualties are children" contains essentially no content, so it's not really meant to inform. It's meant to remind you that children are dying, thus evoking an emotional response. A classic appeal to emotion.


IIRC, I know that you find any number of civilian casualties, be it one or one million, is unacceptable. I know you find the situation disgusting -- but I very strongly suspect it's the mere fact that there are civilian casualties is what you find disgusting... that those casualties involve children is just a red herring.

WOW -- talk about over analysing. I'll think you will find this whole argument you are *attempting* to get into with me is a red herring

 

[Anttech]

But you greeks have a looong history of antisemitism and apologism towards the muslims. After all , you spent about 500 years under the turks.

Apologism towards Muslims?

It was 300 years and it was the ottomans, not the turks. Turkey didnt exsist.

Ask Yonzo, he will *probably* back me up, being an Israeli. There are *Many* people in Israel belonging to Greek anceistry. Hell we own a very large porportion of the Land in Jerusalem. Greece especially in Thessaloniki *had* a massive Jewish community. Most of them where Murdered in WII, by the Nazi's.

http://www.ushmm.org/greece/eng/salonika.htm

Greek resistance groups, both communist and non-communist, battled the Axis occupiers in an effort, not only to save Greece, but also to save the Jews living there. The small number — 8,000 to 10,000 — of Greek Jews that survived the Holocaust was due in part to the unwillingness of Greek people to cooperate with German plans for their deportation. In addition, the Italian occupying authorities refused to facilitate or permit deportations from the Italian zone of occupation until Italy surrendered in September 1943.

We are not appoligetic towards terrorists (I think that's the word you ment to use, not equate Muslim with Terrorist, it shows your true colours). I would love for you to back that statement up with some facts.

Loooong history indeed of antisemitism

 

[Anttech]

Now your bias is starting to show even more. The reason US is not intervening is that it wants Hezbollah delt with, once and for all. You do not negociate with terrorists.

You don't negotiate with terrorists is a slogan, just like Russ put earlier "Give peace a chance" is. Its something Bushco like to say all the time, as a premesis to do whatever they like. The UK Goverment negotiated with Terrorists in Ireland many times, and ohhh look there is now peace! Regardsless Hezbollah needs it sting taken away, I am all for that. But Israel is going way beyond a terrorist opp Like Putin said, it is now completely destroying Lebanon. A Free Deomcratic mixed race country.

 

[Yonoz]

I find this sort of politcal BS insulting to Palestinians, it was there land given over by treaty, you broke the treaty and stole it and you refuse to give it back and your premise is they were not a state so we can break our promise before the wolrd because they do not exist as a people or a state OK whatever, you broke your promise before the world, live with it. If it wasn't bad enough that a minority population was given their land in the first place you then steal more and pass them off as itinerant peasants, please you'll really have to do better than that.

What is this treaty you speak of?

2 soldiers kidnapped 300+ dead civillians. You are admitting this is revenge for past events and has nothing to do with the soldiers then?

How did you get that impression?

It's an excuse pretty much to war yes?

Yeah, when rockets are falling on civilians it's a pretty good "excuse" to go to war. That's what governments are meant to do - protect their civilians. It's surprising that you do not criticize, and even rationalize, acts of aggression against Israel, yet see Israeli self-defence as unacceptable.

The focus started off soley on Syria now it has teunrend towards Iran or there is a distinct effort ot impicate Iran by US and to some extent UK media, do you think we may have a n ulteriror motive in protraying Iran as the Axis of all evil?

I think the motive to implicate Iran is quite straight-forward. Iran is destabilizing the region and stalling efforts to stop it from developing nuclear weapons. Very transparent for a conspiracy.

And do you wonder why I take this sort of propoganda and theorising with a pinch of salt, ifs and maybes are that, show me a direct link and I'll hold my hands up and agree, otherwise I'm going along with the position that it's the Syrians who instigated this, as it seemd to be in the first place until the media machine got around to Iran.

Fine, stick your head in the sand.

 

[Yonoz]

But Israel is going way beyond a terrorist opp Like Putin said, it is now completely destroying Lebanon.

http://www.hrw.org/campaigns/russia/chechnya/"? Get your bearings straight mate, this is just another bit of world politics. If you're going to lecture about proportions I suggest you abstain from making unproportionate statements such as "Israel is completely destroying Lebanon".

 

[Anttech]

BTW Yonzo, where are u? Even tho I don't aggree with your goverments actions right now, you seem a good guy, and I hope you are safe.

 

[Yonoz]

BTW Yonzo, where are u? Even tho I don't aggree with your goverments actions right now, you seem a good guy, and I hope you are safe.

I appreciate your concern.
I go to university in the south. My family lives center north, right at the edge of the rocket hit area. Of course I have many friends and family living right in the middle of all the bombardements, and their lives are quite affected by the fighting. I won't go into all the details, it's quite clear the Lebanese are suffering much more than Israelis, and we've both been through worse. War is not good for anyone, but this time I can safely say the Israeli public is united and certain our government had no choice.
Having done my bit to help prepare for this war in some reserve service I had during the schoolyear, this saturday I'm going to set up a http://www.peacenow.org.il/" booth at a local mall. I hope people won't be too upset we're doing this at a time of war, we've decided we'll leave if it gets rough.

 

[Anttech]

Its your democratic right, and good for you! If Lebanon Israel and Palestine could rid itself of these problems of extreemism. What a beatiful, and prosperus place it would be.

 

[Yonoz]

If Lebanon Israel and Palestine could rid itself of these problems of extreemism. What a beatiful, and prosperus place it would be.

We had dreams of that during the time of the Oslo accords. It's sad to admit that I don't think I'll get to see that in my lifetime.

 

[Schrodinger's Dog]

What is this treaty you speak of?

The UN partition plan, now where as the reason for taking these distinctly demarkated Arab/Palestinian state may have been to pre-empt a strike and may even have had merit at the time, holding onto them and refusing to give them back is a clear breach of an already unfair treaty that you no doubt signed eagerly and then failed to uphold, you broke your word, to make ammends for this breach of trust you might want to consider giving the land back.

FYI Palestine declared itself a state in 1988, although it is not recognised by the UN, US influence again no doubt, It does have diplomatic ties with the EU, who recognise it's authority, you may also like to know the state when declared also recognised the pre 1967 boundaries, and accepted Israels right to exist. About half the worlds countries recognise it's existence. It's an aside to the original point but FYI, you can't take someones land and then claim they are not a state so you took nothing, no one is going to take that seriously, we could of said the same thing about the American indians, the Zulu or the Mauori, but we were more honest back then, we know we stole it, we recognised it then and we recognise it now. No one expects you to give the partition plan land back now, it's not realistic and I happen to think you've fought hard enough for the right to live there, the extras though should be part of any peace process.

EDIT: Here's a quote I think echoes my sentiment:

"Only then [after an internal revolution] will the young and old in our land realize how great was our responsibility to those miserable Arab refugees in whose towns we have settled from afar; whose homes we have inherited, whose fields we now sow and harvest; the fruit of whose gardens, orchards and vineyards we gather; and in whose cities that we robbed, we put up houses of education, charity and prayer." -
- Philosopher Martin Buber addressing fellow Jews in 1961

Although people like this shouldn't be alowed to speak in public, I can see where your ideas come from.

"There is no such thing as a Palestinian people... It is not as if we came and threw them out and took their country. They didn't exist." -- Golda Meir Statement to The Sunday Times, 15 June, 1969.

"How can we return the occupied territories? There is nobody to return them to." -- Golda Meir (quoted in Chapter 13 of The Zionist Connection II: What Price Peace by Alfred Lilienthal )

 

[Astronuc]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060721/ap_on_re_mi_ea/mideast_shiite_power;_ylt=ApH.c7sJl3eZMTi_yPpplYIUewgF;_ylu=X3oDMTA3NmxuamZjBHNlYwNyaGw-

CAIRO, Egypt - The fighting between Israel and Hezbollah exposed divisions across the Arab world, not only between Shiites and Sunnis but also between Arab governments and their citizens.

Key Arab allies of the United States, predominantly Sunni countries such as Saudi Arabia, Jordan and Egypt, fear the rising power of Shiites in the region: Hezbollah militants who virtually control southern Lebanon, Iraq's majority Shiite government, and — most worrisome — the Shiite theocracy that has run Iran for decades.

Yet many ordinary people, Sunnis as well as Shiites, are cheering the Lebanese guerrillas because of their willingness to stand up to Israel.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060721/ap_on_re_mi_ea/lebanon_israel

BEIRUT, Lebanon - A U.N.-run observation post near the border took a direct hit Friday during fighting between Israel and Hezbollah militants. Israel resumed airstrikes on Lebanon and prepared for a possible ground invasion, warning people in the south to flee.

Well, it is escalating. But note - Israel does warn civilians to get out of the way - Hizbollah shells (targets) Isreali population centers (civilians).

 

[Cyrus]

Because the Hezbollah, like the Hamas hides amongst the civilians. You didn't know that? Now you do.

Thank you for that piece of information. I hadn't the faintest idea..

Post something with substance or take a hike. Stop spamming posts with no content.

 

[Yonoz]

The UN partition plan, now where as the reason for taking these distinctly demarkated Arab/Palestinian state may have been to pre-empt a strike and may even have had merit at the time, holding onto them and refusing to give them back is a clear breach of an already unfair treaty that you no doubt signed eagerly and then failed to uphold, you broke your word, to make ammends for this breach of trust you might want to consider giving the land back.

The UN partition plan was not a treaty. A treaty is accepted by both sides. The Jewish leadership accepted this plan but the Arab nations, whome the Palestinians have chosen to represent them, refused to accept the formation of a Jewish state and so rejected the plan. Thus, it is not a treaty and Israel is not bound by it. Nevertheless, the parts that remained in Arab hands were not formed into a Palestinian state by the Arab nations, whome Israel fought in the 6-day war. Now, seeing as that land was held by the Arab nations and used by their armies to attack Israel, Israel is under no obligation to the Palestinians, who saw themselves as the subjects of those Arab nations. In the Khartoum conference following the 6-day war, Arab nations elected not to negotiate with Israel. While in retrospect it may have been wise for Israel to form a Palestinian state in the occupied territories, we can only speculate whether such a state could have been formed and what its relations with Israel and the Arab nations might have been. Thus the territories were kept but not annexed (with the exception of the Golan Heights) and certain groups started buying lands and returning to old Jewish settlements such as the Hebron community that was massacred in 1929, and ones that were lost in the war of independence. This is how the now infamous settlements began.
BTW, we are considering "giving the land back", as we have with the Gaza Strip and as we plan to do with the West Bank. We've sat at the negotiating table many times only to be disillusioned by PA-sponsored acts of terror at the peak of negotiations.

FYI Palestine declared itself a state in 1988, although it is not recognised by the UN, US influence again no doubt

No doubt? Excuse me if I take this sort of propoganda and theorising with a pinch of salt, ifs and maybes are that.

It does have diplomatic ties with the EU, who recognise it's authority, you may also like to know the state when declared also recognised the pre 1967 boundaries, and accepted Israels right to exist.

So if it was formed in 1988, how could Israel steal its land like you have claimed? You're not making much sense there.
The declaration does not recognise Israel's right to exist, and the Hamas government's ideology still calls for the destruction of Israel.

About half the worlds countries recognise it's existence. It's an aside to the original point but FYI, you can't take someones land and then claim they are not a state so you took nothing, no one is going to take that seriously, we could of said the same thing about the American indians, the Zulu or the Mauori, but we were more honest back then, we know we stole it, we recognised it then and we recognise it now.

Can you please show me how Israel has stolen lands from the Palestinian state, considering that it was declared 1988 and Israel hasn't taken any land, but rather gave over 100% of its current size away since 1967?
I don't see how anyone can compare the conquering of new lands by imperial nations to the peaceful return of the Jewish people to our homeland after 2 millenia of persecution in the diaspora. But nevermind that because that last sentence was fun to read - "we were more honest back then, we know we stole it, we recognised it then and we recognise it now". Why don't you contemplate that a little more before lecturing me about land rights. So many nations were born in sin, and yet you feel no shame criticizing us.

Although people like this shouldn't be alowed to speak in public

What's happened to your noble morals? Do you only live by them if they serve a purpose? There sure seems to be a lot of that around.
When presented with the option of living peacefuly with the Jews, the ancestors of the Palestinians chose to align themselves with the Arab countries and to become their subjects, in hope that their armies would crush Israel. Now they're disillusioned, and expect us to forget years and years of bloodshed? They expect us to just hand over land we've fought for and raised our children on? Only through negotiations will a fair settlement be reached. Until they're ready to take that step, the Israeli leadership is simply forced to make unilateral moves. I know of no country that has gone into negotiations with a terrorist group whose ideology is its destruction.

 

[Hurkyl]

Like Putin said, it is now completely destroying Lebanon

Completely destroying?? Countries have undergone years of carpet bombing, and emerged all right. I think Lebanon can survive a week or so of tactical and strategic bombing.

You lie. ... You lie. Again.

"You lie" usually requires some explanation, y'know.

It was 300 years and it was the ottomans, not the turks. Turkey didnt exsist.

The Ottomans were Turks.

2 soldiers kidnapped 300+ dead civillians. You are admitting this is revenge for past events and has nothing to do with the soldiers then? It's an excuse pretty much to war yes? a sort of pay back for past misdemeanours?

Because, of course, Hezbollah has done nothing except kidnap 2 civilians.

WOW -- talk about over analysing.

It's called supporting one's assertions. When I'm making a point, that I actually have reasoning for it, rather than spouting out a bunch of emotional appeals or other fallacies...

this whole argument you are *attempting* to get into with me is a red herring

which is what this subthread is about. If you think that's a red herring, then by all means continue to be suckered by and and be a repeater for emotional appeals, then go ahead. Just don't expect your posts to have any weight.

 

[Anttech]

The Ottomans were Turks.

Following your logic then everything Hellenised is Greek? Nope. The bysantium empire before the ottoman empire enveloped most of the Middle east and eastern Europe, but they weren't all greek. The Ottomans were Arabs that came towards Europe in the conquest of breaking up the Bysantium empire. They were NOT turks, because there was never such a place as Turkey until the fall of the Ottomen Empire. However there was a people called the "Turkic" where the country after the Ottomans fell got there name from.

Edit: To be honest it depends on how you classify "Turks" as any tribe that spoke a dervitive of the Turkic language group or people from the land that is now called Turkey. Right now there is about 5 or 6 countries that speak a turkic language derivative.

In modern Turkey, a distinction is made between "Turks" and the "Turkic peoples": the term Türk corresponds specifically to Turkish people and culture, while the term Türki refers generally to modern Turkic peoples and cultures.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkic_peoples#Geographical_distribution

So the ottomans would be better described as differing tribes of Arabs not Turks, since there was no such place as Turkey before the Ottomans fell I would not say that the ottomans are turks.

 

[Hurkyl]

However there was a people called the "Turkic"

Yes. The word "Turk" refers to the Turkic peoples. In fact, the Ottoman Empire was founded by a tribe of Oghuz Turks, and I've generally heard the Ottomans referred to as the "Ottoman Turks".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Empire

 

[Anttech]

Completely destroying?? Countries have undergone years of carpet bombing, and emerged all right. I think Lebanon can survive a week or so of tactical and strategic bombing.

Which ones would those be? Qualifiy your statement with a few examples please.

"Alright" meaning, after the carpet bombing everyone was happy and the ecconomy was boombing. Or Alright in the sense that the country was still there.

 

[Anttech]

I've generally heard the Ottomans referred to as the "Ottoman Turks".

Yes in modern time perhaps, but it arguably incorrect to call them this, since there never was such a place as Turkey.

The word "Turk" refers to the Turkic peoples

The word Turk refers to the Turkish people not the Turkic people. The word Turkic refers to Turkic people. ;)

 

[vanesch]

You destroy Hezzbollah. Then you wait and see. It hasn't been done before, no it is a good opportunity to see. What a novel approach, destroy the terrorists.

Hehe, I know of another successful example of that strategy
(6 weeks, or 6 months was it )

It's very simple: Israel is in a place where there's a lot of folks around it who don't like them. Some don't like them so much, that they'd even die for it. On the other hand, Israel has, for the moment, the biggest guns, so it can hit back. But just to entertain itself, to take a breath of air again, and to start all over. Because the guns don't solve the problem.

Because each time there's a bomb that falls on a house on the other side, and there's an innocent, or a not-so-innocent that dies or gets hurt, the folks around get reinforced in not liking Israel.

You can't win against terrorism, if it is rooted in the masses around you.
You can win against a few crazy terrorists nobody likes: just track them down and pick them up or kill them. But you can't if it is rooted in the populations amongst whom you're living. For each terrorist you kill, and each innocent you kill, you provoke more recruits for new ones. Your only hope is to diminish their hatred, if you want the terrorism to stop. But if the hatred is strong enough, you won't even succeed.

However, terrorism cannot win against a nation with many big guns either, and with people determined to stay, no matter what it costs them.

And that's why this thing will go on and on.

 

[Schrodinger's Dog]

The UN partition plan was not a treaty. snip.

more political BS, you don't work for the Israeli governement by any chance? No, thank god for that :) I will say only one thing, no one outside of Israel is buying any of that, and saying if a people don't declare themselves a state they don't own the land is like claiming that all the non European countries England conquered had no right to claim their land back because they had not declarded themselves a state, sorry India you can't have your coutnry back you weren't a state? Never mind, I thought I'd made this clear but it isn't obvious to you still. You need to accept the idea that everyone outside of Israel thinks that Palestine belonged to the Palestinians or Arabs who lived there before 1890 when you were but 5% of the population, when you turned up you took the land, or rather were gifted it, it already belonged to someone else OK, you sound like that raccist I quoted at the End there in that you believe these people didn't exist and that you moved into a ghostland, saying they weren't a state is essentially saying they were worthless and you had no need to honour there right to their land, and it's very derrogatory language. We don't buy it, hell does anyone in good moral conscience? You signed up to the partition plan they didn't, that still means you have to honour it, it was an agreement with the UN as well you know, they signed too, you broke your word to them?

You can spin history however you like, your kidding only yourself with rhetoric like that. I'm not partial to one side or the other but your one sided logic, smacks of condecension, I hope this sort of weaseling isn't typical amongst Israelis, surely you can see that this sort of ideology can lead only to descriminatory thought, you should start being more rational about your history and a little less one sided, probably not easy, may be impossible, but denying people rights because you don't acknowledge they have any isn't considered a civil way to behave.

EDIT: It is the US who uses it's veto powers to refuse recognition of Palestinians membership to the UN, it was passed by 200-4 votes. It only needed one country to veto it though and that was the US. Here's an update though on why it may of got stateship, it's academic though. I was wrong two thirds of all couintries now officially recognise Palestine as a state.

http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/issues/israel-palestine/2002/0519palmem.htm

There were two good strategic reasons for this. First, the Palestinian leadership believed that discretion and peaceful negotiations were more likely to produce a warm and open peace based on the two-state solution than thrusting the Palestinian state aggressively in the face of an Israeli state which, after all, still occupied militarily all of Palestine. Second, the Palestinian leadership believed that, at each point when bringing the state out of the closet was a serious prospect (indeed, on several occasions when President Arafat had solemnly promised to do so), a U.S. veto of UN membership was highly likely and might make the Palestinian position worse than before.

 

[kyleb]

First, get your facts straight. Israel is not asking for Hizbullah to be removed...

I am trying to get your claims straight, I asked, you responded, and I asked for clarifcation:

...what reasonable means did Israel peruse to clear the boarder of Hezbollah prior to the attacks?

Repeated calls to the Lebanese government and the UN, meetings with UNIFIL officials, supersonic booms over major cities and limited strikes against Syrian targets.

Lebanese government can barely keep themselves together, let alone are they in any position to remove a Hezbollah from the boader, and supersonic booms are strikes on Syria obviously aren't any way to get Hezbollah off the boarder either. Working UN and UNIFIL officals can be helpful though, when and what exactly was the last time Israel made a valid effort to resolve the problem of Hezbollah that way?

So please, it is up to you to set your claim straight or admit that Israel did not peruse reasonable means before resorting to war.

Are you familiar at all with international law? Read up on the Geneva convention, you'll find Israel has every right to bomb the bridges, runways, radar installations, even civilian houses if they store weapons.

I am fairly familiar with the Geneva Conventions, what potions of it are you claiming to be sighting here?

Let me try to clarify a point about negotiations that you fail to grasp despite it being explained several times already in this discussion: both sides have to first recognise each other's basic rights. Then comes the part about making offers.

I'm pointing out the fact that Israel has continuously denied the Palestinians rights by occupying and colonizing their land.

 

[kyleb]

Can you please show me how Israel has stolen lands from the Palestinian state, considering that it was declared 1988 and Israel hasn't taken any land, but rather gave over 100% of its current size away since 1967?

The blue and red dots on http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/israel/map/" mark recent examples of land Israel has stolen from the Palestinian state.