Navigating the Tensions in Ukraine: A Scientific Perspective

[Rive]

What we consider "Good" or "Evil" just depends on which side of the fence you sit.

Where do the late inhabitants of Bucha sits in that context?

I could somewhat understand Russian viewpoint for some time but that ended with them crossing the border, and completely reversed with the first cluster bombs hitting civilian areas.
And by now, this goes exactly by the simplicity of the age you mentioned.

 

[artis]

That would just further the narrative that the UN is controlled by the west and things like the decisions of prosecutions of the ICC are also a tool used by the west to further their own influence.

Also the saying comes to mind that "keep your friends close and your enemies closer"

Have they ever investigated alleged war crimes of western soldiers actions in the countless wars we have been involved with over the years?

I think there are two reasons for that, purely based on anecdotal evidence (which in war is often the only evidence you can get, especially back in the day) is that first the west has done on average far less war crimes than armies like Russian and China and Japan during WW2 for example. You can read about Japanese medical experiments in live "patients" which were POW's , the west hasn't gone that far ever I think.
Waterboarding in US is already considered a form of terror, in Russia waterboarding is considered a tool so weak they don't even attempt to use it...

The other reason I think west has largely got away with their stuff like the A bombing of Japan, is because the victor writes the rules. The same applies to USSR. USSR got away with tons of stuff, they rewrote history to their liking and then taught that in schools.
They murdered Polish intelligence and officers by the thousands in Katyn massacre and then said for 50 years it was the Germans who did it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacreAnd one last difference which I think is crucial is this. If you look at recent history , you can see that on average US has toppled or invaded regimes that have been more or less hostile. Sure Iraq was a huge blunder and possibly a war crime but Sadam wasn't exactly a democratic person with a perfect human rights record, Libya was arguably worse because unlike Sadam who at least got a court to make a ruling on his death sentence Gaddafi on the other hand was executed street gang style but then again let's not forget that Gaddafi financed some foreign bombings and terrorism and although under debate still possibly plaid a role in the Lockerbie bombing of the Pan Am plane.

So yes US has done some stuff that really degrades it's position as the arbiter of justice but at least it has done that to leaders that have been compromised one way or the other.
Russia on the other hand invaded Latvia in 1940, then finally in 1945 , it dismembered our democratically elected government, nationalized and stole businesses from our countrymen, deported thousand of our people, murdered thousands others for the simple crime of having more money, it killed our president and highest government officials etc etc.
So although I have gotten into fights with @russ_watters on this same topic before I do have to agree on simple arithmetic an say that in world where no one is perfect you simply compare two evils and conclude which is the lesser one. And US has clearly been a lesser evil overall.

 

[Rive]

The other reason I think west has largely got away with their stuff like the A bombing of Japan, is because the victor writes the rules.

It's a bit different than that. That time there were no rules against terror bombing civilians at all. So things like this were not illegal (and nuclear bombs were not known at all).

Regarding the 'victor writes the rules' - the new rules banned these methods. This part actually really supports my belief in humanity being able to be human, after all: regardless all the still immoral s*t afterwards.

 

[artis]

One sides terrorist is another sides freedom fighter.

This has been true but cannot be applied to all cases equally. For example US sponsored mujahideen so that they can fight the USSR invasion of Afghanistan and they did and then decades later some of them joined Al Qaeda and destroyed New York's lower Manhattan by collapsing the WTC complex or as is known more commonly 9/11.
So this clearly was a case where the Afghans who fought the Soviets were indeed terrorists (some of them) waiting to happen, sadly. Their aggressive form of Islam is largely to blame for this but that is a whole different subject.

But there are other cases where one sides freedom fighter is not a terrorist the next morning after some Ham and cheese.
I wrote about Ukraine Azov fighters some time ago here and how some of them have a liking for Nazi ideology but they are the minority, the absolute most of Ukrainians fighting Russia now are simply Ukrainians who want their land, they are just freedom fighters without being terrorists.If you'd wish to find a good current example of where "freedom fighters" are also terrorists at the same time then I think Afghanistan and Taliban is the best example that comes to mind.
Taliban does fight for their land but they use governance methods that are textbook terrorism. So in case some other country broke into Afghanistan again, like China or Russia we would have a huge problem because supporting Taliban is like shooting yourself in the knee.

 

[Isopod]

‘Kill them all’: Chilling moment Russian troops ‘ordered to wipe out village’​

https://metro.co.uk/2022/04/08/kill...-troops-ordered-to-wipe-out-village-16427816/

 

[PeroK]

‘Kill them all’: Chilling moment Russian troops ‘ordered to wipe out village’​

https://metro.co.uk/2022/04/08/kill...-troops-ordered-to-wipe-out-village-16427816/

What we consider "Good" or "Evil" just depends on which side of the fence you sit. One sides terrorist is another sides freedom fighter.

 

[Isopod]

PeroK what are you insinuating by quoting that Good/Evil quote? Are you trying to suggest that the Russian murderers are somehow someones freedom fighter?

 

[PeroK]

PeroK what are you insinuating by quoting that Good/Evil quote? Are you trying to suggest that the Russian murderers are somehow someones freedom fighter?

I'm highlighting that that is what others think. Perhaps i respond too emotionally to the horrors of war. I can't intellectualise them away.

This thread should be closed.

 

[Isopod]

I'm highlighting that that is what others think. Perhaps i respond too emotionally to the horrors of war. I can't intellectualise them away.

This thread should be closed.

Anyone who thinks that the Russians are freedom fighters, are just brainwashed by Russian propaganda.

I get the quote (its an old quote and a good one), but its totally misplaced putting it here (IMO) as the Russian soldiers aren't liberating Ukrainians or Russians from anything (they are an invading, murdering force) and quoting it makes you look like a pro-Putin sympathiser (or at least gullible/susceptible to his rhetoric).

Most people in Russia don't want this war, tens of thousands of people have been protesting it in Russia but they are being beaten, shot at and imprisoned en masse by Putins regime. Many more people would be protesting and vocalising against the war (& against Putin!) but they are afraid of what will happen to them (or their families) if they do.

The internet is run rampant with pro-Russian bot accounts spouting endless pro-Putin propaganda while trying to spread misinformation about Zelensky and the Ukrainian people, don't fall for it!
Putin's voices need to be combatted with strong & united voices from West who firmly stand with the Ukrainians and their accounts of things (etc).

 

[PeroK]

We shouldn't be discussing this on PF. It's too emotional now.

 

[artis]

@Isopod Perok just quoted another member in a sarcastic way , trust me he doesn't think what you are implying in fact the exact opposite of that and in a rather emotional way.
And often when the emotions run too high , he asks for the thread to be closed even though has added himself to the very reason for it's closure.
Anyway let's not get emotional or divert into side issues, I will try to post only news or opinion directly related to the conflict, as I have been also guilty of messing this thread up at some points.

 

[pinball1970]

The UK and Czech republic are sending more kit,. Good they need it.

 

[MikeeMiracle]

Where do the late inhabitants of Bucha sits in that context?

As they always do, as innocent civilians. It's why I hate all this posturing by the bigger powers as it's always the civilians which end up suffering most in any conflict through no fault of their own :(

 

[pinball1970]

As they always do, as innocent civilians. It's why I hate all this posturing by the bigger powers as it's always the civilians which end up suffering most in any conflict through no fault of their own :(

Yes. Too terrible to contemplate presently which is why it is difficult to post in an unemotional way.The BBC link intimated the Russian forces will make a new offensive soon and the west is getting heavy duty kit ready to send to the UkraineThe Russian minister (in the link) admitted the troops had suffered “significant loses”This is great news, they must indeed be significant for them to admit this.

Possibly word has filtered through to the Russian people that all is NOT going well and lying about it continually is probably not the best move?

 

[MikeeMiracle]

The BBC link intimated the Russian forces will make a new offensive soon and the west is getting heavy duty kit ready to send to the Ukraine

I wonder what kit this constitutes this time around, I was reading about the head of the EU saying yesterday that they have sent £1billion Euro's worth of arms to Ukraine since the start of the war but also in that time given £35billion Euro's to Russia for Oil & Gas...

 

[Isopod]

We shouldn't be discussing this on PF. It's too emotional now.

I think it sounds like you need some time out from this Ukraine news coverage and this kind of discussion. And that is totally Ok (and very important!).In this day & age of never-ending anxiety producing news coverage (war, global warming, pandemic, etc), if you're to maintain good mental health, then self-regulation over what kind of news content & discussions you subject yourself to is very important.I certainly get too much of my fill of the war in Ukraine sometimes (too many disturbing stories and stressful turns of events, I've certainly lost sleep over Ukrainian events many times since this all began) so I do sign out of the news sometimes to help keep me focused on what I need to do in my own life and to help protect my welbeing.But even if you know exactly where you stand, I feel its important to not spread opinions which could possibly (at a glance) feed into Putin's narrative.Pro-Kremlin bot accounts are seriously responsible for huge part of the rise in many problems in the West, such as spreading anti-vax theories and misinformation about Covid-19:"From Russia with hate: How pro-Kremlin bots are fuelling chaos and lies about the pandemic": https://metro.co.uk/2021/07/10/how-...elling-covid-19-conspiracy-theories-14867186/"Study Shows How Russian, Chinese Disinformation About COVID-19 Evolved During The Pandemic": https://www.rferl.org/a/russia-china-covid-disinformation-campaigns/31590996.html"Covid Conspiracies Leak From Russia’s Lie Labs": https://cepa.org/covid-conspiracies-leak-from-russias-lie-labs/To spreading alt-right narratives in the West:"Russia’s propaganda machine amplifies alt-right": https://thehill.com/policy/cybersecurity/348054-russias-propaganda-machine-amplifies-alt-right/"Russian ‘botnet’ promotes far-right messages in German election": https://www.politico.eu/article/russian-botnet-promotes-far-right-messages-in-german-election/"Exclusive: Russian operation masqueraded as right-wing news site to target U.S. voters - sources": https://www.reuters.com/article/usa-election-russia-disinformation-idUSKBN26M5OP"Troll factories, bots and fake news: Inside the Wild West of social media": https://www.aljazeera.com/features/...ake-news-inside-the-wild-west-of-social-mediaAnd now the Kremlin is turning its attention to use its bot accounts & troll factories to spread misinformation about Ukraine & spread pro-Russian sentiments:"Anti-vax conspiracy groups lean into pro-Kremlin propaganda in Ukraine": https://www.politico.eu/article/antivax-conspiracy-lean-pro-kremlin-propaganda-ukraine/"‘Bot holiday’: Covid disinformation down as social media pivot to Ukraine": https://www.theguardian.com/media/2022/mar/04/bot-holiday-covid-misinformation-ukraine-social-media"Twitter bot network amplifying Russian disinformation about Ukraine war, researcher says": https://www.abc.net.au/news/science...rk-amplifies-russian-disinformation/100944970"How Russian “Troll factory” tried to effect on Ukraine’s agenda. Analysis of 755 000 tweets": https://voxukraine.org//longreads/twitter-database/index-en.html"Infamous Russian Troll Farm Appears to Be Source of Anti-Ukraine Propaganda": https://www.propublica.org/article/...pears-to-be-source-of-anti-ukraine-propagandaSuch a huge amount of the problems we have seen in the West from vaccine misinformation & anti-vaxxer movements to rises in racism, homophobia, intolerance, general paranoia and more, did not happen organically in the echo chambers of the internet, but were directly artificially engineered and stoked by Putin's virtual bot war on the West. And he does this to not only politically and socially destabalize and weaken us (look at the Capital Riots!), but to manipulate far-right people into positions of power who are sympathetic towards Russia (I mean just look at the state of so many governments in the mightiest Western countries now- they are so infected with Russian money and pro-Kremlin people! Its unreal).

Putin is not just an enemy of Ukraine, but to science and all our freedoms.

I used to be very dubious when it came to our wars abroad but when it comes to Ukraine, I have no doubts about where I stand with that and where I stand with Putins Russia. And while we likely aren't told the entire truth all the time, that doesn't matter to me; I will try to never do or say anything which could undermine or doubt anything that the Ukrainians are going through because I stand with Ukraine and because I don't want to feed into any of Putin's "Illusory Truth Effect" ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illusory_truth_effect ) game against both Ukraine and the entire Western world.

It is our patriotic duty, of national importance to our democracies & freedoms, to fight the war of words against Putin online with our own strong, united and unflinching narratives which utterly dispute the pro-Kremlin agenda and which stand firmly with the West.

 

[pinball1970]

I wonder what kit this constitutes this time around, I was reading about the head of the EU saying yesterday that they have sent £1billion Euro's worth of arms to Ukraine since the start of the war but also in that time given £35billion Euro's to Russia for Oil & Gas...

Yes that is true.

That has been discussed in the thread, we are currently playing ball in terms of energy supply because that is where we are.

UK has indicated changing supplier by the end of 2022.

I will sleep easier if they pulled the plug now, unfortunately we have industry schools transport and ICU wards that need Putins oil.

It stinks but that is where we are.

 

[pinball1970]

"UK PM Boris Johnson is meeting German Chancellor Olaf Scholz for talks and will give a joint news conference later"

 

[Isopod]

Russian atrocities: Evidence of civilian killings, rape and torture in northern Ukraine | DW News​

Sharing space with the dead - horror outside Chernihiv, Ukraine - BBC News​

I want Putin dead

 

[pinball1970]

These are small things but we have to take them.

All proceeds go to humanitarian relief.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-61037080

 

[Isopod]

These are small things but we have to take them.

All proceeds go to humanitarian relief.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-61037080

That's really cool of Pink Floyd to reunite for Ukraine!

Muse are also doing some concerts for Ukraine in London on 9ths/10th May:

https://www.billboard.com/music/rock/muse-intimate-london-shows-aid-ukraine-1235050015/

Portishead, IDLES and Billy Nomates are doing one on 2nd May:

https://www.nme.com/news/music/port...bristol-war-child-concert-for-ukraine-3200058

And The Royal Opera House is holding a concert for Ukraine on the 15th April:

https://www.roh.org.uk/tickets-and-events/the-royal-opera-concert-for-ukraine-details

(Ed Sheeran, Camila Cabello and Gregory Porter also obviously did a concert recently for Ukraine: https://www.theguardian.com/music/2022/mar/25/it-feels-like-live-aid-all-star-concert-for-ukraine-joins-war-relief-effort )

 

[pinball1970]

Ok last one for a bit

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-61038122

£275 billion is not a small amount of money.

 

[Vanadium 50]

There are limits to diplomacy

Yes there are. One of tehm is called "war":. Is that the one you are advocating for?

 

[russ_watters]

The problem, as ever, is that no one has any claim to views that are more valid than anyone else's. I have my views and others have theirs and we will never agree even on basic facts. I wish it was otherwise, but it's not.

From a practical standpoint that is clearly true, but from a scientific/logical and moral standpoint it clearly isn't/can't be. Even as [physics] Relativity tells us there are different ways to view and describe the same events, the events themselves are unambiguous/non-negotiable. The only real issue in the way of understanding accurately and universally is whether they've been observed/measured/communicated accurately. "I'm driving 60mph" and "I'm driving 5mph" seem to contradict, but don't if described more completely: "I'm driving 60mph wrt the ground" and "I'm driving 5mph faster than the guy I just passed."

The first line is a statement on moral relativity, which again is true in practice and can function for small scale/low stakes issues, but it doesn't work globally/universally...even though a lot of people believe it. It's what Hobbes was talking about and what society exists to correct/prevent.

War is the ultimate in moral absolutism and sitting on the sidelines and watching atrocities is moral relativism in practice, but moral cowardice in belief. Nearly everyone in the world shares the same view on the immorality of offensive war and the need to protect civilians. The proliferation and enforcement of moral absolutes, replacing "might makes right" and "not my problem" relativism is what ushered in the era of historically unparalleled peace since WWII.

@Rive is right on the platitude that the victors make the rules. It only limited in truth at best. Germany and Japan have both signed the Geneva conventions, including ones from prior to WWII. And the US is clearly a rulemaker on the global stage despite losing in Vietnam and Afghanistan. It seems victors and defeated alike agree on the rules, even if they don't follow them. Perhaps the better platitude would be "rules for thee, not for me"? Regardless of who makes them.

Also, a bit of a throw-in, but the "the victor writes the history books" is an even worse platitude. It may have been true in ancient times when conquerors erased the existence of the conquered, but it certainly hasn't been true for a century or several. Regardless of who wins in Ukraine, it's not going to change how history views the conflict to this point.

 

[bob012345]

Yes there are. One of them is called "war":. Is that the one you are advocating for?

We all want peace but there are two roads to peace. One is appeasement with aggressors and the other is through victory. In this case I would choose peace through victory. There is no moral equivalence to both sides in this war.

 

[PeroK]

As they always do, as innocent civilians. It's why I hate all this posturing by the bigger powers as it's always the civilians which end up suffering most in any conflict through no fault of their own :(

The millions of Russian civilians who have supported Putin and who support this war are not suffering in the way the Ukrainians are. I can't imagine there have been any Russian civilian deaths other than those inflicted against anti-war protesters.

Meanwhile, the Ukrainian armed forces are suffering casualties. I don't see why the death of a Ukrainian soldier is any less tragic than the death of a Ukrainian civilian.

This is a war of aggression by one country on another. Increasingly the purpose of that war is to kill as many Ukrainians as possible. Even to suggest a moral equivalence here is at best intellectual cowardice and at worst inhumane in the extreme.

 

[artis]

And the US is clearly a rulemaker on the global stage despite losing in Vietnam and Afghanistan

Don't forget Korea.

Also, a bit of a throw-in, but the "the victor writes the history books" is an even worse platitude. It may have been true in ancient times when conquerors erased the existence of the conquered, but it certainly hasn't been true for a century or several.

When I said it I did not meant it as a blanket statement, clearly there are different levels of rewriting history.
The free world largely has open access to information so someone in US believing in historical false hoods does so either out of his own lack of knowledge and stupidity or because of his choice, but it's not the same in countries like Russia and China for example.
In Russia especially during the Soviet years the history rewriting was so massive that many simply had no choice but to learn a history as it was taught to them.
So your statement only applies to certain parts of the world not the whole world.
Today it's harder to conceal the truth thanks to information technology but still the amount of people in Russia who will believe Ukrainians brought this upon themselves will be in the millions.

I just played chess with a Russian online, talked few words over Ukraine, he said Zelensky can end this at any time and then there will be no civilian suffering. All he has to do is to admit Crimea and Donbas as Russian land... Lavrov himself couldn't have said it better.If you want an extreme example see Afghanistan , Taliban doesn't allow girls to finish school, so they don't even have to rewrite history to suit there twisted way of life, they simply don't know history altogether.

 

[russ_watters]

When I said it I did not meant it as a blanket statement, clearly there are different levels of rewriting history.
The free world largely has open access to information so someone in US believing in historical false hoods does so either out of his own lack of knowledge and stupidity or because of his choice, but it's not the same in countries like Russia and China for example.
In Russia especially during the Soviet years the history rewriting was so massive that many simply had no choice but to learn a history as it was taught to them.
So your statement only applies to certain parts of the world not the whole world.

That's a totally different thing, but it speaks to the more accurate description of the issue: Autocrats and imperialists/conquerers rewrite history regardless of whether they win or lose. Free societies don't.

 

[PeroK]

The war in Ukraine reveals these things:

1) The unlimited capacity for human cruelty and barbarity. We may all have this capacity in our DNA, but ultimately the rule of any law and the judgement of people is what you do and not what someone else claims you might be just as capable of doing.

2) The unlimited capacity for endurance and suffering. In one sense, Ukraine cannot surrender as the atrocities thereafter would have no constraints. However many the Russians can kill in a war pales in comparison with the extermination of 40 million people that they could carry out against a defeated Ukraine.

There is no moral equivalence here. And, it may not be "good" against "evil", but it is one side fighting for the right to live and survive and one side fighting for the right to exterminate an entire population.

 

[russ_watters]

1) The unlimited capacity for human cruelty and barbarity.

Ain't that the truth. I was just talking about this with a non-western friend who scoffed at the bubble we westerners live in. We've allowed ourselves to believe that that capacity disappeared after WWII and would "never again" happen/be allowed to happen. But that's just our privilege of being in that bubble.

 

[artis]

Autocrats and imperialists/conquerers rewrite history regardless of whether they win or lose.

Just to give an example of what I said , I mentioned the Katyn massacre earlier.

If you grew up during the USSR times you simply learned in history that Katyn was done by Germans. There simply was no way of even know the truth. Radio, TV , papers were all easily controllable media formats.
Libraries had only books approved by special commissions that had read each book before approving it for mass usage. Unless you had some aunt who directly witnessed those events and could pin point which man in which uniform did what you had no way of knowing.

You couldn't even put such information within artistic satire or a film, because those had to go through the KGB special commission on arts etc too, there was a special branch of KGB that only focused on literature , others on movies and cinema, music, books, not a word uttered could escape someones mouth unless it wasn't screened.

So whenever we talk about why Russians believe in propaganda so much well part of the reason is because their system has never ever in history given them anything besides just that.
The brief years of Yeltsin were merely a drop of water within the Sahara.

If it wasn't for the internet and modern means of quick transportation and communication Russia would be effectively not much further where it was in 1917 in terms of information,Well there were people from the intelligentsia and some others that knew the truth behind many events but they could barely say it to others. The only real change came with Gorbachev and in the second half of 80's.
So much so one of our local politicians dared to speak in Moscow in the Kremlin palace of Congress in 1988 IIRC, where he read out the secret parts of the Molotov Ribbentrop pact and openly claimed that Latvia had been invaded and occupied by the USSR in 1940.
The man who said it was Mavriks Vulfsons.
When he said what he said even in 88, there was a silence in the auditorium and the shock permeated the hall, some did not even know this was historic fact, others did not want to acknowledge.
https://www.baltictimes.com/news/articles/9651/
Just as a remainder, Russia hasn't admitted any of the invasions and occupations that happened during the buildup of the USSR in the 20th century till this day, there should be no illusion they will admit anything with respect to Ukraine

 

[Vanadium 50]

Are you arguing that the West should declare war on Russia?

 

[pinball1970]

Are you arguing that the West should declare war on Russia?

We are already fighting a war, a propaganda war, a financial/sanctions war, a munitions war. We are not firing any bullets or sacrificing our soldiers or watching our women and children die , we are getting the Ukraines to do that for us.

 

[artis]

Are you arguing that the West should declare war on Russia?

Is that a question for me ?

 

[bob012345]

Are you arguing that the West should declare war on Russia?

An unofficial state of war exists. Any official declaration should be only if Russia attacks a NATO country. We should just recognize that Ukraine is fighting for the whole Western World and we need to support them with weapons and supplies to make sure they prevail. They have plenty of willing fighters.