- #176
Yonoz
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I hope this will end soon. IDF warplanes dropped 23 tonnes of bombs on a bunker that may have housed a Hizbullah leadership meeting.
My point is, that is escalation.russ_watters said:Latest count is something like 900 rocket attacks in the past week and there was, of course, one incursion before Israel responded. What is your point? - that's how wars start, with a single act!
As stated, Israel overreacted as usual, meaning I expect such action.Yonoz said:What kind of response did you expect?
BTW IMO it's the media that's over-reacting. I know there's a slim chance you'll believe me, but I'd like to mention that most of what I see on BBC and CNN is grossly inaccurate. You get the impression as if Beirut in its entirety is targetted, while only one neighbourhood is being bombarded and that after being showered with pamphlets asking civilians to get away several hours earlier. Of course, foreign reporters never go into that Hizbullah neighbourhood so they have no idea.
So in regard to history I will briefly say that, in general, changes in borders--or in this case creating a new nation state will always result in conflict so I question the wisdom of creating Israel in the first place. But it has been done, and I wish the world could just move on in peace. And I say "the world" because unfortunately the entire world is dragged into this ongoing conflict
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0607/19/lkl.01.htmlShimon Peres said:PERES: No, no. We informed publicly, we told many of the Lebanese people who live among the terrorists, we told them either get rid of the missiles or leave your homes. We warned them and then we let everybody that wants to get out, we stopped the shooting and we let everybody go out. Nobody was hurt, by the way. And also, the numbers of the victims are not acceptable.
We think the information coming from Lebanon is totally unreliable, as their behavior is unacceptable. So we're not impressed by it. I know that every night our headquarters hits house and house to make sure that no civilian life will be hit, that no civilian infrastructure will be destroyed. We are not inconsiderated.
Setting aside that Lebanon isn't differentiating between civilian and Hezbollah deaths*, "Against civilians" implies you think Israel was intentionally targeting civilians. Do you?cyrusabdollahi said:Did those 250 Lebanese civilians want Israel annihilated?
I can understand a reaction against Hezbollah, but not against civilians. Only 2 hezbollah out of 250 civilians, no. Find an effective way of killing Hezbollah if that's your goal. I have no problem if you can do that.
Contrast that with Israel, which specifically lists them separately:The Lebanese Internal Security Forces reported, however, that 216 people had been killed and 524 injured as of 8 p.m. (1 p.m. ET) Wednesday.
That's just one of the realities of dealing with a terrorist organization: it is virtually impossible to separate civilian and terrorist causalties because they go to great lengths to hide amongst civilians, which, of course, places the blame for the civilian deaths squarely on the shoulders of Hezbollah according to international law.With Wednesday's deaths, 29 Israelis -- 15 civilians and 14 soldiers -- have been killed in the weeklong fighting, according to the IDF.
Human shield is a military term describing the presence of civilians in or around combat targets to deter an enemy from attacking those targets. It may also be used to describe the use of civilians to literally shield combatants during attacks, by forcing the civilians to march in front of the soldiers during human wave attacks. Using this technique increases the civilian casualty rate and is highly illegal in any nation that is party to the Fourth Geneva Convention.
Worthless liberal B.S. rhetoric. Tell me: how did that work for dealing with Hitler?SOS2008 said:Violence begets violence (spiral escalation). It's better to take away their reason to be (anger), and replace it with hope for a better way of life.
Well what is "other reasonable means" and what would constitute a "valid effort"? We can go around in circles forever with this (and with SOS too) - 'war is not the answer' is a slogan, not a means for achieving peace. It is easy to criticize, but you guys are not providing real solutions. If you can't think of a "reasonable means", perhaps that is because there isn't one?kyleb said:Russ, I'm saying I don't see that other reasonable means had been exhausted, or even given a valid effort for that matter.
kyleb, it occurs to me you have no real grasp of the dynamics in this region. Here's an article to help you understand why Hizbullah is bad for the Middle East:kyleb said:Yonoz, could you please answer my question? How many Hizbullah attacks has there been since Israeli started attacking compared to Hizbullah attacks in the same number of days before that?
Worthless liberal B.S. rhetoric? Nice argument Russ :)Worthless liberal B.S. rhetoric. Tell me: how did that work for dealing with Hitler?
No one can deliver an accurate picture of Hizbulla and civilian casualties at this point. There's really no way to distinguish a Hizbullah activist from a civilian. I suggest you wait until the conflict is over, which will hopefully be quite soon, before you pass judgement. In the meantime here's the http://www1.idf.il/DOVER/../SIP_STORAGE/DOVER/files/4/54604.wmv" .cyrusabdollahi said:I can understand a reaction against Hezbollah, but not against civilians. Only 2 hezbollah out of 250 civilians, no. Find an effective way of killing Hezbollah if that's your goal. I have no problem if you can do that.
Yonoz said:kyleb, it occurs to me you have no real grasp of the dynamics in this region. Here's an article to help you understand why Hizbullah is bad for the Middle East:
http://www.waronline.org/en/analysis/pal_weapons.htm"
One of Israel's declared aims is to bring the Lebanese military to deploy in south Lebanon. The IDF keeps from attacking Lebanese military facilities unless they're involved in aiding Hizbullah, such as those naval radar installations. Mark my words: Lebanon's government, perhaps minus one Hizbullah minister, will emerge without a scratch.Anttech said:Hizbullah is bad for the region. But not Lebanon. If your govermenet bring down the government of Lebanenon you will land yourselfs in an even worse situation. The Vacum created by your disposing of a democratic government will be filled by Syria. Yes I aggree get rid of hezbullah.
On the contrary: the Lebanese government and people were at the hands of Hizbullah when this began. Hizbullah hijacked the Lebanese government's decision making. Hizbullah decided when Lebanon will be involved and to what extent in whatever conflict Hizbullah chose. Now that Hizbullah is "defanged", as someone put it, it can be just another normal political party.Anttech said:I highly doubt that, unless YOU pay for the damage you have cause to their infrastructure. Which is not what is going to happen. Maybe they will still be in power, but like lame ducks, not powerful leadership which is what that country needs.
We have had 2 children killed here yesterday, and you're concerned with Lebanon's tourism?!Anttech said:Tourism was on the up in Lebaneon, Hell I would have Loved to visit there. But after this no way. They have a fragile ecconomy and fragile goverment.
Because there will be no peace in the region if Hizbullah continue to harm Israeli civilians. If Hizbullah is not disarmed then there will be more attacks on Israeli civilians and more limited responses - so the tourism industry is the last thing you should be worried about.Anttech said:Yes I am! why shouldn't I be?
While a Lebanese terrorist coalition partner is killing Israeli civilians and kidnapping soldiers? What would Greece do if a Turkish party had its own private army and was shelling Greek towns and villages?Anttech said:Lebenon should and will be if left to its owe devices be a democratic secular state!
Bridges and runways are not "the fabric" of a civilian infrastructure. Power facilities, water pumps, dams, hospitals, police stations, government buildings - all these are left untouched. Don't fall prey to the now-tiresome hysteria.Anttech said:Yonoz, Israel is destroying the fabric of the civilian infrastructure in Lebenon, it will take years to repair and hundereds of millions of Euros.
Israel is bombing buildings and bridges. Hizbulla are bombing civilians. Is there any realistic circumstance under which you would see Israeli action as acceptable?Anttech said:The same cannot be said of israel.
It seems to me you want to see Israel hurt badly before it does anything to protect itself. I hope you understand me when I say I'd rather Israel struck first and save itself being hurt.Anttech said:I feel sorry for your blight, but I truly think the "punishment" that is being given back to lebenon is totally disproportionate.
...and a beautiful riviera. I sincerely hope it becomes those and more once again. I also wish I could visit there safely in my lifetime. Every Israeli I know feels the same. I'd like you to consider that other Middle-Eastern countries are misperceived just the same.Anttech said:I want to add for better perceptive:
For the people who are reading this thinking that Lebenon is a "Muslim" country or a radical islamic state out to terrorise Israel because of this. You would be completely wrong. Lebenon is more or less half Islamic half Christian. There are many Millions of Christians, of Eastern Catholic, And Greek Orthodox living in what is an acient and beatiful place, much like Israel. People describe Lebenon as a mediteranian Country like the south of Italy, Greece, coast of Turkey. It has many classical ruins and warm and welcoming people, who are highly educated, and once apon a time where the bed rock of finance for the region.
While a Lebanese terrorist coalition partner is killing Israeli civilians and kidnapping soldiers? What would Greece do if a Turkish party had its own private army and was shelling Greek towns and villages
Israel is bombing Trucks, roads, ports, airports bridges houses and civilians (unintentional or not they are doing it)Israel is bombing buildings and bridges. Hizbulla are bombing civilians.
I don't think that killing of civilans and destroying the fabic of a country is "defending" its attacking. And the outcome can be much worse for the region when the smoke settles.It seems to me you want to see Israel hurt badly before it does anything to protect itself.
No Hysteria here mate, just cold hard facts.now-tiresome hysteria.
Read what I have written again and tell me which part is untrue. Hizbullah is a terrorist organisation and a Lebanese coalition member.Anttech said:You are confussing Hezbolah and Lebenon. This is a big problem, and is obfusing what is happening. Recently a Turkish fight jet shot down a greek fighter jet over greek airspace, the greek solider died! We didnt start shelling Istanbul. Anyway that's beside the point, its not Lebenon its Hezbolah that are doing this.
Hardly the fabric of a civilian infrastructure. Houses are used to harbour weapons and Hizbullah facilities. I can think of no military that ever has had to deal with a remotely similar threat to its country's civilians and I think the IDF is doing a tremendous job so far. Just a reminder - over 1000 sorties in the first 4 days, more than 100 crafts over Lebanon at one point in time - hunting weapons hidden in population centres. Compare the casualties with any war in history (scaled to match) - I think you'll find they're among the lowest.Anttech said:Israel is bombing Trucks, roads, ports, airports bridges houses and civilians (unintentional or not they are doing it)
I think otherwise. Even if it is, I think Israel has no choice.Anttech said:And the outcome can be much worse for the region when the smoke settles.
"Israel is destroying the fabric of civilian infrastructure in Lebanon" is not a fact - it's an assumption. I've shown facts that disprove this assumption - i.e. that power facilities, water supplies, government offices, police facilities, hospitals, food storage and more - that do compose the fabric of the civilian infrastructure - are unharmed.Anttech said:No Hysteria here mate, just cold hard facts.
Yonoz said:Israel is bombing buildings and bridges. Hizbulla are bombing civilians. Is there any realistic circumstance under which you would see Israeli action as acceptable?
I would see a cease fire as acceptable, but the US does not, so now we're waiting fro the US to wave there magic wand and resolve the crisis
Fresh Air from WHYY, July 19, 2006 · Middle East expert Vali Nasr talks about the latest developments there, and about his book The Shia Revival: How Conflicts Within Islam Will Shape the Future.
Fresh Air from WHYY, July 19, 2006 · A few years ago, writer Jeffrey Goldberg spoke with Hezbollah leaders for a 2002 article in called "In the Party of God: Are Terrorists in Lebanon Preparing for a Larger War?" Goldberg will help us understand the background of the current unrest in Lebanon. Goldberg serves as Washington correspondent for The New Yorker.
I can't think of anything more untrue or insulting.Schrodinger's Dog said:Israel are bombing civillians and Hizbullah are bombing civillians, I don't think either side could killl more civillians if it started aiming for them deliberately.
...or because they know, like the rest of the world's leaders, that there's no place for an armed Hizbullah in Lebanon and the only way to solve this problem is to disarm them.Anttech said:yeap, wonder why they are not condemming anything ----hmmmm---- ohh yeah because of the Israeli lobbist in Washington