Is Anyone Truly in Control Amidst the Ukrainian Crisis?

[DevilsAvocado]

There are either >200,000 Russians in Germany or 2 million: that's quite a few people hiding in the closet or under the bed. I'm surprised the Germans have let things get out of hand so, considering what happened the last time 2 million Russians were in Germany.

Yes, it looks strange. I checked the source at Statistisches Bundesamt (my German is terrible) and in the pdf Ausländische Bevölkerung (page 40) it says:

der ehemaligen Sowjetunion = 514 311

Gebiet der ehemaligen Sowjetunion:
Armenien, Aserbaidschan, Estland, Georgien, Kasachstan, Kirgisistan, Lettland, Litauen, Republik Moldau, Russische Föderation, Tadschikistan, Turkmenistan, Ukraine, Usbekistan, Weißrussland (Belarus) einschließlich Personen mit der Staatsangehörigkeit der ehemaligen Sowjetunion ohne nähere Angabe.​

I don't know if it has anything to do with this... the numbers don't match anyway... or is it something in former DDR?

 

[SteamKing]

I don't know if it has anything to do with this... the numbers don't match anyway... or is it something in former DDR?

I don't think so. Even the Germans who used to live in the DDR moved west after Reunification, given the run-down state of the former DDR in terms of infrastructure and lack of jobs as state-owned enterprises were closed. What industry the Russians didn't strip from Germany and send east after the war was allowed to run down, and much war damage in cities like East Berlin went un-repaired. The West Germans have poured trillions of dollars into cleaning up and re-building East Germany, and the end of financial support is not yet in sight.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...s-to-a-halt-23-years-after-reunification.html

 

[Yanick]

So Russia is claiming that the armed people on the ground are not Russian solders but in fact just local people who support Russia? I can swear I have seen tanks and other armored vehicles (on my phone and too lazy to find a source ATM). Where do a bunch of local guys get assault rifles are armored vehicles to overthrow or overpower an established military presence. Are these Ukrainian soldiers who are defecting to the RF and stealing stuff? I watched a clip by a reporter who interviewed Ukrainians soldiers in Crimea and one commander informed him that about half of his men left the base to join the pro-Russian forces. See videos here: http://m.vice.com/vice-news/russian-roulette-the-invasion-of-ukraine-part-1 .

Another question I have is regarding the uncertainty about the military presence in the Ukraine. Are things like this (http://rt.com/news/usa-inspection-russia-skies-258/) and this (http://rt.com/news/ukraine-inspection-russia-troops-782/) even all that effective? Each piece mentions a prearranged route. So what's the point? Shouldn't people really be pressing the issue and determining who the hell is really on the ground with enough arms and organization to displace the established military (that is, Ukrainian) presence?

 

[Czcibor]

We're a scientific forum? :D Good, because I've found an analysis of recent conflict that tries to use game theory approach:

http://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2014/03/game-theory-ukraine

 

[russ_watters]

We're a scientific forum? :D Good, because I've found an analysis of recent conflict that tries to use game theory approach:

http://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2014/03/game-theory-ukraine

tl;dr...
The normal rules for conflict and international relations don't apply to Putin because he's corrupt, a warmongering bully, and doesn't care.

That's largely what makes this situation so grave/dangerous.

 

[Czcibor]

If anyone speak Polishs (or uses google translate :D) there is professional analysis done by Polish think tank, which effectively serves as open-source intelligence for my gov.

http://www.osw.waw.pl/pl/publikacje...zasowej-strategii-rosji-wobec-wschodu-ukrainy

Executive summary: Russians miscalculated by seriously overestimating their support. They expected mass demonstration in their support in whole eastern Ukraine, but immediately after Ukrainians started stopping hired trouble makers at borders, then whole protests practically extinguished. However, local people, inspired by Maidan (even when not enthusiastic about it), would actually seriously expect more decentralized political system.

 

[Cthugha]

There are either >200,000 Russians in Germany or 2 million: that's quite a few people hiding in the closet or under the bed. I'm surprised the Germans have let things get out of hand so, considering what happened the last time 2 million Russians were in Germany.

My guess is that this varying number is due to the question of how to treat the so called "Spätaussiedler". After world war 2, Germany lost all territories east of the Oder-Neisse-line. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oder–Neisse_line). However, not all Germans left. Those who stayed (and their children of course) were still Germans and were still allowed to return to Germany and did so in moderate numbers over time.

After the collapse of the Soviet Union a lot of them took the opportunity and "returned" to Germany. However, many of these Spätaussiedler already grew up in the Soviet Union, knew no German anymore and were socialized in the Soviet Union. So they were neither really Germans nor really Russians. My guess is that the strongly varying number here reflects the question of how to treat them in terms of these statistics.

 

[Czcibor]

My guess is that this varying number is due to the question of how to treat the so called "Spätaussiedler". After world war 2, Germany lost all territories east of the Oder-Neisse-line. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oder–Neisse_line). However, not all Germans left. Those who stayed (and their children of course) were still Germans and were still allowed to return to Germany and did so in moderate numbers over time.

After the collapse of the Soviet Union a lot of them took the opportunity and "returned" to Germany. However, many of these Spätaussiedler already grew up in the Soviet Union, knew no German anymore and were socialized in the Soviet Union. So they were neither really Germans nor really Russians. My guess is that the strongly varying number here reflects the question of how to treat them in terms of these statistics.

During communist in Poland we joked that people were desperately looking whether in family there was at least a German shepherd ;)

Yeah, in the most cases of people who emigrated they had already seriously diluted German blood. The threshold to be allowed to emigrate because of nostalgia for Vaterland was I think 1/8.

 

[SteamKing]

My guess is that this varying number is due to the question of how to treat the so called "Spätaussiedler". After world war 2, Germany lost all territories east of the Oder-Neisse-line. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oder–Neisse_line). However, not all Germans left. Those who stayed (and their children of course) were still Germans and were still allowed to return to Germany and did so in moderate numbers over time.

After the collapse of the Soviet Union a lot of them took the opportunity and "returned" to Germany. However, many of these Spätaussiedler already grew up in the Soviet Union, knew no German anymore and were socialized in the Soviet Union. So they were neither really Germans nor really Russians. My guess is that the strongly varying number here reflects the question of how to treat them in terms of these statistics.

It's not clear how many Germans remained east of the O-N line after the war. When former German territory was turned over to Poland, when the Czech government returned to power, etc., large numbers of Germans were expelled from these areas, like Silesia and the Sudetenland, and forced to move into the occupied zones of Germany. It has been estimated that more than 12 million Germans were expelled from eastern Europe and resettled in Germany by 1950.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsion_of_Germans_after_World_War_II

Given the bitterness of the conflict, any Germans who remained in eastern Europe after the war did so at risk of life and limb.

Ethnic Germans who had immigrated to Russia much earlier, the Volga Germans, were eligible for a time to settle in Germany after the fall of the USSR, but that door has now been closed. Even though these people may no longer speak German or a German dialect, they are still ethnically German and it is unclear if they would be classified as Russian instead of German in a population study.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volga_Germans#The_20th_century

 

[DevilsAvocado]

I don't think so. Even the Germans who used to live in the DDR moved west after Reunification, given the run-down state of the former DDR in terms of infrastructure and lack of jobs as state-owned enterprises were closed.

My guess is that this varying number is due to the question of how to treat the so called "Spätaussiedler". After world war 2, Germany lost all territories east of the Oder-Neisse-line. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oder–Neisse_line). However, not all Germans left. Those who stayed (and their children of course) were still Germans and were still allowed to return to Germany and did so in moderate numbers over time.

Thanks guys, this seems to be a quite 'complicated matter'... from the pdf Bevölkerung mit Migrationshintergrund – Ergebnisse des Mikrozensus 2011 (page 8):

Most people with a migration background come from Turkey (18.5%), followed by Poland (9.2%), the Russian Federation (7.7%) and Italy (4.9%). Kazakhstan is at 5.8%, the only major non-European origin country. With 1.4 million most (late-)Aussiedler come from the successor states of the former Soviet Union – mainly from the Russian Federation (612,000) and Kazakhstan (575,000); beside it are Poland (579,000) and Romania (213,000) important countries of origin.​

7.7% ≈ 6,000,000 ...

And things start to get real 'multifaceted' in the Wikipedia article Russians in Germany:

[my bolding]

There is a significant Russian population in Germany. The collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991 triggered mass immigration to the West, with Germany being the top destination, mostly for economic and ethnic reasons. Russians are the biggest migrant group in Germany, together with Turks.

There are about 3,500,000 native Russian speakers in Germany, split largely into three ethnic groups: ethnic Russians, Russians descended from German immigrants, and Russian Jews.

560,178 people in Germany were categorized as ethnic Russians in 2007. Their number is growing.

Between 1992 and 2007, a total of 1,797,084 ethnic Germans from the former USSR emigrated to Germany. [...] The number of non-German relatives who emigrated along with them is not known, but many if not most are presumably members of Germany's ethnic Russian community.

Most Russian-Germans have assimilated and integrated well into German society. As with most other immigrant groups, there remain some contemporary issues. German authorities have been concerned that the high number of Russian immigrants self-segregating in certain neighborhoods hinders social integration. This has led to restrictions on immigration from Russia and the former Soviet Union. Other issues have included crime, drugs, poverty and unemployment.

The Aussiedler have raised many issues. Although they were expected to assimilate rapidly into German society, Aussiedler and their descendants are struggling with their identity, and most consider themselves Russian. In Russia, due to outside pressure, they had become assimilated into Russian society, in most cases speaking Russian as their first or only language, and this has made their return difficult. Native Germans typically consider them Russian, just as they consider German-Americans visiting Germany to be American, despite their German surnames.

Maybe "some" would interpret this as millions of 'native Russians' in need of "immediate help"... while "others" would point to a few hundred thousand, doing very well in their new country.

I dunno...

 

[Bandersnatch]

7.7% ≈ 6,000,000 ...

That's the percentage of the immigrant population(which is 16 million), not of the total German population(80 million). Check the wiki page on German demographics.

 

[DevilsAvocado]

That's the percentage of the immigrant population(which is 16 million), not of the total German population(80 million). Check the wiki page on German demographics.

Well, I did warn for my terrible German!

(thanks )

P.S: 7.7% x 16 million = 1,232,000 ≈ 1.4 million (late-)Aussiedler, right? So where are the 560,178 ethnic Russians? And the 3.5 million native Russian speakers? Confusing...

 

[DennisN]

An economic war seems to be upcoming (I'm not surprised);

[...]

EU SUPPORT FOR KIEV

In Brussels, the 28 EU leaders underlined their support for Ukraine's new leadership following Yanukovich's fall in street protests. They signed a political agreement with interim Prime Minister Arseniy Yatseniuk and promised financial aid for the government - rejected as illegitimate by Moscow - as soon as Kiev reaches a deal with the International Monetary Fund.

The IMF is to report next Tuesday on advanced talks with Ukraine on a loan program that would be linked to far-reaching reforms of the shattered economy.

Three months of protests were set off by Yanukovich's refusal to sign an association agreement with the EU, the political part of which was signed on Friday.

The EU agreed to impose asset freezes and visa bans on 12 more mid-ranking Russian and Crimean officials and to consider wider economic sanctions if Russia further destabilizes the situation in Ukraine. But the EU does not have a legal basis to extend personal sanctions against Putin associates without proof of their involvement in the violation of Ukrainian sovereignty.

"Small measures in the EU are worth more than big measures in the United States," a senior European official said, noting that EU trade with Moscow was 10 times the U.S. volume.

A PANDORA'S BOX OF SANCTIONS

Russia's MICEX stock index fell about 3 percent when trade opened, although it recovered some of the losses later. Promsvyazbank analyst Oleg Shagov said Obama had "opened a Pandora's box full of sanctions", with future sanctions to be "directed against whole sectors of the Russian economy".

Negative market sentiment was reinforced by warnings from credit ratings agencies Fitch and S&P that they were changing their outlooks on Russia to negative from stable because of the possible impact of sanctions on Russia's economy and business climate. Both agencies presently rate Russia BBB.

Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev made clear that Russia would step up financial pressure on Ukraine. He said the former Soviet republic should repay Moscow $11 billion under a gas supply contract that should be scrapped because it no longer applied.

Medvedev said the agreements under which Russia was to provide cheap gas in return for the lease of the Sevastopol naval base in Crimea were "subject to denunciation", giving Russia a legal right to sue for money back from Ukraine.

Altogether, Kiev owed Moscow $16 billion, he added.

Source: http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/21/us-ukraine-crisis-idUSBREA2K0MC20140321 (Reuters)

 

[DevilsAvocado]

An economic war seems to be upcoming (I'm not surprised);

Yup, it has started (thank god).

President Obama Speaks on Ukraine (Mar 20, 2014)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P27AaOqbDa4
http://www.youtube.com/embed/P27AaOqbDa4

There are now intense activities among some of the oligarchs to avoid serious financial losses. Gennady Timchenko has sold his 23% stake in Gunvor Group Ltd (the fourth largest crude oil trader in the world) to Swedish co-founder Torbjörn Törnqvist:

Oil firm stake sold to Swede to duck US sanctions

Torbjörn Törnqvist, a director at Gunvor Group Ltd, tells Radio Sweden he is "outraged" that the US put the
company's co-founder on the Russian sanctions list.

Gennady Timchenko has close connections to Russian President Vladimir Putin, and even if there are no direct proofs – there are several indications that http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ru&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.energofond.ru%2Fen%2Fnovosti%2Fnovatek_becoming_putin%60s_offensive_reconnaissance_in_the_market%2F (friend) in the business of oil trade. Timchenko has an estimated fortune of $14.1 billion USD (ranked 62nd in Forbes).

Gennady Timchenko

Also today, http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/21/ukraine-crisis-sanctions-smpbank-idUSL6N0MI16B20140321 for Russia's SMP Bank (43th in net assets). Boris Rotenberg and his older brother Arkady, who received large contracts for the Sochi Winter Olympics, are co-owners of SMP Bank.

And the MICEX Index is implementing the "Putin Roller Coaster"...


"Now this is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning." -- Winston Churchill

 

[DennisN]

By the way, I don't think anyone has posted this before (I hope)
- besides what they say, the body languages and facial expressions are interesting IMO:

Ukraine PM accuses Russia of military aggression at UN (from 13 March)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymt0v_Qic6o

There are some other UN clips on Ukraine available here. I'm going to watch them now, I think...

 

[DennisN]

Ukraine crisis: Russia agrees to OCSE monitoring mission
Russia's approval of six-month deployment seen as possible indication of slight de-escalation of tensions

Source: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/21/ukraine-crisis-russia-agrees-ocse-monitoring-mission (The Guardian)

 

[Monsterboy]

Was the referendum legitimate or not ? Were the Crimeans forced to vote for Russia? When i saw in the BBC Crimeans were celebrating for their reunion with 'mother Russia'.

 

[Czcibor]

Was the referendum legitimate or not ? Were the Crimeans forced to vote for Russia? When i saw in the BBC Crimeans were celebrating for their reunion with 'mother Russia'.

In Sevastopol the support for Russia in the referendum was quite high... 122%.

But except from obvious fraud there is also some genuine support.

 

[DevilsAvocado]

Was the referendum legitimate or not ? Were the Crimeans forced to vote for Russia?

Was there an alternative??

This was the original referendum question:

The Autonomous Republic of Crimea has its own state independence and is a part of Ukraine on the basis of agreements and treaties. (yes or no)
​

That on 6 March was changed to:

Choice 1: Are you in favor of the reunification of Crimea with Russia as a subject of the Russian Federation?

Choice 2: Are you in favor of restoring the 1992 Constitution and the status of Crimea as a part of Ukraine?

​

Check out the formulation of Choice 2: Restoring what? Who broke it? Putin? What version of the "1992 Constitution", the "Republic of Crimea" or the "Autonomous Republic"??

Current Crimean Constitution is from 1999 and states that any changes in the Crimean Constitution must be approved by the Ukrainian parliament.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/11/us-ukraine-crisis-referendum-idUSBREA2A1GR20140311.

http://cdn29.elitedaily.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/crimea-vote-elite-daily.jpg

 

[DevilsAvocado]

Ukraine crisis: Russia agrees to OCSE monitoring mission
Russia's approval of six-month deployment seen as possible indication of slight de-escalation of tensions

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

[DevilsAvocado]

Can someone stop this Talking Head!?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VKpVK_v6hA
http://www.youtube.com/embed/3VKpVK_v6hA

A man who has become a millionaire by shareholdings and board membership in companies like Lundin Petroleum and Vostok Gas (holdings in Putin's Gazprom), and who is co-responsible for the clearance of Putin's Nord Stream gas pipeline – should today maybe keep a slightly lower profile...

It was revealed following the organization WikiLeaks release of classified diplomatic documents that US diplomats considered Bildt as "stubborn", "arrogant" and to have "limited political skills". Bildt was described as thinking he has more power and influence than he really has and was called a "medium size dog with big dog attitude". The US president George W. Bush was advised before a meeting to "play on Bildt's desire to operate at a high level" and to pretend to be impressed by his previous international assignments. Other US diplomats and politicians were also advised to play on Bildt's self-image to "keep him on a good mood".

 

[mheslep]

Was the referendum legitimate or not ? Were the Crimeans forced to vote for Russia? When i saw in the BBC Crimeans were celebrating for their reunion with 'mother Russia'.

Democratic elections work, i.e. are legitimate, when they are held under law, the electorate know the outcome, and trust that it was more or less valid via free press access, etc. When there's an occupying army on the ground, with http://news.yahoo.com/kidnapping-reports-raise-pre-referendum-tensions-crimea-203434209.htmlt, that can not ever be the case.

 

[Dotini]

Can someone stop this Talking Head!?

If I understood him correctly, FM Bildt seemed to be indicating to the reporter that Putin can be expected to keep up pressure on Ukraine, with the goal of eventually controlling Kiev itself.

I have a question about the Ukraine military. They seem to be operating very passively, and without much in the way of orders or direction from Kiev. Can someone please shed some light on the relationship between the Ukraine military and government in Kiev?

 

[Borek]

I have a question about the Ukraine military. They seem to be operating very passively, and without much in the way of orders or direction from Kiev. Can someone please shed some light on the relationship between the Ukraine military and government in Kiev?

My guess - but it is just a guess - is that any orders they may have indicate to not use weapons. Government in Kiev is perfectly aware of the fact they stand no chance in terms of military conflict, so they don't want it to escalate it - instead they concentrate on building a political pressure.

 

[Dotini]

I ran across this McClatchy report which aligns well with that guess, and briefly summarizes the military situation in Ukraine.
http://www.sacbee.com/2014/03/21/6258059/as-russia-formally-annexes-crimea.html

 

[DevilsAvocado]

If I understood him correctly, FM Bildt seemed to be indicating to the reporter that Putin can be expected to keep up pressure on Ukraine, with the goal of eventually controlling Kiev itself.

Yes, in principle he is right, but then most goes wrong... it's a long story (hope I'm not getting off-topic now?).

Carl Bildt originates from an old Norwegian-Danish-Swedish noble family ("Uradel") with roots in Norwegian and Danish Middle Ages, with a lot of prominent politicians and militaries in its history.

Carl Bildt's heraldic badge

Carl Bildt grew up as a neighbor to the (Olof) Palme family, and when they both later became Members of Parliament there were always razor-sharp and combative debates on foreign affairs between the older and internationally recognized Olof Palme and the younger eager Carl Bildt.

Carl Bildt always strived to become a "Man of the World" (as Olof Palme already was), and in 1981 his chance came when the Soviet submarine U 137 (S-363) ran aground close to one of Sweden's larger naval bases, with political mayhem as consequence.

[no English subtitles]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJa0YNBYP1g
http://www.youtube.com/embed/yJa0YNBYP1g

During the rest of 1980s there was a series of several incidents involving foreign submarines, and Carl Bildt was very active blaming the Soviet Union for the intrusions and thereby escalating tension with Moscow. Bildt's "political war" with Soviet/Russia has never really stopped, and because of his 'heritage', some made mocking parallels to the Great Northern War (1700–1721) and the Battle of Poltava 1709 (Ukraine) where the Swedish/Polish army lost against a twice as big army of Russians and Cossacks, which marked the decline of Sweden's as a Great Power as Russia now took over as the leading nation of north-eastern Europe.

Battle of Poltava 1709 (Ukraine)

And this has gotten much worse lately; where http://televisionsreviewss.blogspot.co.uk/2013/12/russian-mockery-television-on-bildt.html and is supposed to be behind the unrest in Ukraine in order to avenge Charles XII's defeat at Poltava (sigh).

[no English subtitles]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHd2jeVGGgc
http://www.youtube.com/embed/LHd2jeVGGgc

This makes Carl Bildt maybe the worst 'diplomatic negotiator' EU can come up with at the moment, and his involvement in Putin's gas business makes the whole thing even worse, not to say almost 'burlesque'.

I think it's best for everyone if Carl Bildt stays a little more in the 'background' until all this is over... we don't want another "Poltava" on our neck...

I have a question about the Ukraine military. They seem to be operating very passively, and without much in the way of orders or direction from Kiev. Can someone please shed some light on the relationship between the Ukraine military and government in Kiev?

I think Borek hit the nail.

 

[DennisN]

My guess - but it is just a guess - is that any orders they may have indicate to not use weapons. Government in Kiev is perfectly aware of the fact they stand no chance in terms of military conflict, so they don't want it to escalate it - instead they concentrate on building a political pressure.

That's my guess too.

I think Borek hit the nail.

Me too.

EDIT:
Latest from Reuters; according to the article below, Russia is now in control of all Ukrainian military facilities in Crimea, and NATO's top military commander is worried about Moldova's separatist Transnistria region:

NATO commander warns of Russian threat to separatist Moldova region

(Reuters) - NATO's top military commander said on Sunday that Russia had a large force on Ukraine's eastern border and he was worried it could pose a threat to Moldova's separatist Transdniestria region.

The warning comes a day after Russian troops, using armored vehicles, automatic weapons and stun grenades, seized the last military facilities under Ukrainian control in Crimea, the Black Sea peninsular that Russian President Vladimir Putin formally annexed on Friday.

[...]

Source: http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/23/us-ukraine-crisis-idUSBREA2M09920140323

If I read the map correctly, Transnistria is landlocked.

 

[OmCheeto]

I am very disappointed on Mr. Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin, whom has acted very logical and responsible up till now. Does The Great 21th Century Tsar not understand that there are much more crucial "anonymous-land-grabbing" to be done elsewhere, as is clearly indicated on the Russian diaspora "Help Me!" list:

<image deleted by Om, to save bandwidth>

The only logical order of priority must be: Ukraine, Germany, Latvia and then Estonia & United Kingdom!


Edit - Note: strong irony warning

[If there is anything more to this than a rhetoric war of words – it's insane]

Sorry for the necro-post^[1], but your image is somewhat disingenuous.

The global numbers for Russian diaspora yield the following ranking:

Ukraine....8,334,000
Kazakhstan...4,480,000
United States...3,163,084

Which would indicate, that we Americans, are third in line for the Putin Protection Program.

Anyways...

This thread has prompted me to go back and review some of my Swiss Cheezy^[2] history.

...marry him off the German princess Sophia of Anhalt-Zerbst (better known as Catherine the Great). Catherine's son, Paul I was particularly proud to be great-grandson of the illustrious Russian monarch, although his mother insinuated in her memoirs that Paul's natural father had been her lover Serge Saltykov, as opposed to her husband, Peter.

Catherine the Great, was German?
And she messed around with the local boys?
Girls...
I wonder if my great-great-great grandfather wondered why his kids looked more like the Ukrainian mailman, than him.

Another thing I discovered, thanks to prompting by:

Catherine the Great invited Germans to settle southern Russia in the 18th century, where they pioneered on the steppes between Saratov and Tsaritsyn (later Stalingrad, then Volgograd). These 'Volga Germans' were allowed to keep their German language and religion and lived unmolested until the outbreak of WWII. Stalin forced the evacuation of the Volga Germans eastward to Siberia and Kazakhstan, and few ever returned to their former homes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volga_Germans

led me back to find out which society I once belonged to: http://www.ahsgr.org/Index.htm

Our past is in the archives
and records from villages in
Russia, Ukraine and the Black Sea

as I knew I wasn't a Volga German.

Although it's been nearly 30 years since I saw the envelopes, I distinctly remember that the postmarks were from Odessa.

And that prompted me to find my aunt's name in the archive, and find out that the letters spanned the period of 1909 through 1933. Which seems to confirm my suspicion, that the Holodomor was a fact.

But that is neither here, nor there. It is simply a fact.

Moving on, I googled the name of the town in which my German/Ukrainian ancestors lived, as no one, 30 years ago, knew where the town was, and I was delighted by the fact, that someone had figured it out.

It is 50 kilometers north of the city of Odessa. (Not being a very good student, I didn't realize back then, that there was also an "Oblast" named Odessa.)

This Lutheran cemetery is not being used today and is known by the Rohrbach Cemetery name since it was established in 1809/10 when the village was colonized by the Germans. Later when the Germans were killed or removed the tombstones were destroyed, removed and scattered and some were used in local buildings. This destruction was done to stop the Germans from wanting to return to the villages where their ancestors were buried. The Germans planted lilacs in the cemetery and can easily be found near the villages.

That's it.

And in conclusion, I would just like to state, that I love you all.

Going forward, any member whose post doesn't meet "current event" guidelines...

Mar5-06, 04:39 PM

...if moderator action is required due to violation of any of the above forum-specific guidelines, the member committing the violation will receive a 3-day ban to “cool off” and a 5 point warning.

Feb27-12, 05:41 PM

Effective immediately all infractions in P&WA will be doubled, both in points and duration.

I know what a doubling of 5 means. And I know that calling someone "disingenuous" means that I've basically called him a liar, which violates the rules.

Ciao!

------------------------
[1] Remember when a necro-post meant "More than a year ago", and not "4 days ago".
[2] Full of holes.

 

[SteamKing]

Odessa, being a major seaport, naval base, and resort on the Black Sea, was a rather cosmopolitan town, attracting many immigrants who worked in the shipping industry. It was the fourth largest city in the Russian empire and was designated a 'free port' in 1819, which provided the impetus for many immigrants to locate there.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odessa

On the subject of the Romanovs, there was much intermarriage between the members of the Romanov dynasty and the princely houses of western Europe, particularly the German ones. In fact, Nicholas II's wife was German, and a descendant of Queen Victoria of Great Britain, which did not endear her to her subjects before WWI, and especially not after the outbreak of war. Nicholas' family tree shows kinship with a variety of European aristocrats, and on his mother's side of the family, he was descended from the kings of Denmark and various German princes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancestry_of_Nicholas_II_of_Russia

 

[DevilsAvocado]

NATO commander warns of Russian threat to separatist Moldova region

If I read the map correctly, Transnistria is landlocked.

Gosh, let's hope it is 'false alarm'... :/

Yes, it is landlocked:

But it looks like there are already 1,200 Russian troops there...

 

[DevilsAvocado]

Sorry for the necro-post^[1], but your image is somewhat disingenuous.

The global numbers for Russian diaspora yield the following ranking:

Ukraine....8,334,000
Kazakhstan...4,480,000
United States...3,163,084

Which would indicate, that we Americans, are third in line for the Putin Protection Program.

Of course it's disingenuous Om, I think I even pointed out that the whole thing is insane!

This way of "counting souls" as grounds for invasions and possible wars, is like Fred Flintstone popping up at the Paris Motor Show trying to impress the visitors with his brand new "Four Feet Car"... i.e. "dinosaur politics" in a global world where people travel, move, fall in love, do business, etc with whom they ever wish – without asking "The Great 21th Century Tsar" for permission.

No worries mate! I :!) you too!

If there is any 'italicization' at the horizon; I will submit my personal very strong plea, and then commit 'camaraderie-italicization-hara-kiri-silly-cide'! ()

 

[DevilsAvocado]

Viktor Yanukovych, Ukraine's disgraced former president and mass murderer, has urged the country to hold a series of regional referendums that could create more Crimea-style breakaway zones.

http://en.itar-tass.com/world/725689

"As the president whose thoughts and heart are together with you, I call on each reasonable citizen of Ukraine - don’t let the impostors use you! Demand a referendum on the determination of the status of each region within Ukraine"

The man who gave nobleness a new face

 

[DevilsAvocado]

Vladimir Putin wants all Russians to be tough like Steven Seagal

Russia’s President Vladimir Putin and American action movie actor Steven Seagal visit a newly built sports
complex of Sambo-70 prominent wrestling school in Moscow. Sambo is the official in-house martial art of
the KGB security services which Putin practiced before switching to judo. (ALEXEI NIKOLSKY/AFP/Getty Images)

[...]
Few have had more experience throwing fake grenades than Steven Seagal, who, for reasons unclear, has a huge bromance going with Vladimir Putin. “I want to be polite and say I don’t know him very well,” said Seagal, wearing dark glasses and a pensive expression, in an interview last year. ”I would like to think I know him well. But I know him well enough to know that he is one of the greatest world leaders, if not the greatest world leader alive.”
[...]
Their pairing hit a crescendo when Seagal and Putin waded together into a throng of flag-waving children. Seagal, unsure, got closer to Putin, and the Russian leader proceeded to pantomime quite possible the most awkward hand gestures ever.

Seagal’s face went like this:

Dazzling news... what does Putin's awkward hand gesture mean? Is it a new secret Sambo weapon? Or, is this the birth of "Putin in da house coolness"? Or, is he simply turning off the gas? Does Seagal know? Does Putin know?

It's a wacky crazy world...

Anyhow, maybe it's a good sign that Putin wants all Russians to be "tough like Steven Seagal" as we all know; Seagal is a chunky worn-out B actor with too much Russian oil in the hair, which seems not to have improved intellectual capabilities noticeably.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nl8rgWUgmR8
http://www.youtube.com/embed/nl8rgWUgmR8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qx6aoHc6YF4
http://www.youtube.com/embed/qx6aoHc6YF4

 

[mheslep]

Vladimir Putin wants all Russians to be tough like Steven Seagal

What's next, and audience with ambassador Dennis Rodman? This is near lunatic behavior if sincere. I hope it is part of some lark or propaganda ploy: "hey look, I'm a little crazy, better not provoke me with sanctions"

 

[OmCheeto]

What's next, and audience with ambassador Dennis Rodman? This is near lunatic behavior if sincere. I hope it is part of some lark or propaganda ploy: "hey look, I'm a little crazy, better not provoke me with sanctions"

Not sure why people of old become italicized, in political threads, but here's my biblical effort:

California begets Hollywood
Hollywood begets movies
Movies beget Reagan
California begets governor Reagan
America begets president Reagan
(fill in the 30 years of begets, yourself)
Reagan begets the present

The present:

Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin, Steven Frederic Seagal, and Dennis Keith Rodman, all walk into a bar...

Nichogo ne rozumiu = Ookranski for "I know nothing"

If this were just Hollywood, it would be a very funny script.

hmmm... wait a minute...