What Exactly Is Happening In the Arab/Persian World?

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In summary, the protests in Egypt are continuing and there are reports of violence and fires. The situation is not looking good for the government.
  • #806
WhoWee said:
"We" have "acted" - that is my point - what do "we" do now? These people don't have the protections afforded US citizens - this is not a group of people wanting a landlord to fix the heat (IMO). Words matter and actions have consequences (again, IMO).

In the context you present, given the regimes... it's fight or die. You're right, "Alea iacta est", "The die has been cast". I think we have an obligation to protect people that we encourage to protest, and on the other hand have provided the means of supressing that protest.

It will take more than a pretty speak, I think we both agree on that, to make it clear that we're not playing both sides againt the middle.
 
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  • #807
nismaratwork said:
In the context you present, given the regimes... it's fight or die. You're right, "Alea iacta est", "The die has been cast". I think we have an obligation to protect people that we encourage to protest, and on the other hand have provided the means of supressing that protest.

It will take more than a pretty speak, I think we both agree on that, to make it clear that we're not playing both sides againt the middle.

Dangerous game - even with a plan.
 
  • #808
WhoWee said:
Dangerous game - even with a plan.

Yep, and AFAIK it's one we always lose, or win with serious blowback. Still... what else can be done once, as you say, these moves have been made?

If you're saying, did Obama say the right things... no, I think this has been his greatest failing in office.
 
  • #809
CNN's Arwa Damon, on the scene in Bahrain is reporting that right now, shots (possibly live rounds) are being fired into peaceful demonstrators. She's saying that as the protestors approached, the riot police too a knee (2 rank shooting) and opened fire.
 
  • #810
Is this developing into an uncontrollable madness mayhem... BAHRAIN, LIBYA, JORDAN, YEMEN, EGYPT, IRAN, IRAQ, SENEGAL, UGANDA ... ? :eek: :eek: :eek:

http://translate.google.com/translate?js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&sl=sv&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fsvt.se%2F2.58360%2F1.2330693%2Futskriftsvanligt_format%3Fprinterfriendly%3Dtrue&act=url"

CNN: 20 KILLED IN LIBYA

(I heard about "tanks" and "African mercenaries"...? :bugeye:)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FXyWI0yG2g
 
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  • #811
The UN has weighed in - not sure anyone is listening though?

http://www.middle-east-online.com/english/?id=44432

"In a rare departure from his usual caution, UN chief Ban Ki-moon Thursday slammed moves to quell a wave of anti-government protests in Arab nations urging "bold reforms, not repression."

"Sustainable progress can take roots in places where people are empowered, where governments are responsive, where growth is inclusive," Ban told a press conference at the United Nations.

"In a number of countries transitions have been initiated or reforms have been promised. It is crucial that leaders deliver on those promises," he added.

The unrest has spread to other nations since Tunisia deposed its long time ruler last month and Egypt's veteran president Hosni Mubarak stood down last week, both as a result of people power revolts.

"I will say it once again: the situation calls for bold reforms, not repression," Ban said."
 
  • #812
WhoWee said:
The UN has weighed in - not sure anyone is listening though?

http://www.middle-east-online.com/english/?id=44432

"In a rare departure from his usual caution, UN chief Ban Ki-moon Thursday slammed moves to quell a wave of anti-government protests in Arab nations urging "bold reforms, not repression."

"Sustainable progress can take roots in places where people are empowered, where governments are responsive, where growth is inclusive," Ban told a press conference at the United Nations.

"In a number of countries transitions have been initiated or reforms have been promised. It is crucial that leaders deliver on those promises," he added.

The unrest has spread to other nations since Tunisia deposed its long time ruler last month and Egypt's veteran president Hosni Mubarak stood down last week, both as a result of people power revolts.

"I will say it once again: the situation calls for bold reforms, not repression," Ban said."

I don't even kow if there's anyone who can afford to listen. This is rapidly turning into something that is going to require intervention to secure the Suez. Iran challenging the largest Sunni state, and an uprising in the other major Shiite nation? Israel must be field-stripping their guns right now... I know I would be.
 
  • #813
Yes and the two Iranian warships have passed through the Suez Canal... heading to...?
 
  • #814
nismaratwork said:
I don't even kow if there's anyone who can afford to listen. This is rapidly turning into something that is going to require intervention to secure the Suez. Iran challenging the largest Sunni state, and an uprising in the other major Shiite nation? Israel must be field-stripping their guns right now... I know I would be.

Stepping back objectively, the Suez might be the only secureable interest - "super power" stuff- everything else might be considered a "local matter". This is the UN's big moment - isn't it?
 
  • #815
WhoWee said:
Stepping back objectively, the Suez might be the only secureable interest - "super power" stuff- everything else might be considered a "local matter". This is the UN's big moment - isn't it?

Agreed, but only in theory; in practice I think we'd both agree that they'd have their... tushies... handed to them.
 
  • #816
DevilsAvocado said:
Yes and the two Iranian warships have passed through the Suez Canal... heading to...?

My guess? Nowhere important now. They now have a presence in the region, and they've made their first "point" with the 'new' Egyptian ruling body.

edit:

CNN video: http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/meast/02/18/bahrain.protests/index.html?hpt=T2
As well, CNN reports, that 20 have been killed, and 200 more wounded during protests in Libya (Benghazi).
There is also unrest in Kuwait... and damn it I have friends there. The one I've talked to today was unaffected, but the tension is growing between the populace, and the huge amount of imported labor.
 
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  • #817
This might have come up in the thread before, but I think the key to all of this is information technology. Historically, it seems that new means of distributing information lead to changes in the political and social order. The printing press and glasnost in the USSR are the first examples that come to mine. It seems the internet has sparked a new way for young people in these countries to exchange and receive information.

Question: I have heard some talk that young people constitute a silent majority in these countries (Although many i saw in protest videos were not "young people". Are they a literal majority? If so, what accounts for these demographics?
 
  • #818
median age in egypt is 24: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Egypt#Median_Age

in other news, US asserts its right to oversee the colonization of palestinian territories

http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/mobile/?type=story&id=2014266562&st_app=ip_news_lite&st_ver=1.2
Updated Friday, February 18, 2011 at 07:16 PM
U.S. vetoes U.N. resolution on Israeli settlements
By EDITH M. LEDERER
Associated Press

The United States vetoed a U.N. resolution Friday that would have condemned "illegal" Israeli settlements and demanded an immediate halt to all settlement building, a move certain to anger Arab countries and Palestinian supporters around the world.

The 14 other Security Council members voted in favor of the resolution, reflecting the wide support for the Palestinian-backed draft which had over 100 co-sponsors.

U.S. Ambassador Susan Rice said the United States agrees with the rest of the council and the wider world "about the folly and illegitimacy of continued Israeli settlement activity." But she said the U.S. believes "it is unwise" for the U.N.'s most powerful body to attempt to resolve key issues between the Israelis and Palestinians.

The vote put President Barack Obama in a difficult position, both internationally and domestically.
...

you don't say
 
  • #819
Proton Soup said:
median age in egypt is 24: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Egypt#Median_Age

in other news, US asserts its right to oversee the colonization of palestinian territories

http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/mobile/?type=story&id=2014266562&st_app=ip_news_lite&st_ver=1.2

you don't say

And good for US! Good for the U.S., too. A simple search on "criticisms of the United Nations" reveals countless detailed complaints; many of them are valid. It's good thing for the key member nations to raise the "no" flag as a check on UN aspirations.
 
  • #820
I’m speechless.

*** Warning! Graphic Video! ***

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ztNrUlIp-I

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YRhyWovF2us

Rough Translation: "We were going there, chanting 'Peaceful, peaceful,' we even raised our hands." (Other person says, "We even had flowers.") "They were not kidding. They had machine guns, not rifles or hand weapons, literally machine guns with tripods, and they opened fire. People ran away! A person in front me instantly died after a head shot, I tried to grab him and carry him away, I was in complete state of shock."
 
  • #821
The situation in Libya is horrible.

Moammar Gadhafi's forces fired on mourners leaving a funeral for protesters Saturday in the eastern city of Benghazi, killing at least 15 people and wounding scores more as the regime tried to squelch calls for an end to the ruler's 42-year grip on power.

Libyan protesters were back on the street for the fifth straight day, but Gadhafi has taken a hard line toward the dissent that has ripped through the Middle East and swept him up with it. Government forces also wiped out a protest encampment and clamped down on Internet service throughout Libya

Snipers fired on thousands of people gathered in Benghazi, a focal point of the unrest, to mourn 35 protesters who were shot on Friday, a hospital official said.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110219/ap_on_re_af/af_libya_protests
 
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  • #822
mugaliens said:
And good for US! Good for the U.S., too. A simple search on "criticisms of the United Nations" reveals countless detailed complaints; many of them are valid. It's good thing for the key member nations to raise the "no" flag as a check on UN aspirations.

Man I'm glad you believe you that too.

Evo: It's going to get MUCH worse; Ghaddafi is utterly ruthless, a monster, and he has an entire bedouin community willing to charge in and kill pretty much ANYONE. He can have mercanry forces do it, and frankly I'm shocked that the military in Benghazi hasn't massacred the people yet. It sounds bad, but sniping a crowd is a warning in Libya... you'll know when it's gone TRULY wrong when you start to see submachine guns... that's about wading into a crowd and cutting it down, not a force protection or regional contrl.

AFAICT, as long as he holds Al 'Azīzīyah and Tripoli, he can just bomb his own people... I don't believe he cares. He also seems willing to outrage any nation to hold his own... doubtless he realizes that outside of Libya and his power-structure, he's a dead man.

DA: That's sad to watch, but thank you for posting it.
 
  • #823
nismaratwork said:
AFAICT, as long as he holds Al 'Azīzīyah and Tripoli, he can just bomb his own people... I don't believe he cares. He also seems willing to outrage any nation to hold his own... doubtless he realizes that outside of Libya and his power-structure, he's a dead man.

Whatever it takes to stabilize that place. I don't believe Middle East is ready for things like democracy. Even if the rulers are overthrown that is not going to get people what they are protesting about i.e. better living conditions. However, it might make Middle East more unstable.
 
  • #824
rootX said:
Whatever it takes to stabilize that place. I don't believe Middle East is ready for things like democracy. Even if the rulers are overthrown that is not going to get people what they are protesting about i.e. better living conditions. However, it might make Middle East more unstable.

Generally I'd agree with you, but Libya... I can be a very cold person, but Libya is hell for its people. I can't imagine something worse than Ghaddafi emerging... just another broken African nation, which Libya already is.
 
  • #825
mugaliens said:
It's good thing for the key member nations to raise the "no" flag as a check on UN aspirations.
I couldn't agree more wholeheartedly. In fact, I'm immensely disappointed that the US hasn't been more proactive with raising the "no" flag when ...
... the UN was condemning Gaddafi's calls for jihad against Switzerland, or when
... the UN was condemning al Bashir for his ravages against the Southern Sudanese, or when
... the UN was condemning Kim Jong Il's attacks on the South, or when
... the UN was condemning Saddam for his invasion of Kuwait ...
... you know, just as a check on UN aspirations.
 
  • #826
Gokul43201 said:
I couldn't agree more wholeheartedly. In fact, I'm immensely disappointed that the US hasn't been more proactive with raising the "no" flag when ...
... the UN was condemning Gaddafi's calls for jihad against Switzerland, or when
... the UN was condemning al Bashir for his ravages against the Southern Sudanese, or when
... the UN was condemning Kim Jong Il's attacks on the South, or when
... the UN was condemning Saddam for his invasion of Kuwait ...
... you know, just as a check on UN aspirations.

Hmmmm... on the other hand this isn't meant to be fair or kind... it's a tool like any other.
 
  • #827
rootX said:
Whatever it takes to stabilize that place. I don't believe Middle East is ready for things like democracy. Even if the rulers are overthrown that is not going to get people what they are protesting about i.e. better living conditions. However, it might make Middle East more unstable.

Wasn't the whole point of the Iraq intervention to "bring democracy to the middle east"?

I think better living conditions is obviously what they desire, but it also seems to be about having a say in their governments. And contrary to what many western talking heads are claiming, I have not seen any protestors calling for sharia law or a theocracy.
 
  • #829
Proton Soup said:
bahrain is home to the US Fifth Fleet and naval centcom
http://www.worldtribune.com/worldtribune/WTARC/2007/me_gulf_08_01.asp
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naval_Support_Activity_Bahrain

the shootings above took place at Pearl Roundabout, which is on the other side of Manama relative to the US base and embassy.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...family-orders-army-to-turn-on-the-people.html

Yeah... it really makes one proud to be American. We cover the massacres, we just don't do anything.

Of course, except for those fine white Christians in Bosnia (fighting against Muslims I'd add), we seem content to let everyone else slaughter each other. I think the last few decades have made it very clear that our foreign policy is a clenched fist and a rude gesture.
 
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  • #830
I'm transcribing the following from a CNN interview with a Libyan woman in Benghazi, Libya.

Libyan Woman on CNN said:
Please help us we have no guns Obama please help us we do nothing! 'Cause I am afraid. We have not freedom here, no freedom... everything is sad. The soldiers, ah go from the camp, they say 'We are with you, we are with you,' we, uh we we believe them! Some people believe them, and after that *begins to cry* they start shooting the people! Why? *sobbing* Why?! Why they lie? We are afraid.
 
  • #831
Now this is an interesting and unexpected development:
http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/meast/02/19/bahrain.protests/index.html?hpt=T1

This is sure to end well... :rolleyes:

CNN said:
Manama, Bahrain (CNN) -- Thousands of joyous Bahrainis retook a major square in the heart of the island nation's capital Saturday -- a dramatic turn of events two days after security forces ousted demonstrators from the spot in a deadly attack.

The sight of citizens streaming into Pearl Roundabout came as the Bahrain royal family made moves designed to end a turbulent week of unrest.

Crown Prince Salman ordered the removal of the military from the Pearl Roundabout, a top demand by opposition forces, and told CNN's Nic Robertson that citizens would be permitted stay in the spot without fear.

Bahrain's military said it "successfully completed" its mission of "safeguarding vital areas in the center of the capital" and withdrew to its camps. Police were placed in charge but withdrew from the roundabout on the heels of the military.
 
  • #832
Evo said:
... My mother was born and raised in Algeria, my uncle was kidnapped in Libya and held as a political prisoner,

Evo said:
The situation in Libya is horrible.


Do you still have relatives there?? :frown:
 
  • #833
nismaratwork said:
My guess? Nowhere important now.

Seems like they have a hard time deciding if they are going to Syria for training, or chasing Somali pirates...

http://articles.cnn.com/2011-02-18/world/egypt.iran.warships_1_suez-canal-iranian-warships-egypt?_s=PM:WORLD"

2lnfnv4.jpg

The Alvand

33f49y9.jpg

The Kharg
nismaratwork said:
They now have a presence in the region, and they've made their first "point" with the 'new' Egyptian ruling body.
yoy0j.png
 
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  • #834
:smile:

Best cartoon ever.
 
  • #835
DevilsAvocado said:
Do you still have relatives there?? :frown:
No, thank goodness.
 
  • #836
nismaratwork said:
Best cartoon ever.

:smile: (better smile while we can... :rolleyes:)
 
  • #837
Evo said:
No, thank goodness.

Phew!
 
  • #838
nismaratwork said:
This is sure to end well... :rolleyes:

Crown Prince Salman ordered the removal of the military from the Pearl Roundabout, a top demand by opposition forces, and told CNN's Nic Robertson that citizens would be permitted stay in the spot without fear.

Sounds like a concession to me. Would you rather he keep beating them down?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but a key difference between Bahrain and Egypt is that in Bahrain we don't have two factions of civilians warring against one another as we did with the anti-Mubarek and pro-Mubarek supporters in Egypt.

Salman offered his condolences, cautioned citizens and security forces to restrain themselves, and said the country wants a nation where neither Sunni or Shiites are favored.

Good luck! Until everyone gives up their ties to Sunni or Shiite versions of Islam, it's not going to happen. We have a two-party system here in the US, although it falls more along strictly political, rather than religious lines. To date, while our Presidents have run the gamut of Protestant affiliations and no affiliations, we've only had one Catholic president: John F. Kennedy.
 
  • #839
DevilsAvocado said:
Proton Soup, are you there? This video shows exactly my 'worries'. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayaan_Hirsi_Ali" has personal experiences from MB and Islam. Yes, maybe she is a (right-wing?) "scarecrow" lady, but it’s risky to ignore her experiences completely...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D57a8j0P3Ss
It's not clear to me what exactly Hirsi Ali is proposing (but as is typical of a rapid-fire interview, I don't think there was quite enough time for her to explain herself at length), though I believe I get the gist of it. But if you listen carefully, you have, for instance...

Ayaan Hirsi Ali (4:08): "What we need to do is stop worrying about the Muslim Brotherhood."

Here's another opinion on the MB, from Queen Noor: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7QE4_ew90w&feature=relmfu Is it surprising that a Jordanian has a significantly different opinion of the MB than a Kenyan? I don't think so. Why is it that you no longer seem to care about that specific line from the wiki page on the MB that you chose to emphasize upthread?

We could go ad nauseum with this, but I doubt that a back-and-forth of personal opinions serves any particularly useful purpose.
 
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