What Exactly Is Happening In the Arab/Persian World?

[DevilsAvocado]

Isn't it amazing how the "Libyan Strongman" responds to a real threat?

YUP! Besides being a Borderline BPD he’s a REAL COWARD!

 

[DevilsAvocado]

WOW!
when did this happened?? its a bit surprising because it looked the rebels we losing their momentum

Yeah I know... it probably only took Nicolas Sarkozy talking about "military operations"...

 

[WhoWee]

This is could be an opportunity for Italy to take him by the hand and help him find a better way - timing is important.

 

[DevilsAvocado]

huuuum... I don’t think anyone in the west would even take in this man by tongs... maybe china...

 

[WhoWee]

huuuum... I don’t think anyone in the west would even take in this man by tongs... maybe china...

Let me re-phrase - this could be an opportunity for the Italians to put a leash on this dog and lead him around. Italy has a long relationship and uses a significant amount of their oil - they should step up or continue to trust chance?

 

[BobG]

*** LIBYA READY FOR CEASEFIRE ***

http://au.news.yahoo.com/world/a/-/world/9034338/libya-ready-for-ceasefire-deputy-minister/

This is a surprise. Even accounting for the probability that several nations may have some preliminary plans in anticipation of a UN resolution implementing a no-fly zone, it's hard to believe an international operation could be operating and implementing the resolution overnight.

My initial reaction to the UN resolution is that it was too late to be meaningful.

I guess we'll see whether the cease fire by the Libyan government is real - especially if rebel forces take the almost natural step of using the opportunity to renew their efforts against the Libyan government.

I would have expected the UN resolution to serve as a clock for Gadahfi, meaning he had to pull out any stops he had left to pull (if any) in order to end the revolution before international forces actually started bombing his air defense systems.

 

[DevilsAvocado]

... I guess we'll see whether the cease fire by the Libyan government is real

I’m afraid the False Snake is lying again... it does not look good right now...

 

[DevilsAvocado]

Let me re-phrase - this could be an opportunity for the Italians to put a leash on this dog and lead him around. Italy has a long relationship and uses a significant amount of their oil - they should step up or continue to trust chance?

This is just my personal guessing: IF this man survives – he will face http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12636798" .

Not being lead around...

 

[WhoWee]

This is just my personal guessing: IF this man survives – he will face http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12636798" .

Not being lead around...

If he survives this - who is going to arrest him and put him on trial?

 

[DevilsAvocado]

If he survives this - who is going to arrest him and put him on trial?

They guys who will win this "battle" + UN personnel/forces.

Yesterday, it looked unsure where this was going. Today, there is no doubt – the man has lost. He has basically THE WHOLE WORLD against him.

Not even China or Russia are supporting him actively... there is NO way he will survive this in the long run... and when the men closest to him realizes this – he is finished.

 

[DevilsAvocado]

BBC: 'Western' air force heading for Libya.

 

[WhoWee]

They guys who will win this "battle" + UN personnel/forces.

Yesterday, it looked unsure where this was going. Today, there is no doubt – the man has lost. He has basically THE WHOLE WORLD against him.

Not even China or Russia are supporting him actively... there is NO way he will survive this in the long run... and when the men closest to him realizes this – he is finished.

Won't that require UN ground forces?

 

[nismaratwork]

*** LIBYA READY FOR CEASEFIRE ***

http://au.news.yahoo.com/world/a/-/world/9034338/libya-ready-for-ceasefire-deputy-minister/
/QUOTE]

They announced a cease-fire, but by all accounts it has not yet occured. It's a cagey move, because the first move is to attack AA and RADAR installations... do we start that even if there's nothing flying?

I think it sets a bad precedent to make this resolution and not follow through... appeasement has never worked AFAIK. We have the green light for 'All necessary means'... it's time to kill Ghaddafi and his sons, and remove his AA capability before he can organize and make good on that cease-fire.

@WhoWee: Yes, ground forces, but UN, not US, or NATO.

@FizixFreak: As I understand it, this has been primarily about Pakistan from the start, betweent he western and eastern provinces. It seems clear that the two killed were in fact, robbers, but I can't imagine that letting someone go without the judicial process sits well with your people. The combintion of some kind of blood money to the family and not being used as a wedge in an internal division seems like the best course.

Mind you, the best thing would have been if this american had died. Don't get me wrong, I think, he acted in self-defense, but the trouble he's caused for two nations could have been avoided had he simply been robbed, or killed. That's a minor incident, the central government could work the provinces to find a couple of robbers, which would be a binding force.

Instead, we have two dead men and a further divide in a country that MUST remain stable for its own sake.

 

[nismaratwork]

YUP! Besides being a Borderline BPD he’s a REAL COWARD!

Don't get me wrong, Ghaddafi is an animal, less than an animal... his sons are monsters as well. They're not stupid however, and this isn't cowardice, it's the calculus of manipulation.

 

[DevilsAvocado]

Won't that require UN ground forces?

That wouldn’t be a problem once MG has lost, would it? The rebels are cheering the UN resolution...

IMHO, there is no way to predict exactly how this will develop, but that MG will finally lose.

This man is totally crazy. Yesterday he was "threatening" that the whole Mediterranean area will be "completely destroyed" if western forces intervene...

He might as well say (when he realize the he will be killed by the rebels if caught) – "I give up! Come and get me now please!"

We just don’t know... this man is not rational...

 

[nismaratwork]

That wouldn’t be a problem once MG has lost, would it? The rebels are cheering the UN resolution...

IMHO, there is no way to predict exactly how this will develop, but that MG will finally lose.

This man is totally crazy. Yesterday he was "threatening" that the whole Mediterranean area will be "completely destroyed" if western forces intervene...

He might as well say (when he realize the he will be killed by the rebels if caught) – "I give up! Come and get me now please!"

We just don’t know... this man is not rational...

Yep, he's crazy with a capital "BLEEAAAAHHGGGH Hoot Hoot YAAA!"

 

[DevilsAvocado]

CNN: NATO air force along Libya north coast.

 

[nismaratwork]

CNN: NATO air force along Libya north coast.

Well, you know the first step is to destroy AA capability... that's going to happen over the next few hours... nobody has come this far to allow Ghaddafii to declare a bogus ceasefire.

With the Arab League and UN on board, I can only hope that the move after establishing an NFZ/DMZ is to assassinate the Ghaddafis.

 

[FizixFreak]

They announced a cease-fire, but by all accounts it has not yet occured. It's a cagey move, because the first move is to attack AA and RADAR installations... do we start that even if there's nothing flying?

I think it sets a bad precedent to make this resolution and not follow through... appeasement has never worked AFAIK. We have the green light for 'All necessary means'... it's time to kill Ghaddafi and his sons, and remove his AA capability before he can organize and make good on that cease-fire.

After having the upper hand on the rebels it does seems fishy to some extent i agree with you it is to early to celebrate this guy is quite different from Mubarak he is pure evil even the international pressure and collapsing infrastructure couldn't phase him he bombed his own people like they are nothing what these tyrants don't understand is that if they take out their own people who the hell will be left to rule i think you and i both agree that this guy needs to die like a dog!

@FizixFreak: As I understand it, this has been primarily about Pakistan from the start, betweent he western and eastern provinces. It seems clear that the two killed were in fact, robbers, but I can't imagine that letting someone go without the judicial process sits well with your people. The combintion of some kind of blood money to the family and not being used as a wedge in an internal division seems like the best course.

All about Pakistan you are kidding right? "between the eastern and western provinces" nope it was between the Punjab and Provincial government to some extent though and let me tell you that when this incident actually happened the police tried to cover up Raymond they almost convinced the media and the entire nation that these guys were robbers but when the investigation was transferred to higher authorities they declared that those guys were innocent other wise what was the need of blood money and by the way the reason why one of the guys had a gun is because his brother was killed in an ongoing dispute with another party and he had a license for that as well.

Mind you, the best thing would have been if this american had died. Don't get me wrong, I think, he acted in self-defense, but the trouble he's caused for two nations could have been avoided had he simply been robbed, or killed. That's a minor incident, the central government could work the provinces to find a couple of robbers, which would be a binding force.

I never thought you were that harsh but no doubt that it caused a lot of trouble for both nations and while its over for you but its far from over for us because this decision has been challenged in court

 

[nismaratwork]

After having the upper hand on the rebels it does seems fishy to some extent i agree with you it is to early to celebrate this guy is quite different from Mubarak he is pure evil even the international pressure and collapsing infrastructure couldn't phase him he bombed his own people like they are nothing what these tyrants don't understand is that if they take out their own people who the hell will be left to rule i think you and i both agree that this guy needs to die like a dog!

Agreed... Mubarak was just... Mubarak. I think people forget that the Middle East admires a tough man as leader, but over time I think Mubarak believed too many of his own stories, you know? Still, he listened in the end... not a good man, but as you say, not a monster. I'd add, what the hell is happening in Bahrain!? They just wrecked the square where protests were being held... what a cruel action.

All about Pakistan you are kidding right? "between the eastern and western provinces" nope it was between the Punjab and Provincial government to some extent though and let me tell you that when this incident actually happened the police tried to cover up Raymond they almost convinced the media and the entire nation that these guys were robbers but when the investigation was transferred to higher authorities they declared that those guys were innocent other wise what was the need of blood money and by the way the reason why one of the guys had a gun is because his brother was killed in an ongoing dispute with another party and he had a license for that as well.

Hmmm, it seems our respective media outlets are telling very different stories. Both are plausible, so I reserve judgment on the matter... all parties have reason to at least 'bend' the truth. The USA isn't new to it, but Pakistan isn't stupid (as you know)... I am surprised that they tried to cover it up. Countries shouldn't have to worry about ejecting someone with diplomatic immunity, it should be done with prejudice.

I think we'll never know exactly what happened, but for now at least maybe things can calm down a bit. Understand, the west generally sees Pakistan as potentially dangerous and divided, which is a rather limited view. The thing is, these events occur and confirm the very worst assumptions of Americans and Pakistanis; Americans are bullies and get away with things, and Pakistanis are just looking to nail an ex-soldier. Both are untrue of course, or at least, not MOST of the truth, but in both countries this does nothing except cause strife.

You have the USA and the central government quietly agreeing to drone strikes that the population as a whole is enraged about. On the USA side, people like me are torn... on one hand there are safe havens... on the other we kill a LOT of civilans... a lot. We're turning a country against us, and we're not recognizing how furious WE'D be if someone bombed saaay... California every so often, killing 10-30 civilians to get at a handful of 'bad guys'.

On the other hand, the USA is stretched thin due to our idiot invasion of Iraq, and actually trying to HOLD Afghanistan. I mean... Afghanistan... you'd think we'd learn at some point, right? Then, you have these unmanned aircraft that greatly appeal to a technologically saavy nation, and to commanders who only risk the lives of targets and civilians, not a pilot.

I don't think it's easy, but I think it's easIER than sending a sortie to bomb. I don't know how to reconcile this... I believe the only way to leave Afghanistan. If Al Qaeda gathers to train again, I suspect it's in Yemen and Somalia... Afghanis seem done with them. Given that... I don't know what on Earth we're doing there. We leave, and that means the current "Taliban" hiding in Eastern Pakistan cease to be targets. I just don't believe that any country or people can stand what we're doing, we're trying to fix our own mistakes in Afghanistan when we fought the Soviets by proxy, and in doing so we're creating more of the same in YOUR country.

If that's not madness, I don't know what it.

I never thought you were that harsh but no doubt that it caused a lot of trouble for both nations and while its over for you but its far from over for us because this decision has been challenged in court[/SIZE]

I can be very harsh, but it brings me no joy... my harshness comes from outrage and sadness. If one man had to die, be robbed, or whatever the hell happened... well... he was a solider. It would save more than 'trouble', it would be part of salvaging our wrecked relationship with your nation.

We play India against you, and you against India, and arm you both. I'm harsh because we've made such a mess of things already, and in a hard part of the world, that I think harsh is the only solution. Not harsh for ONE people, harsh for everyone involved; a clean cut. We need to accept that the Middle East is not something we understand very well, or operate particularly well in.

Sorry... I know this is an emotional issue for you, more than for me. I just try to see all of the angles and outcomes, and if a dead American, or a dead Pakistani saves deteriorating relations... so be it. We could have revoked his immunity, but the American public and diplomatic community would be outraged, and it would allow unscrupulous elements to set up embassy and other personnel.

Remember, if a Pakistani with diplo immunity did this in the USA, we'd expel the guy unless Pakistan withdrew immunity. People like Gaddafi's son Hannibal have done terrible things abroad with that protection.

On the level of one person, one life... it's unfair, but without diplomacy we have only isolationism and war. Diplomatic immunity can be abused, but without it the world would be unlivable.

 

[FizixFreak]

Agreed... Mubarak was just... Mubarak. I think people forget that the Middle East admires a tough man as leader, but over time I think Mubarak believed too many of his own stories, you know? Still, he listened in the end... not a good man, but as you say, not a monster. I'd add, what the hell is happening in Bahrain!? They just wrecked the square where protests were being held... what a cruel action.

Hmmm, it seems our respective media outlets are telling very different stories. Both are plausible, so I reserve judgment on the matter... all parties have reason to at least 'bend' the truth. The USA isn't new to it, but Pakistan isn't stupid (as you know)... I am surprised that they tried to cover it up. Countries shouldn't have to worry about ejecting someone with diplomatic immunity, it should be done with prejudice.

I think we'll never know exactly what happened, but for now at least maybe things can calm down a bit. Understand, the west generally sees Pakistan as potentially dangerous and divided, which is a rather limited view. The thing is, these events occur and confirm the very worst assumptions of Americans and Pakistanis; Americans are bullies and get away with things, and Pakistanis are just looking to nail an ex-soldier. Both are untrue of course, or at least, not MOST of the truth, but in both countries this does nothing except cause strife.

You have the USA and the central government quietly agreeing to drone strikes that the population as a whole is enraged about. On the USA side, people like me are torn... on one hand there are safe havens... on the other we kill a LOT of civilans... a lot. We're turning a country against us, and we're not recognizing how furious WE'D be if someone bombed saaay... California every so often, killing 10-30 civilians to get at a handful of 'bad guys'.

On the other hand, the USA is stretched thin due to our idiot invasion of Iraq, and actually trying to HOLD Afghanistan. I mean... Afghanistan... you'd think we'd learn at some point, right? Then, you have these unmanned aircraft that greatly appeal to a technologically saavy nation, and to commanders who only risk the lives of targets and civilians, not a pilot.

I don't think it's easy, but I think it's easIER than sending a sortie to bomb. I don't know how to reconcile this... I believe the only way to leave Afghanistan. If Al Qaeda gathers to train again, I suspect it's in Yemen and Somalia... Afghanis seem done with them. Given that... I don't know what on Earth we're doing there. We leave, and that means the current "Taliban" hiding in Eastern Pakistan cease to be targets. I just don't believe that any country or people can stand what we're doing, we're trying to fix our own mistakes in Afghanistan when we fought the Soviets by proxy, and in doing so we're creating more of the same in YOUR country.

If that's not madness, I don't know what it.
I can be very harsh, but it brings me no joy... my harshness comes from outrage and sadness. If one man had to die, be robbed, or whatever the hell happened... well... he was a solider. It would save more than 'trouble', it would be part of salvaging our wrecked relationship with your nation.

We play India against you, and you against India, and arm you both. I'm harsh because we've made such a mess of things already, and in a hard part of the world, that I think harsh is the only solution. Not harsh for ONE people, harsh for everyone involved; a clean cut. We need to accept that the Middle East is not something we understand very well, or operate particularly well in.

Sorry... I know this is an emotional issue for you, more than for me. I just try to see all of the angles and outcomes, and if a dead American, or a dead Pakistani saves deteriorating relations... so be it. We could have revoked his immunity, but the American public and diplomatic community would be outraged, and it would allow unscrupulous elements to set up embassy and other personnel.

Remember, if a Pakistani with diplo immunity did this in the USA, we'd expel the guy unless Pakistan withdrew immunity. People like Gaddafi's son Hannibal have done terrible things abroad with that protection.

On the level of one person, one life... it's unfair, but without diplomacy we have only isolationism and war. Diplomatic immunity can be abused, but without it the world would be unlivable.

Wow that was a long post sorry for the late reply by the way it took me an eternity to read through all of it and i do agree that we will probably never find out what really happened and i also appreciate how open minded you are on this matter we can't even tell what the hell is going on behind the "closed doors" of the senate.

"Humans will destroy them selves as soon as they are able too" quotation from a physicist and i think he is absolutely right in this thirst for absolute power and control humans really have not gained any thing i will not blame your government for acting as a bully why not blame my own for letting other bully them around? why not take a clear stand about the drone attacks?(last drone attack happened two days ago and it was on a "jirga" a tribal meeting killed 40 innocent men) i know its a bit depressing to say this but there is no doubt that with these type of "representatives" of human kind the fate of our species will definitely be catastrophic.

Enough of that what the hell is happening in Yemen police opens fire on protesters about 50 men are dead!

 

[nismaratwork]

Wow that was a long post sorry for the late reply by the way it took me an eternity to read through all of it and i do agree that we will probably never find out what really happened and i also appreciate how open minded you are on this matter we can't even tell what the hell is going on behind the "closed doors" of the senate.

"Humans will destroy them selves as soon as they are able too" quotation from a physicist and i think he is absolutely right in this thirst for absolute power and control humans really have not gained any thing i will not blame your government for acting as a bully why not blame my own for letting other bully them around? why not take a clear stand about the drone attacks?(last drone attack happened two days ago and it was on a "jirga" a tribal meeting killed 40 innocent men) i know its a bit depressing to say this but there is no doubt that with these type of "representatives" of human kind the fate of our species will definitely be catastrophic.

Enough of that what the hell is happening in Yemen police opens fire on protesters about 50 men are dead!

Well said Fizix!

As for Yemen, I don't know, that place is crazy! I've never understood Yemen... on one hand a very devout group for the most part, on the other... so chaotic. I think the government there is becoming desperate, but I'm not even sure that there's a "winner" that can emerge from that conflict. Yemen... I just don't understnad it all.

 

[DevilsAvocado]

 

[DevilsAvocado]

French air force is firing on ground targets in Libya.

And:

http://www.haaretz.com/news/international/arab-league-to-officially-request-un-impose-no-fly-zone-on-libya-1.348747

Arab League to officially request UN impose no-fly zone on Libya

Egyptian state television said the Arab League had decided to open channels of communication with a Libyan rebel council based in Benghazi. The League said the council represented the Libyan people, the channel reported.

The Arab League decided on Saturday that the "serious crimes and great violations" the Libyan government had committed against its people had stripped it of legitimacy, Secretary General Amr Moussa said.

Earlier Saturday, Moussa called for a no-fly zone over Libya in an interview with a German magazine, ahead of the group meeting in Cairo on Saturday to discuss the proposal.

It seems like Kim Jong-il is the only one left to whom Gaddafi now can turn to...

 

[nismaratwork]

Oh god I hope that picture is photoshopped...

 

[OmCheeto]

French air force is firing on ground targets in Libya.

Wow. I don't know why I thought you were kidding.

Airstrikes begin on Libya targets
French warplanes destroy four tanks used by Gaddafi forces as military action to enforce UN-ordered no-fly zone begins.
Last Modified: 19 Mar 2011 19:10 GMT

Everyone knows I don't have cable, and get all my news from PF, don't you?

 

[FizixFreak]

The french air force has actually destroyed some tanks of the Libyan army its GAME ON now for the western forces!

 

[OmCheeto]

US warship launches cruise missiles against Gaddafi targets as UK confirms that its forces take action in Libya

Maybe I shouldn't have canceled my cable.

 

[nismaratwork]

...And now the USA has launched Tomahawk missiles from naval assets... I would guess that bodes ill for SAM and AA-RADAR installations.

Ghaddafi has to be thinking of Saddam Hussein dangling at the end of a noose right now, however crazy he is.

 

[Proton Soup]

however Gaddafi goes out, I'm sure he will look fabulous

 

[DevilsAvocado]

Wow. I don't know why I thought you were kidding.

Yeah I know, it was quick once they started. As been said: 110 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomahawk_(missile)" has been fired by U.S. at 20 targets in Libya, at a cost of $US 150 millions... I guess it was worth it...

(=Libya’s AA systems are now kaputt)

I’m sure the "Mad Dog of the Middle East" is not laughing... I guess this date must worry him; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_War"

(Isn’t that 'amazing'/'weird'? )

Anyhow, I don’t like war and violence, but what to do when a nutcase is slaughtering his own people? And you must give Obama credit for; attacking the right country, wait for a UN resolution, getting as many western allies as possible + Arab countries, and letting another allied do the first multilateral strike.

This man is smart; he clearly has more brain cells than GWB...

As a European, I wish him all the luck in the hunt for the Mad Dog.

 

[nismaratwork]

however Gaddafi goes out, I'm sure he will look fabulous

Hmmm, I sincerely hope he's only identifiable by DNA.

 

[nismaratwork]

http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/africa/03/19/libya.civil.war/index.html?hpt=T1&iref=BN1

Ahhh... long range bombers destroying Ghaddafi's air assets, and armour... life is good.

 

[lisab]

Wow. I don't know why I thought you were kidding.
Everyone knows I don't have cable, and get all my news from PF, don't you?

Not only do I not have cable, I don't have a TV. So for the same of me and Om, could you folks make your posts *extremely* descriptive? Thanks!

 

[Proton Soup]

Not only do I not have cable, I don't have a TV. So for the same of me and Om, could you folks make your posts *extremely* descriptive? Thanks!

'k. when i say "going out in style", i mean