Navigating the Tensions in Ukraine: A Scientific Perspective

[fresh_42]

Fair enough - not all of them are deserving of hate because they may not support Putin's actions and are against the invasion.

Idiots are everywhere and Germany is no exception. But so far I only have heard of one event against a Russian grocery store (Graffiti or window, I don't recall). I was saying it because of Putin's declared goal to protect Russians in countries he doesn't have a say in. We have currently 263,000 Russians here. Furthermore, the number of Russians (=grew up in) with a German passport (=have German ancestry a couple of centuries ago) is even significantly higher than that.

 

[phinds]

I've heard from several mainstream sources that agree with Putin that establishing a no-fly zone essentially amounts to a declaration of war since you enforce a no-fly zone by shooting down aircraft.

That's too simplistic. You can't just shoot down aircraft, you have to destroy the ground based surface to air missiles that are protecting the air-space they are in and sometimes, near a border with Ukraine for example, those might be in a different country (Russia for example).

So, yes, a no-fly zone is tantamount to declaring war on Russia.

 

[fresh_42]

So, yes, a no-fly zone is tantamount to declaring war on Russia.

Plus it usually requires a mandate from the UN security council, and ...

 

[Bruzote]

I'm really worried that the situation in Ukraine could result in a war between the US and Russia. Any thoughts?

Some humans will always want to oppress others. It's a risk, but keeping that kind of outcome away always comes with the risk of conflict and loss. Living under Putin would be miserable. Russian kleptocrats stole so much from the citizens, it was like stealing 20 TRILLION dollars if it happened in America. Can you work hard enough day and night to pay 20 TRILLION to thieves? You want scary? Imagine being at risk of 15 years in prison because you used the word "war" to describe the war in Ukraine. So, if you are willing to think about things that make you full of fear, think about than. When you realize how awful that would be and for how many people, be *grateful* some people will stand up with ONE HUNDRED PERCENT CERTAINTY of being in combat so that you don't have to while you cower online. Be grateful. We need to fight in Ukraine, even if it means the US pulls the gloves off. Better to fight now than have our necks under a boot for the rest of our lives.

 

[Jarvis323]

Your bias is showing. The videos description says these women are pilots, not flight attendants.

I missed that in the description. The articles I read said they were flight attendants.

Mr Putin made the remarks while speaking to a group of women flight attendants at an Aeroflot training centre near Moscow.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60633482

The video appears to have been faked. When it shows the close-up of Putin, his image seems to be superimposed on a background. Plus, his hand miraculously goes through a microphone.

Why would he fake that?

I've heard from several mainstream sources that agree with Putin that establishing a no-fly zone essentially amounts to a declaration of war since you enforce a no-fly zone by shooting down aircraft. It's the reason the U.S. and other countries aren't willing to go that far lest they be drawn into the conflict.

The irony is that Putin doesn't think that invading a country to demilitarize it, and assassinate its leaders amounts to a declaration of war. This is also why he didn't say that a no fly zone would lead to war, he said it would lead to a conflict with the offending nation.

 

[StevieTNZ]

Why would he fake that?

Why would he do a lot of things he's done/ordered? The man probably suffers from delusional disorder.

 

[Keith_McClary]

The recent wars of aggression by certain Western powers are much worse in terms of civilian casualties. We should also be thinking of prosecuting those responsible.

 

[vela]

Why would he fake that?

Maybe he realized the optics of sitting at the other end of the table away from everyone else would be bad for that meeting, but he wasn't willing to actually sit near anybody.

 

[artis]

Seems like a more appropriate one would be Putin shooting the dove with an AK47

Of course, but didn't you know that the dove had a "swastika" on it's wing, it's a Nazi bird, the dove needed "denazification"...But seriously speaking I really fail to understand how some of you here think that this is all just a old man who lost his mind. Reality seems different. Putin has spent these last 20 years making and cementing an unholy marriage between Kremlin and the Russian Orthodox church (for popular support of course) , his friends in crime and billionaires while throwing everything else he has left to army to manufacture new weapons and planes etc. If anything he has been consistent in his rhetoric over the years and that rhetoric has slowly escalated, especially since 2014 with respect to Ukraine.
Make no mistake Putin is evil, also selfish, calculated and stubborn but I fail to see how he is simply mad.
And he is not alone, it may seem like that because he always "steals the show" but he has a large company of "enablers" running the hardware in the background. One would need to not just change Putin, the whole company needs to change, how do you do that? We are talking about hundreds of people in all kinds of positions.

And as much as I would love to see changes in Russia, a country that has never had real democracy or any real freedom (apart from the freedom to badmouth US and Europe...) I am realistic and the facts on the ground are that Putin still has large support in Russia and those that don't support him many are scared to speak up they rather chose to run to Finland and elsewhere as they are doing now, instead of standing up.
I fail to see how anything could change in the near future.

The only two things that to my mind could stop this war now or in near future are
1) NATO goes to war with Russia (Really not the best option...)
2) The sanctions get so bad that Putin's inner circle make him stop.
3) Some option I cannot foresee.

PS. But there are some good signs too, like more information is spreading around that Some Russian operatives are secretly working behind "Kremlin's back" to help Ukraine. The failed assassination attempts on Zelensky lately seem to indicate this.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...zelensky-assassination-attempts-b2028963.html
https://www.businessinsider.com/ukraine-russia-double-agent-foil-assassination-zelensky-claim-2022-3
https://www.newsweek.com/volodomyr-zelensky-assassination-foiled-russian-tip-off-ukraine-1683953

Or they are smart and lying in order to cause a "witch hunt" within Russian forces who knows.

 

[artis]

A Russian reporter showing whatever is left from the AN225 wreckage. She claims in Russian that Ukrainians accidentally destroyed it while shooting Russian positions but the plane was destroyed by a Russian airstrike.

This is how it looked back in it's original glory from the times of USSR, was originally made to carry the Soviet space shuttle "Buran"

Turkey has reportedly shown interest to help Ukraine rebuild the plane by using the second unfinished fuselage that had sat away in a hangar for all these years.

https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/01/sky-giant-turkey-mulls-to-complete.html

 

[artis]

This really made me laugh, hope everyone understands which animal is which country. Has some nice political undertone to it.
PS. The last ant to jump to the bunch is Zelensky

 

[hutchphd]

3) Some option I cannot foresee.

I remind all that Putin is not immortal. It is important to actively limit and mitigate the damage that he does and to eventually punish his enablers. And try not blow up the world in the process.
It is the best we can do. Oh and afterword we can try to learn lessons (again).
.

 

[fresh_42]

I remind all that Putin is not immortal. It is important to actively limit and mitigate the damage that he does and to eventually punish his enablers. And try not blow up the world in the process.
It is the best we can do. Oh and afterword we can try to learn lessons (again).
.

Good luck with that!

And may there be more of it than Elser has had!

 

[neilparker62]

Is the Russian internet still up and running? Dare I ask - what's the view from Moscow or St Petersburg ? Yekaterinburg and Volgograd especially ? Interestingly Mr Putin claims: "Present-day Ukraine was wholly created by Communist Russia".

https://tass.com/politics/1407587

I'm confused - you would have thought in that case it would have been "de-Nazified" long ago ??

 

[geordief]

Is the Russian internet still up and running?

If it is (presumably so) can we get translations and contribute in real time?

Edit:I have read that the US is considering replacing any planes that Poland would potentially donate to Ukraine

 

[fresh_42]

I'm confused - you would have thought in that case it would have been "de-Nazified" long ago ??

It is even more absurd: Putin's fanbase itself contains a fair amount of Nazis, or nationalists to use a better-defined word.

Is the Russian internet still up and running?

Yes, but without facebook, twitter, and of course the channels of western news agencies.

 

[neilparker62]

It is even more absurd: Putin's fanbase itself contains a fair amount of Nazis, or nationalists to use a better-defined word.

It's not quite clear whether Mr Putin wants to "de-communize" or "de-Nazify" Ukraine ??

 

[fresh_42]

It's not quite clear whether Mr Putin wants to "de-communize" or "de-Nazify" Ukraine ??

At least, it will be the first time a country is de-Nazified that is run by a Jew.

 

[neilparker62]

At least, it will be the first time a country is de-Nazified that is run by a Jew.

Perhaps the contradiction has not escaped Mr Putin - hence the backup line is that what we really need to do is "de-communize" Ukraine!

 

[snorkack]

I'm confused - you would have thought in that case it would have been "de-Nazified" long ago ??

Plenty of East Europeans resented both National Socialists and Communists and found Communists the greater danger. So yes, a lot of people in East Europe supported the Nazis as the lesser evil... including some in Ukraine. Which, of course, Russians are eager to blow up.

 

[phinds]

Which, of course, Russians are eager to blow up.

I'm not so sure "the Russians" are eager to blow ANYTHING up. I think this is mostly Putin.

 

[PeroK]

Plenty of East Europeans resented both National Socialists and Communists and found Communists the greater danger. So yes, a lot of people in East Europe supported the Nazis as the lesser evil... including some in Ukraine. Which, of course, Russians are eager to blow up.

This is a truly abhorrent post.

 

[snorkack]

I'm not so sure "the Russians" are eager to blow ANYTHING up. I think this is mostly Putin.

The abuse "Fascist!" for any Western minorities in Russian popular culture long predates Putin, or indeed Gorbachev. I do not have a living memory of that, but I am sure it predates Khruschchev.

 

[phinds]

The abuse "Fascist!" for any Western minorities in Russian popular culture long predates Putin, or indeed Gorbachev. I do not have a living memory of that, but I am sure it predates Khruschchev.

So, what's your point? In what way do you feel that your comment addresses my post to which it was a reply? Do you really think the average Russian gives a damn if there are fascists in Ukraine and want to bomb them? Seriously?

I think the average Russian wants what we all want --- to have a decent life, a decent job, and to care for our families.

PUTIN is the problem, not the Russian people.

 

[snorkack]

Do you really think the average Russian gives a damn if there are fascists in Ukraine and want to bomb them? Seriously?

I think the average Russian wants what we all want --- to have a decent life, a decent job, and to care for our families.

Average Russian gives a damn, but not that much. Average Russians look at Ukrainians... with mild condescending prejudice. Which is in no way inconsistent with liking them as persons, and not wanting Ukrainians to be bombed.
The problem with it is that anyone who does not agree with that condescending part can be painted as a Nazi collaborator. Which the Russian propaganda is doing. And was doing even before Putin was born, let alone reached power.

 

[PeroK]

Average Russian gives a damn, but not that much. Average Russians look at Ukrainians... with mild condescending prejudice.

What evidence do you have that the "average Russian" believes anything of what you ascribe to them?

 

[russ_watters]

Read Gary Kasparov's book "Winter is Coming" and you'll understand how the west contributed to the rise and rise of Mr Putin.

"Contributed" as in failed to stop his imperialism. I read it as more of a warning than blame. As-in: if you don't stop appeasing Putin eventually he'll invade someone you do care about.

...also maybe a bit of a plea for help.

 

[neilparker62]

So, what's your point? In what way do you feel that your comment addresses my post to which it was a reply? Do you really think the average Russian gives a damn if there are fascists in Ukraine and want to bomb them? Seriously?

I think the average Russian wants what we all want --- to have a decent life, a decent job, and to care for our families.

PUTIN is the problem, not the Russian people.

I think this is a fair assessment. I just wish Mr Putin and co would appreciate this is no more than the "average Ukrainian" wants! He can't go throwing dangerous toys on the basis of a few alleged Nazis. Or covert Leninist communists perhaps ?!

 

[snorkack]

What evidence do you have that the "average Russian" believes anything of what you ascribe to them?

1) An account pointing out how the ethnic prejudices were felt around Soviet Union. It was from a generation that was adult in Soviet times, but it is consistent with what the people talk about ethnic groups. Prejudices against Baltic people, Jews, Caucasians (which is why I dislike the English term of "Caucasian" as synonym of "White" - for us, "Black" is a synonym of "Caucasian"), Central Asians, Siberian natives... The prejudices against Ukrainians were not something the third parties noticed as universally, but their firsthand description is consistent with evidence and experience of other prejudices.
2) Much of the Ukrainian grievances make sense perfectly in the view of cycle of prejudice causing resentment, the resentment being seen as being uppity or treacherous, justifying repression etc.. Reaction to prejudice gets interpreted to confirm and amplify the prejudice.

Two half truths added one way add up to one lie. Added opposite way, they can make up a truth.

 

[PeroK]

1) An account pointing out how the ethnic prejudices were felt around Soviet Union. It was from a generation that was adult in Soviet times, but it is consistent with what the people talk about ethnic groups. Prejudices against Baltic people, Jews, Caucasians (which is why I dislike the English term of "Caucasian" as synonym of "White" - for us, "Black" is a synonym of "Caucasian"), Central Asians, Siberian natives... The prejudices against Ukrainians were not something the third parties noticed as universally, but their firsthand description is consistent with evidence and experience of other prejudices.
2) Much of the Ukrainian grievances make sense perfectly in the view of cycle of prejudice causing resentment, the resentment being seen as being uppity or treacherous, justifying repression etc.. Reaction to prejudice gets interpreted to confirm and amplify the prejudice.

Two half truths added one way add up to one lie. Added opposite way, they can make up a truth.

That's not evidence. That's your opinion.

 

[fluidistic]

If you're worried about Ukraine but for some reason(s) do not want to go to war as a volunteer (either has a medic or soldier), you can directly donate money to the Ukrainian army. This can be done with cryptocurrencies: , for now it seems they only accept a few of them, but more later.

So far, only transparent blockchain cryptocurrencies are accepted, so we know exactly what they do with the money. They've received about 254 bitcoins at the writing of this post (https://www.blockchain.com/btc/address/357a3So9CbsNfBBgFYACGvxxS6tMaDoa1P).

 

[Frabjous]

Other than Archimedes (Roman Invasion of Syracuse) and Mosely(Gallipoli), are there other famous physicists that died from war?

 

[PeroK]

Other than Archimedes (Roman Invasion of Syracuse) and Mosely(Gallipoli), are there other famous physicists that died from war?

Schwartzschild in WWI. But, given the extent of the slaughter, I'm sure there must be many more that died in that war. Perhaps most were still too young to be really famous.

 

[Keith_McClary]

This is a truly abhorrent post.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_Auxiliary_Police#Participation_in_the_Holocaust
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collaboration_in_German-occupied_Ukraine

 

[PeroK]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_Auxiliary_Police#Participation_in_the_Holocaust

Putin as avenger of the Holocaust?

Anyone who participated in these atrocities must be over 90 years old now. Why must Ukrainians of all ages be bombed? How will the cycle of violence in human society ever end if you are intent on revenge on the children and grandchildren of those who committed crimes in the past?

The world is trying to move on but is being dragged back by insane ideas that we are still fighting WWII.