Navigating the Tensions in Ukraine: A Scientific Perspective

[snorkack]

Anyone who participated in these atrocities must be over 90 years old now. Why must Ukrainians of all ages be bombed? How will the cycle of violence in human society ever end if you are intent on revenge on the children and grandchildren of those who committed crimes in the past?

The world is trying to move on but is being dragged back by insane ideas that we are still fighting WWII.

This looks like a case of violence vs. prejudice.
Look, in my country roughly 1/3 of men of military age fought on Red Army side - few as volunteers, mostly as draftees - and twice as much on the German side... many draftees and many volunteers. But they joined when there was imminent threat of Reds coming back, not to favour Nazi cause. Many fled to Finland so they could fight against Reds but under a democratic government they liked, not under a foreign rule they had good reasons to resent.

And when the children and grandchildren of the men who fought on the Nazi side, and indeed the children and grandchildren of the men who fought on the Red side are, oh, not bombed, not shot, not imprisoned, but bullied for "their people being on the wrong side", it causes resentment. Some people will resist the bullying... which just confirms the prejudice.
And some interpret the ambiguous evidence to show that their grandfathers were indeed right to fight on the Nazi side... which again confirms the prejudice.

 

[PeroK]

This looks like a case of violence vs. prejudice.
Look, in my country roughly 1/3 of men of military age fought on Red Army side - few as volunteers, mostly as draftees - and twice as much on the German side... many draftees and many volunteers. But they joined when there was imminent threat of Reds coming back, not to favour Nazi cause. Many fled to Finland so they could fight against Reds but under a democratic government they liked, not under a foreign rule they had good reasons to resent.

And when the children and grandchildren of the men who fought on the Nazi side, and indeed the children and grandchildren of the men who fought on the Red side are, oh, not bombed, not shot, not imprisoned, but bullied for "their people being on the wrong side", it causes resentment. Some people will resist the bullying... which just confirms the prejudice.
And some interpret the ambiguous evidence to show that their grandfathers were indeed right to fight on the Nazi side... which again confirms the prejudice.

In other words: "Burn their children's laughter. On to hell."

 

[neilparker62]

I think we need to look at today's world and today's people because raking over the coals is simply not taking us forward at all. Russians are cool generally, Ukrainians are cool. War between the two is complete anachronistic bs and totally unnecessary. Stop the war!

 

[snorkack]

In other words: "Burn their children's laughter. On to hell."

Precisely.
It IS possible to deescalate this kind of prejudice. But it is not easy to get the cycle to run in deescalation direction.

 

[neilparker62]

Precisely.
It IS possible to deescalate this kind of prejudice. But it is not easy to get the cycle to run in deescalation direction.

I would say it's imperative that we do just that. Whatever it takes. If we can't beat swords into ploughshares, then at least nukes into fusion reactors!

 

[Keith_McClary]

How will the cycle of violence in human society ever end if you are intent on revenge on the children and grandchildren of those who committed crimes in the past?

It doesn't help that some (even those in power, not just a fringe) use the flags, symbols and slogans of their WWII heroes and build monuments to them.

 

[BillTre]

It doesn't help that some (even those in power, not just a fringe) use the flags, symbols and slogans of their WWII heroes and build monuments to them.

This has a long history, at least going back to the end of the US civil war, when Robert E. Lee said building monuments and such would not bode well for the future.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...nts-they-keep-open-the-sores-of-war-he-wrote/
But it happened anyway.
This general approach lead to the "Lost Cause".

 

[Bcavender]

My Mother, long departed, told me once that if someone has a real problem with you, take a moment to walk a mile in their shoes to find what truly is inside their head. If you find their situation irrational, that is one set of circumstances to deal with. If you find that you wouldn't like to be in those shoes, consider the source of the problem and fix it. She was quite a wise lady and it was the second best advice I ever received. (Just make sure you are getting the truth rather than what someone else wants you to believe.)

At this point, I am having more of a hard time walking in Claus Schwabs' Shoes (and Fauci/Bill Gates as a close second).

 

[Keith_McClary]

long history, at least going back

These are much more recent, although I could not find the construction date. When did that pebbled concrete become popular? The Shukhevych statue was erected in 1973.

 

[fresh_42]

Schwartzschild in WWI. But, given the extent of the slaughter, I'm sure there must be many more that died in that war. Perhaps most were still too young to be really famous.

This is indeed true. I remember that I once visited a cemetery and found a section with graves of Russian soldiers from WW I. I wasn't aware that there had been Russians at this location in Germany at all. As I walked from grave to grave I saw their ages: 26 was old! Many came from somewhere in Siberia, most between 17 and 23 years old. I wondered whether their relatives even have been ever informed about their graves.

Too young to have a chance to become famous? Yes.

 

[PeroK]

At this point, I am having more of a hard time walking in Claus Schwabs' Shoes (and Fauci/Bill Gates as a close second).

How do Vladimir Putin's shoes feel to you?

 

[morrobay]

Plenty of East Europeans resented both National Socialists and Communists and found Communists the greater danger. So yes, a lot of people in East Europe supported the Nazis as the lesser evil... including some in Ukraine. Which, of course, Russians are eager to blow up.

The East Europeons were not the only with this mindset: The U.S. went completely overboard with the "anything goes in the name of anti communism": the support of the fascist governments in the Americas including overthrowing governments.Then Vietnam.

 

[Keith_McClary]

the support of the fascist governments in the Americas

And similar in eastern Europe, Italy, Greece, Korea, ... (government or opposition).

 

[DennisN]

Seems like a more appropriate one would be Putin shooting the dove with an AK47

That would also be appropriate.
I interpreted the picture with the dove as Putin being annoyed by peace.

 

[StevieTNZ]

Great - more time wasted in NZ's Parliament on a Bill that shouldn't even have to be passed under urgency, thereby pushing all other business back - https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/po...ce-and-waters-to-russian-aircraft-and-vessels

I wanted to see the first reading and referral to select committee of the Statutes Amendment Bill but I guess that won't happen tomorrow. I blame Putin squarely for this.

 

[neilparker62]

How do Vladimir Putin's shoes feel to you?

More to the point certainly!

 

[wrobel]

A couple days ago there was a survey in MIPT "Do you support the war". About 90% said "no"
Since that I have been thinking what must these "10%" have in their heads? I do not know.

 

[artis]

And similar in eastern Europe, Italy, Greece, Korea, ... (government or opposition).

Oh yes, I have an interesting little book of the famous Italian masonic lodge P2 actions and how they with some US covert influence organized all kinds of operations in Italy back in the 70's, 80's. You can also read about them on google. Anyway just goes to show that in strategic geopolitics the human life has little value.
This is not to excuse Kremlin politics but if we want to be fair we have to acknowledge everyone's crimes.

What @snorkack said about the WW2 and afterwards prejudice within the former USSR territory towards different ethnicities is very true indeed.
Given USSR won Germany, those who fought on the German side for whatever reason were basically cut out from society, they had no social benefits, were hard to find a job and were considered enemies of the state just as much as those that were too rich before the Soviet invasion.
And truth be told there were people who fought on the German side because they liked National socialism and shared antisemitic views.
The fact that we don't see that many of them today is simply because many share these views covertly and they only open up and act upon them when "the time is right" like it was during the Nazi invasion during WW2.
I could suggest certain books with regards to this, one I recently read about a Jewish woman who survived a local holocaust, but I don't think most here are in for changing their views that they already have formed.

Sure this does not excuse the current situation, Russia wages war with Ukraine not because Ukraine is overflowing with Nazies (there are some , but they are everywhere not just Ukraine) it does so for a geopolitical goal and to stop Ukraine from joining NATO.

 

[atyy]

A couple days ago there was a survey in MIPT "Do you support the war". About 90% said "no"
Since that I have been thinking what must these "10%" have in their heads? I do not know.

What's MIPT?

 

[Rive]

I really don't know what should I think about this.

 

[neilparker62]

What's MIPT?

https://mipt.ru/english/

 

[Oldman too]

In other words: "Burn their children's laughter. On to hell."

It really does seem like "The Gates of Delirium" doesn't it?

 

[artis]

 

[fresh_42]

Currently 1,700,000 refugees or 4% of the entire population, est. 7% of all who are allowed to flee.

Russia is demanding that refugees should flee to Belarus and then to Russia instead. If it wasn't so sad it would be funny. The degree of unreality (madness, and I am afraid in a pathological sense) on the Russian side could hardly be greater.

 

[neilparker62]

Quite horrifying - and indeed pathological. I've already mentioned the 'disconnect' between whether the aim is to "de-Nazify" or "de-communize" Ukraine. And there are even veterans of the "Great Patriotic War" being bombed and forced to evacuate their homes - unimaginable.

 

[pinball1970]

On the whole , I think we could probably do without this particular form of Russian Roulette!

It is an aside.

There is a video circulating on social media showing Ukrainians in body bags.

It is obviously fake as one of the body bags partially blows off via the wind and the “body” inside covers its self-up again.

The video was actually a climate change protest in Vienna early last month nothing to do with the war, they just overdubbed some commentary.

I was thinking is this just another poor taste face book attempt at humour? (reactions to it were not in that spirit at all)

A genuine attempt to discredit the Ukrainian cause by a pro-Russian?

An attempt to paint the Russians in a bad light by putting forward a supposed Russian fake video by a pro Ukrainian?

Who cares? People are actually dying here right? Yes but hearts, minds and opinion will be important when the fighting stops.

Especially when it comes to elections, resolutions, referendums, financial support etc.

 

[artis]

@pinball1970 At this point there is so much misinformation about this war from both sides that I personally just stopped following any of it.

Truth is the first casualty in war... as they say.

 

[neilparker62]

@pinball1970 At this point there is so much misinformation about this war from both sides that I personally just stopped following any of it.

Truth is the first casualty in war... as they say.

Yes this is true but on the whole I think some flow of information and/or exchange of perceptions (however flawed) is better than no flow!

 

[Keith_McClary]

so much misinformation about this war from both sides

CBC TV is saying there is "aerial bombardment" of Ukrainian civilians.

 

[artis]

Ukrainian men joined the army , and the women said "Me too"...

 

[Jarvis323]

@pinball1970 At this point there is so much misinformation about this war from both sides that I personally just stopped following any of it.

Truth is the first casualty in war... as they say.

Vladimir Zhoga, the leader of the Russian Sparta Battalion (of the DPR), was killed recently. He is known for torture and execution of POWs.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sparta_Battalion

Here are two headlines, one from each side. The first one says he is a neo-nazi war lord. The second one says he is a hero of Russia, who was killed by neo-nazis while protecting civilians. Russia certainly does claim a starkly different reality than the West.

Russian separatist warlord who led Neo-Nazi 'Sparta' mob is shot dead during battle in eastern Ukraine town in fresh blow to Putin's floundering invasion

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...rta-mob-shot-dead-battle-eastern-Ukraine.html

Executive Order awarding title of Hero of Russian ... - Kremlin

link to official Russian news, might not work:
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwiQ-b2V07T2AhW2JUQIHV9sBAgQFnoECA8QAQ&url=http://en.kremlin.ru/events/president/news/67920&usg=AOvVaw1rbFRQ5zB-RGZWfhUYuGr1

 

[StevieTNZ]

China's foreign minister on Monday called Russia his country's “most important strategic partner” as Beijing continues to refuse to condemn the invasion of Ukraine despite growing pressure from the US and European Union to use its influence to rein Moscow in.

Wang Yi said Chinese ties with Moscow constitute “one of the most crucial bilateral relationships in the world."

-- https://www.stuff.co.nz/world/europ...cks-relationship-with-russia-despite-invasion

 

[Keith_McClary]

Most of those "Russian vodkas" were not actually from Russia. The distillers are working on less misleading labels.

 

[Klystron]

Good luck with that!

And may there be more of it than Elser has had!

Thanks for linking to this update of "Eller's" life. Using ingenuity and clockwork mechanism knowledge to fight his war against tyranny reminds me of the early life in Germany of fellow Vietnam War veteran Dieter Dengler.

 

[hutchphd]

Most of those "Russian vodkas" were not actually from Russia. The distillers are working on less misleading labels.

My inebriation seems much better knowing that...I was trying to drink all evidence of my potential disloyalty. Successfully as it turns out.