What Exactly Is Happening In the Arab/Persian World?

[nismaratwork]

I'm not even sure what that means - didn't most of the big names on Wall Street back President Obama in the last election?

My question (to turbo that started this part of the debate) still hasn't been answered. What specifically is wrong with the largest industries in Egypt? Why do they need to restructure the operation of the Suez Canal, their banks, and their insurance industry (that services the canal)? What kind of restructuring is necessary? I also inquired about tourism - other than security the past few weeks - what is wrong with the industry?

A political change was called for and the new leadership needs to find a way to help grow the economy - to reduce unemployment. How does "restructuring" the leading industries achieve that goal? To achieve a 10% unemployment rate - they need to reduce unemployment by 23% (?) - that's about 18 million jobs -- and they want to raise wages?

That's going to require more than re-writing the constitution and ideological rhetoric. IMO - they should not jeopardize the successful business segments - or they could collapse the entire economy.

Of course you know what it means, but you disagree. Now, the Suez, I'm not sure... however I suspect that it's the cleanest thing run in Egypt given international interest and scrutiny. Beyond that, any system which allows its ruler to skim MORE than we've given over 30 years really should speak for itself. The Egyptian system as we know it now was established under Nasser, and further warped under Mubarak. I think the better question is, what IS the financial system in Egypt?

Given that there is nothing there, there... I guess you'd just call it "building", not restructuring.

 

[WhoWee]

The Egyptian system as we know it now was established under Nasser, and further warped under Mubarak. I think the better question is, what IS the financial system in Egypt? QUOTE]

Then you agree - we don't know what (if anything) is actually wrong with the operation of the Suez Canal, the banking, and the insurance industry that services the canal?

If you recall, I asked the question pages ago in this thread - whether there was any indication of what Mubarak owns in Egypt - no responses thus far. Everything I've read indicates his holdings are offshore.

 

[nismaratwork]

The Egyptian system as we know it now was established under Nasser, and further warped under Mubarak. I think the better question is, what IS the financial system in Egypt?

Then you agree - we don't know what (if anything) is actually wrong with the operation of the Suez Canal, the banking, and the insurance industry that services the canal?

If you recall, I asked the question pages ago in this thread - whether there was any indication of what Mubarak owns in Egypt - no responses thus far. Everything I've read indicates his holdings are offshore.

Yes, I'm sorry for obvious reasons I've lost track of a few things. Yes, I agree that we don't yet know what's wrong with the banking or any of the related industries... we can only see the operation of the canal.

Beyond that, AFAIK the only confirmed info about Mubarak's holdings that he can actually TAKE, is somewhere between 30-70 Billion USD. It seems the Swiss have frozen what assets they tracked of his, but he strikes me as too canny to put his eggs in one basket. If I were a pharaoh-wannabe, I'd buy art, jewels, and property... BUT... did he ever expect to leave Egypt? If he did, then it may be that Egypt is in desperate trouble, but if he really dumped it all into Swiss banks, it seems that Egypt may be in luck.

The Royal Palace, and his various spots in Sharm el-Sheikh and eslewhere would be "his", but it's not exactly something he can take with him.

 

[nismaratwork]

Just to make clear what I mean by following the Turkish model (adapted by Egyptians for Egypt), this is what I'm talking about: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kemalism

 

[WhoWee]

Yes, I'm sorry for obvious reasons I've lost track of a few things. Yes, I agree that we don't yet know what's wrong with the banking or any of the related industries... we can only see the operation of the canal.

Beyond that, AFAIK the only confirmed info about Mubarak's holdings that he can actually TAKE, is somewhere between 30-70 Billion USD. It seems the Swiss have frozen what assets they tracked of his, but he strikes me as too canny to put his eggs in one basket. If I were a pharaoh-wannabe, I'd buy art, jewels, and property... BUT... did he ever expect to leave Egypt? If he did, then it may be that Egypt is in desperate trouble, but if he really dumped it all into Swiss banks, it seems that Egypt may be in luck.

The Royal Palace, and his various spots in Sharm el-Sheikh and eslewhere would be "his", but it's not exactly something he can take with him.

It MIGHT be possible that Mubarak stayed in power as long as he did because he wasn't skimming from the legitimate industries - isn't it? It seems reasonable that the international business community invested in Egypt because it was stable.

Also, Egypt established "Free Trade Zones" long ago - to attract investment.

http://www.gafinet.org/English/Pages/FreeZones.aspx

An overview of the organizing rules (and the section on corruption in particular):
http://www.buyusa.gov/egypt/en/ccg06.html

"Corruption While U.S. investors have reported corruption by lower-level government officials, they have not identified corruption as a leading obstacle to foreign investment. Corruption in Egypt is a crime. Two agencies oversee enforcement of corruption laws in the public sector – the Administrative Control Authority (ACA) under the authority of the Cabinet of Ministers and the Illicit Gain Office under the authority of the Public Funds Prosecution of the Ministry of Interior. In the private sector, there are two types of corruption cases, commercial and civil. Commercial cases are subject to the Commercial Law and the Dispute Settlement Law. The district attorney’s office and the civil courts adjudicate civil cases. The ACA may intervene when corruption occurs in the private sector if public money and/or public interests are involved.

Giving and accepting bribes are criminal acts in Egypt. Penalties include pecuniary fines and imprisonment. Bribing foreign officials is also a crime in Egypt. High-profile corruption cases since 2002 have resulted in lengthy trials, and convictions in some instances, for several former government officials, including a former Minister of Finance, former head of the Egyptian Customs Authority, and the former Governor of Giza Province. Several businessmen and prominent bankers also have been charged (and some convicted) for alleged corruption related to non-payment of loans. Enforcement of corruption laws does not appear to be disproportional against foreigners, but evidence indicates that cases brought to court are often politically motivated, i.e., cases tend to be brought against individuals who have fallen out of favor with the government.

Egypt is a signatory to the UN Convention Against Corruption, but has not signed the OECD Convention on Combating Bribery or any other regional anti-corruption convention. Transparency International’s Corruption Perceptions Index ranked Egypt 105 out of 179 surveyed countries in its 2007 survey. In 2006, Egypt was ranked 70th out of 163 surveyed countries on perceptions of corruption.

The law provides criminal penalties for official corruption, but the government did not consistently and effectively implement the law, and impunity was a problem. Media routinely reported on confirmed cases of low-level corruption, including the fraudulent alteration of official documents, embezzlement, and bribery. The Central Agency for Auditing and Accounting (CAA) is the government’s anti-corruption body and submits biennial reports to the People’s Assembly, which are not available to the public. The CAA stations monitors at state-owned companies to report corrupt practices. Observers did not judge the CAA to be effective. "

 

[nismaratwork]

This is true WhoWee, but in reality Egypt has been massively corrupt... the very military right's and monetary structure is crooked. Granted, it's no basket case, but I fail to see how removing billions from your nation and placing it in Swiss banks is in any way beneficial.

Sure, it's not the kind of corruption that sends expereinced firms running, but for the PEOPLE of Egypt... the ones who rose up... it's everything. If Mubarak has 30 Billion... in a country of 80 million... that alone is horrendous.

 

[WhoWee]

This is true WhoWee, but in reality Egypt has been massively corrupt... the very military right's and monetary structure is crooked. Granted, it's no basket case, but I fail to see how removing billions from your nation and placing it in Swiss banks is in any way beneficial.

Sure, it's not the kind of corruption that sends expereinced firms running, but for the PEOPLE of Egypt... the ones who rose up... it's everything. If Mubarak has 30 Billion... in a country of 80 million... that alone is horrendous.

If the new leaders want to chase Mubarak around the globe - have at it. I just don't know what part of the economy needs "restructured" - or what that means?

Instead of re-hashing - scroll back to about post 642 and read down to 652.

 

[Al68]

Our financial institutions being corrupted by government imposed policies directly caused the problems?

Yes, and has been discussed extensively in other threads.

I sure hope the Egyptians are better at sifting out the "you will be better off if no one is in charge" wall street mumbo jumbo than we are.

Anti-authoritarianism is "Wall Street mumbo jumbo" now? I'm pretty sure John Locke and Adam Smith didn't call it that in their writings. In fact, "no one in charge" of the economy used to be called liberalism (now called classical liberalism).

I hope the Egyptians are better than we are at seeing through the authoritarian propaganda that tries to blame economic freedom for the problems caused by government actions. Not much chance of that is there?

 

[OmCheeto]

re bolded: I think everyone here can agree on THAT!

Apparently not. I believe there are still people trying to make the poor people feel sorry for the rich people. And they are succeeding.

I was sitting with a couple of minimum wage, part time employees a few weeks ago and I mentioned the fact that a young lady in Texas had just inherited $9 billion from her dad and that she didn't have to pay a penny in taxes. One of them shouted; "Double Taxation!"

I didn't bother arguing with him as he continued on a long tea partyish tirade. I probably should have mentioned that no taxes had ever been paid on that wealth, as it was the value of the company that her father owned. And people don't pay taxes on wealth. But the young lady had a very nice smile and I decided it was ok that she could keep it all instead of just $4.5 billion. That probably would have devastated her.

But getting back to Egypt, I find it interesting that the wealth disparity in Egypt is less than it is in the US.

http://www.nationsencyclopedia.com/economies/Africa/Egypt-POVERTY-AND-WEALTH.html"
The extremes are reflected in the country's distribution of income: in 1996, the wealthiest 20 percent of Egyptians controlled 39 percent of the country's wealth, while the poorest 20 percent controlled only 9.8 percent of wealth.

Compared to the US where the top 20% controls 85% of the wealth, while the poorest 20% control 0.1% of the wealth. http://sociology.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/power/wealth.html"

Unfortunately, social services for the poor in Egypt have been cut over the last 20 years, making life even more miserable, until, well, the kids got fed up with eating http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2008/01/080130-AP-haiti-eatin.html", and had a revolution.

Ya. I know. The Haitians are eating dirt pies. While $13 trillion sits snug in the Caymans just 500 miles away. What a strange planet we live on.

 

[WhoWee]

Apparently not. I believe there are still people trying to make the poor people feel sorry for the rich people. And they are succeeding.

I was sitting with a couple of minimum wage, part time employees a few weeks ago and I mentioned the fact that a young lady in Texas had just inherited $9 billion from her dad and that she didn't have to pay a penny in taxes. One of them shouted; "Double Taxation!"

I didn't bother arguing with him as he continued on a long tea partyish tirade. I probably should have mentioned that no taxes had ever been paid on that wealth, as it was the value of the company that her father owned. And people don't pay taxes on wealth. But the young lady had a very nice smile and I decided it was ok that she could keep it all instead of just $4.5 billion. That probably would have devastated her.

But getting back to Egypt, I find it interesting that the wealth disparity in Egypt is less than it is in the US.



Compared to the US where the top 20% controls 85% of the wealth, while the poorest 20% control 0.1% of the wealth. http://sociology.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/power/wealth.html"

Unfortunately, social services for the poor in Egypt have been cut over the last 20 years, making life even more miserable, until, well, the kids got fed up with eating http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2008/01/080130-AP-haiti-eatin.html", and had a revolution.

Ya. I know. The Haitians are eating dirt pies. While $13 trillion sits snug in the Caymans just 500 miles away. What a strange planet we live on.

Are you sure about the poorest 20% and their control of the wealth? The poorest are living off the wealth of the country - aren't they?

As for the $9 Billion story and your claim that "no taxes had ever been paid on that wealth, as it was the value of the company that her father owned" - did you pull all of her father's personal and business tax returns over the course of his lifetime?

Last, if the Haitian Government took our $1 Billion and bought the people "dirt pies" - they should be executed - is that what happened - or are you discounting our MOST GENEROUS support for them? At what point do we expect them to help themselves?

 

[nismaratwork]

If the new leaders want to chase Mubarak around the globe - have at it. I just don't know what part of the economy needs "restructured" - or what that means?

Instead of re-hashing - scroll back to about post 642 and read down to 652.

Think of it this way... for one, tourism is going to take time to recover... and that's IF and when things settle down. There's going to be a lot of tourism from the Arab world now, but that's not enough to fill that economic gap. For me, the biggest issue Egypt is going to need to genuinely RESTRUCTURE, is the hole left, shaped like tourist's bucks.

Then you have the military, which is treated out of all proportion to the general population, or was under Mubarak. If the military is ever going to cede powers to a civilian authority, that can't remain, but on the other hand, you can't and shouldn't treat them poorly either.

Then... you have 1 out every 80 Egyptians who worked for the 'Interior Ministry' in its various forms.. thugs, riot police, media, and more. They are now essentially both unemployed, and potentially dangerous.

When you consider that together, that ECONOMPASSES what Egyptian banking does, what it allowed, and the very nature of what passed for book-keeping in Egypt.

 

[WhoWee]

Think of it this way... for one, tourism is going to take time to recover... and that's IF and when things settle down. There's going to be a lot of tourism from the Arab world now, but that's not enough to fill that economic gap. For me, the biggest issue Egypt is going to need to genuinely RESTRUCTURE, is the hole left, shaped like tourist's bucks.

Then you have the military, which is treated out of all proportion to the general population, or was under Mubarak. If the military is ever going to cede powers to a civilian authority, that can't remain, but on the other hand, you can't and shouldn't treat them poorly either.

Then... you have 1 out every 80 Egyptians who worked for the 'Interior Ministry' in its various forms.. thugs, riot police, media, and more. They are now essentially both unemployed, and potentially dangerous.

When you consider that together, that ECONOMPASSES what Egyptian banking does, what it allowed, and the very nature of what passed for book-keeping in Egypt.

I'm not certain about the job description of "thug", but why would riot police and media no longer be employed?

I'm also not certain what this means..."ECONOMPASSES what Egyptian banking does" - perhaps you might want to elaborate a bit?


On another note - what do you make of the union strikes in Egypt today?

 

[DevilsAvocado]

I'm not certain about the job description of "thug"

Is this a joke??

 

[DevilsAvocado]

"Only speak if you can improve the silence."

Brilliant!

 

[nismaratwork]

I'm not certain about the job description of "thug", but why would riot police and media no longer be employed?

I'm also not certain what this means..."ECONOMPASSES what Egyptian banking does" - perhaps you might want to elaborate a bit?


On another note - what do you make of the union strikes in Egypt today?

Ah, "Thug", is the Egyptian term for the non-uniformed police, and the security services in general. Remember, the police in Egypt are NOT police as we think of them in the west... you don't go to them unless you're in the top %'s, connected, or really desperate. These people had vast privelage, personal power, and relatively speaking, money. Now, they're just hated, along with the Republican Guard 50K strong, which is separate from the Military proper.

Now, the police are currently protesting (again), because of, "low pay" and a "lack of appreciation". Consider that these are the same people who killed unarmed protestors, and you'll see why that institution is doomed. The media... actually state-run, a part of the Information Ministry that is loathed right up there with the security services.

Now... consider how much fun it will be recruiting new police, training them, and deploying them to replaced the gaps left by corrupt officials, regime lickspittles, and people who killed a lot of their coutnrymen... and lost. The media, that could be a growth industry, but how to strike the balance between military control during this period of change, and not using Mubarak's or Nasser's tactics?

 

[DevilsAvocado]

Ah, "Thug", is the Egyptian term for the non-uniformed police, and the security services in general. Remember, the police in Egypt are NOT police as we think of them in the west...

Correct, and my personal verdict would be – "Doctor Mengele’s"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraordinary_rendition_by_the_United_States#Sweden"

Sweden

Extraordinary rendition provoked a diplomatic crisis between the United States and Sweden in 2006 when Swedish authorities put a stop to CIA rendition flights.[137] In December 2001 Swedish police detained Ahmed Agiza and Muhammad al-Zery, two Egyptians who had been seeking asylum in Sweden. The police took them to Bromma airport in Stockholm, and then stood aside as masked alleged CIA operatives cut their clothes from their bodies, inserted drugged suppositories in their anuses, and dressed them in diapers and overalls, handcuffed and chained them and put them on an executive jet with American registration N379P. They were flown to Egypt, where they were imprisoned, beaten, and tortured according to an extensive investigate reports by Swedish programme "Kalla fakta".[138] A Swedish Parliamentary investigator concluded that the degrading and inhuman treatment of the two prisoners violated Swedish law.[139]

In 2006 the United Nations found Sweden had violated an international torture ban in its complicity in the CIA's transfer of l-Zari to Egypt.[140] Sweden imposed strict rules on rendition flights, but Swedish Military Intelligence posing as airport personnel who boarded one of two subsequent extraordinary rendition flights in 2006 during a stopover at Stockholm’s Arlanda International Airport found the Swedish restrictions were being ignored.[137] Sweden now altogether prohibits extraordinary rendition flights.[137] In 2008 the Swedish government awarded AL Zery 500,000 dollars in damages for the abuse he received in Sweden and the subsequent torture in Egypt.[137]

 

[WhoWee]

Ah, "Thug", is the Egyptian term for the non-uniformed police, and the security services in general. Remember, the police in Egypt are NOT police as we think of them in the west... you don't go to them unless you're in the top %'s, connected, or really desperate. These people had vast privelage, personal power, and relatively speaking, money. Now, they're just hated, along with the Republican Guard 50K strong, which is separate from the Military proper.

Now, the police are currently protesting (again), because of, "low pay" and a "lack of appreciation". Consider that these are the same people who killed unarmed protestors, and you'll see why that institution is doomed. The media... actually state-run, a part of the Information Ministry that is loathed right up there with the security services.

Now... consider how much fun it will be recruiting new police, training them, and deploying them to replaced the gaps left by corrupt officials, regime lickspittles, and people who killed a lot of their coutnrymen... and lost. The media, that could be a growth industry, but how to strike the balance between military control during this period of change, and not using Mubarak's or Nasser's tactics?

The situation you've described sounds VERy much like the conditions in Iraq when US forces took Baghdad. Opinions vary (of course), but one school of thought was that it was a mistake not to retain the standing army and security forces - and re-train them. I don't know if this is realistic in Cairo or not? But it would make sense not to anger then put 50,000 or more armed "thugs" on the street - wouldn't it?

 

[WhoWee]

Correct, and my personal verdict would be – "Doctor Mengele’s"

I don't foresee any war crimes trials - just efforts to anger these people and put them on the streets looking for work.

 

[DevilsAvocado]

But it would make sense not to anger then put 50,000 or more armed "thugs" on the street - wouldn't it?

The correct number is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ministry_of_Interior_(Egypt)" .

 

[nismaratwork]

The situation you've described sounds VERY much like the conditions in Iraq when US forces took Baghdad. Opinions vary (of course), but one school of thought was that it was a mistake not to retain the standing army and security forces - and re-train them. I don't know if this is realistic in Cairo or not? But it would make sense not to anger then put 50,000 or more armed "thugs" on the street - wouldn't it?

Very true, and this is part of the reason that even though I will freely admit that I tend toward DA's way of thinking, the USA cannot interfere much here.


Remember, in Iraq the Baathists were hated by SOME... OK, many. In Egypt the equivalent doesn't exist. Remember, the last time the Army had to get involved in Egyptian civilian life was the last time the POLICE protested rioted in the 80's (1985 I think). In Egypt, the police have NEVER been liked, loved, or even tolerated much except as a result of terror.

In the end, our thinking on this doesn't matter, because if the Egyptians see their old regime being recycled into the new one too much, they're going to be very displeased. If it were my choice, I'd take that lesson from Iraq, but also realize that Egypt is a VERY different country, with a different history.

I'd just add, certainly there's bleed-over into the "traffic cop" types in terms of hatred, but remember that MOST of the police in Egypt are at least perceived to be instrument used to abduct and, as DA points out, torture their own citizens. The outrage Egyptians feel at this is not at all unlike the outrage I think Americans feel when there is confirmed police brutality. We're outraged that part of our community whom we cede a measure of authority to is abusing it horribly.

So, for me... I'd have a VERY public series of trials for any police who can be proven, in a REAL court, to have shot peaceful protesters. Then you make another show of changing uniforms and genuine training efforts, and skim only those who would normally "fail" the process anyway.

Keep in mind, what DA is putting out there is clearly the tip of the iceberg, and relatively RECENT. We're talking about the rage of at least 2 generations, and a sense that, "hey, when they let criminals loose and left us alone, we protected ourselves."

Another thought is that you pick the BEST of the current branches of the police (dissolving Thugs/Security Ministry), and yes... probably a few 'Werner Von Brauns' too, because you made the point: we need them. With that, and the massive number of unemployed and underemployed Egyptians, you could have a new police force based on a new structure, but retaining skills and craft of the the veterans.

I'd add, the military in Egypt would be in a position to partner with the USA to train police as well.

DA: I hear you buddy, and it's ugly... the acts of people who are more afraid than they are wise or patriotic. We have to remember that bad as that is, chaos for 80 million IS worse. Some balance needs to be struck, even in a "civilized" nation when dealing with that very small percentage of the population that is bright, motivated, and is truly dangerous.

 

[nismaratwork]

The correct number is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ministry_of_Interior_(Egypt)" .

Correct, 50,000 is just the Republican Guard which is basicaly Mubarak's private army.

 

[WhoWee]

The correct number is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ministry_of_Interior_(Egypt)" .

Ok - I'll bite - are you in agreement with Nismar's definition and saying 325,000 "thugs" are going to be fired and put into the street?

Isn't that a larger number than the actual protestors? Do you think a new group of 325,000 people moving to the streets might be a problem?

 

[DevilsAvocado]

I'm not even sure what that means - didn't most of the big names on Wall Street back President Obama in the last election?

As a foreigner it’s risky to have any opinion on U.S. 'internal affairs', but... Obama can hardly be regarded a 'hero' on Wall Street, can he? He’s the man behind the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wall_Street_reform" ...

I’m pretty sure that the analysts on Wall Street had a good knowledge on "who’s who"...

My guess is that they knew that what the alternative meant – i.e. one heartbeat from this:

Squint-eyed?

And this forecast was not prosperous for the economy...

 

[WhoWee]

As a foreigner it’s risky to have any opinion on U.S. 'internal affairs', but... Obama can hardly be regarded a 'hero' on Wall Street, can he? He’s the man behind the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wall_Street_reform" ...

I’m pretty sure that the analysts on Wall Street had a good knowledge on "who’s who"...

My guess is that they knew that what the alternative meant – i.e. one heartbeat from this:

Squint-eyed?

And this forecast was not prosperous for the economy...

As much as I'd LOVE to go off topic on this one - let's get back to the "thugs". Prior to this discussion, I found it very strange the unions were on strike today in Egypt. Are the 325,000+ Government workers, described herein as "thugs", unionized?

 

[DevilsAvocado]

As much as I'd LOVE to go off topic on this one - let's get back to the "thugs".

Cool man. I made my point (1-0)!

Are the 325,000+ Government workers, described herein as "thugs", unionized?

Don’t know... maybe Nismar...

 

[DevilsAvocado]

Latest news: There are (big?) demonstrations in Tehran (Iran) in support of the Egypt revolution.

 

[Evo]

WhoWee, the Egyptian name for the plain clothes police really translates as "thug". It was discussed by a CNN news reporter in a news broadcast.

 

[DevilsAvocado]

Thanks Evo.

 

[WhoWee]

WhoWee, the Egyptian name for the plain clothes police really translates as "thug". It was discussed by a CNN news reporter in a news broadcast.

Ok - no problem - but please read post 681 - I'm just trying to make sure we use the word consistently in our discussion - nothing else.

 

[nismaratwork]

As a foreigner it’s risky to have any opinion on U.S. 'internal affairs', but... Obama can hardly be regarded a 'hero' on Wall Street, can he? He’s the man behind the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wall_Street_reform" ...

I’m pretty sure that the analysts on Wall Street had a good knowledge on "who’s who"...

My guess is that they knew that what the alternative meant – i.e. one heartbeat from this:

Squint-eyed?

And this forecast was not prosperous for the economy...

Wow... I wish she'd fire that thing, because the way she's holding it she'd have been lucky to walk away with a separated shoulder. Yes... I wish that kind of self-inflicted harm on idiots of her brand.

I'd just add... is anyone else DEEPLY turned-off by the "looking down the barrel" angle? I for one, NEVER like to be looking down the barrel of a gun, and it's part of my "gun safety" self enough to make me cringe at photos like this.

Evo: Yup, occasionally I actually know what I'm talking about.

WhoWee: They're organized, but not unionized. At this point the flat-out Thugs are mostly in hiding it seems... for obvious reasons. The lower ranks of the uniformed police service aren't as loathed, but they're on strike! Ach, mein noggin!

 

[DevilsAvocado]

Ok - no problem - but please read post 681 - I'm just trying to make sure we use the word consistently in our discussion - nothing else.

And please don’t miss https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=3111006&postcount=168".

P.S. The name of the reporter is CNN's Ben Wedeman.

 

[DevilsAvocado]

DA: I hear you buddy, and it's ugly... the acts of people who are more afraid than they are wise or patriotic. We have to remember that bad as that is, chaos for 80 million IS worse. Some balance needs to be struck, even in a "civilized" nation when dealing with that very small percentage of the population that is bright, motivated, and is truly dangerous.

True. This 'delicate situation' has to be handled very carefully...

I don’t believe in "genetically" bad or good people. Sure, in any crowd there’s always one or two psychopaths – but people in general are often "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment" ". If possible, maybe the wisest thing to do is to identify the psychopaths and the 'worst' thug leadership – and remove them from service.

But this is a risky business; they are numerous, and 'equipped' to create a 'great mess' if things go wrong...

 

[DevilsAvocado]

Ok - I'll bite - are you in agreement with Nismar's definition and saying 325,000 "thugs" are going to be fired and put into the street?

Isn't that a larger number than the actual protestors? Do you think a new group of 325,000 people moving to the streets might be a problem?

See previous post.

 

[DevilsAvocado]

Wow... I wish she'd fire that thing, because the way she's holding it she'd have been lucky to walk away with a separated shoulder. Yes... I wish that kind of self-inflicted harm on idiots of her brand.

haha haha

 

[nismaratwork]

True. This 'delicate situation' has to be handled very carefully...

I don’t believe in "genetically" bad or good people. Sure, in any crowd there’s always one or two psychopaths – but people in general are often "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment" ". If possible, maybe the wisest thing to do is to identify the psychopaths and the 'worst' thug leadership – and remove them from service.

But this is a risky business; they are numerous, and 'equipped' to create a 'great mess' if things go wrong...

True, and often it's the psychopaths who can pass, and the victims of circumstance who aren't clever or hiding. I think that's why the best thing is just to rely on existing norms: basic psychological screening, and then training. As you say however, we really don't know what the internal "thug" structure is... and boy we do NOT want them seeing no way out. This has to be done quickly, with a maximum transparancy and skill, but also very tightly controlled or we risk serious blowback (see bin Laden!).