What Exactly Is Happening In the Arab/Persian World?

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In summary, the protests in Egypt are continuing and there are reports of violence and fires. The situation is not looking good for the government.
  • #946
nismaratwork said:
Agreed... besides, who would we talk to, or deal with? OR SUPPORT? I'm not sure there is a "good guy" here... just Ghaddafi and everyone else. We're still talking about a really REALLY horrific track record, beyond Ghaddafi.

Anyway... if they can truly get airstrikes in Benghazi... it's civil war. It's madness to interfere in a civil war.

OK sorry if this is a silly question, I've not been following Libya closely this weekend. But, who are the sides in the war? Ghaddafi on one side, and who is the other? Is there an organized opposition? I can only guess Ghaddafi would have completely suppressed them inside Libya (brutally, no doubt). Are there large numbers of exiles willing to return to fight, or...?
 
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  • #947
lisab said:
OK sorry if this is a silly question, I've not been following Libya closely this weekend. But, who are the sides in the war? Ghaddafi on one side, and who is the other? Is there an organized opposition? I can only guess Ghaddafi would have completely suppressed them inside Libya (brutally, no doubt). Are there large numbers of exiles willing to return to fight, or...?

I think there are two powerful tribes and rest are just unorganized protesters. I have not seen any claim that the protesters are well organized.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12523669
In another blow to Col Gaddafi's rule, two tribes - including Libya's largest tribe, the Warfla - have backed the protesters.

More background on those tribes:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12528996

However, most of the information coming out of Libya is unreliable at best.
 
  • #948
lisab said:
OK sorry if this is a silly question, I've not been following Libya closely this weekend. But, who are the sides in the war? Ghaddafi on one side, and who is the other? Is there an organized opposition? I can only guess Ghaddafi would have completely suppressed them inside Libya (brutally, no doubt). Are there large numbers of exiles willing to return to fight, or...?

It's not a silly question at all, in fact it's central to this issue.

Ghaddafi united a number of tribes with showmanship, terror, and more. This is factionalized, along clan/tribal lines... which is on one hand why Benghazi is now "free". On the other hand, it's why Ghaddafi is happy to BOMB them... they're not "his people" from his view, once they defect from his "coalition".

He isn't "insane"... he's a true sociopath... a human shark. He seems happy to destroy his country before letting it go.

Now... when that happens, what will that say to Morrocco? Algeria? Egypt? Will it engrage them? Terriffy them? Send them into the arms of more autocracy, and undue their sacrifices? Worst... will there be more Somalias and Afhanistans?

At what point are sacking the library of Alexandria on a grand scale?... and what is Pakistan thinking right now...
 
  • #949
rootX said:
I think there are two powerful tribes and rest are just unorganized protesters. I have not seen any claim that the protesters are well organized.



More background about those tribes:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12528996

However, Most of the information coming out of Libya is unreliable at best.

Apparantly 3 "major" tribes renounced Moamar, but that doesn't make them good for the people. Of course, given the sub-saharan mercenaries...


You're right, this has to stop, but only decisive action can do that... and who has the right or ability, AND the will? Italy and France are clear: sell to them, buy from them, kill them or ignore them when they get out of hand (see Algeria).

I do not see a good ending for Libya, and I have no CLUE what that means for the rest of the arab world... especially Iran.
 
  • #950
forget NATO. if anyone is to go, let the Brits go in. they were the ones that sold an airline bomber (of their own people) back to Libya in exchange for oil.
 
  • #951
Proton Soup said:
forget NATO. if anyone is to go, let the Brits go in. they were the ones that sold an airline bomber (of their own people) back to Libya in exchange for oil.

There is THAT...


At this point, I think the only thing is hope, and if you're the type, prayer. This is beyond prediction in terms of eventual outcome; all that's certain is people are dying.


Did you hear that woman holding her phone out to the streets?... that is a LOT of gunfire, and most of what I heard was in bursts or controlled automatic (correct me if I'm wrong anyone). I think Libya has passed a point of no returm...

...charred bodies displayed, defections, and the desire to see it all burn rather than cede waht Qadaffi sees as HIS. Like a child, he's going to destroy what he can't have... he might not be able to bomb it, but he can spoil it.

I suppose every generation needs a reminder that we (whoever that is), are not the good guys. The weapons we sold them, with money from oil we bought (we being EU/USA/Eastern EU) are now in the hands of anyone who can grab them. If ever there was a time for shameful reflection, it's now.
 
  • #952
What's happened in Iran? Has that been squelched?
 
  • #953
Evo said:
What's happened in Iran? Has that been squelched?

AFAIK their Basij militia is handling it... as long as their security forces are up to the task, Iran is going to feel relatively secure. I think the people of Iran realize that the next airstrikes could be on their turf.

Ghaddafi is not the only psychopath in charge, but he is truly a psychopath... and his son...

this is all so much like Saddam...
 
  • #956
mugaliens said:
http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/africa/02/21/libya.protest.east/index.html?hpt=T1", they're organized well enough.

From your article:
There appeared to be no single, unifying figure in charge of the revolt. People of all ages and tribal affiliations seemed to be taking part. One man told CNN that when government forces began using live ammunition against the protesters, it turned the whole community against them.

They have a common enemy for now which make things easy but they don't seem to be well organized (def: Functioning within a formal structure, as in the coordination and direction of activities).

Opposition groups formed "popular committees" to maintain some sort of order after pushing out government forces in a spreading revolt against longtime strongman Moammar Gadhafi, who has led the north African country since 1969.
You might argue that above indicates that there is some order. However, it solely depends on the number of opposition groups or "popular committees" and their objectives. Ousting Gaddafi is the first thing but who will direct the country once Gaddafi is overthrown?
 
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  • #957
rootX said:
Ousting Gaddafi is the first thing but who will direct the country once Gaddafi is overthrown?

I am pretty sure there is some candidates in Lybia who can lead a country.

Maybe Lybia and Tunisia might join and form 1 country ? Who knows.

The interesting thing to see is how the United States has lost all powers in the regions. The power balance is slowly shifting.
 
  • #958
Evo said:
What's happened in Iran? Has that been squelched?

Everything's fine. Iranians everywhere are happy. No more riots.

http://english.farsnews.com/newstext.php?nn=8912011156"
TEHRAN (FNA)- Reports from across the Iranian capital said despite the several-day-long ploy and intensive media provocations by the West, the Opposition call for riots and unrests in Tehran failed to attract supporters and calm and everyday life prevailed in the Iranian capital as usual.
:rolleyes:

But then again:
..in Iran where all but state-approved reporters are banned
http://dailynewspulse.com/iran-government-to-set-firmer-restrictions-on-journalists/226221/"

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2011/02/2011220125132363934.html"
21 Feb 2011
Security forces clashed with anti-government protesters, many of whom marched in silence to avoid violent crackdowns.

...

One said that Tehran seemed to have "been turned into a military fort" and added that he was able to use his mobile phone to contact friends from time to time, "but only when not in danger of being caught."

<A video from Iran Reporter, purportedly from Sunday, shows a man being forced into a security van>

He said that while he saw some instances of people being arrested or beaten with batons that, "It seems that the security forces were given specific orders not to engage with the demonstrators unless they start shouting slogans."

People seemed to prefer demonstrating in silence in order to reduce the level of tension and violence," he wrote, "But there were also slogans ... but people rarely talked - it was dangerous to talk."

Hmmm... looks like Iran's state run media was right. It was all quiet.

Unfortunately, I can find no reference to any foreign journalists in Iran. With the possible exception of all of those who have been arrested.
 
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  • #959
nismaratwork said:
... and what is Pakistan thinking right now...
Haven't you heard?

http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/raymond-davis-had-taliban-links-pak-media-87066

Islamabad: American official Raymond Davis, arrested for double murder, had "close links" with Taliban and was "instrumental" in recruiting youths for it, the Pakistani media claimed today, close on the heels of reports in the US that he was a CIA agent tracking movements of terror groups like the LeT.
...
The report claimed Davis was "said to be working on a plan to give credence to the American notion that Pakistan's nuclear weapons are not safe."

"For this purpose, he was setting up a group of the Taliban which would do his bidding," it said.

Davis' job was to trace the links of the Taliban and al-Qaeda in different parts of Pakistan but instead investigators found that he had developed "close links" with the Taliban, the report said quoting a source.
 
  • #960
CheckMate said:
I am pretty sure there is some candidates in Lybia who can lead a country.

Maybe Lybia and Tunisia might join and form 1 country ? Who knows.

The interesting thing to see is how the United States has lost all powers in the regions. The power balance is slowly shifting.

Lost power? (my bold)

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/04/us/politics/04obama.text.html

"Just as Muslims do not fit a crude stereotype, America is not the crude stereotype of a self-interested empire. The United States has been one of the greatest sources of progress that the world has ever known. We were born out of revolution against an empire. We were founded upon the ideal that all are created equal, and we have shed blood and struggled for centuries to give meaning to those words – within our borders, and around the world. We are shaped by every culture, drawn from every end of the Earth, and dedicated to a simple concept: E pluribus unum: "Out of many, one."

Much has been made of the fact that an African-American with the name Barack Hussein Obama could be elected President. But my personal story is not so unique. The dream of opportunity for all people has not come true for everyone in America, but its promise exists for all who come to our shores – that includes nearly seven million American Muslims in our country today who enjoy incomes and education that are higher than average.

Moreover, freedom in America is indivisible from the freedom to practice one's religion. That is why there is a mosque in every state of our union, and over 1,200 mosques within our borders. That is why the U.S. government has gone to court to protect the right of women and girls to wear the hijab, and to punish those who would deny it.

So let there be no doubt: Islam is a part of America. And I believe that America holds within her the truth that regardless of race, religion, or station in life, all of us share common aspirations – to live in peace and security; to get an education and to work with dignity; to love our families, our communities, and our God. These things we share. This is the hope of all humanity.

Of course, recognizing our common humanity is only the beginning of our task. Words alone cannot meet the needs of our people. These needs will be met only if we act boldly in the years ahead; and if we understand that the challenges we face are shared, and our failure to meet them will hurt us all.

For we have learned from recent experience that when a financial system weakens in one country, prosperity is hurt everywhere. When a new flu infects one human being, all are at risk. When one nation pursues a nuclear weapon, the risk of nuclear attack rises for all nations. When violent extremists operate in one stretch of mountains, people are endangered across an ocean. And when innocents in Bosnia and Darfur are slaughtered, that is a stain on our collective conscience. That is what it means to share this world in the 21st century. That is the responsibility we have to one another as human beings.

This is a difficult responsibility to embrace. For human history has often been a record of nations and tribes subjugating one another to serve their own interests. Yet in this new age, such attitudes are self-defeating. Given our interdependence, any world order that elevates one nation or group of people over another will inevitably fail. So whatever we think of the past, we must not be prisoners of it. Our problems must be dealt with through partnership; progress must be shared."

Out of the ashes...?
 
  • #961
Gaddafi is soon speaking on state television. Will we have an even greater "umbrella comedy" this time??

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=weY5Lht2UAI
 
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  • #962
WhoWee said:
Out of the ashes...?

I’m not sure I follow your reasoning...? Are you saying that all that is happening in the Arab World is due to the powers of President Obama, solely??
 
  • #963
DevilsAvocado said:
I’m not sure I follow your reasoning...? Are you saying that all that is happening in the Arab World is due to the powers of President Obama, solely??

I think words have meaning (did you read his words?) - actions have consequences -and leader's lead. If President Obama remains silent on the sidelines NOW - along with the UN and the rest of the world - a leader will eventually emerge - out of the ashes.
 
  • #964
DevilsAvocado said:
I’m not sure I follow your reasoning...? Are you saying that all that is happening in the Arab World is due to the powers of President Obama, solely??
WhoWee was citing Obama's comments on the current situation.

Out of the ashes - meaning the US is waiting for the folks in various nations to sort out their situation, and ostensibly the US will work with these folks to improve their situation through good relations and trade.
 
  • #965
WhoWee said:
I think words have meaning (did you read his words?) - actions have consequences -and leader's lead. If President Obama remains silent on the sidelines NOW - along with the UN and the rest of the world - a leader will eventually emerge - out of the ashes.
Make that plural - leaders will emerge. And hopefully a set of leaders who are committed to democracy rather than corrupt oligarchies or dictatorships.
 
  • #966
Astronuc said:
WhoWee was citing Obama's comments on the current situation.
Actually, that was Obama's speech in Cairo, from way back in early 2009. Like DA, I'm not following WhoWee's argument either.

If Obama is silent, a leader will emerge. (Is this a good thing or a bad thing?) And what happens if he is not silent?
 
  • #967
WhoWee said:
I think words have meaning

But my friend, this is not consequent with your standing on Sarah Palin’s words and her guilt for the shooting in AZ, right? So what is it – words do have a meaning, or they do not?

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With this 'logic' in the AZ thread I can just dismiss your view with: "Oh no! Obama is just having fun!"

WhoWee said:
(did you read his words?)

Yes, I even watched the video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6BlqLwCKkeY

I think it’s a great speech, and so do several high rank politicians in Israel. What would you like him to say? "We are working hard for 'our friends' to have another 30-40 years of brutal suppression of their citizens." ?:bugeye:?

WhoWee said:
President Obama remains silent on the sidelines NOW

Any advice? What should he say? What should he do?

I also think that words do have a meaning, but to put all the blame on Obama is a little naive. Don’t you think?
 
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  • #968
Astronuc said:
WhoWee was citing Obama's comments on the current situation.

As Gokul said, citing was from Obama’s Speech in Cairo on June 4, 2009.

(I think our friend WhoWee is taking any chance possible throwing dirt on Obama. I’m not religious, but I thank GOD that GWB, or worse Mrs. Palin is not at the rudder right now = "CALL IN THE CAVALRY!" :wink:)
 
  • #969
Gaddafi speaking on state television.

EDIT:
Is he drunk??!? :bugeye: :bugeye: :bugeye: :bugeye: :bugeye:
 
  • #970
DevilsAvocado said:
As Gokul said, citing was from Obama’s Speech in Cairo on June 4, 2009.

(I think our friend WhoWee is taking any chance possible throwing dirt on Obama. I’m not religious, but I thank GOD that GWB, or worse Mrs. Palin is not at the rudder right now = "CALL IN THE CAVALRY!" :wink:)
I don't see WhoWee's comment should be taken that way. In fact, I see a connection between Obama's statements then, and what the young folks are doing now. These protests have been building for some time.

There was an interesting statement last week about the fact that the US cannot be seen (overtly) as driving any of the revolutions. The various groups in the various countries must exercise their self-determination.

One arab journalist indicated that he was impressed with the young folk and their initiative while feeling out of synch because his generation didn't see it coming. The young folk have by-passed the media and traditional institutions.

Please be careful about personalizing statements.
 
  • #971
Astronuc said:
I don't see WhoWee's comment should be taken that way.

Okay, let WhoWee explain exactly what he mean.
 
  • #972
DevilsAvocado said:
Gaddafi speaking on state television.

EDIT:
Is he drunk??!? :bugeye: :bugeye: :bugeye: :bugeye: :bugeye:

Respectfully, I do not think Muslims drink.
He did look tho so scared as his toenails might fly off!
 
  • #973
DevilsAvocado said:
Gaddafi speaking on state television.

EDIT:
Is he drunk??!? :bugeye: :bugeye: :bugeye: :bugeye: :bugeye:

That dude looks like he needs more fiber in his diet.
 
  • #974
Lacy33 said:
Respectfully, I do not think Muslims drink.

Of course you’re right Lacy, sorry. But he looks weird... the turban full of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khat" ...?
 
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  • #975
lisab said:
That dude looks like he needs more fiber in his diet.

Definitely!

300px-Muammar_al-Gaddafi_at_the_AU_summit.jpg
 
  • #976
DevilsAvocado said:
Gaddafi speaking on state television.

EDIT:
Is he drunk??!? :bugeye: :bugeye: :bugeye: :bugeye: :bugeye:
Would I be right if I guessed that you haven't watched a Gaddafi speech before? This - though I only watched for 2 painful minutes - looks to me like a typical Gaddafi ramble. Of course, in those two minutes, I couldn't figure out heads-or-tails of what he was going on about (some boy who misunderstood a poem?), but that doesn't really surprise me.
 
  • #977
Gokul43201 said:
... though I only watched for 2 painful minutes - looks to me like a typical Gaddafi ramble.
Mamma Mia...
 
  • #978
OK, many, many years ago my mother thought this hunk-o-man was all handsome and Dashing in his fancy clothes ... and she was drunk! :devil: Sorry mom... grounded me one too many times.
 
  • #979
So two Iranian warships are heading up the Suez Canal.

Expected response from America/other nations?

Also what interest does Iran have for sending these warships up the canal?
 
  • #980
Back to reality:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWHhkh7th5M

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qeUekoIzeow
 

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