What Exactly Is Happening In the Arab/Persian World?

[nismaratwork]

what a shock, they're people like any other.

I was quite struck by the absolute truth of this statement when I did the Jerusalem tour years ago. I expected evil Jews, mad Arabs, fanatical Christians ..

If there's one overwhelming impression I got concerning the lot of them (the ordinary people) is just how nice, civil and friendly they all were.

Poetry (again) I know, but Mathew Arnold said it well (from 'Dover Beach') ..

.. and we are here as on a darkling plain
caught in confused alarms of struggle or flight
where ignorant armies clash by night.

This is what makes the actions of ALL parties involved so monstrous... they're not monsters. Surely there have never been more ignorant armies than the extremes in the ME, Israel included. The confusion largely, a product of interests which seek to keep those armies from turning on them.

It's what is so heart-breaking when you see people just asking for a voice in Syria being killed, instead of spoken to.

There is always time for poetry.

 

[WhoWee]

You know, people in high places do have friends, and some of these friends might visit Physics Forums.

I once suggested that (given his background) Jimmy Carter might (annonymously) enjoy the PF - let's just say nobody agreed with me that it was possible.

 

[nismaratwork]

I once suggested that (given his background) Jimmy Carter might (annonymously) enjoy the PF - let's just say nobody agreed with me that it was possible.

Heads of state are one thing, but what do you call a guy like Astronuc? Maybe not a high place in terms of state functions (although for all I know, maybe so), but sure as hell seems to be both in his field and with some national/international heft.

 

[WhoWee]

Heads of state are one thing, but what do you call a guy like Astronuc? Maybe not a high place in terms of state functions (although for all I know, maybe so), but sure as hell seems to be both in his field and with some national/international heft.

I don't think we'll have any heads of state engaged in the politics threads - but ANYONE with an interest in science or engineering might pop in for a visit from time to time.

 

[nismaratwork]

I don't think we'll have any heads of state engaged in the politics threads - but ANYONE with an interest in science or engineering might pop in for a visit from time to time.

I agree, but you have a point... hell, it's not as though there are other sites like PF (sorry physorg) in terms of quality and presentation. Still, my point was generally that we already have some fairly impressive people judging by their careers and knowledge, and I'd be shocked if working in (again 'Nuc example) the nuclear industry in that fashion doesn't breed plut- err... connections/friends/colleauges who would be considered "in high places".

Life, as always, is about the network (and not freaking facebook!).

 

[nismaratwork]

http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/meast/03/25/syria.unrest/index.html?hpt=T2

Well... this isn't any good, and now we have violence in Oman, Jordan.

http://www.kaj18.com/news/unrest-middle-east-and-north-africa-country-by-country1/

 

[nismaratwork]

It's time to stop the "storytelling". As soon as there is an incident in the world, a new global "close friend" of yours "pops" in and out of focus – and now you claim to have been "chitchatting" with the Prime Minister of Israel, Benjamin Netanyahu and you know him on a personal level? Please give me a break!

Sheikhs and Rabbis, traveling all over the world, close global friends in almost every country, living in Japan for over 6 month, speaking Japanese (and yet missing the obvious), an "expert" in everything from schizophrenia to nuclear plants and the forces involved in tsunamis – and you are 30 years old?

WHO do you expect to believe this BS?

Well, you seem to have run off and decided to take the coward's way, so I'm forced to respond in some measure here. To say I'm surprised and dissapointed is a gross understatement.
edit: "DevilsAvocado Offline: Last Activity: Y 09:44 PM"

1.) You're reading into things that I've never said or claimed
-I do NOT speak Japanese, I've claimed (and do) understand some spoken Japanese. Wow... what a claim.
-I can understand your painful ignorance about Sheiks, but they are about as rare as rabbits, and come in varieties; political, religious, etc...
-Wow... I lived in Japan, and Ireland for a period of time. Surely nobody else can claim this... wait... what? What part of that is even modestly difficult to believe?
-Benjamin Netanyahu is not a 'close personal friend', I said I MET him, and spoke to him. Guess what, it wasn't the first time he paid this state a visit and the first time he was married to a close family friend, although that was before my time. So yeah, that's a little different, but he's one guy.

2.) Travel: I'm well traveled, but then so are a LOT of people. I'm sorry that when you travel, you don't make friends.
-Schools are a great place to socialize and make friends, and I went to a few. Check on some time Jigme (the younger) Wangchuck spent in High School, compare with the info I gave you... it's unambiguous. Was he a bosom buddy? No. Did we sit around with others and chat like normal kids? Yeah, although he had a picture of him hunting with bodyguard... he shot a deer with an AK-47... interesting stuff I won't forget.
-Same school was very international, and again... friends.

2.) Work and life: You do tend to meet people from other countries when you don't live in an utterly homogeneous society.
-I'm not religious, but I'm not vehemently against religious people so it's easy to make friends.
-In the case of one Kuwaiti friend I referenced, we were both losing weight in NC, and the "good people" there thought he was, "a greasy Arab" (direct quote). That alone gave me reason enough to talk to him, and he is anything but, and NC has a very extensive Muslim immigrant population. We got along, his 'brother' came over, his wife visited and his son who was a little younger than I. I got an invite, and took him up on the offer. What. A. Shock.

The rest is similar... family, friends, maintaining contacts with interesting people because MOST are closed-minded and rigid, not to mention dumber than bricks. Why come and chat in non-physics portions of PF?... it's the online extension of my offline behavior.

3.) Claims of expertise: I've made literally NONE. I read, and I'm willing to learn from error, and I had an exceptional education, much to my pleasure and dumb luck.
-I'm not an expert in Schizophrenia, but it's certainly a primary area of interest for me, along with abnormal psychology in general. Hint: experts don't have the ethical latitude to speculate as I do online in personal cases. You should know that, but there appear to be gaps in your knowledge I would not have anticipated.
-Where the hell did I claim to be an expert in nuclear ANYTHING? I've spent the majority of my time just soaking up everything I can from Astronuc and Ivan_Seeking (two different, yet informed views). Where in my constant questioning did you see a claim of expertise?

In short DA, what the hell are you talking about, or is this just your way of resolving a bit of cognitive dissonance now that you hate my views on the ME and Israel? There's more of course, in your PM should you return to read it, an respond. I'm not waiting upon your pleasure however, to defend myself from what amounts to libelous idiocy; consider this a simple first step.

 

[nismaratwork]

http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2011/03/25/libya-live-blog-uae-to-support-enforce-no-fly-zone/?hpt=T1

NATO is now accepting (in principle) the full scope of UN-1973, much as we had to. Hand-over successful, which I'd say reads a hell of a lot better than, "Mission Accomplished" in a flight suit.

 

[nismaratwork]

More joy in Syria, 2 children killed among 37 others, with about 100 injured. These people aren't even calling for an end to Assad, just a change in how the government treats them. I hope our Syrian members are safe.

http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/meast/03/25/syria.unrest/index.html?hpt=T1

 

[FizixFreak]

http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2011/03/24/libya-live-blog-coalition-airstrikes-continue-in-tripoli/

C&C of the operation in Libya is being handed off to NATO.

@FixizFreak: Realpolitik: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Realpolitik

I would say that I have hopes, but that at the same time I recognize the likely outcomes. These conflicts are never one-sided, and we are talking about two groups who want to kill each other, to destroy the other as though they had never existed. History teaches that such conflicts tend to end when just that happens, or exhaustion sets in. I'm yet to see any signs of any group in the ME tiring of violence except rhetorically, the practice is violence. Palestinians kill Israelis, Israelis retaliate. Israelis bulldoze homes, Palestinians retaliate. So on, and So on, around and around.

Oh, and it is not cool to be called a monster in the USA, but as you can see from say, Proton's reaction, my views are generally held to be monstrous. I don't endorse killing of Palestinians, but I don't endorse supporting the inevitably losing side of a conflict. What are we to do, when so much religious and cultural hatred exists? How do you reason with people who think you bleed their children for the sabbath, or with people who think that it's OK to ghettoize a people?

There's no reason there, just blind hatred and old blood feuds. We all know how it ends; with killing... I'd rather save my hope for a cause that has a chance.

There is no doubt that it has become a vicious cycle but i am not going to repeatedly smash my head into a wall by continuing to argue about your ideology on this subject but i can only hope that you will one day change your views which by the way are completely beyond any logic even for a ME which you are NOT(or are you?

Now, here's a question: the two nations most poised to put a dent in the human population right now isn't the USA and any ME country, it's India and Pakistan. You have your country, which uses a nuclear deterrent so that if India were to invade, you could have a very brief window to nuke them, provoking a response in kind. You have the Line of Control, and so much of your resources fighting around Kashmir. Like it or not, I care more about the fate of India and Pakistan then I do about the fate of the Palestinians; a fate that is essentially written.

What of this generational warfare in your nation, and these events such as the relatively recent attacks in Mumbai? You have the USA funding and arming both of you, India AND Pakistan... you know that can't be good for you. I think Israel is not the worst thing happening in the region, not even close, but it gets a disproportionate amount of attention.

Well about our relations with India i have to say that our foreign policies on this subject have been too weak when mumbai attacks take place.., India blames Pakistan and they make their voice heard in the entire world but when we find proof that the indian intelligence is involved in attacks on the srilankan cricket team in Lahore AND not only that their intelligence is also involved in the violence in Baluchistan we do nothing absolutely nothing and there is not a single word of condemnation from our government even our media does not talk about this matter because of its "low rating" so with such weak policies of Pakistan and their silence on the sabotage by india..., India really does not need to actually engage with pakistan in direct warfare they are causing enough damage without a direct conflict (which will cripple their own economy) and our leaders are just sitting there doing nothing.

Yemen is a hell-hole, Syria is lovely, but don't speak out of turn or you're in hot water. Saudi Arabia is downright scary, and Iran and Afghanistan have gone from lush cosmopolitan countries to something out of the history books. Egypt is backsliding as we speak, and Tunisia is still rocked by transition. Bahrain and SA are crushing the Shia minority, and you have Iran trying to rule the region, even if they're not wanted.

Israel is a tiny slice of land in a vast ocean of violence, and ANCIENT feuds; different Adhann, different caliphs, different in small ways that add up to something LARGE. How is THAT going to change when Israel is the straw man that is used to keep populaces in line so they do not notice their leaders are rich, yet they are poor?

Well about Iran if i had to choose the Iran of either before 1979 or after 1979 i would chose the post-revolution iran because iran might have been a lush cosmopoitan country for you(before revolution) but it was a country run by a tyrant that was backed up by the US and the British and a leader who crushed opposition with brute force and only served the elites and made huge economic gaps in the rich and the poor and i wouldn't even talk about how he disgraced the islamic teachings and ideology because to understand that you have to be a muslim your self but that doesn't mean that i completely agree with the ideas of Khomeini that guy had no emotions when asked what does he feel on his return to iran he said "NOTHING" that guy was strict and cold in his approach and also very aggressive towards the out side world here is the summary to all that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XzCDdXkwe28&feature=related

The economy of Iran was damaged when the shah left but what else can you expect after being in war for about a decade against Iraq and economic isolation by the USA and not surprisingly USA was being very generous to Iran before the revolution so basically i would say that while Khomeini did not implemented the true ideology of Islam in Iran but if there was no revolution the same would happen to Iran what happened to Iraq(first used as an ally and then bombed).

You are almost right about the other countries and again your approach is to "practical" you only think what would we get from resolving an issue rather than seeing the moral values behind it.

 

[nismaratwork]

Fizix, the morality is seperate; there is no way to reconcile morality with international actions: they are not moral actions.

The reality, is that as a species, we are not moral; we're manipulative hypocrites when averaged out, with only a few gems in the dross.

 

[FizixFreak]

Fizix, the morality is seperate; there is no way to reconcile morality with international actions: they are not moral actions.

The reality, is that as a species, we are not moral; we're manipulative hypocrites when averaged out, with only a few gems in the dross.

In practical every body follows the same path.., morality in international actions should be and must be present but here is the difference of religion begins to show but the real embarrassment for me would be to admit that not even one Muslim nation actually bother to care about the moral values when he make any decision take Egypt and SA for example its actually the system that turns a leader into a RULER who never cares to think about what is right and wrong morally...,but nobody is willing to change the system so basically you are right no matter which religion HUMANS are mostly hypocrites with just a few good men.

 

[FizixFreak]

Absolutely not:As I said before – the problem is that outsiders is taking a clear stand for one part, and completely ignore the other...

And with all due respect – your post was a 'minor example' of this – asking Israel to declare ("uncomplicated") peace at the same time as Hamas is sending rockets into their bedrooms doesn’t seem like a 'working solution'... does it?

I wouldn't mind if you call me an outsider i am not an Arab/Palestinian/Lebanese and you are right no one should impose his views on anyone i think i was a little aggressive in my response and i neglected your previous post but i still don't see much complications on the side of Israel from the statistics you can clearly see that who is being an aggressor but your media never tells you that then again you shouldn't take my word for it...

And a few days before that Hamas did something bad to the Israelis, and that’s why they did that bad thing you are talking about... and few days before that Israel did something really bad... and that’s why...

I think we all know this "never-ending story". The question is – Should we leave all human progress, and return to the very "Old Books" and let it be "Eye for an Eye"?? And if so – How long should this "medieval berserk operation" continue? Until everybody are dead on both sides?

Or, should we at least try to solve this in a modern civilized manner?
I understand your feelings, and if someone bombed my relatives I would most probably feel exactly the same thing, no question about that = "operation berserk".

But the question Hamas should ask themselves – Does it work? If not, is there any hope it will work in the future?

And the answerer is NO is both cases, a literally "dead end". IT DOES NOT WORK.

And I also think you should ask yourself (living on the outside) if you in your country prefer a "medieval society", where the law is "Eye for an Eye", and "Blood Feud" is practiced? Or do you prefer a modern civilized society with civilized laws?

Personally, I fully understand the "berserk feelings", but I also fully understand the immense complications of a "medieval system".

If you try to occupy the land of people that were already living there and you do it by force don't expect any thing good from them i never said that hamas is a group of angles and the thing is that whenever Israel retaliates its targets are schools, residential areas, and mosques or if not that they would bulldoze the houses of the Palestinians now how many "terrorist" have they killed doing all those savage acts? and as for the civelized soutions there have been such attempts by the UN but none of it has effected the policies of Israel

http://www.google.com.pk/url?sa=t&s...sg=AFQjCNFCHe-f9OBIilvlevnT-HQtted_sQ&cad=rja

And as you know more about this than me, maybe you could explain to me why Fatah does not have the same 'problems' with Israel as Hamas? And why are Hamas killing members of Fatah?

The story of fatah mostly revolves around YASIR ARAFAT the founder of fatah and i don't know if you knew this or not but that man spent most of his life fighting Israel so Israel DID had problems with fatah before the Olso accords which happened in early 1990s and even after that Israel had problems with Arafat he even mentined that he could not sleep in one place on two straight nights because of the fear of assasination BY ISRAEL and that is AFTER the negotiations have taken place and after his death Israel was able to manipulate fatah to their own good so why would they have any problems with fatah NOW?
why is hamas killing fatah members? well i don't know the exact reason but they are both political parties and both are armed and they have completely different views so you can see that coming and only hamas is not guilty here fatah has also shown a lot of aggression and killed hamas members but the tragedy is that its always about hamas and fatah or other political parties but the ones who really suffer in the cross fire are the palestinians.

 

[nismaratwork]

In practical every body follows the same path.., morality in international actions should be and must be present but here is the difference of religion begins to show but the real embarrassment for me would be to admit that not even one Muslim nation actually bother to care about the moral values when he make any decision take Egypt and SA for example its actually the system that turns a leader into a RULER who never cares to think about what is right and wrong morally...,but nobody is willing to change the system so basically you are right no matter which religion HUMANS are mostly hypocrites with just a few good men.

Should be, yes, but I'm afraid I just can't believe it; I DO think about right and wrong, and generally when I have a decision I try to make the one that is moral. My own decisions do NOT have international scope however, and I've found that if I apply moral doctrine to the world at large, I just hate it.

You can look at the video I just posted and conclude that those are bad people, bad to the core. You could look at it and conclude that they're good people acting in the interests of their government. I see neither, and all that matters is that a woman was dragged away screaming for her life and her rights as a person in front of the entire world's media.

Does the religion matter? Rape and atrocities ALWAYS happen in war, although modern military tend to minimize this, you've seen US servicemen and women cross that line too. I guess I could do what a lot of people in my end of the world do, and assume that Islam is some barbaric religion and this is proof. I don't believe that either, and I don't believe any religion is any better or worse than the people who participate in it.

So, do I conclude that Libyans or Arabs, or North Africans are good/bad/ugly? No... I just know how I feel about those men and women who dragged that woman away, and the men who hurt her in the first place. As you might say, I can't judge souls, but I sure as hell can judge actions. Mubarak, Bin Ali, the entire damned House of Saud, and yeah the revolution of Iran that needs tons of Basij to keep its people "in line"... there are things wrong with these pictures.

It sure as hell isn't a religion, or moral system, because nowhere in th Hadith or Quran have I read that you're supposed to treat your fellow countryman, your brother, as less an a beast. I've seen dogs treated with more respect in countries where they are on the menu than I see Syria showing its peaceful protesters.

Yet in each case, don't these young people who want freedom from their own governments prove that it's NOT a "Muslim" or "Arab" or "Persian" problem? The problem is too complex for any single media outlet to be right or wrong...


Israel just hit Gaza with air strikes in retaliation, and no doubt the Palestinians will retaliate, then the Israelis will, and... so on. Israel is stronger, but it's not the sole aggressor, and the Palestinians can't keep fighting for a homeland that not even their Arab brothers will help them to reclaim.

Hell, you think if Arab nations had taken "back" Israel that they would have given it to the Palestinian people? Somehow, I doubt that; I think it would have been the less obvious mistreatment you see and saw in Egypt, Jordan, SA, Bahrain, Iran, Tunisia, Yemen, Afghanistan, Iraq, and elsewhere. I think you should look at what's happened to the native population of the USA (Indians/American Indians), and how well casinos and such have helped them as a WHOLE.

When people like those who ran Fatah make a career out of a lost cause, like the IRA did, they're not doing it for their people. When they make money, it's not for their people, and when they gain recognition and status its theirs alone and maybe some cronies.

You see, the other side of this is that I don't claim moral SUPERIORITY over these countries or their people; I don't think the USA, with 1.5+ million people in prison, a horrific mental health system, and our habit of selling arms to both sides of any conflict we can get our hands on is MORAL. I don't think that Israel is moral, I don't think that morality is a property of nations or large groups.

It's the recognition that we're all just a stone's throw away from being the (insert religion/political ideology here) version of Afghanistan in more parts of the world than not, says it all. The entire Middle East is a history of occupation, conquest, war, and violent change. The history of all of the Americas is the same, just a lot more one-sided and with probably the worst outcome of all time (I am thinking of south-central-north-America... all of it).

If you ask yourself who lived where you do now, 50, 100, 250, 500, 1000, years ago it turns out that we'll all occupying someone's land to one remove or another. That argument doesn't work for me, and it leads nowhere except: The winner rules. If that's some kind of morality, I must be missing something... Islam spread at sword-point, or even ahead of that... so did Christianity once it got going, and Judaism (when it was around the same age) was pretty hard and legalistic and 'pointy' too.

What's different about the Palestinians except that they're a recent conquest, and they'd rather die than accept what's already happened? You can fight the inevitable, but unfortunately the inevitable fights back, and you lose more of what you were as a people.

 

[FizixFreak]

Does the religion matter? Rape and atrocities ALWAYS happen in war, although modern military tend to minimize this,

Really? does the word abu ghraib rings a bell...

So, do I conclude that Libyans or Arabs, or North Africans are good/bad/ugly? No... I just know how I feel about those men and women who dragged that woman away, and the men who hurt her in the first place. As you might say, I can't judge souls, but I sure as hell can judge actions. Mubarak, Bin Ali, the entire damned House of Saud, and yeah the revolution of Iran that needs tons of Basij to keep its people "in line"... there are things wrong with these pictures.

It sure as hell isn't a religion, or moral system, because nowhere in th Hadith or Quran have I read that you're supposed to treat your fellow countryman, your brother, as less an a beast. I've seen dogs treated with more respect in countries where they are on the menu than I see Syria showing its peaceful protesters

If you ask yourself who lived where you do now, 50, 100, 250, 500, 1000, years ago it turns out that we'll all occupying someone's land to one remove or another. That argument doesn't work for me, and it leads nowhere except: The winner rules. If that's some kind of morality, I must be missing something... Islam spread at sword-point, or even ahead of that... so did Christianity once it got going, and Judaism (when it was around the same age) was pretty hard and legalistic and 'pointy' too.

About Iran well i have already said that they can be too aggressive and strict some times and they have behaved that way the real problem with Iran is that after shah left economicaly iran was left alone in the world because of the sanctions their citizens are now allowed to visit only a few countries the passport of iran that was very valueble in the past is considered nothing now so of course there is frustration in the iranian people because of that and now iran can't go back to the age of the shah there is no way back so sometimes the government have to use force to impose their policies its a complicated situation and the iranian president is in the position of ME where there are not much choices.

There is a difference between occupation and migration and why must the Palestinians suffer for some thing that happened some 60-70 years ago? i hope you understand what i am talking about.

The Islamic empire might have spread by the use of sword but not Islam(as a religion) it self actually the islamic world and islam it self must be seen as different entities to fully understand this matter i would talk more on this subject but i guess you and the mentors would be annoyed by it.

Wow! you have read quran and hadith great..., feel free to ask me any questions on this i would try me best to answer them.

 

[nismaratwork]

Really? does the word abu ghraib rings a bell...

Yeah, and compared to the ongoing standard practices of most POLICE in the ME, that's "minimal". Would you rather be on the wrong side of the US military, or the SA Vice&Virtue cops? I'd rather be in freaking Gitmo!

Anyway, minimized means just that... less than you would in a less disciplined force.

About Iran well i have already said that they can be too aggressive and strict some times and they have behaved that way the real problem with Iran is that after shah left economicaly iran was left alone in the world because of the sanctions their citizens are now allowed to visit only a few countries the passport of iran that was very valueble in the past is considered nothing now so of course there is frustration in the iranian people because of that and now iran can't go back to the age of the shah there is no way back so sometimes the government have to use force to impose their policies its a complicated situation and the iranian president is in the position of ME where there are not much choices.

There is the matter of them taking the USA embassy and staff hostage man, it wasn't the brightest move in the world to make. Beyond that, you have an oppressive group that treats their own people like dirt... there's little worse than a million or so Basij with a license to torture, disappear people, beat, kill, etc.

As for the Iranian president, he's a figurehead for the religious leadership that could have him removed as easily as they installed him. If you judge a people by how they treat each other, Iran is in BAD shape.

[There is a difference between occupation and migration and why must the Palestinians suffer for some thing that happened some 60-70 years ago? i hope you understand what i am talking about.

They have to because it's already happened, they already lost. I understand the morality of what you're talking about, but that they're the latest to be evicted from that particular bit of land is neither new or news. They're part of a cycle of ongoing conquest, failure, occupation, and re-conquering. It's not fun, it's not nice, but it's older than our concepts of political and human rights.

Why should American Indians (Native Americans) be consigned to a poor life and eventual genetic extinction? No good reason except that Europe decided they liked them dead better than they liked them alive, and every colonist since agreed. It's arguably the worst thing that's happened in the last few centuries; while WWII was horrendous, even that doesn't compare in terms of being SUCCESSFUL genocide.

How far back do we go with Israel?... before Islam? Before Christianity? Before Judaism? I suppose in a general sense the world should be Africa's and the ME's. I wouldn't hold your breath on that, because the reality is that if you want to look back 60 years, you might as well look back more. A people who conquered were conquered... it's an old story, so what makes Palestine special except that people generally dislike Jews and Israelis?

[The Islamic empire might have spread by the use of sword but not Islam(as a religion) it self actually the Islamic world and Islam it self must be seen as different entities to fully understand this matter i would talk more on this subject but i guess you and the mentors would be annoyed by it.

Islam, as you know, is law, religion, lifestyle all together. You can't separate the empire form the law, and you can't separate the law from the faith. Sharia as you know, is not a choice in Islam, it's supposed to be direct instructions from god. Spreading one, is spreading the other if it's to make any sense.

[Wow! you have read Quran and Hadith great..., feel free to ask me any questions on this i would try me best to answer them.

Of course! How could I possibly be agnostic without reading the scriptures of many people? Besides, I may not agree with Islam any more than I do with any religion, but in every religion there is plenty of good information. That said, a reading doesn't make me a scholar, but it's enough to realize that the Hadith is essentially a thing of trust: A who knew B, who was brother to C, who was a faithful servant of the prophet Muhammad, and A believes that X is the right idea.

I find it interesting especially because the Quran itself is clear: this is the word of god, not interpreted, but copied perfectly. To stray is no worse than in other religions which posit a merciful god, but unlike others there is less room to interpret. You can't say that something in the Quran is a parable, because it's supposed to be divine instructions, not a divine inspiration mediated by humans.

In my limited experience, I've seen how this puts Muslims in conflict with the modern world (not war/terrorism conflict), because a heck of a lot of it is just wrong by Islamic standards. It strikes me as a difficult balance to keep, but it goes a long way to explaining why the Sunni-Shiite divide isn't a small issue. Rather, it represents an intolerable dichotomy of interpretation when in theory the religion states clearly that there is nothing to be interpreted, only followed.

I've tried to discuss contradictions in the Quran before, and in my experience that leads to upset and quarrel. A pious Muslim isn't going to believe in such a thing, will use the Hadith to explain why a contradiction is not a contradiction. I'm no Islamic scholar, so who am I to say otherwise, but it seems to be something that deeply disturbs the Muslims I've met.

So... I have one question: How do you live according to a religion that is based on utter obedience to the unadulterated word of god, and still live in a world that is largely NOT in accord with those beliefs and principles? Not drinking, performing the Hajj, praying 5 times a day... this isn't hard to believe, and I've seen how unobtrusive most of the pillars are. On the other hand, Islam holds that women are fundamentally LESS than men, made less, and I can't accept that, and never will. I've seen how trying to be faithful to that kind of thing tears apart kind-hearted, well educated, and modern Muslim men.
ref: "Men are in charge of women, because Allah made men to be better than women. Women must obey men..." Sura 2:228 , "Men are a 'degree' above women," so how are rights equal, which stated in the same Sura?

Finally, and this is the nail in the coffin for me, not to reject Islam, but why I could never accept the Quran as truly the word of a god: Sura 4:34

"Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in their sleeping places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great."

I've read at at least half a dozen translations, and they all agree: men over women, period. Now, in practice in the west, that's still often the way women are treated, but to make that a religious and legal reality by divine decree? No, I cannot accept that, and that's the problem; I think plenty of what Islam has to say is worth listening to, but you aren't supposed to take it bit by bit: all or nothing, non-Muslim, Muslim, or Taqfir.


Anyway, I've gone off topic, but I've never discussed this with a Pakistani man before, and you're very reasonable. I don't doubt or challenge your piety and faith, I'm speaking only of my own issues with it, as a non-Muslim, as an agnostic in general. I don't put, "Peace and blessings be upon him", because it would be a lie from me, not that I wouldn't wish that for anyone, but I'm no Muslim and no pretender.

Don't worry, I'm not going to rail about modesty cultures... the Quran is pretty clear about modesty, and nowhere does it say women need to wear a sack or be accompanied by a male; that is cultural to protect virtue. I think it's WAY overboard, as women are not considered chattel in Sharia, and frankly their honor or virtue is their's to lose or not (again, speaking in Islamic terms, not my own judgment).

 

[nismaratwork]

Now THIS is good news! Truly surprising as well.

http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/africa/03/27/libya.beaten.woman/index.html?hpt=C1

 

[alt]

Nismar - I probably shouldn’t stick my nose into the matter between you and DA. Still, it leaps out .. I can almost touch the anger you were feeling, and can also speculate at the remorse DA may well be feeling. So, what the heck ..

There is no doubt you’ve been wrongly aggrieved. Firstly, some comments about your recent responses;

You said;
I do NOT speak Japanese, I've claimed (and do) understand some spoken Japanese. Wow... what a claim

This is quite plausible. I speak some 50 words or so in Italian. However, given that I’ve had much association with Italians over the years, I can understand nearly everything that’s said to me in Italian.

You said;
.. Sheiks .. are about as rare as rabbits, and come in varieties; political, religious, etc...

Again, very plausible. I recall booking into the Ramses Hilton in Cairo years ago. There was a wealthy Kuwait family celebrating a wedding in the grand ballroom. Half the males there seemed to be Sheiks - what, in their glittering fine array, ceremonial daggers ‘n all. Later, in the ‘Pharaohs Loft’ on the top floor, with a view way out to the Giza plateau and the pyramids, I got talkin’ to a couple of, umm, Sheiks. Young fellows, not over 30 - one was a IT worker - the other owned a grocery store in Kuwait .. Sheiks they thought themselves as, nonetheless.

You said;
Benjamin Netanyahu is not a 'close personal friend', I said I MET him, and spoke to him.

This too is not an unusual thing. Contacts like this happen. Example, my sisters sister in law was office secretary to the Ministerial Office of our ex Prime Minister, John Howard. Her husband owned and operated a rather swish restaurant at which I ate regularly, and which the Liberal Party (John Howard’s) occasionally booked for party related functions. Through these, I met and spoke to JH several times - whilst he was PM.

More;
Travel, work, family, friends ..

So much of what you say on this bears striking similarities to things I’ve experienced. Nothing implausible here.

Claims of expertise ..

I pay little attention to such claims or lack thereof, and usually evaluate a person by his actions rather than his claims. In any case, I can’t recall an instance where you ‘claimed’ too much.

Then, you said;
I'm not waiting upon your pleasure however, to defend myself from what amounts to libellous idiocy; consider this a simple first step.

Nismar, these are anonymous internet forums. The Law Of Torts .. Defamation, Libel .. Yes, you hear a good deal about one party suing another as a consequence of internet defamation. But if anything, that’s more ‘bark’ than ‘bite’, and probably put out for the purposes of promoting good etiquette. There has rarely being a successful prosecution even in cases where the defamed party was KNOWN at large. Even rarer (if at all existent), is a successful prosecution by one ANONYMOUS party against another ANONYMOUS party. How do you traduce a username ?

But even if you could successfully prosecute, would you ? Would you prosecute someone who acted (no matter how wrongly) in a condition precedent on anonymity of both parties ?

You are a very passionate, strongly opinionated man. The mark of an even stronger man, IMO, is to take a deep breath when aggrieved as you have been, and let the anger diffuse.

He called you a liar and a pretender. Have you or I not done as bad on other occasions - at least one occasion in our past ?

Let the anger dissipate out of your system.

I know the righteousness in you calls for retribution, but think about what you’ve been saying here about the Middle East problem. Good people, acting in, retaliating in, haste. To what avail ? What got better ? What will get better for YOU here ? Anyone with half a brain here, can see who’s been right .. who’s been wrong ..

Perhaps in time, DA will front and apologise. However, even if he does not, you are then vindicated all the more by that very glaring act of omission on his part !

 

[nismaratwork]

Oh don't get me wrong, I don't mean libelous as in, "I'm suing for character defamation", but simply as the best descriptor of what was done. What makes me so angry, and you're right... I'm pissed... is that DA clearly thought I was full of it for a LOOOONG time, and never said it to me privately or otherwise. How can you be pals online, or off, how can you have a meaningful exchange if you secretly think someone is a lying sack, and you don't bother to confront that?

I can understand why anyone would doubt me, or anyone else online. I've had an odd life (sounds like you have too), but nothing odder than many an "army brat" to use one very common example. I'm not that for the record, not that it's bad (a little lonely I'd guess), but I'd guess something like that and ask before I leaped to "load of dung".

So... no, not only would I NOT prosecute, and lacking a cause of action it would be a laughable proposition anyway, and I'm already far less angry than I was. I'm quite honest in what I said, I'm disappointed. Yes, I care about my image to some degree, I'm not beyond that by any means, but even if he came back and DID bother to apologize (or not)... I would find it very hard to trust him.

What good would it do if I lied to FizixFreak about my views on the middle east? He'd be happier perhaps, but he'd lose the chance to challenge my views, and we'd both lose the whole point of this site: to learn, to understand each other, and to share information. What good would it do if Proton Soup pretended that he didn't despise my views on the issue of Israel? Nothing... nothing at all. It's GOOD to be honest in these matters, although I appreciate the measure of restraint on the part of Proton and Fizix (they could just call me a name and walk away), I appreciate the honest interaction even more.

I don't mind you "butting in" as you put it, or as I would put it, trying to be reasonable in the face of anger on one hand and absence on the other. Besides... you have a good point especially in your second to last lines... what good comes of this either? As you say, vindication is not really the issue; at the stupid cost of that anonymity DA knows he's wrong, and his apology or absence both act toward the same end for me.

What I regret, is that he felt the need to (forgive me Berkeman) B* me, then blow-up and do this in the middle of a thread. I regret that now I have to think a few extra times before sharing any personal accounts because hey, maybe it's just seen as bull, and then why share it at all?

Then I also have to wonder: I haven't claimed expertise, but is there something in my manner that IMPLIES it? Am I being deceptive without actually lying on these issues? In short, because I considered him a pal, he was able to drive the knife home far deeper than most, on or offline. So, I wonder, what is it about me that inspired that kind of deception, then explosion, or was it me at all? I'm left having no way to know, and torn with some measure of regret that I offered a measure of trust to someone who thought/thinks I'm essentially a pathological liar.


For one other reason I can't get into, that stings especially because while it isn't true, there is a kernel of deception in the anonymity of this forum, and the internet. A "friend" is a general term instead of name-dropping or compromising the anonymity of another, or revealing the nature of the relationship. This isn't, after all, a forum where people want or need to hear my or anyone's life-story... it's about information and learning, not authority. Have I failed in my attempt to share those personal bits, balanced against yapping away?

*sigh*

I have taken that breath alt, but by deciding to run instead of stand, DA has left me with nothing to do, BUT breath deeply and consider all of the angles.

Anyway... thank you alt... I don't suppose that any of this is on topic, and some do so love to pick over such exchanges and report... still... the public nature of the initial slam makes it hard to stick it all in PMs, and making a separate thread is beyond even my degree of arrogance. I'll think about all that you've said, and the wider implications beyond this event.

Ah well...

On an even less pleasant front, it's unclear if that woman who claims to have been gang-raped in Libya IS actually free. The claims now are rather... chilling; that she's in the primary compound in Tripoli, that it's a criminal matter now... etc.

Bottom line: nobody has seen or heard from her since she was dragged away like a quarrelsome animal. Putting pragmatism aside for a brief moment, and recognizing that worse happens ALL of the time..

...this is heartbreaking, infuriating, and so very wrong. That with all of the power the world's major forces wield, one woman who braves the heart of 'enemy' territory just to be heard and seen, to put a face on the faceless cannot be protected or saved. It's he face of every woman in every country who's had rape used as a weapon of terror, or simply because people CAN, and to be fair, not just women.

What we have in the ME is an unbearable state of affairs, with Egypt having changed less than many might have hoped, still torturing 'political prisoners' and getting ready to outlaw demonstrations. You live a good life alt, I have a pretty good life... most people here do, or they wouldn't be here. Still, for all of that, it's back to national interests... there is no other way without simply bathing in the horror of what IS, compared to a visceral sense of what should NOT be.

I don't pretend that humans are built for a Utopia, but we can do better than gang rapes and beatings, shelling our own people, firing rockets into Israel, and Israel leveling homes and bombing; without Pakistan and India at daggers drawn with nuclear ordinance ready to go.

I can't even list everything here, and it would be pointless to do so. Moments like this however, when we talk about kinship, brotherhood, national pride, morality... and then see the world follows none of that... it's terribly hard not to despair or hate.

Add a tsunami, and a grumpy avocado, and it's just a step too far. I intellectualize things, but I'm not actually devoid of emotions.

 

[nismaratwork]

Dis badness mon, pure Babylon working no I an I want a pat o dis!

http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/meast/03/28/syria.unrest/index.html?hpt=T2

STORY HIGHLIGHTS
NEW: Witness: Syrian security forces move to disperse protesters in Daraa
NEW: Mysterious black-shirted men terrorize residents in Latakia, witness says
Daraa is extremely tense, according to a witness
U.N.: At least 37 people have died in clashes between protesters and security forces

Libya is also rather volatile...

http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/africa/03/28/libya.war/index.html?hpt=T2

STORY HIGHLIGHTS
NEW: Rebels enter Gadhafi loyalist territory, then flee gunfire, rebels say
A rebel says Gadhafi forces raised a white flag, then shot them
NATO's chief says the aim in Libya is to protect people, not arm them
Libyan state television claims civilians are injured from Sabha bombing

 

[alt]

Oh don't get me wrong,

First, let me say I'm glad you didn't take my post as interference - I was on the cusp of making it or not making it .. but finally decided to do so. Why, you might ask .. well, probably because enmity (by any party - I'm not accusing you of it) shouldn't be left hanging - it is counterproductive to progress, and will always fester in the silent background.

You said;
Then I also have to wonder: I haven't claimed expertise, but is there something in my manner that IMPLIES it? Am I being deceptive without actually lying on these issues?

I don't think so .. No, and No. What I think it is, is that you have strong opinions, make them, and back them up. Some people find strong opinions confronting. Tough ! It's up to them to challange them - or not.

I appreciate the forthrightness in which you've commented in about the Middle East. Again, your comments go one or two steps further than some folks comfort zone - and challange the 'Jew/Arab .. hater/lover' paradigm they find themselves in. Oh well - what did that brilliant Arabic philosopher (can't recall his name at the mo) say ? "Pain and sorrow is the breaking of the shell that encompasses our understanding"

Finally, I am particulary struck by some comments of yours a while back on this thread ..

I'm already a monster I'm sorry to say .. I just happen to be a well spoken monster that can articulate my views, but I don't think that spares me from harsh ends of reality.

Very few people have the audacity, the perception and the honesty to put it thus. Too much out of their comfort zone - by many leagues. But it is so. Each of us is only a moment away from being a monster if the occasion calls.

 

[nismaratwork]

First, let me say I'm glad you didn't take my post as interference - I was on the cusp of making it or not making it .. but finally decided to do so. Why, you might ask .. well, probably because enmity (by any party - I'm not accusing you of it) shouldn't be left hanging - it is counterproductive to progress, and will always fester in the silent background.

You said;
Then I also have to wonder: I haven't claimed expertise, but is there something in my manner that IMPLIES it? Am I being deceptive without actually lying on these issues?

I don't think so .. No, and No. What I think it is, is that you have strong opinions, make them, and back them up. Some people find strong opinions confronting. Tough ! It's up to them to challange them - or not.

I appreciate the forthrightness in which you've commented in about the Middle East. Again, your comments go one or two steps further than some folks comfort zone - and challange the 'Jew/Arab .. hater/lover' paradigm they find themselves in. Oh well - what did that brilliant Arabic philosopher (can't recall his name at the mo) say ? "Pain and sorrow is the breaking of the shell that encompasses our understanding"

Finally, I am particulary struck by some comments of yours a while back on this thread ..

I'm already a monster I'm sorry to say .. I just happen to be a well spoken monster that can articulate my views, but I don't think that spares me from harsh ends of reality.

Very few people have the audacity, the perception and the honesty to put it thus. Too much out of their comfort zone - by many leagues. But it is so. Each of us is only a moment away from being a monster if the occasion calls.

Thank you alt... I'm not good at taking compliments, praise or anything like that, but thank you. I certainly don't see you as interfering, just trying to help both DA and myself, and the atmosphere in general. I take you at your word, and I thank you... I do hope that I haven't burned too many bridges in my comments about the Middle East.

Still... it's so complex, and if people didn't realize that before, surely the populist attempt to change their fates should tell the tale. We are all SO much more alike than not, but seem to spend endless energy drawing lines between each other.

He's a Jew so he must be blah. She's a Christian so she must do blah. They're Muslim and they all are blah.

I call Bull. We are different in some key ways based more on economic class and where in the world we are, but still more alike than not. It's what makes the actions of all involved so horrific, we may as well be cutting our own wrists as shooting our neighbours.

Did you see the video of the Libyan woman claiming rape?... another woman put a bag over her head. The world is mad.

 

[alt]

Nismar - had drafted this last night - just had the chance to post it now;

Thank you alt... I'm not good at taking compliments, praise or anything like that, but thank you. I certainly don't see you as interfering, just trying to help both DA and myself, and the atmosphere in general. I take you at your word, and I thank you... I do hope that I haven't burned too many bridges in my comments about the Middle East.

If speaking your mind HAS to result in burning your bridges, then what alternative do you have ? You’re going to burn them sooner or later, or live a lie - a worse fate.

Still... it's so complex, and if people didn't realize that before, surely the populist attempt to change their fates should tell the tale. We are all SO much more alike than not, but seem to spend endless energy drawing lines between each other.

He's a Jew so he must be blah. She's a Christian so she must do blah. They're Muslim and they all are blah.

I call Bull. We are different in some key ways based more on economic class and where in the world we are, but still more alike than not. It's what makes the actions of all involved so horrific, we may as well be cutting our own wrists as shooting our neighbours.

One the news today - a village in Japan .. A preschool of about 100 kiddies, 6 klm in from the coast. A 6 metre wall of black water swept it all away. The poor, poor parents go there daily. You can see the altered state of consciousness on their faces .. sifting through the rubble in a pitiful, heart wrenching attempt to find the meanest of mementos of their forever gone children .. a pencil case .. a shoe .. anything ..

But that was a natural event - beyond human control. How much more destitute then, does the piteous recognition make us feel .. the piteous recognition that men visit far worse upon each other by choice ?

Having connections in the ME and in Europe, I too share your keen pain concerning the ME. Why does this happen ? Why does this millennia old feud continue ? Some of the most cultured people on earth, ready to become monsters at a moments notice, and to visit unspeakable horror upon each other. Men, young men who would have in different circumstances, sat down in a piazza and drunk coffee, oogled at pretty young things ..

ready to gut each other at a moments notice ..

Things thought too long can be no longer thought, I'm afraid. Maybe my simplistic view of the world isn't far off - the primary motivators of human affairs are GREED and FEAR. Intellect, culture, sophistication .. these are vapid things when greed and fear are stirred sufficiently in men's minds.

I think it has always been that way.


The gyres! the gyres! Old Rocky Face, look forth;
Things thought too long can be no longer thought,
For beauty dies of beauty, worth of worth,
And ancient lineaments are blotted out.
Irrational streams of blood are staining earth;
Empedocles has thrown all things about;
Hector is dead and there's a fire in Troy;
We that look on but laugh in tragic joy.

The Gyres - William Butler Yeats

 

[WhoWee]

It occurred to me that with the hand-over of power to NATO, President Obama is giving them discretionary spending over $1 million (each) missles - does that bother anyone else?

 

[DevilsAvocado]

"Netanyahu-gate": I could go into the humiliating details, but I won’t. Overreactions and infractions speaks for itself, further comments superfluous.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rE0-ek6MZA"

 

[alt]

It occurred to me that with the hand-over of power to NATO, President Obama is giving them discretionary spending over $1 million (each) missles - does that bother anyone else?

What, the cost of the missiles ?

 

[WhoWee]

What, the cost of the missiles ?

Among the other costs - yes. If you owned a home improvement warehouse, would you give the keys to a smaller hardware store because they were running a community fix-up project?

 

[alt]

Among the other costs - yes. If you owned a home improvement warehouse, would you give the keys to a smaller hardware store because they were running a community fix-up project?

Well, no, to run with your analogy - I wouldn't.

So I'm reading this that your concern is a monetary one (I'm not criticizing that - I just wnat to make sure I understand you).

 

[WhoWee]

Well, no, to run with your analogy - I wouldn't.

So I'm reading this that your concern is a monetary one (I'm not criticizing that - I just wnat to make sure I understand you).

I'm much more concerned that we don't seem to have a plan regarding the "Libyan Strongman" - given his pledge to hurt US. That aside, does it make sense to turn (our) asset allocation/use strategies over to other people? Were there any limits imposed?

 

[Proton Soup]

"Netanyahu-gate": I could go into the humiliating details, but I won’t. Overreactions and infractions speaks for itself, further comments superfluous.
[/URL]

oh, that is very interesting indeed.

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/checkpoint-washington/2010/07/netanyahu_america_is_a_thing_y.html

Netanyahu also bragged how he undercut the peace process when he was prime minister during the Clinton administration. "They asked me before the election if I'd honor [the Oslo accords]," he said. "I said I would, but ... I'm going to interpret the accords in such a way that would allow me to put an end to this galloping forward to the '67 borders. How did we do it? Nobody said what defined military zones were. Defined military zones are security zones; as far as I'm concerned, the entire Jordan Valley is a defined military zone. Go argue."

transcript and video: http://mondoweiss.net/2010/07/the-world-wont-say-a-thing-netanyahu-on-ongoing-israeli-expansion.html

 

[DevilsAvocado]

oh, that is very interesting indeed.

ahh... huum... I think there might be some misunderstanding... my fault...

When referring to "Netanyahu-gate", I was addressing the "Private Little War" that has erupted since I was claiming nismaratwork is talking bull when says he "knows" Benjamin Netanyahu and has made a "psychological profile" on him. I don’t want to go into the details (since he has threaten me with "Dark internet retaliation" if I do ), but if he did meet him (which I strongly doubt considering the mess) nismar was just a little kid – not capable of "profiling". But enough is enough, his reaction speaks for itself, and now he got banned on top of everything (I did not report him).

You don’t have to be a genius to figure out that Netanyahu is mean bastard; probably a lot would be very different in the ME without him. He started a smear campaign against Yitzhak Rabin and the Oslo Accords, and addressed protesters of the Oslo movement at rallies where posters portrayed Rabin in a Nazi SS uniform or being targeted by the cross-hairs of a sniper. All this madness resulted in the assassination of Yitzhak Rabin on November 4, 1995. Netanyahu strenuously denied provoking the violence...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9MTx8O_1hzU

(Hello? Sarah Palin? waky waky)

 

[Proton Soup]

yeah, OK. I'm really not interested in any name-dropping tho, because it doesn't change anything. and I'm not going to think more or less of people if they are related by marriage or some other nebulous interaction. the facts on file are plenty sufficient for discussion if i just ignore it. such as the close ties between Netanyahu and the settlers. i would agree, they are plenty scary. the settlers are ultra right-wing zealots and they have been making a lot of trouble lately.

 

[BobG]

I'm much more concerned that we don't seem to have a plan regarding the "Libyan Strongman" - given his pledge to hurt US. That aside, does it make sense to turn (our) asset allocation/use strategies over to other people? Were there any limits imposed?

So your real issue is belonging to groups such as NATO? Or belonging to any multi-national force?

And it's your opinion that the way these groups work is that member nations turn their people and weapons over to the lead country to be used however the lead country pleases?

I think the latter assumption is wrong. Even when fighting as a part of NATO or some other group, our military forces and weapons still belong to the US and the US can decide to pull its troops out of the alliance at any time. Of course, then we wouldn't be seen as a very reliable ally, so there is pressure to go along unless any issues the US has with the overall strategy/asset allocation are serious enough to justify the repercussions.

 

[DevilsAvocado]

yeah, OK. I'm really not interested in any name-dropping tho, because it doesn't change anything. and I'm not going to think more or less of people if they are related by marriage or some other nebulous interaction. the facts on file are plenty sufficient for discussion if i just ignore it. such as the close ties between Netanyahu and the settlers. i would agree, they are plenty scary. the settlers are ultra right-wing zealots and they have been making a lot of trouble lately.

Yeah, agree 100%. It’s a disgrace that the U.S. – as the only one of the 15 members in the U.N. Security Council – vetoed the http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/41671189/ns/world_news-mideast/n_africa/" as "illegal under international law".

IMHO this is not 'compatible' with the Obama Speech in Cairo on June 4, 2009...

 

[WhoWee]

So your real issue is belonging to groups such as NATO? Or belonging to any multi-national force?

And it's your opinion that the way these groups work is that member nations turn their people and weapons over to the lead country to be used however the lead country pleases?

I think the latter assumption is wrong. Even when fighting as a part of NATO or some other group, our military forces and weapons still belong to the US and the US can decide to pull its troops out of the alliance at any time. Of course, then we wouldn't be seen as a very reliable ally, so there is pressure to go along unless any issues the US has with the overall strategy/asset allocation are serious enough to justify the repercussions.

Let's not over-complicate the discussion. I asked if it bothered anyone else that President Obama is willing to let someone else decide how many of our $1 million missles will be destroyed. Did any of the Arab states offer to reimburse us for the 100+ missles that were used the first day?