What Exactly Is Happening In the Arab/Persian World?

[FizixFreak]

This is all usa and isreal fault if it weren't for them we could live in peace without the everyday interferences in our daily lives

If you see me killing you brother and your brother is crying for help but you don't help him you just stand there and watch so who would be held responsible for you brother's death?

 

[elabed haidar]

we are laready with them we fought isreal in 2006 in lebanon i assume you knowabout that what can you expect from a small country like us to do go to libya and fight if our government which doesn't exist anyway was islamic like iran we could have destroyed isreal from a really long long time ago

 

[Char. Limit]

Funny, Iran is Islamic and they have a nuclear program. Nonetheless, Israel is still there. I wonder if Khomeini realizes that without Israel as a scapegoat, the Iranians might start looking further at their own leader and the crimes he's committed.

 

[WhoWee]

This is all usa and isreal fault if it weren't for them we could live in peace without the everyday interferences in our daily lives

Care to label this opinion - or support with facts?

 

[DevilsAvocado]

emphasis mine

This is all usa and isreal fault if it weren't for them we could live in peace without the everyday interferences in our daily lives

I could easily exchange that to:

This is all Iran and Hamas fault if it weren’t for them we could live in peace without the everyday interferences in our daily lives.​

And it would be exactly as valid.

we are laready with them we fought isreal in 2006 in lebanon i assume you knowabout that what can you expect from a small country like us to do go to libya and fight if our government which doesn't exist anyway was islamic like iran we could have destroyed isreal from a really long long time ago

Don’t you understand? The reason you don’t have a government is because not so smart 'opinions' like this...

Israel has the largest army in the region, IDF possesses top-of-the-line weapons, is widely believed to possesses weapons of mass destruction, and to be one of four nuclear-armed countries, and is supported by the last nuclear superpower on the planet – and your goal is to DESTROY Israel!?

Don’t you understand how ridiculous this is? Even if you (by a miracle) would get the similar military strength – the result would "only" be WW3 and a complete destruction of the planet.

Is this something you dream about??

Please, stop the 'revolutionary dreams' and come back to earth, and look for realistic long-term solutions, and lay down the guns – and start talking!

 

[nismaratwork]

awesome. then we are on different sides. if by some quirk of fate, israel suddenly finds itself on the losing side, i don't want to hear a peep from you. all you understand is power and aggression. we tried appeasement once in europe, and it was a tragic failure. I'm not falling for it again. and I'm not having sympathy for people that learned nothing from their own tragedies except how great it is to be the aggressor.

You're entitled to your view, and clear anger, but understand that I'm not moved. I really don't care if I'm a terrible person or not, I simply evaluate situations individually, not based on some dream. Your talk of appeasement and reference to WWII however, is unseemly. If you want to rant in response to my honest and personal appraisal, try those PM's you hate; it's far more appropriate for that. Here, you might want to stick to something less than a diatribe.

I believe that once you confine yourself to one side, you're doomed. You can support a side or outcome, but making it purely binary is to ignore complexity that is quite informative.

@FizixFreak: Israel is acting in a fairly monstrous fashion, and the Palestinians are doing the same. As you say, the people who have NO excuse are the Arab nations who make it almost impossible for a Palestinian to get so much as a work visa; to them this is just a distraction so they can steal more from their people. Why, if Israel were no longer an issue, people might notice their own dictators like Mubarak, Qaddafi, Assad... oh wait, they did!

I know you strongly disagree with my view Fizix, but I'm not going to lie to you or anyone else about it. I'm also not going to dress it up in a moral justification; I think you understand that the ME is not a gentle place at the level of governments (the people are great). You can't be soft in the ME and expect to survive, and with nations carved by the French, British, and sometimes the USA... well... it's amazing things have held this long.

I think that once this all settles down and the people have the governments they want (or something closer), Israel is going to actually be FORCED to change internal policy, or risk war. Yes, it's a war they'd probably win, but at what cost in the short and long term?

My point: No one is clean in this, no one is innocent, nobody is purely a victim or victimizer; it's a complex relationship of hatred, fear, frustration, and callous abuse by those in high office or the very rich.

@Char.Limit: I doubt that Iran is so far-sighted. After all, they have to know that Israel will strafe their metropolis before they allow a nuclear armed Iran. There's no talking to either nation, both have set themselves on a collision course.


This is all a miserable state of affairs, but all the international community has done is drag this out endlessly for the sake of spice and silk, salt and gold, and now strategic positioning and oil. What should we expect form ALL sides of a conflict when one empire, secular, Islamic, Christian, other... all keep raiding the SAME places? Turkey can barely hold, and they had Ataturk... I see little hope for the future there. Above all, I'm disgusted by the behavior of Arab nations who claim the Palestinians as their brothers, but in practice reject them.

I'll never forget in Kuwait, the only Palestinians you saw (RARELY) were poor...POOR! In Kuwait! On work visas that had to be constantly renewed, because as one friend explained, "they are like mad dogs." What!? If that's how their brothers see them, how does anyone expect Israel to do anything except make that perception reality, and "win" that way?

Hell, look at Egypt, where the military just banned protests... almost as though they hadn't learned a lesson.

What will happen in Syria? What does that mean for Lebanon? Israel is an issue on all sides, pro, anti, and neutral, but it's not the immediate issue until these Arab and Persian thieving royal families get the boot from their own people. That gives a moral high-ground to the Arab and Persian nations, who given time will have forged a real government that can represent their interests.

I just wonder, one that happens, will they still PRETEND to care about the Palestinians?

 

[nismaratwork]

emphasis mine


I could easily exchange that to:

This is all Iran and Hamas fault if it weren’t for them we could live in peace without the everyday interferences in our daily lives.​

And it would be exactly as valid.

Don’t you understand? The reason you don’t have a government is because not so smart 'opinions' like this...

Israel has the largest army in the region, IDF possesses top-of-the-line weapons, is widely believed to possesses weapons of mass destruction, and to be one of four nuclear-armed countries, and is supported by the last nuclear superpower on the planet – and your goal is to DESTROY Israel!?

Don’t you understand how ridiculous this is? Even if you (by a miracle) would get the similar military strength – the result would "only" be WW3 and a complete destruction of the planet.

Is this something you dream about??

Please, stop the 'revolutionary dreams' and come back to earth, and look for realistic long-term solutions, and lay down the guns – and start talking!

I would normally agree, but the Palestinians were betrayed so completely by the PLO under Arafat, and their neighbours... how can they possibly expect talk to work? The Israelis are just tired of being bombed and dealing with people who HAVE become ruled by radicals, after being ruled by criminals.

Until the USA, Russia, China, and EU all sit down with REAL governments in the ME, and place Jerusalem into some kind of multinational custodianship, then adress the issue of the Palestinian diaspora... there is going to be no peace. I'm not religious, but I've never spoken to a religious Israeli, or Arab who doesn't think that Jerusalem should be theirs... the Palestinians rarely come up except as props.

I think people forget just how much has been stolen from the Palestinian people by their own leaders, and after a couple generations of being radicalized by anyone with an agenda... of course this is the way.

Think of what it took to (mostly) resolve the issue of the IRA, and that was with governments that weren't ad hoc revolutionary kleptocracies. We're not going to see peace in the ME in our lifetimes, if ever.

That is why I choose a side in some ways, as Proton so eloquently stated.

 

[nismaratwork]

G-d, this is truly sick:

http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/africa/03/23/libya.war/index.html?hpt=T1

STORY HIGHLIGHTS
NEW: Coalition effort is not "a land invasion," according to U.S. official
Hospital patients and doctors paralyzed by fear
No military participation by Jordan
In the last day, the coalition has flown 175 sorties over Libya, official says
[----]

Tripoli, Libya (CNN) -- Despite five days of coalition airstrikes, troops loyal to Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi continued Wednesday to terrorize residents of the besieged rebel-held city of Misrata.

One witness said Gadhafi's forces had attacked the city's main hospital, where 400 people -- about half of them patients -- were located. The push began at 8 p.m. (2 p.m. ET), when "heavy tanks for Gadhafi troops start attacking the hospital -- the bombs falling here 20 meters (66 feet) around us," said one person inside the hospital. He said two deaths had occurred "around the hospital."

At one point, shelling occurred without respite for 40 minutes, he said. "Now, fortunately, no more shelling, but the situation is so serious that all the teams here -- the doctors, the patients -- are paralyzed, scared."

He called for international intervention to protect the civilians inside the institution. "Nobody can work here," he said. Ambulances were not able to leave the hospital, which had lost its electricity and was using generator power, he said.

During the last day, the international coalition has flown 175 sorties over Libya -- 113 of them by U.S. planes and the remainder from other nations participating in the U.N.-backed mission, U.S. Navy Rear Adm. Gerard Hueber told reporters Wednesday.

This is just a taste of what Ghaddafi would have done to Benghazi... I'm sorry, he's a monster beyond the norm... this is deranged behaviour that will turn his own people not just against him, but suicidally so. Who wouldn't die to protect their home from meaningless assault, or their wounded from shelling!?

There is a glimmer in the dark however...

http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/africa/03/23/us.gadhafi.inner.circle/index.html?hpt=T1

STORY HIGHLIGHTS
U.S. officials: Gadhafi's inner circle reaching out to other Arab states and U.S.
Officials say none of the contacts has indicated Gadhafi was ready to leave
"They are indeed reaching out, but it's not clear to what end," one official says
Gadhafi's brother-in-law has called the State Department almost daily, officials say

 

[nismaratwork]

Do we have any Syrian members who can shed some light on what's going on in Syria? It doesn't look like a revolt or call for Assad to go, just reform. I'm not so clear on my sources however, and I don't trust something like CNN for this.

 

[Proton Soup]

You're entitled to your view, and clear anger, but understand that I'm not moved. I really don't care if I'm a terrible person or not, I simply evaluate situations individually, not based on some dream. Your talk of appeasement and reference to WWII however, is unseemly. If you want to rant in response to my honest and personal appraisal, try those PM's you hate; it's far more appropriate for that. Here, you might want to stick to something less than a diatribe.

I believe that once you confine yourself to one side, you're doomed. You can support a side or outcome, but making it purely binary is to ignore complexity that is quite informative.

i'm not confined to one side. but i am vehemently opposed to the one-sided representation this gets in the US media. and i am appalled and sickened that my country and its treasury is being used to support some rather disgusting things. so yes, I'm going to ***** about it from time to time. i don't normally try to rant and shove it down peoples' throats, but i am going to bring up issues from time to time in addition to egypt, libya, bahrain, pakistan, etc.

i'm also not unrealistic. i don't expect or hope for a destruction of israel. i do think it is reasonable to get them to pull back to the 1967 borders, tho. a two-state solution is not unreasonable and it can work.

now, I'm sorry you're offended by my reference to appeasement, but I'm not going to take back what i said, either. because i think that is exactly what is going on. i still remember from years ago when the taking of the Golan Heights was justified because of it being strategic militarily. but it's obvious now that all the land taken in 67 will become settlements. and when, maybe even before, that land is filled, they will be looking to expand. already this year, the defense minister was making noise about invading lebanon. they need only create an excuse like they did in 2008. that, and I'm just tired and disgusted with the attitudes of some of these zealots. they're as crazy as some of these aryan skinheads. i can't ignore that. i can't ignore the hypocrisy that keeps being thrust at me.

and believe me, i do understand your points of view on some of these things. i have entertained some of the same thoughts, and probably much worse when push comes to shove. for instance, I'm not sure i could remain non-vigilante if some of the violent latino gangs were ever to make their way into my neck of the woods. but not on the basis on "nobody likes them". i suppose nobody likes the Kurds, either.

in any case, i will try to be a little less vehement.

 

[FizixFreak]

You're entitled to your view, and clear anger, but understand that I'm not moved. I really don't care if I'm a terrible person or not, I simply evaluate situations individually, not based on some dream. Your talk of appeasement and reference to WWII however, is unseemly. If you want to rant in response to my honest and personal appraisal, try those PM's you hate; it's far more appropriate for that. Here, you might want to stick to something less than a diatribe.

I believe that once you confine yourself to one side, you're doomed. You can support a side or outcome, but making it purely binary is to ignore complexity that is quite informative.

@FizixFreak: Israel is acting in a fairly monstrous fashion, and the Palestinians are doing the same. As you say, the people who have NO excuse are the Arab nations who make it almost impossible for a Palestinian to get so much as a work visa; to them this is just a distraction so they can steal more from their people. Why, if Israel were no longer an issue, people might notice their own dictators like Mubarak, Qaddafi, Assad... oh wait, they did!

I know you strongly disagree with my view Fizix, but I'm not going to lie to you or anyone else about it. I'm also not going to dress it up in a moral justification; I think you understand that the ME is not a gentle place at the level of governments (the people are great). You can't be soft in the ME and expect to survive, and with nations carved by the French, British, and sometimes the USA... well... it's amazing things have held this long.

I think that once this all settles down and the people have the governments they want (or something closer), Israel is going to actually be FORCED to change internal policy, or risk war. Yes, it's a war they'd probably win, but at what cost in the short and long term?

My point: No one is clean in this, no one is innocent, nobody is purely a victim or victimizer; it's a complex relationship of hatred, fear, frustration, and callous abuse by those in high office or the very rich.

@Char.Limit: I doubt that Iran is so far-sighted. After all, they have to know that Israel will strafe their metropolis before they allow a nuclear armed Iran. There's no talking to either nation, both have set themselves on a collision course.This is all a miserable state of affairs, but all the international community has done is drag this out endlessly for the sake of spice and silk, salt and gold, and now strategic positioning and oil. What should we expect form ALL sides of a conflict when one empire, secular, Islamic, Christian, other... all keep raiding the SAME places? Turkey can barely hold, and they had Ataturk... I see little hope for the future there. Above all, I'm disgusted by the behavior of Arab nations who claim the Palestinians as their brothers, but in practice reject them.

I'll never forget in Kuwait, the only Palestinians you saw (RARELY) were poor...POOR! In Kuwait! On work visas that had to be constantly renewed, because as one friend explained, "they are like mad dogs." What!? If that's how their brothers see them, how does anyone expect Israel to do anything except make that perception reality, and "win" that way?

Hell, look at Egypt, where the military just banned protests... almost as though they hadn't learned a lesson.

What will happen in Syria? What does that mean for Lebanon? Israel is an issue on all sides, pro, anti, and neutral, but it's not the immediate issue until these Arab and Persian thieving royal families get the boot from their own people. That gives a moral high-ground to the Arab and Persian nations, who given time will have forged a real government that can represent their interests.

I just wonder, one that happens, will they still PRETEND to care about the Palestinians?

Palestinian are doing the same?? please see these statistics before expressing your views

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/

Now that you have admitted that you are not looking for who is wrong or right who gives you the right to judge anyone's morality? i do understand your ideas and i can see that your method of approach is too "practical" so you don't look for good or evil that reminds me of the time when i saw a pack of hounds separating a little deer from its tribe and eating it while it was still alive they would obviously not think of what is right or wrong and who can blame them but if the humans commit such brutality would you still support them? i don't know how much younger or older you are from me but i can give you one peace of advice..., being too "practical" in your life might benefit you in a materialistic way but it will make a monster out of you some day...,but of course i don't think that you care about that you would rather turn into a monster than be on the harsh end of reality and for that i say well done

EDIT:Now i don't disagree with every thing you say ME is really not an easy position in such circumstances and things may be a lot complicated i agree but then again i don't see much complications on the side of Israel if they really want to live in peace with the Palestinians how hard would it be for them to stop bombing Palestine for no reason? how hard would it be to give them their rights? do they have any pressure on them to do so? is their public asking for this?(the public is actually against it) and it is really sad to know that the Palestinians are referred to as "mad dogs" by their own Arab brothers there really are no angels on any side but there are demons Specially the Arab leaders many Arab leaders actually declared Hezbollah as terrorist organization because of the Sunni-Shia conflict we will go in a circle as this argument goes on and in the end these Arab leaders would be the one to blame there but that would not justify the actions of Israel and their savagery i have no idea how have they devolved such hatred for the Palestinians.

By the way i am not being angry or emotional on this subject i have seen much worst opinions sadly when these opinions become practical we have these modern day conflict

As far as Iran is concern i disagree with you i think they are playing their cards right they may be a nuclear power but thanks to the USA Israel is ahead of them in fire power but they are really showing Israel the "finger" without sparking a direct conflict some thing even Israel would not want to have both the "parties" are keeping their guard up but and in case of a direct conflict despite the superior fire power Israel might not have a clear advantage(due to involvement of Hezbollah) unless of course "UNCLE SAM" steps in and why wouldn't they i know everything i am saying might be speculative but one thing is for sure no one wants to get in a war right now.

STORY HIGHLIGHTS
NEW: Coalition effort is not "a land invasion," according to U.S. official
Hospital patients and doctors paralyzed by fear
No military participation by Jordan
In the last day, the coalition has flown 175 sorties over Libya, official says
[----]

Tripoli, Libya (CNN) -- Despite five days of coalition airstrikes, troops loyal to Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi continued Wednesday to terrorize residents of the besieged rebel-held city of Misrata.

One witness said Gadhafi's forces had attacked the city's main hospital, where 400 people -- about half of them patients -- were located. The push began at 8 p.m. (2 p.m. ET), when "heavy tanks for Gadhafi troops start attacking the hospital -- the bombs falling here 20 meters (66 feet) around us," said one person inside the hospital. He said two deaths had occurred "around the hospital."

At one point, shelling occurred without respite for 40 minutes, he said. "Now, fortunately, no more shelling, but the situation is so serious that all the teams here -- the doctors, the patients -- are paralyzed, scared."

He called for international intervention to protect the civilians inside the institution. "Nobody can work here," he said. Ambulances were not able to leave the hospital, which had lost its electricity and was using generator power, he said.

During the last day, the international coalition has flown 175 sorties over Libya -- 113 of them by U.S. planes and the remainder from other nations participating in the U.N.-backed mission, U.S. Navy Rear Adm. Gerard Hueber told reporters Wednesday

My goodness! what the hell is wrong with this Qaddafi it seems like he wants to wipe out his own people completely before he goes down we Muslims should stop bashing the USA and ISRAEL for their policies because we have such MONSTERS on their own "side" the things this guy is doing is just beyond humanity no wonder their was a planned rebellion against this guy i hope he is punished by the hands of the Libyan public now that would be real justice.

 

[elabed haidar]

you people live in usa and the media there shows how hamas hezbollah and iran are bad if you guys live here and experince the war we faced with honor and dignity you should have know whos right and whos wrong and about the palestine people who invaded the other ? of course isreal came and invaded us so when we (hamas or hezbolaah) defend ourself we are terorist so please people you can't judge us by the media you see you have to be there to know how everyday isreal kills inocent women and babies thast our proof the only way to stop isreal is to fight them
PS i am a lebanese citizen that's why i know

 

[FizixFreak]

you people live in usa and the media there shows how hamas hezbollah and iran are bad if you guys live here and experince the war we faced with honor and dignity you should have know whos right and whos wrong and about the palestine people who invaded the other ? of course isreal came and invaded us so when we (hamas or hezbolaah) defend ourself we are terorist so please people you can't judge us by the media you see you have to be there to know how everyday isreal kills inocent women and babies thast our proof the only way to stop isreal is to fight them
PS i am a lebanese citizen that's why i know

اسلام علیکم والرحمتھ اللھ وبرکاتھ

I think i forgot my manners the first time for that i am sorry but any way since you live in Lebanon may you can tell how severe the Sunni-shia conflict is in the Arab world?

 

[WhoWee]

G-d, this is truly sick:

http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/africa/03/23/libya.war/index.html?hpt=T1

This is just a taste of what Ghaddafi would have done to Benghazi... I'm sorry, he's a monster beyond the norm... this is deranged behaviour that will turn his own people not just against him, but suicidally so. Who wouldn't die to protect their home from meaningless assault, or their wounded from shelling!?

There is a glimmer in the dark however...

http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/africa/03/23/us.gadhafi.inner.circle/index.html?hpt=T1

Has anyone found coverage of this event by Arab media - any contrasting views to post? Bombing the perimeter of a hospital is pure terrorism - IMO.

 

[nismaratwork]

Palestinian are doing the same?? please see these statistics before expressing your views

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/

Now that you have admitted that you are not looking for who is wrong or right who gives you the right to judge anyone's morality?

I have the right to judge, but not to be heard or to be right. As it happens, I tend to be a moral relativist. I realize that the Palestinians are being ghettoized and systematically destroyed, but I see them as a hopeless cause. Mind you, not hopeless as a people, but hopeless because they have NO real support, and their leaders have taken any money that might reach the people like mob bosses. If I judged everyone's morality, I wouldn't have Turkish friends, who still won't admit to killing 1 million Armenians. I wouldn't be able to talk to you, and appreciate your view either; I don't judge for the most part in the "big" issues.

It is monstrous to confine a people to a small stretch of land, to deny them freedom of movement, and to frankly treat them as less than human. It's also monstrous to ACT less than human, and blow up bus loads of civilians. Beyond that however, it's STUPID... it's not a win when these things happen, it's a loss for everyone. Who wins when some more homes are bulldozed after a bombing?... a very small section of Israeli and Palestinian leadership, and that's it. This is an asymmetric conflict, but that doesn't mean that the moral high ground goes to the underdogs, anymore than we can say the Mujahideen in Afghanistan who became Al Qaeda were moral. They fought against the Soviets with USA training and money, we weren't acting morally... nobody was. The outcome wasn't right or wrong, just predictable.

[i do understand your ideas and i can see that your method of approach is too "practical" so you don't look for good or evil that reminds me of the time when i saw a pack of hounds separating a little deer from its tribe and eating it while it was still alive they would obviously not think of what is right or wrong and who can blame them but if the humans commit such brutality would you still support them?

I would be in tears, in fact it gets me just thinking about this. Then, I have a love for animals that I do NOT have for humans... the dogs were acting according to their nature, the deer to its. Do I chase the dogs away and starve them, or do I let them kill the deer? Where is the right and wrong in that? "Nature, red in tooth and claw," is all I see, but at least humans have more of a CHOICE.

The reality is that humans choose to largely act just like those dogs and deer; we're not so different, just more talkative. This is where I know we can't agree, because someone who believes that humans are divine creation DOES believe in a difference.

My counterpoint: the dogs in this pack are EVERYONE except the Palestinians themselves. The ones not actively pulling them down, are on the sidelines barking, but that's all. If the choice is slow death, or a clean death... which is kinder? Not right, not wrong, just better.

[i don't know how much younger or older you are from me but i can give you one peace of advice..., being too "practical" in your life might benefit you in a materialistic way but it will make a monster out of you some day...,but of course i don't think that you care about that you would rather turn into a monster than be on the harsh end of reality and for that i say well done

I'm already a monster I'm sorry to say, but I do appreciate the advice and age doesn't matter. I just happen to be a well spoken monster that can articulate my views, but I don't think that spares me from harsh ends of reality. All I can say is that if I could change reality by magic, it would not be to kill either the Israelis or Palestinians; rather it would be for peace. I don't believe that's going to happen however; neither side has a real desire for peace, both sides want to WIN at the expense of the other. In a zero sum game, there are only winners and losers, and the trauma left in its wake. A dead deer, full bellies for some dogs, and someone like you watching and probably wishing that you'd never seen it.

EDIT:Now i don't disagree with every thing you say ME is really not an easy position in such circumstances and things may be a lot complicated i agree but then again i don't see much complications on the side of Israel if they really want to live in peace with the Palestinians how hard would it be for them to stop bombing Palestine for no reason? how hard would it be to give them their rights? do they have any pressure on them to do so? is their public asking for this?(the public is actually against it) and it is really sad to know that the Palestinians are referred to as "mad dogs" by their own Arab brothers there really are no angels on any side but there are demons Specially the Arab leaders many Arab leaders actually declared Hezbollah as terrorist organization because of the Sunni-Shia conflict we will go in a circle as this argument goes on and in the end these Arab leaders would be the one to blame there but that would not justify the actions of Israel and their savagery i have no idea how have they devolved such hatred for the Palestinians.

Bomb and rocket people enough, and they have to make choices consciously or not, so you have hatred for people who sow fear in an unpredictable fashion. This is just one massive blood feud, and the only winners will ever be the ones NOT participating; Israel loses, the Palestinians lose, and you can see the Arab autocrats ALREADY losing.

The Palestinians want to return to what they see as their homeland, an action that would make it theirs in truth. The Israelis will not allow that, and it seems at one point offered everything short of that. Then you have the concern of the Mullahs, Rabbis, and Cardinals; Jerusalem, and they just use both sides as props for their own "careers". Beyond that, the history of the ME is a history of conquest, a history of peace only during times when that conquest was so total that nobody nearby could or would fight. I see no change in these "modern" times, and no tendency to change. The causes change, the religions change, but nothing ever really changes in the ME.

By the way i am not being angry or emotional on this subject i have seen much worst opinions sadly when these opinions become practical we have these modern day conflict

I understand, and if you're angry I understand that as well. I suspect we have very different views, but probably share similar IDEALS; we both would prefer peace, I just believe it's impossible.

As far as Iran is concern i disagree with you i think they are playing their cards right they may be a nuclear power but thanks to the USA Israel is ahead of them in fire power but they are really showing Israel the "finger" without sparking a direct conflict some thing even Israel would not want to have both the "parties" are keeping their guard up but and in case of a direct conflict despite the superior fire power Israel might not have a clear advantage(due to involvement of Hezbollah) unless of course "UNCLE SAM" steps in and why wouldn't they i know everything i am saying might be speculative but one thing is for sure no one wants to get in a war right now.

Few sane people want war, but war is coming.

My goodness! what the hell is wrong with this Qaddafi it seems like he wants to wipe out his own people completely before he goes down we Muslims should stop bashing the USA and ISRAEL for their policies because we have such MONSTERS on their own "side" the things this guy is doing is just beyond humanity no wonder their was a planned rebellion against this guy i hope he is punished by the hands of the Libyan public now that would be real justice.

He wants to kill what he can't have, just like a bully on the playground, or anyone else like him. The only difference is that he has people to make that happen to some extent. He's different from Assad, Mubarak, Bin Ali and others... frankly he makes Hussein look sweet. I realize Hussein did worse, but given the same resources I think Qaddafi would make that look tame... can you imagine Qaddafi with weaponized Sarin?! With the kind of air power that Saddam had?! He'd have wiped out the people in the east before anyone could have fired a single cruise missile. He is a mad dog, and should be the example we compare other so called 'devils' to, Arab, Persian, Israeli, American, European.

We have some immoral and nasty people on all sides, but there are only a few monsters like Qaddafi, and they should be the proof that we have more in common than not.

One last thing: here is the gist (direction) of a conversation I had with 2 Kuwaiti friends, 3 Jewish friends, and one Palestinian friend:

1.)Jordan, Egypt, and other countries need to accept Palestinian immigrants, and the EU/USA should offer DIRECT support to make that feasible.
2.)Gaza needs to be de-ghettoized and the Palestinian people recognized as sovereign.
3.)Israel needs to be left the hell alone, no more bombings, no more rockets, no more Iran using these poor people as their tools. The "right of return" is a dead issue.
4.)Jerusalem is too important to many people (even if I miss the point), and should be a city-state like the Vatican, but run by Israel, the (new) Palestinian nation, and an EU representative for the Christian side.
5.)While Jerusalem will not change in terms of who lives there, it will no longer be an apple for ONE group, it will be a shared commodity to keep or destroy as a group.

That's what I think is possible, but unlikely, however it's my "dream". Mostly I don't deal in those, but it's my version of a practical fantasy.

 

[nismaratwork]

you people live in usa and the media there shows how hamas hezbollah and iran are bad if you guys live here and experince the war we faced with honor and dignity you should have know whos right and whos wrong and about the palestine people who invaded the other ? of course isreal came and invaded us so when we (hamas or hezbolaah) defend ourself we are terorist so please people you can't judge us by the media you see you have to be there to know how everyday isreal kills inocent women and babies thast our proof the only way to stop isreal is to fight them
PS i am a lebanese citizen that's why i know

I realize you may not want to even speak to me online, but do you have any insight into how Lebanon is reacting to the turmoil in Syria?

 

[alt]

My point: No one is clean in this, no one is innocent, nobody is purely a victim or victimizer; it's a complex relationship of hatred, fear, frustration, and callous abuse by those in high office or the very rich.

And that, particularly the underlined (by me) sums up the ME.

I'll never forget in Kuwait, the only Palestinians you saw (RARELY) were poor...POOR! In Kuwait! On work visas that had to be constantly renewed, because as one friend explained, "they are like mad dogs." What!? If that's how their brothers see them, how does anyone expect Israel to do anything except make that perception reality, and "win" that way?

You're striking some home truths here Nismar - uncomortable to some, but truth, nonetheless. I've experienced the same from Kuwait people, even here. Their opinion of Palesinians is very low .. but then, so is their opinion of everyone else.

 

[nismaratwork]

And that, particularly the underlined (by me) sums up the ME.



You're striking some home truths here Nismar - uncomortable to some, but truth, nonetheless. I've experienced the same from Kuwait people, even here. Their opinion of Palesinians is very low .. but then, so is their opinion of everyone else.

I don't know about the latter (I'm biased with the pals I have there), but damn if the former isn't the truth. I thought it would be different in Jordan, or Turkey... nope... I used to joke with a Sheikh/friend, "It's easier for camel to pass through the head of a pin than it is for a Palestinian to get a Visa in an Arab nation." Sad, but true given that I've never seen a "raving" Palestinian except on TV, in person... what a shock, they're people like any other.

"That until the philosophy which holds one race superior and another inferior is finally and permanently discredited and abandoned: That until there are no longer first-class and second class citizens of any nation; That until the color of a man's skin is of no more significance than the color of his eyes; That until the basic human rights are equally guaranteed to all without regard to race; That until that day, the dream of lasting peace and world citizenship and the rule of international morality will remain but a fleeting illusion, to be pursued but never attained and until the ignoble but unhappy regimes that hold our brothers in Angola, in Mozambique, and in South Africa in subhuman bondage have been toppled and destroyed; until bigotry and prejudice and malicious and inhuman self-interest have been replaced by understanding and tolerance and goodwill; until all Africans stand and speak as free human beings, equal in the eyes of the Almighty; until that day, the African continent shall not know peace. We Africans will fight if necessary and we know that we shall win as we are confident in the victory of good over evil" – English translation of 1968 Speech delivered to the United Nations

 

[DevilsAvocado]

... but then again i don't see much complications on the side of Israel if they really want to live in peace with the Palestinians how hard would it be for them to stop bombing Palestine for no reason?

You missed Hamas; they are right now firing rockets into Israel.

 

[nismaratwork]

You missed Hamas; they are right now firing rockets into Israel.

True, and it's not the first time. It's no good for the Palestinians either, but who could benefit from a distraction in that direction? Who's having internal issues and could use Israel as a scapegoat?

Iran.

Who owns and runs Hezbollah, and now controls most of Hamas?

Iran.

Who is protesting AGAINST this new violence?

The Palestinian leadership!

I'm really sick of seeing these people used by Arafat for power and money, used by Iran for power and position, used by Arab nations as a distraction while they brutalize their own people, and tired of people like Netanyahu (whom I've met and talked to) who is a soulless bastard. He's smart as hell, but his moral compass spins like a damned top. I'm tired of Israel being defined by the most militant groups on all sides, and not the majority of people who want a peaceful life.

 

[nismaratwork]

you people live in usa and the media there shows how hamas hezbollah and iran are bad if you guys live here and experince the war we faced with honor and dignity you should have know whos right and whos wrong and about the palestine people who invaded the other ? of course isreal came and invaded us so when we (hamas or hezbolaah) defend ourself we are terorist so please people you can't judge us by the media you see you have to be there to know how everyday isreal kills inocent women and babies thast our proof the only way to stop isreal is to fight them
PS i am a lebanese citizen that's why i know

Understand, it's one thing to say that an organization is corrupt, or "terrorist", revolutionary... whatever you choose to call it. It's another to say the PEOPLE are; I think Lebanon is in a terrible state, but that's not because the Lebanese people are somehow bad.

I will ask you this: where is the honor in training women and children to commit suicide (or if you prefer, martyr themselves), especially now when you see how Egypt and Tunisia have moved forward?

Honor is setting fire to yourself to spark a revolution, or to hold Tahrir Square while your own government tries to eliminate you. There's no honor in killing civilians, in lobbing katyusha rockets randomly over a border. There's no talking to people who are willing to do such things, and pointing to the other side's atrocities doesn't help. If you want honor and dignity, act with honor and dignity in the face of everything. If you can go to war and win, by all means do so, but you can't... so don't.

Honor is also cold comfort for orphaned children or the dead, and there is no honor in foreign control of your land... you should be more concerned with Iran via Syria into Lebanon than Israel over Palestine. When your own home is free, maybe you can spread that freedom.

 

[nismaratwork]

Well... Yemen is certainly going down the wrong road... their president is an idiot.


http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/world/2011/03/18/von.yemen.friday.clashes.yementv

You'd think Mubarak and Bin Ali would have been object lesson enough... maybe someone needs the full Mussolini treatment to drive the point home.

 

[FizixFreak]

You missed Hamas; they are right now firing rockets into Israel.

And you probably missed this

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/

You neglect everything what Israel has been doing and when there is a reaction to that you would notice that immediately a few days ago Israel wrecked houses in the occupied territory of Palestine but of course you must have missed it too

http://www.creative-i.info/?p=32231

Eight Palestinians were killed by Israel military firing but you missed that too

http://www.alarabiya.net/articles/2011/03/22/142510.html

PLEASE tell me if hamas if reacting to that would you consider it wrong?

 

[FizixFreak]

I have the right to judge, but not to be heard or to be right. As it happens, I tend to be a moral relativist. I realize that the Palestinians are being ghettoized and systematically destroyed, but I see them as a hopeless cause. Mind you, not hopeless as a people, but hopeless because they have NO real support, and their leaders have taken any money that might reach the people like mob bosses. If I judged everyone's morality, I wouldn't have Turkish friends, who still won't admit to killing 1 million Armenians. I wouldn't be able to talk to you, and appreciate your view either; I don't judge for the most part in the "big" issues.

It is monstrous to confine a people to a small stretch of land, to deny them freedom of movement, and to frankly treat them as less than human. It's also monstrous to ACT less than human, and blow up bus loads of civilians. Beyond that however, it's STUPID... it's not a win when these things happen, it's a loss for everyone. Who wins when some more homes are bulldozed after a bombing?... a very small section of Israeli and Palestinian leadership, and that's it. This is an asymmetric conflict, but that doesn't mean that the moral high ground goes to the underdogs, anymore than we can say the Mujahideen in Afghanistan who became Al Qaeda were moral. They fought against the Soviets with USA training and money, we weren't acting morally... nobody was. The outcome wasn't right or wrong, just predictable.
I would be in tears, in fact it gets me just thinking about this. Then, I have a love for animals that I do NOT have for humans... the dogs were acting according to their nature, the deer to its. Do I chase the dogs away and starve them, or do I let them kill the deer? Where is the right and wrong in that? "Nature, red in tooth and claw," is all I see, but at least humans have more of a CHOICE.

The reality is that humans choose to largely act just like those dogs and deer; we're not so different, just more talkative. This is where I know we can't agree, because someone who believes that humans are divine creation DOES believe in a difference.

My counterpoint: the dogs in this pack are EVERYONE except the Palestinians themselves. The ones not actively pulling them down, are on the sidelines barking, but that's all. If the choice is slow death, or a clean death... which is kinder? Not right, not wrong, just better.
I'm already a monster I'm sorry to say, but I do appreciate the advice and age doesn't matter. I just happen to be a well spoken monster that can articulate my views, but I don't think that spares me from harsh ends of reality. All I can say is that if I could change reality by magic, it would not be to kill either the Israelis or Palestinians; rather it would be for peace. I don't believe that's going to happen however; neither side has a real desire for peace, both sides want to WIN at the expense of the other. In a zero sum game, there are only winners and losers, and the trauma left in its wake. A dead deer, full bellies for some dogs, and someone like you watching and probably wishing that you'd never seen it.

Bomb and rocket people enough, and they have to make choices consciously or not, so you have hatred for people who sow fear in an unpredictable fashion. This is just one massive blood feud, and the only winners will ever be the ones NOT participating; Israel loses, the Palestinians lose, and you can see the Arab autocrats ALREADY losing.

The Palestinians want to return to what they see as their homeland, an action that would make it theirs in truth. The Israelis will not allow that, and it seems at one point offered everything short of that. Then you have the concern of the Mullahs, Rabbis, and Cardinals; Jerusalem, and they just use both sides as props for their own "careers". Beyond that, the history of the ME is a history of conquest, a history of peace only during times when that conquest was so total that nobody nearby could or would fight. I see no change in these "modern" times, and no tendency to change. The causes change, the religions change, but nothing ever really changes in the ME.
I understand, and if you're angry I understand that as well. I suspect we have very different views, but probably share similar IDEALS; we both would prefer peace, I just believe it's impossible.
Few sane people want war, but war is coming. He wants to kill what he can't have, just like a bully on the playground, or anyone else like him. The only difference is that he has people to make that happen to some extent. He's different from Assad, Mubarak, Bin Ali and others... frankly he makes Hussein look sweet. I realize Hussein did worse, but given the same resources I think Qaddafi would make that look tame... can you imagine Qaddafi with weaponized Sarin?! With the kind of air power that Saddam had?! He'd have wiped out the people in the east before anyone could have fired a single cruise missile. He is a mad dog, and should be the example we compare other so called 'devils' to, Arab, Persian, Israeli, American, European.

We have some immoral and nasty people on all sides, but there are only a few monsters like Qaddafi, and they should be the proof that we have more in common than not.

One last thing: here is the gist (direction) of a conversation I had with 2 Kuwaiti friends, 3 Jewish friends, and one Palestinian friend:

1.)Jordan, Egypt, and other countries need to accept Palestinian immigrants, and the EU/USA should offer DIRECT support to make that feasible.
2.)Gaza needs to be de-ghettoized and the Palestinian people recognized as sovereign.
3.)Israel needs to be left the hell alone, no more bombings, no more rockets, no more Iran using these poor people as their tools. The "right of return" is a dead issue.
4.)Jerusalem is too important to many people (even if I miss the point), and should be a city-state like the Vatican, but run by Israel, the (new) Palestinian nation, and an EU representative for the Christian side.
5.)While Jerusalem will not change in terms of who lives there, it will no longer be an apple for ONE group, it will be a shared commodity to keep or destroy as a group.

That's what I think is possible, but unlikely, however it's my "dream". Mostly I don't deal in those, but it's my version of a practical fantasy.

You are hopeless aren't you Nismar? i really don't see why you are calling yourself a monster may be this word is considered "cool" in USA or like i said before you are just probably trying to act like badass monsters never fantasize about peace by the way but if you still want to be called some thing like that then who can stop you

I always avoid getting into such hypothetical conversation but mostly find my self in one of such conversations...,if it was a conversation based on facts and statistics i would have no problem but arguing with you on this subject is like smashing my head in a wall your stance on this subject is beyond me you wish for peace and you admit that Israel is being a monster and then you say that you are with Israel and give really strange reasons for that i can tell you one thing that because of thinking like this one day your head will explode i am sorry that i am judging you like this but trust me i still respect you.

Coming back to the topic i have to say i agree with you peace really seems far fetched in these situations and as far as the war goes it has been going on for a long time not the war that i referred to before but some thing what the defense analysts call FOURTH GENERATION WARFARE this is what Israel is doing in Palestine American did in Vietnam and they are currently doing in Pakistan the difference is that this type of warfare lasts forever it ignites hatred and rage which in return causes more damage which prolongs the misery of the human race.

 

[nismaratwork]

http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2011/03/24/libya-live-blog-coalition-airstrikes-continue-in-tripoli/

C&C of the operation in Libya is being handed off to NATO.

@FixizFreak: Realpolitik: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Realpolitik

I would say that I have hopes, but that at the same time I recognize the likely outcomes. These conflicts are never one-sided, and we are talking about two groups who want to kill each other, to destroy the other as though they had never existed. History teaches that such conflicts tend to end when just that happens, or exhaustion sets in. I'm yet to see any signs of any group in the ME tiring of violence except rhetorically, the practice is violence. Palestinians kill Israelis, Israelis retaliate. Israelis bulldoze homes, Palestinians retaliate. So on, and So on, around and around.

Oh, and it is not cool to be called a monster in the USA, but as you can see from say, Proton's reaction, my views are generally held to be monstrous. I don't endorse killing of Palestinians, but I don't endorse supporting the inevitably losing side of a conflict. What are we to do, when so much religious and cultural hatred exists? How do you reason with people who think you bleed their children for the sabbath, or with people who think that it's OK to ghettoize a people?

There's no reason there, just blind hatred and old blood feuds. We all know how it ends; with killing... I'd rather save my hope for a cause that has a chance.


Now, here's a question: the two nations most poised to put a dent in the human population right now isn't the USA and any ME country, it's India and Pakistan. You have your country, which uses a nuclear deterrent so that if India were to invade, you could have a very brief window to nuke them, provoking a response in kind. You have the Line of Control, and so much of your resources fighting around Kashmir. Like it or not, I care more about the fate of India and Pakistan then I do about the fate of the Palestinians; a fate that is essentially written.

What of this generational warfare in your nation, and these events such as the relatively recent attacks in Mumbai? You have the USA funding and arming both of you, India AND Pakistan... you know that can't be good for you. I think Israel is not the worst thing happening in the region, not even close, but it gets a disproportionate amount of attention.

Yemen is a hell-hole, Syria is lovely, but don't speak out of turn or you're in hot water. Saudi Arabia is downright scary, and Iran and Afghanistan have gone from lush cosmopolitan countries to something out of the history books. Egypt is backsliding as we speak, and Tunisia is still rocked by transition. Bahrain and SA are crushing the Shia minority, and you have Iran trying to rule the region, even if they're not wanted.

Israel is a tiny slice of land in a vast ocean of violence, and ANCIENT feuds; different Adhann, different caliphs, different in small ways that add up to something LARGE. How is THAT going to change when Israel is the straw man that is used to keep populaces in line so they do not notice their leaders are rich, yet they are poor?

 

[DevilsAvocado]

You neglect everything what Israel has been doing

Absolutely not:

The rest of the world needs to take a clear stand against all aggression, no matter which part is guilty, and use all civil means available to isolate the Hawks and reward the Doves (they exist on both sides).

As I said before – the problem is that outsiders is taking a clear stand for one part, and completely ignore the other...

And with all due respect – your post was a 'minor example' of this – asking Israel to declare ("uncomplicated") peace at the same time as Hamas is sending rockets into their bedrooms doesn’t seem like a 'working solution'... does it?

you would notice that immediately a few days ago Israel wrecked houses in the occupied territory of Palestine but of course you must have missed it too

And a few days before that Hamas did something bad to the Israelis, and that’s why they did that bad thing you are talking about... and few days before that Israel did something really bad... and that’s why...

I think we all know this "never-ending story". The question is – Should we leave all human progress, and return to the very "Old Books" and let it be "Eye for an Eye"?? And if so – How long should this "medieval berserk operation" continue? Until everybody are dead on both sides?

Or, should we at least try to solve this in a modern civilized manner?

PLEASE tell me if hamas if reacting to that would you consider it wrong?

I understand your feelings, and if someone bombed my relatives I would most probably feel exactly the same thing, no question about that = "operation berserk".

But the question Hamas should ask themselves – Does it work? If not, is there any hope it will work in the future?

And the answerer is NO is both cases, a literally "dead end". IT DOES NOT WORK.

And I also think you should ask yourself (living on the outside) if you in your country prefer a "medieval society", where the law is "Eye for an Eye", and "Blood Feud" is practiced? Or do you prefer a modern civilized society with civilized laws?

Personally, I fully understand the "berserk feelings", but I also fully understand the immense complications of a "medieval system".

When it comes to Realpolitik, it is old German BS advocated by the old fart Otto von Bismarck, and implemented in the U.S by Richard Nixon.

It’s also known as "Power Politics", and is very 'simple' – the strong one wins everything.

That is NOT what I’m talking about.

And as you know more about this than me, maybe you could explain to me why Fatah does not have the same 'problems' with Israel as Hamas? And why are Hamas killing members of Fatah?

 

[DevilsAvocado]

... I used to joke with a Sheikh/friend

... and tired of people like Netanyahu (whom I've met and talked to) who is a soulless bastard. He's smart as hell, but his moral compass spins like a damned top.

It's time to stop the "storytelling". As soon as there is an incident in the world, a new global "close friend" of yours "pops" in and out of focus – and now you claim to have been "chitchatting" with the Prime Minister of Israel, Benjamin Netanyahu and you know him on a personal level? Please give me a break!

Sheikhs and Rabbis, traveling all over the world, close global friends in almost every country, living in Japan for over 6 month, speaking Japanese (and yet missing the obvious), an "expert" in everything from schizophrenia to nuclear plants and the forces involved in tsunamis – and you are 30 years old?

WHO do you expect to believe this BS?

 

[nismaratwork]

It's time to stop the "storytelling". As soon as there is an incident in the world, a new global "close friend" of yours "pops" in and out of focus – and now you claim to have been "chitchatting" with the Prime Minister of Israel, Benjamin Netanyahu and you know him on a personal level? Please give me a break!

Sheikhs and Rabbis, traveling all over the world, close global friends in almost every country, living in Japan for over 6 month, speaking Japanese (and yet missing the obvious), an "expert" in everything from schizophrenia to nuclear plants and the forces involved in tsunamis – and you are 30 years old?

WHO do you expect to believe this BS?

I'm PM'ing you in response to this, because I'm giving you personal details I'd rather not be spread. If you still think I'm lying after, feel free to say so again.

edit: Check your PM, you have all the information you need, and more. Feel free to apologize whenever you like.

Greg: You have my permission to verify my name with DA.

I would clarify, I've claimed no expertise, I've always said exactly what is true: I read a lot. Ask Lacy33.

To be blunt, I don't need to lie... if I could I wouldn't even be using this name...

...you signed off after calling me a liar, without giving me a chance to prove you wrong? You cannot imagine how absurdly pissed I am at you right now DA... I hope that it was worth it, instead of simply asking me for verification.

 

[Lacy33]

I'm PM'ing you in response to this, because I'm giving you personal details I'd rather not be spread. If you still think I'm lying after, feel free to say so again.

edit: Check your PM, you have all the information you need, and more. Feel free to apologize whenever you like.

Greg: You have my permission to verify my name with DA.

I would clarify, I've claimed no expertise, I've always said exactly what is true: I read a lot. Ask Lacy33.

To be blunt, I don't need to lie... if I could I wouldn't even be using this name...

...and you snot, you signed off after calling me a liar, without giving me a chance to prove you wrong? You cannot imagine how absurdly pissed I am at you right now DA... I hope that it was worth it, instead of simply asking me for verification.

Good grief! Knock it off you guys. It's true, some people have a lot of experience and know a lot. Like me for example, I'm smarter than all of you together. Now make nice. we're the "Bratty Bunch." We have to keep the act together. :!)

 

[Char. Limit]

It's time to stop the "storytelling". As soon as there is an incident in the world, a new global "close friend" of yours "pops" in and out of focus – and now you claim to have been "chitchatting" with the Prime Minister of Israel, Benjamin Netanyahu and you know him on a personal level? Please give me a break!

Sheikhs and Rabbis, traveling all over the world, close global friends in almost every country, living in Japan for over 6 month, speaking Japanese (and yet missing the obvious), an "expert" in everything from schizophrenia to nuclear plants and the forces involved in tsunamis – and you are 30 years old?

WHO do you expect to believe this BS?

You know, people in high places do have friends, and some of these friends might visit Physics Forums.

 

[rootX]

This thread has degraded far beyond even current standards.
nismaratwork, in reference to the PM, you shouldn't release your personal information so easily to anyone who discuss with IMHO.

 

[nismaratwork]

Thanks Char, but I'm not in any high place, just social and related to some who are. I've sent him a PM with enough information to verify who I am, my past, and how this could be. What he chooses to believe after that is his problem, although given the evidence... he'd have to be rather thick to not get it. DA is not that, even if it seems he's lost all sense of politeness and propriety.

Still... thank you Char.

 

[nismaratwork]

This thread has degraded far beyond even current standards.



nismaratwork, in reference to the PM, you shouldn't release your personal information so easily to anyone who discuss with IMHO.

Believe me, I regretted it moments after doing it, but what's done is done. I was... and am, extremely angry.

 

[alt]

You know, people in high places do have friends, and some of these friends might visit Physics Forums.

.. and even people in high places, I'll bet.

DA, you judged on assumptions rather than facts known to you. Not good. Before you attack anyone in the manner that you did, you need to be pretty sure of your facts.

And about closing this thread .. Nah ! .. That's the easy way out.

 

[alt]

I don't know about the latter (I'm biased with the pals I have there), but damn if the former isn't the truth. I thought it would be different in Jordan, or Turkey... nope... I used to joke with a Sheikh/friend, "It's easier for camel to pass through the head of a pin than it is for a Palestinian to get a Visa in an Arab nation." Sad, but true given that I've never seen a "raving" Palestinian except on TV, in person... what a shock, they're people like any other.

what a shock, they're people like any other.

I was quite struck by the absolute truth of this statement when I did the Jerusalem tour years ago. I expected evil Jews, mad Arabs, fanatical Christians ..

If there's one overwhelming impression I got concerning the lot of them (the ordinary people) is just how nice, civil and friendly they all were.

Poetry (again) I know, but Mathew Arnold said it well (from 'Dover Beach') ..

.. and we are here as on a darkling plain
caught in confused alarms of struggle or flight
where ignorant armies clash by night.