What Exactly Is Happening In the Arab/Persian World?

[mugaliens]

The situation as I see it is Mubarek says:

1. You're right, the gov't is corrupt

2. But I'm not part of it.

3. I will replace the government's leaders

4. But I'm not part of it, so I will not step down.

Sounds like a wannabe dictatorship with "Mubarek in Charge" to me.

I could say "screw it, they don't get the concept of democracy in the least, take 'em all out," but that would be so politically incorrect in these days and times.

I could also say something like: "LOOK, Mubarek! Do you think the rest of us throughout the entire world are fools? Gah! We're not. We follow your antics, along with half a dozen other either dictators or wannabe dictators each and every day, and to be quite honest with you, we're long past growing tired of your crap.

"Either grow up, very quick, far, and fast, or you'll loose the entire support of 93% of the enlightened Internet world in about, what? I don't know what it takes these days? Perhaps 1.2 days? Enough most of the 1.3 billion of us who're plugged in on the planet to log in, figure out what's going on, and make our 1.3 billion inputs, backed by massive tax/support/policy/SANCTION/contractual/political/international dollars?

I've had enough of this crap. I get it, as our world has long changed, even in the third word (been there, done that, and yes, there, too - the rest of all this Colorado cowpie is udder moo).

If he doesn't get that, I wave him a happy ending, as our world will pass him and his country a very swift bye.

No time for the "old days," and if that means resorting to terrorist attacks somewhere, it no longer matters who is attacking who or why, it'll all end in a "bye-bye," there will be little mess to clean up, and you and your kind will be well on the way to history. Not talking about Egypt per se', just about the terrorist attacks in general. If they're occurring in the desert, then leave the freakin' desert. Ignore international boundaries - focus on the oil infrastructures in which we invested billions to create.

Secure them. After all, that was our money. Little else matters, aside from helping to prevent genocie. We don't need to rescue entire countries from themselves just to protect a small field of oilwells.

 

[OmCheeto]

What we saw today is the writing on the wall.

The average Egyptian is out on the street calling for change, and this destroys the myth that this movement is by the elite or is just a virtual one on the internet.

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2010/04/20104344958153238.html"

11 May 2010

Tunisia was probably just the match that lit the powder keg.

 

[DevilsAvocado]

Secure them. After all, that was our money. Little else matters, aside from helping to prevent genocie. We don't need to rescue entire countries from themselves just to protect a small field of oilwells.

I must be missing something; I thought the brilliant Bush Era was over.

 

[DevilsAvocado]

This is on the tipping point to something real bad. The police forces are gone, looting and anarchy on the streets. The military does nothing. "Everyday people" are gathering guns and knives to protect their property.

Speculation: Mubarak ordered this "behavior" to scare the sh*t out of the large masses to make them beg for (brutal) "Mubarak Law & Order"...

 

[WhoWee]

I must be missing something; I thought the brilliant Bush Era was over.

The "Bush era" is over. This is CLEARLY "Obama's Era" in the Middle East.

 

[OmCheeto]

Interesting times indeed:

WikiLeaks: US supported Egypt pro-democracy activists
By MICHAEL OMER-MAN
01/29/2011 08:22

A 2008 diplomatic cable from the US Embassy in Cairo leaked by WikiLeaks on Friday shows another side to the United States' relationship with Egypt in recent years. The cable outlines how the State Department helped an Egyptian pro-democracy activist attend a "Youth Movements Summit" in New York and how the unnamed activist presented an "unwritten plan for democratic transition in 2011."

While the United States has received criticism for its support of Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak's regime in the face of anti-government protests, the newly released cable indicates that the US was also supporting his detractors. It notes State Department efforts to apply pressure on Egypt in order to have dissidents released from custody.

http://www.jpost.com/MiddleEast/Article.aspx?id=205706"

 

[DevilsAvocado]

The "Bush era" is over. This is CLEARLY "Obama's Era" in the Middle East.

You are too intelligent to make obvious "mistakes". I was not talking about "This" – I was talking about mugaliens 'statement'.

Furthermore, you are not the only intelligent person on this forum, and if you are trying to blame Obama for 30 years of tyranny and dictatorship in Egypt – I’m pretty sure people will laugh, out loud.

 

[Proton Soup]

From our western perspective - Biden seems to have mis-spoken? However, what if his comment was intended to point out there are worse examples of dictatorial control?

i think the deal with Biden is that, as VP, he is expendable politically. so what he has to do is take the morally indefensible position and protect our billions of dollars investment in military hardware to prop up a dictator that responds to US will. if the uprising fails and Mubarak (or an alternate for the old regime) stays in power, Biden's statements stand as support of our long-time ally. if the uprising succeeds and true democratic reforms happen, Biden can be written off as that screwball underling that is always putting his foot in his mouth.

you are also seeing careful language from the white house press secretary. because however this turns out, you've got to try and appear as if you were always on their side.

 

[DevilsAvocado]

Proton Soup, very good analysis!


(... one of those intelligent people I was talking about ...)

 

[WhoWee]

You are too intelligent to make obvious "mistakes". I was not talking about "This" – I was talking about mugaliens 'statement'.

Furthermore, you are not the only intelligent person on this forum, and if you are trying to blame Obama for 30 years of tyranny and dictatorship in Egypt – I’m pretty sure people will laugh, out loud.

No, President Obama has traveled throughout the Arab world giving speeches over the past 2 years. He was very clear in his support of the people of Egypt - not Mubarak. The question the people of Egypt must have at this point is what action does President Obama support? Everything Obama says or does in the next 48 hours is critical - he needs to be very clear. Nobody should be speaking on his behalf without his explicit approval.

 

[Char. Limit]

Interesting times indeed:

Well well well, Wikileaks embarrasses the US once again. I suppose that the releasing of this cable is a "terrorist act" and "treason"...

But that's beside the point. The main point here is, the US was and IS trying to play both sides of the fence. Thing is, I don't know if the Egyptian people will like that.

 

[OmCheeto]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RR1n_7GN2vw

Consent, not coercion.

 

[OmCheeto]

Well well well, Wikileaks embarrasses the US once again. I suppose that the releasing of this cable is a "terrorist act" and "treason"...

But that's beside the point. The main point here is, the US was and IS trying to play both sides of the fence. Thing is, I don't know if the Egyptian people will like that.

Ha ha!

No one likes being the pawn.

But as Astro pointed out, discontent has been growing for decades.

btw, did you read the wikileak? my sister has been facebooking me about some anti-corruption newly elected representative from NYC and I've hopelessly swamped myself with a myriad of "Who's doing what?" kind of questions.

 

[PhilKravitz]

facebook post from a friend in Egypt

_____ no place for disappointment. the only way is forward and thru Mobarak. Let the world know that we don't want him. It would have been nice if he left yesterday. But remember Ben Ali did the same and we will do the same as Tunisians. The toll might be higher but the blood of the martyrs will not be wasted.

 

[nismaratwork]

facebook post from a friend in Egypt

_____ no place for disappointment. the only way is forward and thru Mobarak. Let the world know that we don't want him. It would have been nice if he left yesterday. But remember Ben Ali did the same and we will do the same as Tunisians. The toll might be higher but the blood of the martyrs will not be wasted.

That seems to agree with everything we're seeing. The only tests left are:

Will the army open fire (not warning shots or confusion) on their own people, and how will the people react if they do? In Egypt, the army and the people are intermingled HUGELY... for the soldiers, it would possibly be family vs. family... for an 82 year old man? I don't think so, but if a mistake is made, once the shooting STARTS... I have no doubt any trained soldiers will get into those tanks and start shooting rather than wait to be firebombed or dragged away.

 

[WhoWee]

facebook post from a friend in Egypt

_____ no place for disappointment. the only way is forward and thru Mobarak. Let the world know that we don't want him. It would have been nice if he left yesterday. But remember Ben Ali did the same and we will do the same as Tunisians. The toll might be higher but the blood of the martyrs will not be wasted.

Assuming Mubarak leaving is a certainty, what type of political outcome is your friend predicting?

 

[nismaratwork]

Assuming Mubarak leaving is a certainty, what type of political outcome is your friend predicting?

PF should give cash prizes for asking key questions... not many saw Khomeini coming...

 

[Char. Limit]

Interesting document http://wikileaks.ca/cable/2008/12/08CAIRO2572.html... so the US has been on both sides for the past few years at least.

 

[DevilsAvocado]

Nobody should be speaking on his behalf without his explicit approval.

But isn’t this exactly what you are doing?

He was very clear in his support of the people of Egypt – not Mubarak.

Was he? Could you be more specific?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RR1n_7GN2vw

No, President Obama has traveled throughout the Arab world giving speeches over the past 2 years.

You have a very 'interesting' way of arguing. First you say No, and then you say Yes – indirectly.

Nevertheless, it becomes somewhat 'humorous' when you drop "Fox Lies" like this – because it’s childishly simple to refute, all you have to do is to return to reality:

• In April 2009, Obama gave a speech in Ankara, Turkey.
  
  
• On June 4, 2009, Obama delivered a speech at Cairo University in Egypt calling for "A New Beginning" in relations between the Islamic world and the United States and promoting Middle East peace.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_New_Beginning

A New Beginning

White House Press Secretary Robert Gibbs indicated that Egypt was chosen because "it is a country that in many ways represents the heart of the Arab world."[2] Egypt is considered a key player in the Middle East peace process as well as a major recipient of American military and economic aid. Reuters reporter Ross Colvin reported that the speech would attempt to mend the United States' relations with the Muslim world, which he wrote were "severely damaged" during the presidency of George W. Bush.

...

Israeli Defense Minister Ehud Barak said the speech was "direct, significant and brave appeal in which President Obama elucidated his vision and important universal principles, which he wishes to share with the Muslim world". Israeli President Shimon Peres said the speech was "full of vision, a brave speech demanding a commitment to hard work on all sides involved in the promotion of the peace process in the Middle East...The idea of peace was born in the Middle East as the basis of the three monotheistic religions – Christianity, Judaism and Islam – and the sons of Abraham must join hands in order to take on this challenge together, a sustainable peace in the Middle East."


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6BlqLwCKkeY

Unless you can back up your statement that President Obama has been on an "Arabic crusade" for the last 2 years, with proof and direct links (you know the 'stuff' you crave from others), it would be wise to withdraw this kind of disinformation.

 

[PhilKravitz]

Assuming Mubarak leaving is a certainty, what type of political outcome is your friend predicting?

It seems all based on hope with no planning and no social structures in place to sustain change. I have asked them this same question.

The only in place social structure that could sustain a change is Islam. But I do not hear any Egyptian Islamic religious leaders saying anything.

 

[WhoWee]

But isn’t this exactly what you are doing?



Was he? Could you be more specific?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RR1n_7GN2vw



You have a very 'interesting' way of arguing. First you say No, and then you say Yes – indirectly.

Nevertheless, it becomes somewhat 'humorous' when you drop "Fox Lies" like this – because it’s childishly simple to refute, all you have to do is to return to reality:

• In April 2009, Obama gave a speech in Ankara, Turkey.
  
  
• On June 4, 2009, Obama delivered a speech at Cairo University in Egypt calling for "A New Beginning" in relations between the Islamic world and the United States and promoting Middle East peace.

Unless you can back up your statement that President Obama has been on an "Arabic crusade" for the last 2 years, with proof and direct links (you know the 'stuff' you crave from others), it would be wise to withdraw this kind of disinformation.

I didn't realize I was a spokesman for the Preident. I was thinking more of people like PJ Crowley posting on Twitter.

As for "Fox lies" - what are you talking about?

As for supporting the fact that Obama has been giving speeches in the Arab world - you've done a good job of supporting my statement.

As for you assertion "that President Obama has been on an "Arabic crusade" for the last 2 years" - when did I post those words?

Last, have you listened to the Presidents words in your link? He clearly stood on the side of the people in the streets.

If you want to challenge me on something I actually posted (verbatim) - not your re-write - I'll be glad to respond further.

 

[PhilKravitz]

Since Obama unconditionally supports Israel it is hard to see how he can interact with Arabs or Islam in any way other than war against them.

 

[DevilsAvocado]

As for you assertion "that President Obama has been on an "Arabic crusade" for the last 2 years" - when did I post those words?

In need of new glasses?

No, President Obama has traveled throughout the Arab world giving speeches over the past 2 years.

emphasis mine, to assist

Last, have you listened to the Presidents words in your link? He clearly stood on the side of the people in the streets.

You’re alone on PF, and among most global news channels, in making this interpretation. Could you please quote the exact words from the Presidents where he clearly states he’s against Mubarak, and endorsing the people in the streets to continue the violence?

 

[DevilsAvocado]

The only in place social structure that could sustain a change is Islam. But I do not hear any Egyptian Islamic religious leaders saying anything.

Isn’t that because neither they understands what is happening? And currently they only have 25% support?

This is the young people uprising, 32% of the population in Egypt is under 15 year old, the average age is 23 year. My wild guess is that these "kids" are fed up with military dictators, and totalitarian ayatollahs is maybe not the first thing they dream about, when/if they get their freedom.

Probably they are much more interested in Internet, Facebook, YouTube, cell phones, etc ...


... I hope ...

 

[PhilKravitz]

totalitarian ayatollahs

Egypt has a multi-religion society that exists in peace. It is Saudi Arabia that has totalitarian ayatollahs.

When do we call for regime change in Saudi Arabia?

 

[WhoWee]

In need of new glasses?

emphasis mine, to assist



You’re alone on PF, and among most global news channels, in making this interpretation. Could you please quote the exact words from the Presidents where he clearly states he’s against Mubarak, and endorsing the people in the streets to continue the violence?

I MUST need new glasses?

These words (my words):
"Originally Posted by WhoWee
No, President Obama has traveled throughout the Arab world giving speeches over the past 2 years. "

Are not the same as these words (your post):(my bold)
""that President Obama has been on an "Arabic crusade" for the last 2 years""

Apparently you enjoy changing my words - then challenging me to defend your changes?
Here's another:
I said: "He was very clear in his support of the people of Egypt - not Mubarak. The question the people of Egypt must have at this point is what action does President Obama support? Everything Obama says or does in the next 48 hours is critical - he needs to be very clear. Nobody should be speaking on his behalf without his explicit approval. "

And you claim I said:(my bold)
"Could you please quote the exact words from the Presidents where he clearly states he’s against Mubarak, and endorsing the people in the streets to continue the violence? "

Do you see the difference in what I actually posted and the words you want me to defend?

 

[DevilsAvocado]

One man's violence is another man's fight for freedom.

George Washington killed many people.

I understand what you are saying, at the same time – I truly hope no one 'wish' for people getting killed, right?

I do want the people of Egypt to get their freedom, absolutely no doubt about that.

Personally, and I must stress this very clear – this is MY 'cultural view' on the problem – I would be very sad if all this struggle only result in a "religious pseudo democracy". As far I understand, there is no reason to have more than one party in an Islamic state, right?

What have they gained then??

 

[DevilsAvocado]

Egypt has a multi-religion society that exists in peace. It is Saudi Arabia that has totalitarian ayatollahs.

When do we call for regime change in Saudi Arabia?

Personally my hope is that all oppressed people on the globe will get true freedom, including all totalitarian ayatollahs regimes.


(My personal "nutty prophesy" is that internet, in maybe not that far future, going to make this happen more frequently. It’s impossible to stop young people from getting "outside information" and realize that maybe something is 'wrong' ... and then you get "Tunisia/Egypt protests" ... and then ...)

 

[WhoWee]

You’re alone on PF, and among most global news channels, in making this interpretation. Could you please quote the exact words from the Presidents where he clearly states he’s against Mubarak, and endorsing the people in the streets to continue the violence?

Keeping in mind you misquoted me...
I actually said "He was very clear in his support of the people of Egypt - not Mubarak. The question the people of Egypt must have at this point is what action does President Obama support? Everything Obama says or does in the next 48 hours is critical - he needs to be very clear. Nobody should be speaking on his behalf without his explicit approval. "

This is what the President actually said:(My Bold)
http://www.shallownation.com/2011/0...t-jan-28-2011-statement-on-protests-in-egypt/

"THE PRESIDENT: Good evening, everybody. My administration has been closely monitoring the situation in Egypt, and I know that we will be learning more tomorrow when day breaks. As the situation continues to unfold, our first concern is preventing injury or loss of life. So I want to be very clear in calling upon the Egyptian authorities to refrain from any violence against peaceful protestors.

The people of Egypt have rights that are universal. That includes the right to peaceful assembly and association, the right to free speech, and the ability to determine their own destiny. These are human rights. And the United States will stand up for them everywhere.

I also call upon the Egyptian government to reverse the actions that they’ve taken to interfere with access to the Internet, to cell phone service and to social networks that do so much to connect people in the 21st century.

At the same time, those protesting in the streets have a responsibility to express themselves peacefully. Violence and destruction will not lead to the reforms that they seek.

Now, going forward, this moment of volatility has to be turned into a moment of promise. The United States has a close partnership with Egypt and we’ve cooperated on many issues, including working together to advance a more peaceful region. But we’ve also been clear that there must be reform — political, social, and economic reforms that meet the aspirations of the Egyptian people.

In the absence of these reforms, grievances have built up over time. When President Mubarak addressed the Egyptian people tonight, he pledged a better democracy and greater economic opportunity. I just spoke to him after his speech and I told him he has a responsibility to give meaning to those words, to take concrete steps and actions that deliver on that promise.

Violence will not address the grievances of the Egyptian people. And suppressing ideas never succeeds in making them go away. What’s needed right now are concrete steps that advance the rights of the Egyptian people: a meaningful dialogue between the government and its citizens, and a path of political change that leads to a future of greater freedom and greater opportunity and justice for the Egyptian people."

I've changed my glasses - wanted to make sure I was reading this correctly - and it appears to me that "He was very clear in his support of the people of Egypt - not Mubarak."

Are you certain that I am really alone on PF with this conclusion?

 

[DevilsAvocado]

Do you see the difference

No, and my glasses are new.

There’s no use in continuing this. I’m pretty sure the PF users can make their own opinion on what is and what isn’t.

 

[WhoWee]

No, and my glasses are new.

There’s no use in continuing this. I’m pretty sure the PF users can make their own opinion on what is and what isn’t.

I agree.

 

[DevilsAvocado]

Are you certain that I am really alone on PF with this conclusion?

Yup.

 

[Proton Soup]

Since Obama unconditionally supports Israel it is hard to see how he can interact with Arabs or Islam in any way other than war against them.

that's debatable. a huge section of the jewish community is not very unhappy with obama at the moment, because he has not been as unconditional as they would like.

 

[PhilKravitz]

Well at least VP Biden and sec' of state Clinton are unconditionally supporting Israel. We will see how far Obama will stray.

 

[Proton Soup]

Well at least VP Biden and sec' of state Clinton are unconditionally supporting Israel. We will see how far Obama will stray.

this is silly. why should we give them or anyone else everything they want?

and I'm not exactly sure how you wish to tie this into the current situation in egypt. do you think a free and democratic egypt is a threat to israel and that we ought to support a dictatorship to unconditionally show loyalty to israel?