What is the reality of finding a perfect partner?

[Moonbear]

I thought you were going to say that the more beer, the better the guy looks.

Well, that too, but I'd have to already think he was pretty good looking if he got me to agree to watch a game with him.

 

[Astronuc]

. . . then the anger that he had been unexpectedly left alone with the baby for two hours . . .

I read this, and I still find it unbelievable! And it breaks my heart.

My daughter was born during the last few months of grad school, so I adjusted my schedule around my wife and daughter. My wife expressed breast milk so that I could give my daughter (and 3 years later with my son) breast milk while she either went to work (during the week) or went shopping on the weekends.

When my daughter experienced jaundice during the second week after birth, we had to keep her under a bili-light. Someone had to watch her constantly. During the day, my wife was home and watched over her. I pulled all-nighters (grading homework and tests) to watch over her at night, and then went to school during the day. I slept for a few hours in the evening between the time I got home and the time my wife went to bed.

 

[quantumcarl]

What makes you think the man's biggest problem will be watching his wife raise the kids?

What makes you think that's my concern. I mentioned tolerance and patience and people take these words to hold a negative connotation.

I mean tolerance as in the ability to cope with no sleep, no hangin wit da homeboys... escaping to work to pay for the 70 diapers a week that you get to change maybe 30 of if you and your wife are lucky.

There's the sweet potatos, the oatmeal being spat all over you and the worries that the kid isn't eating...or is eating too much... has swallowed a bottle cap or will never learn to walk or talk. These are the details men are only able to catch romantic little glimpses of... while the wife/lover/cheerleader/captured french princess is now a full time mother... totally utilitarian to the offspring. Not much else.

The new mother loses perspective, in many cases, and doesn't see the romance in child bearing after awhile... and, if you thought she screamed in delivery, wait til you arrive late with the diaper's, dinner and the relief you represent to her as the "other half" of the parenting team.

Meanwhile, is the man readjusting his bowels after birth? Is his stomache slowly claiming back a former glory after being stretched to the size of a beach ball? No. Are his hormones so out of whack they show up on radar? No.

The man is in a position where he can choose to remain calm, no matter what little **** is going on or how he feels about losing some time with the homies or getting poopy on his shirt. He holds the advantage here and has a responsibilty to maintain a level atmosphere in the home for his child and his spouse.

The day my 11 month-old took a dump that squished out of the diaper and down my leg (I didn't feel it because it was the same temp. as me) into my shoe... is the day I realized fatherhood was not about reacting... its about supporting and appreciating what all this is teaching you about yourself... and life in general.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

What makes you think that's my concern. I mentioned tolerance and patience and people take these words to hold a negative connotation.
I mean tolerance as in the ability to cope with no sleep, no hangin wit da homeboys... escaping to work to pay for the 70 diapers a week that you get to change maybe 30 of if you and your wife are lucky.
There's the sweet potatos, the oatmeal being spat all over you and the worries that the kid isn't eating...or is eating too much... has swallowed a bottle cap or will never learn to walk or talk. These are the details men are only able to catch romantic little glimpses of... while the wife/lover/cheerleader/captured french princess is now a full time mother... totally utilitarian to the offspring. Not much else.
The new mother loses perspective, in many cases, and doesn't see the romance in child bearing after awhile... and, if you thought she screamed in delivery, wait til you arrive late with the diaper's, dinner and the relief you represent to her as the "other half" of the parenting team.
Meanwhile, is the man readjusting his bowels after birth? Is his stomache slowly claiming back a former glory after being stretched to the size of a beach ball? No. Are his hormones so out of whack they show up on radar? No.
The man is in a position where he can choose to remain calm, no matter what little **** is going on or how he feels about losing some time with the homies or getting poopy on his shirt. He holds the advantage here and has a responsibilty to maintain a level atmosphere in the home for his child and his spouse.
The day my 11 month-old took a dump that squished out of the diaper and down my leg (I didn't feel it because it was the same temp. as me) into my shoe... is the day I realized fatherhood was not about reacting... its about supporting and appreciating what all this is teaching you about yourself... and life in general.

The woman is taking care of a new born infant and the husband (if he's worth his weight) is taking care of both a new born infant and a recovering wife.

 

[loseyourname]

Of course I don't think the same thing is wrong with all of them. That's just my way of saying that I'm sad and frustrated because I'd like to not be alone for the rest of my life, but I don't know what to do about it.

(Men and women,) What would you expect your spouse-type partner person to give up in order to have a happy relationship with you?

If you're seriously looking to get involved with someone, you might want to start by giving up that thing about not being in a relationship for 8 years or whatever it was. Loneliness might be expected when you purposely isolate yourself.

 

[Mk]

Whoa, when did loseryourname become a mentor?? Awesome.

 

[honestrosewater]

If you're seriously looking to get involved with someone, you might want to start by giving up that thing about not being in a relationship for 8 years or whatever it was. Loneliness might be expected when you purposely isolate yourself.

Done. Though I'm not looking to get involved with anyone in particular.

I started a reply to earlier comments, but I'm not in a condition to finish it.

 

[honestrosewater]

Are you letting it be known that you're looking? (how would one go about doing that anyways -- I mean to let it be known you're looking, as opposed to being interested in anyone in particular -- I mean for people who don't go to bars)

I actually haven't been "looking". I was just looking ahead. Right now, I don't want any kind of relationship other than a friendship. Or rather, I already classify all (voluntary) relationships as friendships, as based on (or having as their goal) utility, pleasure, or character. (If anyone recognizes Aristotle in any of this, it's not a coincidence; I do tend to agree with and turn to him more than I agree with and turn to others, and if you know him, you probably know something about me too.) The "best" type is based on character, where you recognize the other as a good person and want to make them happy and help them develop as a person for their own good, and so on... it's pretty predictable stuff, I think. I think sex is what causes most of the problems. Perhaps it's that people, in general or perhaps only in my experience, don't question assumptions about sex enough. That I avoided even mentioning anything much about sex until now just futher convinces me of that, since I'm normally pretty much completely open and unabashed when it comes to anything regarding sex -- and I love questioning implicit assumptions. I don't know. Maybe I shouldn't talk about it. Does it make people uncomfortable? Does anyone think it's inappropriate to discuss in public? Why?

Anywho, I don't like or go to bars either. I guess narrowing things down would help... would the person you might want a relationship with have any special properties? If so, would those properties make them tend to frequent certain places? If so, go to those places and get the message out. I don't know though... makes sense to me, but I don't really have any experience there yet. Men (or boys, really) were always just around before.

I must admit that after this thread, you suddenly seem cute. I had simply never thought anything about it before. I imagine "real-life" effects would be similar.

Yeah, maybe. I don't know if I fit anyone's expectations. I think you're cute too though. Why do I seem cute? Anything in particular that you're aware of?

Um, that wasn't all aimed at you either. Hm. I guess I'm not very good at explaining or talking about this stuff yet. Um, yeah. I don't know anything.

 

[Mk]

I'm cute. You know it.

Penguino is cute. Ha, I crack myself up.

 

[Astronuc]

I actually haven't been "looking". I was just looking ahead. Right now, I don't want any kind of relationship other than a friendship. Or rather, I already classify all (voluntary) relationships as friendships, as based on (or having as their goal) utility, pleasure, or character. (If anyone recognizes Aristotle in any of this, it's not a coincidence; I do tend to agree with and turn to him more than I agree with and turn to others, and if you know him, you probably know something about me too.) The "best" type is based on character, where you recognize the other as a good person and want to make them happy and help them develop as a person for their own good, and so on... it's pretty predictable stuff, I think. I think sex is what causes most of the problems. Perhaps it's that people, in general or perhaps only in my experience, don't question assumptions about sex enough. That I avoided even mentioning anything much about sex until now just futher convinces me of that, since I'm normally pretty much completely open and unabashed when it comes to anything regarding sex -- and I love questioning implicit assumptions. I don't know. Maybe I shouldn't talk about it. Does it make people uncomfortable? Does anyone think it's inappropriate to discuss in public? Why?

As for friendship. My wife and I started out as friends among a larger group of friends. Our forum was the house of mutual friends who were living together. We used to get together for dinners or parties on a Friday or during the weekend (I was living about 90 miles away). Various members of the group were musicians, so we often sat around listening to music. However, all folks were in university or had graduated, and the group would get involved in discussions, much like the ones seen throughout PF - GD, P&WA, and various matters on science.

My wife, at the time a divorcee who had returned to finish university, and I would get into some interesting discussions (I was studying nuclear engineering and she was anti-nuclear), and gradually she and I would separate from the group and just talk - for hours. I usually helped in the kitchen with cooking and then washing dishes and cleaning after dinner. So my wife would join me in the kitchen and we both worked together - and talk.

We started dating - and the communication continued. Three months after we started dating, I proposed and she accepted. Since I was still living 90 miles from where she was living, we could only see each other on weekends and holidays/school breaks, and we more or less lived together (as much we could) while we were engaged, and finishing school. We got married about two weeks after we graduated, and then we went to graduate school together.

There is usually a certain sensitivity when discussing initimacy in public. Sexual intimacy should not be a 'problem' IF the couple involved communicates. Communication is the key in any relationship. Lack of communication is probably the root cause of most problems in a relationship.

would the person you might want a relationship with have any special properties? If so, would those properties make them tend to frequent certain places? If so, go to those places and get the message out. I don't know though... makes sense to me, but I don't really have any experience there yet.

As for special properties - I needed a woman with whom I could share my thoughts and who would be my best friend. Obviously, we had to share certain goals and expectations, e.g. career and family. I guess I was very lucky and I found the right woman. Keep in mind, it has not been perfect. We have had ups and downs - but - we have stayed together and worked things through.

Men (or boys, really) were always just around before.

And they always will be.

I don't know if I fit anyone's expectations. Why do I seem cute? Anything in particular that you're aware of?

I think you probably do fit some men's expectations or hopes or dreams. HRW - your questions, comments and sense of humor are endearing.

If I was unmarried at this point in my life, I would probably being looking on PF for a woman (actually I know I would) based on the level of thoughtfulness and intelligence expressed by many women here (particluarly the sisters). My age would limit my selection.

Um, that wasn't all aimed at you either. Hm. I guess I'm not very good at explaining or talking about this stuff yet. Um, yeah. I don't know anything.

That's cute, and your postings indicate that you know many things.

 

[honestrosewater]

Congrats to you and your family, Astronuc. That sounds great.

Yeah, I guess communication might just sum things up the best. Most of my concerns are about people just not being upfront and not saying what's on their mind (sex is maybe just the thing that a lot of people seem to have the hardest time talking about). So I guess my advice to anyone who cares will be to not assume anything; if they want to know, just ask. I won't bite (without their permission). Sound good?

 

[Hurkyl]

I think you're cute too though. ... Um, that wasn't all aimed at you either.

(Ok, I figured out what you meant, but still! *sniff*)

Why do I seem cute? Anything in particular that you're aware of?

*shrug* I don't really know. It's not always easy to tell! Figuring out who's cute is my subconscious's job!

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

I would say that the entire PF Sisterhood which includes honestrosewater display a certain charm, playfulness and a nice witty humor that personally I find attractive. I also think a dash of insecurity/doubt makes ppl seem a little more real and in your case cute.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

I also think a dash of insecurity/doubt makes ppl seem a little more real and in your case cute.

I agree. I sometimes get a little irritated with women though when they are down on themselves. Mostly when I compliment them and they blow it off like I don't really mean it or they don't think they deserve it. But then I see women that think they are god's gift and I realize that I definitely do not want a woman like that.

 

[Hurkyl]

I would say that the entire PF Sisterhood which includes honestrosewater display a certain charm, playfulness and a nice witty humor that personally I find attractive. I also think a dash of insecurity/doubt makes ppl seem a little more real and in your case cute.

Well, for me, it's nowhere near so clear cut. Sure, Monique is absolutely adorable! But I don't find, say, Evo attractive nor cute. (No offense!) And Gale is cute, I suppose, but I don't find her attractive.

And I don't think I ever considered honestrosewater cute & attractive until after this thread.

 

[Gale]

gosh hurkyl I'm flattered... I'm not in the sisterhood though, i think there's an age limit that I'm not old enough for.. speaking which I'm a bit young for you anyway heh.

 

[Hurkyl]

speaking which I'm a bit young for you anyway heh.

Which is probably why there isn't any attraction.

(I used you, Evo, and Monique as examples, because you three are the only girls on here that sprung to mind at the time)

 

[Moonbear]

(I used you, Evo, and Monique as examples, because you three are the only girls on here that sprung to mind at the time)

You don't find Evo cute or attractive, but you don't even think of me. It's probably an age thing too...if you know someone is closer to your age, they're probably more appealing than someone much older or younger, who just wouldn't be on your radar for being a potential date.

Well, since you're giving honest opinions, I guess I could be better off left out of your list of examples.

 

[Evo]

Well, for me, it's nowhere near so clear cut. Sure, Monique is absolutely adorable! But I don't find, say, Evo attractive nor cute. (No offense!)

Yeah, I've noticed you've always been mean to me, what's with that? I always liked your Alfred E Newman avatar.

 

[Hurkyl]

Well, since you're giving honest opinions, I guess I could be better off left out of your list of examples.

Yours was the next name I thought of -- but I already had one example of each type I wanted!

Yeah, I've noticed you've always been mean to me, what's with that?

I thought I was mean to everyone (except Monique)!

I always liked your Alfred E Newman avatar.

Is that him? Doesn't quite look like it. I picked it because it looks how I feel after some of the threads I get involved in!

 

[Evo]

Is that him? Doesn't quite look like it. I picked it because it looks how I feel after some of the threads I get involved in!

You forgot your old avatar? You lost it during one of the upgrades, it was the one before this one.

 

[Moonbear]

Yours was the next name I thought of -- but I already had one example of each type I wanted!

Oh, very diplomatic, indeed.

 

[Hurkyl]

You forgot your old avatar? You lost it during one of the upgrades, it was the one before this one.

Oh yes, I remember now! I do like the new one a lot better.

 

[Astronuc]

Yeah, I guess communication might just sum things up the best. Most of my concerns are about people just not being upfront and not saying what's on their mind (sex is maybe just the thing that a lot of people seem to have the hardest time talking about). So I guess my advice to anyone who cares will be to not assume anything; if they want to know, just ask. I won't bite (without their permission). Sound good?

Well communication and honesty. In a bilateral/reciprocal relationship, one has to be unafraid to express one's thoughts to the other, and one has to be willing to receive and consider the other's thoughts.

I was thinking (as usual) about the way men and women interact based on your last post - Sex seems to be a big problem for both men and women, probably because so many (most?) parents do not discuss it, and in many or most parents do not even discuss relationships (at least that's what I conclude based on comments from a lot friends and people I meet. IMO that's why we have so many self-help and how-to-do-it books, and Oprah, Dr. Phil, etc.

Sex is a pretty simple proposition. Certain parts of the body generate pleasurable feelings when subject to tactile stimulation, and certain part generate powerful feelings of ecstasy when stimulated. Ideally two partners communicate what they like or dislike and hopefully share some commonality. I think though, many couples put the cart before the horse, and for one partner the sex is more about personal pleasure (in which case the choice of partner is not important) than a shared spiritual experience.

Also, a friend told me not to long ago, that one could summarize the relationship between men and women as "men give love to get sex, and women give sex to get love." I find that to be an abhorrent thought, and it is certainly does not reflect my values nor those of my parents. On the other hand, I have had several male and female friends concur with that view - which I find rather sad.

Perhaps I am just fortunate that I found the woman I did.

Besides being able to share my mind with her, she shares her mind with me. And another equally important part of our relationship is that she wants to be with me (as opposed to someone else), and she wants me to be with her. I suppose she was the first woman to meet all my basic criteria, and I had relationships where I wasn't sure.

I would add to what Greg said, and say that I adore the PF sisters. In addition to the certain charm, playfulness and a nice witty humor, the ladies possesses intelligence, thoughtfulness and intellectual curiosity. As I mentioned elsewhere, if I was not married, PF would be a good starting point for finding a potentially compatible mate (wife in my case).

 

[honestrosewater]

I agree. I sometimes get a little irritated with women though when they are down on themselves. Mostly when I compliment them and they blow it off like I don't really mean it or they don't think they deserve it. But then I see women that think they are god's gift and I realize that I definitely do not want a woman like that.

Do you say anything to them about it? I don't know how or why (probably for the reasons you mentioned), but I realized a few months ago that I had developed that habit of dismissing compliments from men. I didn't even really think much of it until someone said something. And now that I've been working on appreciating compliments, I probably give them more too.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

Do you say anything to them about it? I don't know how or why (probably for the reasons you mentioned), but I realized a few months ago that I had developed that habit of dismissing compliments from men. I didn't even really think much of it until someone said something. And now that I've been working on appreciating compliments, I probably give them more too.

I try to. I used to tell one of my exs that she was beautiful all the time. She would always just roll her eyes at me and tell me that she looked terrible. Then one day she said to me that some guy at her work had complimented her that day, that he tends to do that, and how much she really likes it when she's out or at work and some one compliments her, almost as if she were hinting that I didn't do so. That really depressed me and after that I felt like an idiot when ever I thought to compliment her.

 

[JasonRox]

A lot of girls dismiss them sometimes, almost like they deserve it and/or it's their god given right to get them.

 

[honestrosewater]

And I don't think I ever considered honestrosewater cute & attractive until after this thread.

Ah, this is going to drive me crazy. I need to know what I did! C'mon, think! Think! This info could really come in handy.

So... how much does physical attraction contribute to cuteness for you guys? How important is it in a friendship/relationship? I'm not sure how to explain it myself. (I'll try for the truth, but they're just generalizations; there might be exceptions.) Some things are certainly pretty to look at, e.g. Michelangelo's David, but they're pretty to look at in the same way that, say, the sky, cars, whatever are pretty to look at -- there's no attraction involved. (Same goes for sound, smell, taste, touch.)
Until I know a person, I think I look at them the same way I look at anything else. It's as I get to know them that physical attraction (or repulsion) develops, and I just connect their looks with other things that I find attractive, like character, sense of humor, habits, and such. Does that make sense? I think it's actually true too. Of course, when someone you find attractive also manages to be what is naturally delightful to look at, hear, smell, taste, touch, well, that's even better. I think looking at bodies as means of communicating with brains is nice too.

 

[The_Professional]

I try to. I used to tell one of my exs that she was beautiful all the time. She would always just roll her eyes at me and tell me that she looked terrible. Then one day she said to me that some guy at her work had complimented her that day, that he tends to do that, and how much she really likes it when she's out or at work and some one compliments her, almost as if she were hinting that I didn't do so.

truthfully, it sounds to me that she likes getting compliments from this guy at work. that's what I am getting.

That really depressed me and after that I felt like an idiot when ever I thought to compliment her.

i'm really sorry to hear, there's a lot of great gals out there.

 

[honestrosewater]

Also, a friend told me not to long ago, that one could summarize the relationship between men and women as "men give love to get sex, and women give sex to get love." I find that to be an abhorrent thought, and it is certainly does not reflect my values nor those of my parents. On the other hand, I have had several male and female friends concur with that view - which I find rather sad.

Ditto. I mean, I guess if that's really what makes some people happy, great. I think I'd have a hard time believing that that actually makes anyone happy though.

 

[quantumcarl]

Well, for me, it's nowhere near so clear cut. Sure, Monique is absolutely adorable! But I don't find, say, Evo attractive nor cute. (No offense!) And Gale is cute, I suppose, but I don't find her attractive.
And I don't think I ever considered honestrosewater cute & attractive until after this thread.

For the most part everyone is in plain old black and white. Its a true cutey-pie that can come across as "cute" using only the various combinations of 26 characters and a few animated gifs. Bravo.

But, what's wrong with men? I seem to have missed the answer. Is it all men, just gay cowboys, only construction workers, the troops!, what men are we talking about?

My philosophy is that we are all people. Some men are more woman than some women... some women are more men that some men... so... what gives?

 

[loseyourname]

Well, for me, it's nowhere near so clear cut. Sure, Monique is absolutely adorable! But I don't find, say, Evo attractive nor cute. (No offense!) And Gale is cute, I suppose, but I don't find her attractive.

I have to say that Monique is the only one on this forum that I would even think to call "cute." Although Moonbear's no-nonsense handling of mud-covered pigs and other farm animals is pretty damn sexy, for whatever reason.

And I don't think I ever considered honestrosewater cute & attractive until after this thread.

This might sound offensive at first, but Rachel here falls into the category of otherwise attractive but not girlfriend material prima facie. She seems great, but frankly her hangups and insecurities and all that scare me away. I've had too many mental cases and am extremely wary at this point. I guess my constructive point here is that I think it is actually a very good idea for her to be taking things as she is; just start out as friends and if things advance from there, so be it. Provided she isn't physically repulsive or anything (I doubt it, but hey, I've never seen her), I'd probably want her, but my better senses would tell me to hold off until she had proven herself. Maybe it's best that she take the same approach to guys, because I get the impression that it'll take a rather rare breed to really have any shot with her. Not that she strikes me as difficult or anything, but she doesn't seem very easily impressed, and she's obviously not one of those women that'll just cling to whatever the wind blows in. Go ahead and be picky.

What the hell kind of guys are in Tampa, anyway? Is that in a decent part of Florida, or is it redneck territory?

 

[franznietzsche]

I try to. I used to tell one of my exs that she was beautiful all the time. She would always just roll her eyes at me and tell me that she looked terrible. Then one day she said to me that some guy at her work had complimented her that day, that he tends to do that, and how much she really likes it when she's out or at work and some one compliments her, almost as if she were hinting that I didn't do so. That really depressed me and after that I felt like an idiot when ever I thought to compliment her.

Its not the compliments that she likes, its the feeling of status. Compliments are irrelevant, and pointless. There are far better ways to demonstrate respect and affection that don't make you come out losing like a nice guy.

 

[franznietzsche]

I realized a few months ago that I had developed that habit of dismissing compliments from men. I didn't even really think much of it until someone said something.

This is because compliments are cheap words. It takes very little effort to say something nice about a person (unless you actually have a modicum of honor and honesty). It is much, much harder to actually mean it usually. Cheap words are not an effective way of showing anything.

 

[Lisa!]

I still can't understand something! What do you mean when you say someone's cute? Is it more about appearance or peronality and attitude?