Navigating the Tensions in Ukraine: A Scientific Perspective

[PeroK]

European industry depends on Russian energy.

Then Putin has that power over us in any case.

You would do very severe economic damage to Europe which might be OK w/ you but is not likely to be OK with the average European or their governments.

Possibly. But, if Putin has put nuclear war on the table, then we should have that option on the table.

 

[artis]

Then Putin has that power over us in any case.

And that is exactly what some experts have said since the 2000's.

Can't be done. For years much of Europe has been hooked on Russian energy so they can pretend the are "Green" without having to go nuclear.

Or worse yet, closing down existing nuclear that is still in perfect order and capable of working.
Germany is especially compromised with regards to energy import
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_in_Germany

https://www.dw.com/en/germany-warns-against-ban-on-energy-imports-from-russia/a-61002737

 

[Astronuc]

Purchase of energy and other commodities from Russia finances Putin's military buildup, which is interesting considering Putin would like to severely diminish the West (aka US and EU).

Putin’s Thousand-Year War
The reasons for his anti-Western enmity stretch back over Russia’s entire history—and they will be with us for a long time.

https://foreignpolicy.com/2022/03/12/putins-thousand-year-war/

Certainly, Putin is the main problem at the moment, but he's not the only one. There appear to be many who sympathize with his notions.

 

[PeroK]

Yes, it would be less than Ukraine is paying but it is NOT just "sitting in the cold for a bit". European industry depends on Russian energy. You would do very severe economic damage to Europe which might be OK w/ you but is not likely to be OK with the average European or their governments.

In truth you are probably right. On the other hand, all the countries of Eastern Europe face the risk of Russian occupation if Putin cannot be stopped. Even if NATO fights on their behalf, their countries will still be turned into war zones.

I hope I'm wrong, but doing without Russian energy at this stage might eventually seem like a minor sacrifice compared the calamity that may befall them.

 

[phinds]

In truth you are probably right. On the other hand, all the countries of Eastern Europe face the risk of Russian occupation if Putin cannot be stopped. Even if NATO fights on their behalf, their countries will still be turned into war zones.

I hope I'm wrong, but doing without Russian energy at this stage might eventually seem like a minor sacrifice compared the calamity that may befall them.

I agree w/ you but faced with short term hardship we humans don't seem to do well planning for future disasters. Kicking the can down the road is endemic to our American politicians and I can't see any reason to expect anything different from European ones.

 

[fresh_42]

 

[fresh_42]

Nazis finally found!

 

[DennisN]

An interesting interview with Russian-American journalist Masha Gessen:

Gessen: It’s A Matter Of Survival For Russians To Buy Into State TV Propaganda (MSNBC, Mar 19, 2022)

Vladimir Putin held a pro-war rally in Moscow Friday morning, feeding the Kremlin’s propaganda machine, as Russians continue to remain uninformed about their nation’s invasion of Ukraine. "It's a totalitarian society at this point,” journalist Masha Gessen explains to Joy Reid. “It is a matter of survival for Russians to buy into the picture of the universe that state television is broadcasting to them."



I've seen a long, in-depth, interview with Masha Gessen a couple of days ago which I also thought was very interesting:

The Putin Files: Masha Gessen (FrontLine PBS, Oct 26, 2017)

And another long interview which I've seen and found interesting was this one:

Putin's Road to War: Julia Ioffe (interview) (FrontLine PBS, Mar 10, 2022)

There are a number of FrontLine PBS interviews with different persons available on youtube on these topics. If anyone is interested, go to youtube and search for "The Putin Files" and "Putin's road to war".

 

[artis]

I couldn't decide whether to write this but finally decided to do so. Again before I write anything let me just say once more that "No, I don't excuse Russia's aggression with any of this and it's not my personal opinion"
So please read it as simple history.

I think there is a problem, arguably the only one that Russia can truly use (also twist and spin out of proportion) in their information war to excuse their actions. Now in order to not make this very lengthy let me just say that historically within the former USSR republics there was a non negligible fraction of people who had antisemitic and Nazi thinking. When I grew up I too was under the impression that my country as well as other eastern European countries have been only victims of both Russian and German imperialism, and that in itself is true, but there is a side they don't like to teach here in schools that much and it is the fact that during the German occupation in WW2 there were sizeable militias and units that voluntarily joined the Nazi effort to exterminate Jews and other minorities. But they were not just spontaneous action-reaction forces but instead a historical sentiment within certain groups in these regions that finally "surfaced" when the right circumstances were met.

In fact many historians argue that the German execution of Jews both within the Baltics as well as in Ukraine could have only been so successful because of considerable "local help". This is also confirmed by the holocaust survivor memories.
I myself started researching more of this when I befriended some older Jews who had lived here all their life.
Among other sources, I read this book "I survived Rumbuli" written by one local woman who survived in the mass extermination of the Riga ghetto by Nazi forces with local help, about 27 000 Jews including children and elders were shot and buried in a mass grave near the capital of Latvia - Riga.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frida_Michelson
https://www.amazon.com/dp/0896040305/?tag=pfamazon01-20

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riga_Ghetto

Probably one of the most shameful parts of our national history is know internationally as the "Arajs Kommando" Named after it's founder and main man "Viktors Arājs".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arajs_Kommando

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust_in_Latvia

not everyone participated directly while holding a gun to someone's head, but many more did collaborate indirectly by snitching on Jewish hideouts, giving money and materials to the nationalistic teams of SS helpers who directly sought out and shot Jews. This is all beautifully written down by the woman who wrote the memoirs to which i linked in this post.

So why am I writing this, and what has it to do with Ukraine?
Two fold, first this fate is shared similarly also in Ukraine and secondly this is the only real "issue" which Russia can use to excuse their war, so for us to understand better what exactly they base their claims off let me show you.

Let's start with some of the most known examples.
There was a Ukrainian nationalist Stepan Bandera during the times leading up to WW2 , Russian forces call Ukrainian fighters "Banderovites" I hope you will soon understand why.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stepan_Bandera

Bandera remains a highly controversial figure in Ukraine,[22][23][24] with some Ukrainians hailing him as a liberator who fought against the Soviet, Polish and Nazi states while trying to establish an independent Ukraine, while other Ukrainians as well as Poland and Russia condemn him as a fascist[25] and a war criminal[26] who was, together with his followers, largely responsible for the massacres of Polish civilians[27] and partially for the Holocaust in Ukraine

So what Ukraine did , which I think was a mistake on their behalf, their previous president Viktor Yushchenko gave Stepan Bandera a posthumous award and declared Bandera a hero.
https://www.rferl.org/a/Yushchenko_...troversial_Ukrainian_Nationalist/1937123.html

The reason I think this was a huge mistake and played right into the hands of Moscow is because Bandera had a tainted past, yes I believe he fought with Ukraine in mind and against Soviets and Germans but from historical sources we know his allegiances were more towards nationalism in the German Nazi sense.
This would be similar if we here in Latvia decided to award and title a hero one of our own war criminals who collaborated with the Nazi regime to exterminate Jews.
The next president revoked the award.
https://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/13/world/europe/13ukraine.html

To make matters worse, Ukraine has official monuments to Stepan Bandera, one you can google is located in the city that is now the last resort for refugees - Lviv.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/ukrai...borator-bans-book-critical-of-pogroms-leader/Now another mistake I think is to allow a far right extremist paramilitary force known as the "Azov battalion" to fight along side Ukraine's army and national guard forces. Even more so because the Azov fighters are not that many as compared to the army in general and wouldn't be a decisive factor for either losing or winning.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Battalion

Besides their Nazi like insignia, here are just a few excerpts from what can be labeled as Nazi sympathizing and "crazy talk" I suggest these links for reading their are rather telling.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/10/azov-far-right-fighters-ukraine-neo-nazis

"I have nothing against Russian nationalists, or a great Russia," said Dmitry, as we sped through the dark Mariupol night in a pickup truck, a machine gunner positioned in the back. "But Putin's not even a Russian. Putin's a Jew."

https://www.dw.com/en/the-azov-battalion-extremists-defending-mariupol/a-61151151

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/3/1/who-are-the-azov-regiment

A few months after recapturing the strategic port city of Mariupol from the Russian-backed separatists, the unit was officially integrated into the National Guard of Ukraine on November 12, 2014, and exacted high praise from then-President Petro Poroshenko.“These are our best warriors,” he said at an awards ceremony in 2014. “Our best volunteers.”

The unit was led by Andriy Biletsky, who served as the the leader of both the Patriot of Ukraine (founded in 2005) and the SNA (founded in 2008). The SNA is known to have carried out attacks on minority groups in Ukraine.
In 2010, Biletsky said Ukraine’s national purpose was to “lead the white races of the world in a final crusade … against Semite-led Untermenschen [inferior races]”.Biletsky was elected to parliament in 2014. He left Azov as elected officials cannot be in the military or police force. He remained an MP until 2019.

“Ukraine is the world’s only nation to have a neo-Nazi formation in its armed forces,” a correspondent for the US-based magazine, the Nation, wrote in 2019.

In June 2015, both Canada and the United States announced that their own forces will not support or train the Azov regiment, citing its neo-Nazi connections. In October 2019, 40 members of the US Congress led by Representative Max Rose signed a letter unsuccessfully calling for the US State Department to designate Azov as a “foreign terrorist organisation” (FTO)

Here is a video of one of the Azov Children's camps, see if you can spot some of the tattoos like "white pride"
I could go on and on and on about this both from a historical perspective as well as current one, there is plenty of subject matter here. All I can say is I think the Ukrainians have themselves made some bad decisions and mistakes that have played perfectly into the propaganda of Kremlin about Nazi supporters in Ukraine.
Truth be told Ukraine is the only known European country to have an officially recognized militia made up of Nazi supporters that fights along side their national army.

Even currently I can understand the anger in Ukrainian fighters against the aggressor forces but some of their remarks are I think needlessly inflammatory. Like the recent video of Azov battalion fighters greasing their AK bullets in pig fat to shoot Chechen fighters. The idea here is simple, most Chechens are Muslims and Muslims consider pigs unclean.


Meanwhile the deputy mayor of Dnipro said that dead Chechen fighters will be put into pig skins and buried like that
https://odessa-journal.com/ukraine-prepared-a-surprise-for-kadyrovites/Now do I excuse Russian war and aggression with this in any way? No I don't and nobody could, apart from Putin of course. And Russia has plenty of supporters for their own war criminals and terrorists like Stalin and his gang. All I'm saying is that Ukraine could have done better which would give even less material for Moscow to use.
To finish off let me give you an interesting bit of history from the Baltics. Among the many nationalistic organizations in pre WW2 Latvia there was one that was the most popular. It was called the "Thundercross"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pērkonkrusts

Some followers tried to resurrect the organization after the collapse of the USSR in the 90's and in 1997 made an explosive with which they tried to blow up a local WW2 monument that symbolized the fallen soldiers of Soviet Union from WW2.
Thankfully our security organizations took care of them and Russia cannot say that we harbor Neo Nazi's, this also gives us greater leverage to call out Russian attacks as nothing but Russian imperialist aggression because we have eliminated largely any opportunity for Russia to claim that we support Nazi ideology. Ukraine should have done the same it would have benefit them.Some interesting takes on Azov






You can hear the women in the end saying that one of the reasons some support these movements are because even after 2014 Maidan ousting of the pro Russian government corruption is still large.

And one other important aspect to mention for why such private militias can arise is that Ukraine before the current events and especially before 2014 had a rather weak military and needed extra support to fight against the Russian separatists
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armed_Forces_of_Ukraine

Because of the Russian military intervention in Ukraine in 2014, the president commissioned the governors of oblasts of Ukraine to create volunteer units under the government's Territorial Defense Forces. Initially, these units received minimal funding from regional budgets and mostly relied on donations. In November 2014, most of the territorial defense battalions were integrated into the Ukrainian Ground Forces

Sure enough such a climate would be perfect for the birth of extremist organizations in any country so that is partly to blame.

 

[Frabjous]

Ukraine’s ”sin” was seeking stronger relations with the West. Even if it had followed your suggestions, Putin would have found another excuse.

 

[artis]

Ukraine’s ”sin” was seeking stronger relations with West. Even if it had followed your suggestions, Putin would have found another excuse.

Yes fundamentally I also believe Russia's war is based on geopolitical and socioeconomic ambitions.
But please don't take my post out of context because I never claim that the far right action in Ukraine is to blame and that Kremlin wouldn't have invaded anyway, I am simply trying to bring a multiple sided approach to understanding each side and the claims made.
My point was to show what Kremlin uses to base their "denazification" claims upon

 

[Frabjous]

Yes fundamentally I also believe Russia's war is based on geopolitical and socioeconomic ambitions.
But please don't take my post out of context because I never claim that the far right action in Ukraine is to blame and that Kremlin wouldn't have invaded anyway, I am simply trying to bring a multiple sided approach to understanding each side and the claims made.
My point was to show what Kremlin uses to base their "denazification" claims upon

To what end? Nazi’s are not why Putin invaded, so you are merely providing fuel to his false narrative. An openly Nazi Ukraine that was seeking stronger relations with Russia would not have been invaded.

 

[artis]

To what end? Nazi’s are not why Putin invaded, so you are merely providing fuel to his false narrative. An openly Nazi Ukraine that was seeking stronger relations with Russia would not have been invaded.

I am not providing any fuel to anything unless of course that is how you would like to think of it.
I explicitly stated that I am not writing my own opinion. I did provide a lot of official sources like Time,the Guardian, BBC, Al jazeera and historical accounts which are all factual and accurate history.
This is an intellectual discussion and I'm merely explaining a sensitive topic which is nevertheless true, let's not make any of this personal. I understand perfectly well that this is a historically "hot topic" but I don't think there is anything wrong with knowing it.

 

[Frabjous]

I am not providing any fuel to anything unless of course that is how you would like to think of it.
I explicitly stated that I am not writing my own opinion. I did provide a lot of official sources like Time,the Guardian, BBC, Al jazeera and historical accounts which are all factual and accurate history.
This is an intellectual discussion and I'm merely explaining a sensitive topic which is nevertheless true, let's not make any of this personal. I understand perfectly well that this is a historically "hot topic" but I don't think there is anything wrong with knowing it.

You agree that Ukranian Nazi’s are not the reason for the invasion.

Yes fundamentally I also believe Russia's war is based on geopolitical and socioeconomic ambitions

I do not understand why you cannot see that discussing Putin’s false narratives is in his interest. Their discussion gives them credence. This would not happen in a perfect world, but we have to accept that we do not live in one.

 

[artis]

I do not understand why you cannot see that discussing Putin’s false narratives is in his interest. The discussion gives them credence. This would not happen in a perfect world, but we have to accept that we do not live in one.

So just because a dictator uses certain historical and current facts to spin his own narrative to make an excuse for a bloody war , means I cannot discuss these facts anymore is that your point?

So if Putin tomorrow used holocaust as an excuse to invade Germany , would I then be forbidden to talk about holocaust and should rather shut up out of worries of giving him credence?
I believe in facts and truth and being able to freely talk them with anyone irrespective of whether some political leader or murderer is using them for his own benefit.

I on the other hand think it is exactly this fear of speaking truthfully that is partly killing some old democracies around the world, if we put emotions and narratives over truth then we are doomed to fail is what I think.
I condemn Russia's actions as much as the next guy here and they have a poor excuse for them, but I also condemn any militias supporting Nazi ideology irrespective of what their goal for fighting is.

 

[Haborix]

I'm not sure it is correct to say discussing Putin's false narratives is in his interest. Putin has an understanding of history, however twisted, from which he spins out a rationale. Wouldn't it be better to recognize that history and show that Putin's rationale is an extreme and unfounded extrapolation? Imagine you were someone within Russia who had heard Putin's rationale and you looked at the discussion in the West and it was completely silent. I think in those scenarios people draw inferences against the silent party. Anyway, the history @artis provided might suggest the ways in which to combat the rationale of Putin, even if his rationale is only a pretext.

 

[Frabjous]

So just because a dictator uses certain historical and current facts to spin his own narrative to make an excuse for a bloody war , means I cannot discuss these facts anymore is that your point?

So if Putin tomorrow used holocaust as an excuse to invade Germany , would I then be forbidden to talk about holocaust and should rather shut up out of worries of giving him credence?
I believe in facts and truth and being able to freely talk them with anyone irrespective of whether some political leader or murderer is using them for his own benefit.

I on the other hand think it is exactly this fear of speaking truthfully that is partly killing some old democracies around the world, if we put emotions and narratives over truth then we are doomed to fail is what I think.
I condemn Russia's actions as much as the next guy here and they have a poor excuse for them, but I also condemn any militias supporting Nazi ideology irrespective of what their goal for fighting is.

Where did I say that you cannot say what you want? All I said is that your choice of topics benefits Putin. Speaking truthfully means accepting the consequences of your words, and in this case means that I question your wisdom.

 

[artis]

Where did I say that you cannot say what you want? All I said is that your choice of topics benefits Putin. Speaking truthfully means accepting the consequences of your words, and in this case means that I question your wisdom.

Ok I accept your critique. I do doubt that a thread on PF will or can change a war between Russia and Ukraine.
And everybody already understands that this war is not about Nazi ideology.
I simply pointed out the fact that even though Putin lies , there is some truth mixed in as well.

As for consequences , I don't think I'm the one who should have them, instead the people who have made less then ideal decisions that have contributed to this conflict. But I get it as I said it's a hot potato nobody likes to see and therefore whoever dares to speak about it gets "labeled".

 

[Klystron]

This morning Monday 21 Mar 2022 Reuters updated articles on NATO defenses against invasion.

https://www.reuters.com/world/europ...raine-nato-looks-its-weakest-link-2022-03-21/

Baltic countries figure prominently in the calculus, particularly Latvia.

Ukraine's President Volodymyr Zelinskiy has warned that the Baltic states will be Russia's next target. The Baltic Sea is a large and busy shipping market for containers and other cargo, connecting Sweden, Finland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and Russia with the rest of the world.

Reuters also referenced NATO partner Germany's 'ageing Tornado' fleet, not in the sense as toothless but as less able to deploy across Europe as rapidly as newer airframes.

Soon after Russia's invasion, Berlin announced it would buy 35 Lockheed Martin F-35 fighter jets from the United States to replace its ageing Tornado fleet.

NATO allies, especially US and UK, traditionally respond slowly at wars' beginning, but strengthen when threatened.

NATO allies have also moved five aircraft carriers into European waters, in Norway and the Mediterranean, increased the number of warplanes in the air in NATO airspace and more than doubled the size of the combat units in the Baltics and Poland. Host nation forces number some 290,000 in the region, but mainly under national control.

 

[neilparker62]

I'm not sure it is correct to say discussing Putin's false narratives is in his interest. Putin has an understanding of history, however twisted, from which he spins out a rationale. Wouldn't it be better to recognize that history and show that Putin's rationale is an extreme and unfounded extrapolation? Imagine you were someone within Russia who had heard Putin's rationale and you looked at the discussion in the West and it was completely silent. I think in those scenarios people draw inferences against the silent party. Anyway, the history @artis provided might suggest the ways in which to combat the rationale of Putin, even if his rationale is only a pretext.

I fully understand the sentiment that this historical information feeds into Mr Putin's narrative and if he seriously wanted us to believe him, why the ongoing indiscriminate attacks on civilian targets ? That said we can't hope to find resolution to as intractable a problem as this without all the necessary background information however unpalatable it may be.

On another tack altogether, I would call for a meeting between the respective First Ladies of Ukraine and Russia - albeit former First Lady in the case of Mr Putin. Surely good sense and shared family values can prevail against the current lunacy ?!

 

[DennisN]

This morning Monday 21 Mar 2022 Reuters updated articles on NATO defenses against invasion.

https://www.reuters.com/world/europ...raine-nato-looks-its-weakest-link-2022-03-21/

Interesting read.

Sweden recently got a friendly visit by a US ship after a pre-planned (as far as I know) joint naval exercise.

Regarding Germany, I don't know their current military capabilities (as I am normally not very interested in military things). But I know that Germany is an economic powerhouse which should not be underestimated in the long run.

Same thing with the UK (that is, I don't know their current military capabilities). The UK Royal Navy was once (and for a long time) legendary, but I don't know the current status. I think the UK Royal Navy has been down-sized over the years.

 

[Frabjous]

Regarding Germany, I don't know their current military capabilities (as I am normally not very interested in military things). But I know that Germany is an economic powerhouse which should not be underestimated in the long run.

Even if Putin’s invasion of Ukraine turns out to be a victory for him, I am unsure if Russian history books will be kind to him in the event that Germany continues on its current rearmament path that he put them upon.

 

[fresh_42]

Regarding Germany, I don't know their current military capabilities (as I am normally not very interested in military things).

So are Germans. The military wasn't a top priority in the last decades. There simply haven't been any threats and the last thing we want is to get involved in another war. The budgets have been accordingly. Germans in Alsace? Sure. For dinner! Germans in Poland? The weekend bazaars are legendary. And do not forget to fuel your car. Danes in Germany? No problem. Allow Danish as an official language, give them a political voice and everything is fine. Former territories? Who cares? You can visit them or even live there whenever you want. No need for military "solutions".

It works astonishingly well if you visit people unarmed. It is so much better. Just let people live their lives and establish tourism!

It is a shame that one or two nutcases can change these agreements so easily.

 

[artis]

So are Germans. The military wasn't a top priority in the last decades. There simply haven't been any threats and the last thing we want is to get involved in another war. The budgets have been accordingly. Germans in Alsace? Sure. For dinner! Germans in Poland? The weekend bazaars are legendary. And do not forget to fuel your car. Danes in Germany? No problem. Allow Danish as an official language, give them a political voice and everything is fine. Former territories? Who cares? You can visit them or even live there whenever you want. No need for military "solutions".

It works astonishingly well if you visit people unarmed. It is so much better. Just let people live their lives and establish tourism!

It is a shame that one or two nutcases can change these agreements so easily.

Sorry if I misunderstand you but are you hinting that Germany having a larger, stronger military could be somehow detrimental to Germany itself?
It seems to me that European union getting more armed and ready for any outside danger is not a bad thing as long as we keep the same level of openness within EU itself

 

[Astronuc]

Sorry if I misunderstand you but are you hinting that Germany having a larger, stronger military could be somehow detrimental to Germany itself?

I don't believe that is the point. However, there is an economic cost associated with maintaining armed forces (army, navy and air force), as well as some nervousness on the part of neighboring nations given the history of the last century.

t seems to me that European union getting more armed and ready for any outside danger is not a bad thing as long as we keep the same level of openness within EU itself

Well, in theory, the EU and UN were about mitigating the threat of what just happened in Ukraine. I'd have to say, it's not working.

One may consider the rise of far-right (authoritarian) and nationalist movements in various countries. Some populists would like to have and exert more control over national populations and populations of other nations/regions.

 

[fresh_42]

Sorry if I misunderstand you but are you hinting that Germany having a larger, stronger military could be somehow detrimental to Germany itself?
It seems to me that European union getting more armed and ready for any outside danger is not a bad thing as long as we keep the same level of openness within EU itself

What do you mean by detrimental? Military budgets are wasted money. There are cheaper and better solutions than any military conflict. We should focus on those paths rather than arms. E.g. Ukraine and Russia could have been perfect neighbors, regardless of whether Ukraine is in the EU or even NATO. So what?

Thinking in military setups might historically be justified, however, it is not reasonable and I think mankind should try to overcome it. Europe was on a good way before Putin remembered that he is an educated Stalinist and Crimea desired territory for Russia since 1853.

I advocate visits, student exchange programs, and tourism whenever it is possible. People who know each other are less likely to fight against each other. Russia is obviously our enemy now, but it is impossible for me personally to consider Russians as enemies.

 

[Frabjous]

it is impossible for me personally to consider Russians as enemies.

Speaking in general, the longer the separation, the easier it is for them to become the “other,” and this time there is less respect on both sides.

 

[Astronuc]

Ukraine and Russia could have been perfect neighbors, regardless of whether Ukraine is in the EU or even NATO. So what?

Certainly, Ukraine was on its way to being a good, if not perfect neighbor, and certainly many Russians visit the EU regular, and some prefer to remain in EU.

However, rather than being a "democracy that failed, Russia is an authoritarian militaristic state that is succeeding," to paraphrase a line from the 2015 documentary on Putin and Russia.I have heard news in the last two days, that 80% of housing in Mariupol has been destroyed, and many civilians have been 'removed' by the Russian forces. Now Putin wants the Donbas and the region of Ukraine along the coast to Crimea, which has been a concerned since 2014. It would appear that if he can't take all of Ukraine, he will try to take Eastern Ukraine, east of Dnipro River, and install a Russian-friendly government in Kyiv. The rest of Ukraine will be under constant threat until Russia takes all of it - if Putin is allowed.

 

[phinds]

On another tack altogether, I would call for a meeting between the respective First Ladies of Ukraine and Russia - albeit former First Lady in the case of Mr Putin. Surely good sense and shared family values can prevail against the current lunacy ?!

You actually believe that Putin would listen to his ex-wife? What optimism. Totally unfounded in my opinion.

 

[pinball1970]

Same thing with the UK (that is, I don't know their current military capabilities). The UK Royal Navy was once (and for a long time) legendary, but I don't know the current status. I think the UK Royal Navy has been down-sized over the years.

The UK has 217,000 members of the armed forces and we have a lot of kit (I read so far on wiki and stopped, I don’t know the terms/capability)

A lot less than many countries but equipment and tech support/intelligence I imagine would be high in terms of global capability.

Take aways are we have 200 fighter jets, some of which have probably had their March 2022 decommissioning put on hold.

About 12 subs 6 of which have nuclear capability each carrying up to 40 warheads (I understand that part)

Depressing stuff, if we have to use any of that we have probably already passed the point of no return.

 

[Astronuc]

Ukraine rejects Russian demand to surrender Mariupol; Kyiv shopping center destroyed: Live updates​

https://news.yahoo.com/russias-war-displaced-10m-ukrainians-070424245.html

So the Russian forces are targeting civilians.

Russia's invasion of Ukraine has displaced one quarter of the Ukrainian population (~11 million people).Meanwhile, a sliver of hope in Russia.
https://news.yahoo.com/marina-ovsyannikova-protest-152226063.html

Russian journalist Marina Ovsyannikova's decision to publicly protest against her country's invasion of Ukraine didn't come easy, she recalled in an ABC News interview released Sunday.

"As soon as the war began, I could not eat. I could not sleep," Ovsyannikova said in Russian, according to ABC's translation.

Ovsyannikova, an employee of the state-run Channel One, said she contemplated going to a street protest against the war, but the prospect of spending years in jail convinced her to make a more public statement.

 

[fresh_42]

Speaking in general, the longer the separation, the easier it is for them to become the “other,” and this time there is less respect on both sides.

I think it is far more a cultural thing. Islamic (young and male, Muslim) terrorists freak me out, but not Russian babushkas (old and female, Christian).

 

[Frabjous]

I think it is far more a cultural thing. Islamic (young and male, Muslim) terrorists freak me out, but not Russian babushkas (old and female, Christian).

You are making my point. Right now you see Russian babushkas, but as the invasion continues, you will begin to see blood-stained Russian soldiers and police.

 

[DennisN]

David Beckham (famous English football/soccer player) helps out:

David Beckham hands Instagram account to Ukrainian doctor (BBC, 21st March 2022)

Former England captain David Beckham handed control of his Instagram account to a Ukrainian doctor in the city of Kharkiv on Sunday.

[...]

Beckham, 46, has more than 71 million followers on Instagram.

The former Manchester United and Real Madrid star said he wanted to highlight the "amazing work Iryna and health workers like her are doing to save lives in Ukraine".

[...]

[...]

Beckham also encouraged his followers to donate to Unicef, a UN aid agency for which he serves as an ambassador.

He and wife Victoria, who was a singer with the Spice Girls, are reported to have donated £1million to help fund the organisation's work in Ukraine.

I tip my hat to Beckham and Victoria. A very nice move.

 

[artis]

https://edition.cnn.com/2022/03/20/europe/russia-ukraine-junkyard-weapons-intl-hnk/index.html