What do girls/women look for in men?

[matthew baird]

Actually I have been in denial about the fact that I don't exist for quite some time now...oh and I agree with Arildno, women desire things they cannot have sooo bad

 

[Volumunox]

so Evo... how many # are there ? lol

New ones keep popping up it seems ;)

 

[Evo]

so Evo... how many # are there ? lol

New ones keep popping up it seems ;)

Actually, on second thought, if the man had poor taste in women, he wouldn't fall into my "best men" category, neither would "emotionally damaged". Ok so the revised list is -

1) Unavailable

2) Gay

3) Don't exist

Unavailable could include "emotionally unavailable", hmmmmm, I'll need to think about that.

 

[matthew baird]

To sum it all up: Women generally don't know what they want, and even the ones that do choose to only see what they cannot have. Exactly what they want could be right under their nose but they choose to ignore it, say it is too good to be true, or say it doesn't exist...

 

[Evo]

To sum it all up: Women generally don't know what they want, and even the ones that do choose to only see what they cannot have. Exactly what they want could be right under their nose but they choose to ignore it, say it is too good to be true, or say it doesn't exist...

Hmmmpf

 

[NateTG]

Hmmmpf

Don't worry, that's what you wanted to see, you just don't know it. ;)

 

[JasonRox]

then he turned to the woman and struck up a delightful conversation with her. she was clearly intelligent and interesting, but i hadn't noticed.

There is a good reason why that happened.

If I were interested in a girl, and she sat there talking to some other guy, I would approach and talk to the guy first. Then work my way to the girl. It works.

 

[matthew baird]

Hmmmpf

Thats all you have to say??!??! Please correct me if I'm wrong...

Don't worry, that's what you wanted to see, you just don't know it. ;)

^^see, Nate gets it^^

 

[twisting_edge]

In the end, their "obvious signs" are obvious, so I don't see where twisting_edge is getting all this.

Example: I'd say I've witnessed "obvious signs" in four women in the past year. Three of them turned out to be married and the fourth I don't know.

Care to tell me precisely what was so "obvious" about those signs? I can in fact tell a clear come on when presented with one. If ti was obvious enough for even me to notice, there can be little doubt.

Of course, if you seriously believe half of them would like to cheat on their husbands, then I guess those signs were exactly what they appeared to be. Unfortunately, I don't like being in that role.

[edited to add] No, the married bit wasn't just a polite excuse on their part for me misinterpreting their signals: in two cases I overheard mention of a husband in the present tense in a later conversation (not with me), the third time I asked someone who knew her well. His response? "She very married, and I don't know why she's been behaving that way, but I can certainly see where you're coming from."

 

[Moonbear]

If I were interested in a girl, and she sat there talking to some other guy, I would approach and talk to the guy first. Then work my way to the girl. It works.

Now why can't more guys like you live around here? I often wind up going out with groups of guys or with mixed groups, and I figure most guys aren't going to talk to a woman in a group with other men because they probably assume she's already with one of them, or are too timid to find out. I just happen to have a lot of guy friends, more so than female friends, or my female friends ask their boyfriends to join us (I have a "more the merrier" attitude to going out). If someone across the room were interested, it seems pretty simple to just strike up a conversation with anyone in the group and it wouldn't take long to find out if the one you're interested in is there "with" someone or not...and if not, then the worst that happens is you're meeting another group of people who you might make friends with.

And for heaven's sake, when you see a guy go up to a woman and start dancing with her, and she's looking at everyone in the room BUT him, PLEASE cut in! If I'm out with a group of other women, usually we'll rescue each other (suddenly we need to all go to the bathroom as a group), but once in a while a creep manages to insert himself into the dance group and keeps coming back no matter how much you keep trying to find another dance partner who's less creepy, and they seem to always scare away the cute, shy guy whose attention you're trying to get.

 

[Moonbear]

oh and I agree with Arildno, women desire things they cannot have sooo bad

Well, of course. If I had it, I wouldn't be desiring it, I'd be happy with having it. Unless I wanted more than one, but I don't. One guy is enough trouble to keep up with...erm...I mean more than enough to keep me satisfied.

 

[twisting_edge]

mr. edge, your post reveals the fear of being (dis)liked by women that makes it hard to get dates. perhaps you are chasing the flashy, superficial types, and ignoring the real women who appreciate you.

Not true: I rarely ever chase women at all. And I distinctly avoid the flashy and glamorous type, since I have been involved with one or two in the past. "High maintenance" is simply not my cup of tea at all.

Once someone can explain all these married women (three of them quite attractive, and one even a bit glamorous) who seem so eager for my attention, perhaps I'll change my attitude on the matter. Until such time, I'm going to continue to assume any "obvious signs" probably aren't.

The most recent instance is a true riot, BTW. I probably ought to stick it in my journal, but I just don't seem to be able to summon quite the degree of ridicule necessary in writing.

 

[Astronuc]

Then you fall into category 4 - you don't exist.

Ouch, that hurt! I think I pulled a muscle, I was laughing so hard.

 

[twisting_edge]

I have NEVER done anything like that. Why are there some men who seek to characterize all women as lying, conniving, dishonest people?

Really, not even when you 13 or so and just figuring out you could get attention that way?

Not even when you were older, when you wanted some guy's attention, but then changed your mind for no particular reason before he even responded?

To say "not even once" is pretty tough. I expect most people have indulged that whim at least once before deciding it wasn't a good idea. I know I have done similar things: at one point I discovered I was able to just walk into a situation, start telling people what to do, and they'd start doing it. It didn't always work, but it sure was fun when it did.

Then everyone grew up. Scratch one game.

I didn't say all women persist in that behavior. Some give it up relatively quickly. Others never seem to ever give it up. I asked the question not as an accusation, but to demonstrate a point: if you ever felt that way, even as a teenager, you might find it easier to believe there are some people that still engage in that sort of behavior later in life.

Case in point: there is a young woman, probably close to twenty years my junior, not more than a year or two out of college, who once got very ticked off because I was pointedly ignoring her while she was posturing (note: there was no one else present, although this was a public space). She always wears tight clothes and has a model's body. It was obviously important to her that people notice. I didn't even count that one among the four "women" I cited in my earlier comment on the matter. Interpret the "obvious signs" for me in this case. I thought they were obvious enough: they read "you're better off ignoring this one."

P.S.: I wouldn't call that one "high maintenance" in the traditional sense, but I'd still avoid the type in any case.

 

[Astronuc]

Once someone can explain all these married women (three of them quite attractive, and one even a bit glamorous) who seem so eager for my attention, perhaps I'll change my attitude on the matter. Until such time, I'm going to continue to assume any "obvious signs" probably aren't.

Depending on their age, it maybe that one or more of these married women still need to feel desired by a single male. The 'obvious signs' might be nothing more than a test to see if the male is responsive. If the male is responsive, test successful, and it concludes with nothing more. On the other hand, some married women will engage in extra-marital relationships, just as some men do.

 

[matthew baird]

but once in a while a creep manages to insert himself into the dance group and keeps coming back no matter how much you keep trying to find another dance partner who's less creepy

ARGH! I really dislike guys like that, in fact, that's one of the reasons I stopped going dancing. I don't know why they cannot get the point, it is VERY obvious when a girl doesn't want to dance with you, what kind of idiot just starts humping the poor gal before he even knows if she is slightly interested. All I wanted to do is dance by myself, but I get stuck rescuing the girls I went with who are getting mobbed by retarded guys...^^Astronuc hit the nail right on the head. Some women that are not receiving the attention they desire will do something to get it.

 

[twisting_edge]

Depending on their age, it maybe that one or more of these married women still need to feel desired by a single male. The 'obvious signs' might be nothing more than a test to see if the male is responsive. If the male is responsive, test successful, and it concludes with nothing more.

That is precisely my take on the matter. It perfectly supports my thesis that these "obvious signs" are anything but. Others here do not seem to have been able to draw that conclusion from their own experience (not yet, at least).

 

[JasonRox]

And for heaven's sake, when you see a guy go up to a woman and start dancing with her, and she's looking at everyone in the room BUT him, PLEASE cut in! If I'm out with a group of other women, usually we'll rescue each other (suddenly we need to all go to the bathroom as a group), but once in a while a creep manages to insert himself into the dance group and keeps coming back no matter how much you keep trying to find another dance partner who's less creepy, and they seem to always scare away the cute, shy guy whose attention you're trying to get.

Haha, I once helped my girlfriend's friend out of a situation like that. It's funny though. Not for her, but like in general.

It's funny to hear guys thinking that going up to dance with them is the way to go. I found that asking girls to dance is SO MUCH better, but 90% of guys disagree.

 

[Astronuc]

That is precisely my take on the matter. It perfectly supports my thesis that these "obvious signs" are anything but. Others here do not seem to have been able to draw that conclusion from their own experience (not yet, at least).

It's a matter of experience. Persons in their late teens or early 20's will not have the same experience as someone in their 30's, 40's, 50's or 60's. Experience takes time and opportunity.

Just before I met my wife, I used to encounter a girl at various parties at the homes of mutual friends, and once at party at her place. She used to come up to me, throw her arms around me, and give me a very passionate kiss (the kind I'd expect from a girlfriend or wife). I had no idea what was on her mind. After the kiss, she used to back off, smile and proceed as if nothing happened (or at least that was my impression). It never made sense to me that she would kiss me, and it was more puzzling because she didn't kiss anyone of the other men, who sometimes stood there looking at me. I figured she was just be very friendly (or she just felt safe with me knowing that I would make a big deal about it), because one her girlfriends told me she had a boyfriend. That's something I didn't want to get involved in, and besides, I wasn't looking anyway.

 

[turbo]

The "obvious signs" are the ones that women cannot control consciously, like flushed cheeks, dilated pupils, nervous mannerisms, etc. If you smile at a woman or tell her that she looks nice today (don't be specific about why, she'll come up with a reason on her own!) and she blushes, glances down a bit (reflexively, not "for effect"), or her pupils dilate, she is exhibiting obvious positive responses, IMO.

The signs that amount to what most people would consider flirting are all conscious acts and those actions can be done for a variety of reasons that make the motivation of the act much less "obvious". Some people seem to flirt for the sake of doing so, or for some approval from the opposite sex. This is the stuff that guys misinterpret and decry as "games" because the rules are established in secret.

 

[Astronuc]

I found that asking girls to dance is SO MUCH better, . . .

and it is a matter of etiquette.

The (90% of) guys who disagree with that are simply wrong.

 

[twisting_edge]

It's a matter of experience. Persons in their late teens or early 20's will not have the same experience as someone in their 30's, 40's, 50's or 60's. Experience takes time and opportunity.

Don't confuse the two instances: one of the married women was 29, the other 33 and the third of unknown age, I'd guess around 35. The one fresh out of college doesn't even count. That one was so transparent it was a complete no-brainer.

 

[Moonbear]

Really, not even when you 13 or so and just figuring out you could get attention that way?

Not even when you were older, when you wanted some guy's attention, but then changed your mind for no particular reason before he even responded?

To say "not even once" is pretty tough.

What part of the word "never" did you not understand? What purpose would it possibly serve to pretend to be interested in someone I wasn't interested in? And why do you question my credibility when I tell you this? If you're just going to assume all women lie for the hell of it, then you're never going to find someone, because you'll always be convincing yourself it's all a lie. It's a pretty self-defeating attitude.

As for your question about married women sending "signs"...I also see a lot of guys hitting on married women who are not interested or "sending signs." Maybe you're mistaking friendliness or confidence as a "sign?" That's usually my take on it, that these women don't have to look, so can just relax while out, and that somehow gets mistaken. Of course, there are married women who are bored with their marriages, and more likely to hang out in bars without their husbands while looking for a little entertainment on the side...just as there are married men who make their wedding rings disappear for a night out (hence my comment about taking your hands out of your pockets...if a guy is keeping his left hand in his pocket all night, I assume he's married and prowling and steer clear, because it's just not worth the hassle).

 

[Moonbear]

The "obvious signs" are the ones that women cannot control consciously, like flushed cheeks, dilated pupils...

Or she's drunk! Hard to identify flushed cheeks or dilated pupils as any sort of sign if you're in a dark bar and she's been drinking.

The signs that amount to what most people would consider flirting are all conscious acts and those actions can be done for a variety of reasons that make the motivation of the act much less "obvious". Some people seem to flirt for the sake of doing so, or for some approval from the opposite sex. This is the stuff that guys misinterpret and decry as "games" because the rules are established in secret.

Some people manage to interpret just plain being friendly as flirting too.

I still prefer just plain asking. Sure, you'll get rejected more than if you stood in a corner alone and saying nothing, but so what? At least you don't miss an opportunity because you're standing in a corner alone saying nothing.

 

[Astronuc]

Don't confuse the two instances: one of the married women was 29, the other 33 and the third of unknown age, I'd guess around 35. The one fresh out of college doesn't even count. That one was so transparent it was a complete no-brainer.

What two instances? With respect to experience, I was reflecting upon one's comment "Others here do not seem to have been able to draw that conclusion from their own experience". Most people on PF are college age, and perhaps do not share one's experience.

I still prefer just plain asking.

Yes, especially when the response is either, Yes or No! It leaves little room for ambiguity.

 

[Moonbear]

Haha, I once helped my girlfriend's friend out of a situation like that. It's funny though. Not for her, but like in general.

Does it ever work? I mean, do they ever just jump in like that and wind up with a date after?

It's funny to hear guys thinking that going up to dance with them is the way to go. I found that asking girls to dance is SO MUCH better, but 90% of guys disagree.

Just keep telling them. Maybe it'll sink in. It just shows respect to ask first. And, dangit, why do they always jump in just as I'm starting to work my way across the room to talk to the cute guy I see looking my way, but who is too shy to make the first move?

 

[Astronuc]

And, dangit, why do they always jump in just as I'm starting to work my way across the room to talk to the cute guy I see looking my way, but who is too shy to make the first move?

Move faster. Maybe apply a rapid arm twist or shot to the celiac plexus to the unwanted intruder - but keep smiling to the cute guy.

 

[Moonbear]

I don't think other women are like this but this is the type of behavior I exhibit when I am attracted to someone. Imagine if you will..

The guy I have a crush on enters the elevator. We are alone. I can't look him in the eye because I am overcome with shyness. Almost paralyzed. We ride in silence to the 6th floor, his stop. Just as he starts to exit, I mutter something in an attempt to make conversation and it comes out like, "shirt...nice" and then, waving goodbye to him, I clumsily spill most of my latte on myself. Then the doors close and I realize complimenting the shirt was rather stupid because he's the UPS guy, and oh, DAMMIT!

If you can't tell, I'm starting to work my way backward through this thread and all the posts I missed along the way. I think that's a pretty common response. It's my initial reaction too, especially if I'm totally caught off-guard by someone really interesting appearing in a place where I'm not thinking about looking. When I talk about going up to a guy and striking up a conversation, just as it is for the guys, it takes a bit of time to muster up the courage. Even when I start the conversation, I spend a lot of time staring at my drink.

Hmm...maybe that's the problem...the guys end up going after our girlfriends who are out with us and are the ones busily pointing at them, laughing (at us, usually), and trying to scope them out for us, while the one who is interested has their back to them, head down, and is turning beet red at our girlfriend's comments. I'm not that bad anymore, but yeah, especially when younger, that might be something to really help the guys out...go for the shy one who ISN'T staring at you...she's the one who caught sight of you and got all week-kneed and speechless and bashful, and the one ogling you and laughing is just the reporter. Could that be where Twisted Edge is getting signs confused? I had somewhat forgotten, because it was at the point I realized that my friends were getting hit on by the guys I was interested in that I started to make an effort to change my approach (and the longer you work at being the one to make the first move, the easier it gets).

 

[Moonbear]

Move faster. Maybe apply a rapid arm twist or shot to the celiac plexus to the unwanted intruder - but keep smiling to the cute guy.

Yeah, that'll endear me to the shy guys. When I'm out, I'm hopelessly nice, which means I don't like to tell someone to bug off if they want to dance with me. I'll always agree to at least one dance before making an excuse to move along somewhere else. But, yeah, if the cute guy I was eyeing up gets cold feet before I get to him, it isn't a very helpful thing.

 

[Astronuc]

But, yeah, if the cute guy I was eyeing up gets cold feet before I get to him, it isn't a very helpful thing.

Or you could just catch his eye, point to him, and yell "YOU! Don't move! I'll be right there!"

 

[twisting_edge]

What part of the word "never" did you not understand? What purpose would it possibly serve to pretend to be interested in someone I wasn't interested in? And why do you question my credibility when I tell you this?

I questioned your credibility for a very simple reason: a lot of people would like to deny a lot of things they did as teenagers. They regard it as having been done by someone else, which in a very real sense it was. You might have simply not considered your teenage years.

As to what purpose it would serve, Astronuc already addressed that issue very nicely: perhaps you'll accept the explanation from him. It is certainly very immature behavior, but (newsflash) everyone was immature once (physiologically, at the very least).

I might point out that I do not hang out in bars, and never have. Each of the four cases happened at work although none of them work for my firm. There're several firms in the building, with a common lunchroom and gardens.

I wrote quite clearly in my last post why I raised the question. I'll repeat it here:

I asked the question not as an accusation, but to demonstrate a point: if you ever felt that way, even as a teenager, you might find it easier to believe there are some people that still engage in that sort of behavior later in life.

Basically, it all comes down to something very simple: "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me." At what point does Charlie Brown become a bigger jerk for continuing to run at the football than Lucy is for continuing to jerk it away?

I am quite aware this is a self-defeating attitude. I am also quite aware that while many guys have the same sorts of difficulties, most do not. Therefore the problem lies with me. You'd probably be surprised at how observant I am of my own behavior.

But the key thing is that so many women say, "Why can't guys just accept they are going to be rejected most of the time and ask us out?" Meanwhile, they almost never put themselves through that same test. I am not fond of hypocrisy.

 

[twisting_edge]

When I talk about going up to a guy and striking up a conversation, just as it is for the guys, it takes a bit of time to muster up the courage. Even when I start the conversation, I spend a lot of time staring at my drink.

You wrote that while I was typing up my last response, evidently (I was interrupted in the middle of it, doing two things at once).

Quick question: what percentage of the guys say no when asked vs. what percentage of the women? Just take a guess: I have no statistics on the matter, so there's no right answer, but if you think a guy is more likely to reject a woman than a woman is to reject a man, then I (and just about everyone else here, I expect) will strongly disagree with you. I'd put the ratio between the rejection rates at more than a order of magnitude.

Granted, the male might decide later it wasn't working: that I think is a more even matter. But as far as the initial contact goes, it's massively uneven. I'd say the hurdle faced by the average male in that regard is a great deal higher than anything any woman will face (provided she has the usual number of limbs, etc.).

 

[Pyrrhus]

Hey Jason, i know what you mean, I've seen that happen. It's all about being yourself, and having a life. Being the same guy that initially attracted her.

 

[Moonbear]

Quick question: what percentage of the guys say no when asked vs. what percentage of the women? Just take a guess: I have no statistics on the matter, so there's no right answer, but if you think a guy is more likely to reject a woman than a woman is to reject a man, then I (and just about everyone else here, I expect) will strongly disagree with you. I'd put the ratio between the rejection rates at more than a order of magnitude.

I can't speak for all guys or all women, only for my own experience on that one. The vast majority of guys I've asked directly have turned me down (I think they all have, except there's one guy I briefly dated and can't recall who asked whom...we were both pretty drunk the night we admitted to a mutual attraction). It doesn't stop me from asking though. I keep hearing guys saying it would be so much easier if women would ask them, and that they'd like it if a woman did the asking, and I figure since I want a guy who's comfortable with me being pretty independent and not exactly playing any sort of "traditional" woman's role, there's nothing wrong with screening them out that way as well (i.e., if a guy was intiailly interested and gets turned off by me doing the asking, it probably wouldn't have worked out in the long-term anyway).

If you think three married women sending you mixed signals is a lot (I still haven't found your original post on that, so I hope I've even gotten the gist of that part of the discussion from all the replies on it), you may or may not be surprised at how many men with wives and/or girlfriends do a lot of "looking" while those wives and/or girlfriends are elsewhere. By "looking," I mean actual looking, not hitting on (or maybe it is, but they shy away once called on it)...it's just hard to tell from across a room if a guy looking your way is just appreciating the female form, or is interested in getting to know you. So, there have been plenty of times when I've wandered over to a guy spending a lot of time looking my way, struck up a conversation, and had him soon after mention the wife or girlfriend he was either waiting on, or due to meet. Now, maybe some didn't really have a wife or girlfriend and just said that to get rid of me, but I figure at least some really are "attached" and were just doing window shopping. Some are just plain not interested (as soon as the reply starts with, "I'm flattered, but..." I know what's coming).

The first time I asked a guy out instead of letting him do the asking, and got rejected, yeah, it has the same effect as a woman rejecting a guy. I felt just plain stupid, and started thinking sure, if a guy is interested in a woman, he'll do the asking, so of course if he didn't ask, then he wasn't interested and it was stupid of me to ask...etc. But, quite frankly, I wasn't doing any better sitting around waiting for them to walk up and ask me either. And, although the vast majority have turned me down, and I haven't found any lasting relationship that way, I have wound up with several friends that way.

I think the hardest part is that once anyone is attracted to someone else, they see a lot of what they want to see. It's pretty easy to think someone is attracted back, even if they aren't. Most of the game-playing is with ourselves. Heck, all those cute, "shy" guys standing on the other side of the dance floor might not be shy at all, they just might not be interested, and are only looking my way because they're laughing at my bad dancing. But, geez, how is anyone to know if you don't just summon up the courage to ask?

 

[JasonRox]

Quick question: what percentage of the guys say no when asked vs. what percentage of the women? Just take a guess: I have no statistics on the matter, so there's no right answer, but if you think a guy is more likely to reject a woman than a woman is to reject a man, then I (and just about everyone else here, I expect) will strongly disagree with you. I'd put the ratio between the rejection rates at more than a order of magnitude.

Um... I disagree totally!

Atleast 3 girls have asked me out since I started seeing my girlfriend. Then atleast another 3-5 have tried to initiate something, but I gave subtle rejections. I've rejected atleast 2-3 just before I started seeing my girlfriend.

Same with my buddy, but he's not seeing anyone. He still rejects a large number of the time.

I don't know who you're asking out, but you're totally going about it the wrong way. I sense that you got rejected plenty of times and that feel like if a girl, any girl, asked you, you would say yes. But that's just YOU.

I used to feel that way, but I don't feel that way at all anymore. Why? Because I wouldn't date any girl, and I project that too. You might think that's rude, but it's reality. I'm worthy, so I want worthy girls. Girls notice this and they are attracted to it. Hence, they try to be worthy and nice... and sometimes make a move because they just want it, like a challenge thing or something. It's the same thing for me too. Like I mentionned in a part thread, I like the challenges. It's fun and it doesn't hurt anyone unless you like act like an idiot. So far, I haven't hurt anyone. I just make sure girls (even guys) enjoy being around me. Therefore, even if I did reject, they don't fall to the ground nor do they hate me. Some even try harder!

I don't know, but I would just step outside and live for a bit because that's not life what you're experiencing.